Alignment of a lowered car.

[Nebone]

I need to get my car aligned after lowering it. I never had uneven tire wear with my sport suspension and plan on it staying that way. Alignment shops say that because it is lowered they can't guarantee it from wearing uneven as their own precaution

Is there something I need to tell them (specks to set it to) before they do the job or should I let them do their thing as they would with any other car.

Thanks

[onemoremile]

Just have them shift the front subframe so the camber is the same on both sides and have them set the toe to zero or 1/16" total toe in all around. Most treadwear is from toe rather than camber.

[Militant-Grunt]

Just have them shift the front subframe so the camber is the same on both sides and have them set the toe to zero or 1/16" total toe in all around. Most treadwear is from toe rather than camber.

^^ Bingo.

Though the problem is that it requires a specialty key. I had the same issue, though my alignment was pretty close to what it was supposed to be. Its off real bad now because of shitty lower control arms.

The dealer would be able to align it perfectly, but pricing is prolly rape, so it might not be worth it.

[Nebone]

The dealer would be able to align it perfectly, but pricing is prolly rape, so it might not be worth it.

I have a friend at a VW dealer. I could ask him to have it performed there by some good techs with right tools. Drivetrain is the same as 4 motion passats pretty much.

[onemoremile]

That special key is just a piece that lets them move the subframe over with the twist of a screw. Nice but not necessary at all.

[iin10ded]

wow this is exactly what i logged in to search for. This has been a thorn in my side since i put the suspension in a year ago [hr sport, grooved bils sport's, all new CA's and spring perches set at max height - 25.5" ground to fender lip]. my car has completely beveled the insides of the front tires off in 6k miles. i would think that's definitely camber wear? i'll post pics later..

also when i had it aligned [twice] the shop shop shows them at like 1.8 or 1.9 each side negative. IIRC 1.3 was the spec limit? the shop says there's no way to adjust it to correct and that tire wear is unavoidable. i didn't know about the subframe shityness, and they didn't bring it up.

the other problem i just noticed is that my upper control arms have hammered divots into my fenders. uh-oh. any BTDT on that? i'm seriously considering going back to stock sport.

[onemoremile]

If the car is riding on the inside edges due to excessive camber it will wear them more quickly but not drastically. If the toe is also out of whack then it will wear them very quickly. If your front tires are parallel like this || then they just roll along. If they point towards or away from each other at all / \ or \ / then they fight each other constantly.

Camber just puts the weight of the car on a smaller area. Toe problems literally scrubs the tires against each other. I've run -2.5 camber on my old autocross Jetta and put 15k miles on a set of soft Azenis without problems. I even sold them used to a guy for use on track days. They had plenty of life left in them.



Why would your upper control arms ever get close to your fenders?

[Nebone]

Now I don't mind paying extra for a GOOD alignment. I refuse to go to TownFair tire or the likes; they could not even align my old 626 which has simple suspension geometry.

I'll take the car to a Audi/VW place for sure. My tires are ~$300 a pop and I feel comfortable on H&R race springs so I won't be going back anytime soon.

[onemoremile]

The full four wheel job at my local Audi dealership is just over $100. Your tires are freakishly expensive. I went from $200+ Pilot Sports to $60 Sumitomo HTR 50Z and couldn't be happier with the marginal compromise and massive price difference.

[Nebone]

They are Toyo T1-S 225/40R18 and retail for that much when they were out. I didn't pay that much at all. They have the curb protector but my wheels being 8.x wide, that is eliminated completely.

I'm trying not to drive much now but really need to make an appointment.

[iin10ded]

i dont get it -how could camber be not such a big deal but toe is? that just means the tires are non-parallel / \ viewed from the front rather than from the top [toe]. correct? i would think that either toe or camber could cause the tires to work against each other as you say - and cause wear.

ill post up my toe specs once i get home. dropped the car off this am for new sneaks - sumi htrz2, on 1more's recommendation [thanks!] on my refinished superlegg's.

as for the CA's - man I have NO IDEA. they have dented the tops of the innder fender's enough to crack the paint on both sides. the little rubber bumpstops are obviously hitting with far too much force. no idea why as the car is not that low.

[onemoremile]

Camber isn't as large an issue since the tires can still roll straight ahead and don't fight each other in any way.

Picture a sports wheelchair. The wheels are cambered in but are still pointed straight ahead. Any toe at all would be hell on the person in the chair.




Now picture a skier snowplowing to stop. They may be flat or nearly flat to the ground but they point towards each other which prohibits forward progress.

[Nebone]

I can feel the tires fighting themselves and they are louder than usual. Gas mileage is ~21 mpg which is shitty. If a tire shop hears "shift my subframe" they will say "whats that?"

Good to have onemoremile on this post since he has good experience with this and I'd never know to shift the subframe.

I just replaced a subrame and steering rack on my brothers MK4 and it rides great but steering wheel is crooked. That will be aligned at VW stealership by my bud.

[iin10ded]

i snowboard man, i can't hang w/ your skier analogies. ;-)

nah that makes total sense - i guess i momentarily forgot that the road is BELOW the tire. and this is why i'm not an engineer. so i'm not going to worry about the .4 degrees or so my camber is off.. and hopefully the sumi's will fare better than the kuhmo's.

but.. i am worried about my CA / fender issues. any thoughts?

[onemoremile]

The Sumis probably won't be any better than the Kuhmos. They have a treadwear of 160 which is really low. I got them because they have incredible dry performance for the money. Trashing a $900 set of Pilot Sports in a day on the track is asinine. Doing the same to a $240 set that is just as fast isn't nearly as bad.

I have no idea what is wrong with the control arms. They should never touch the fender under any circumstances. Do they hit while driving? I can see some damage from a careless mechanic but not from driving.

[Nebone]

So VW dealer says they only work on VW and won't align my audi. They normally charge $70... Bull*

Called Audi and they want $150 for an alignment which is definately too much wheras other places charge $80 at maximum.

I been calling places and seems like the dealership is my only way to get it done right.

[onemoremile]

Ask the VW service writer if they will align a Passat 4Motion with different badging. Maybe even offer to pay a little extra if they overlook that strange badging.

[maxspeed]

Ask the VW service writer if they will align a Passat 4Motion with different badging. Maybe even offer to pay a little extra if they overlook that strange badging.

hahaha, debadge EVERYTHING, and just throw a dub logo on the back....

[Nebone]

I called a local subaru dealer and asked about aligning my car. Their responce was.

"We deal with lowered cars all the time. Out tech has an Audi A4 and his wife has a TT so he can do anything to your car"

They charge $90 and I'm scheduled for friday.

I found somewhere that front camber should be -0.9 both sides so I'll let them know.

[loustylez]

I called a local subaru dealer and asked about aligning my car. Their responce was.

"We deal with lowered cars all the time. Out tech has an Audi A4 and his wife has a TT so he can do anything to your car"

They charge $90 and I'm scheduled for friday.

I found somewhere that front camber should be -0.9 both sides so I'll let them know.

that's going to depend on your drop, but as long as you're close to that, you should be good. i had an issue with tire wear and onemoremile was rediculously helpful. got it aligned by a guy at a honda dealer who does a bunch of SCCA cars so he knew just what he was doing. i think it was $80 or 90.

here's my printout after i got it aligned

[onemoremile]

You will still get some tire wear do to the toe settings but it shouldn't be too bad.

Toe is by far the most critical when it comes to tire wear and turning characteristics. I had a 94 Jetta VR6 autocross car that ran 1/16" total toe out in the front and it took two seconds off average laps. Under hard acceleration the rubber bits squished and the tires pulled themselves forward for zero toe and the best possible traction. When braking they opened up more than the 1/16" which really helped turn in. If it had been a dedicated autocross car I would have run 1/16" toe out for the rear and 1/8" for the front.

[brlukosk]

Should I go for zero toe next time I get an alignment then?

Also, do you know what bolt(s) is(are) tweaked to adjust the toe in/out?

You can get plates and a toe measuring tool at harbor freight for verrry cheap. It would be nice to keep an eye on my alignment over time, or adjust it after some suspension work inbetween alignments. Sometimes your going to install new suspension, then do ctrl arms 2 weeks later, but its a waste to do an alignment inbetween, but your driving 100 miles etc...

[onemoremile]

Toe strings work well. Folks will argue their merit but nearly every race team in the world uses them. My car has been aligned with them too.

Seems like the tie rod end would be used to adjust toe.

Zero toe works for some cars but not others. Since it it within the stated spec it might be something to try. Most dealerships just get it within spec and call it a day. They generally don't care if it is positive on one side and negative on the other. I ask for it to be within a certain range and equal on both sides.

[brlukosk]

Yeah, they dont do anything special if you dont request it.

I had told them to equalize the camber on both sides in the front, they said it couldnt be done, so I showed them documentation from alldata explaining how to do it. This was at a VW dealer by the way..

What are the specs you ask for?

[onemoremile]

I haven't had an alignment in at least 3 years so it has been awhile. If I went in tomorrow I'd ask for zero toe within .1 degree or it balanced side to side within .1 degree. I bring a printout showing what I want and have the service manager sign off on it. Then I can compare it to the final printout and see if it needs more tweaking. If it is off but they have a good explanation I don't really worry about it. If it is off due to ignorance, laziness, or apathy I go make friends with the general manager while they fix it.

[brlukosk]

Good call I will do just that.

I am going to wait yet because I am in the process of ordering some flik justice wheels w/ tires as well as a bilstein sport shock setup as well for use with my vogtland springs.

Just to give you an update, the coilover setup I was running was trashed.. I am going to go with the shocks/springs and just let it be. (I dont need to be in the garage tweaking things every week like I was with adjustables.)

[Nebone]

I'm dropping the car off today at Subaru. It has H&R Race Springs on Bilstein Shocks. Drop is good and no rubbing.

Heres what I'll tell them.

- Set camber to be equal on both sides within speck. (Subframe needs to be shifted to achieve that)
-Set to within speck and within range (both sides slightly + or slighty -)

Camber seems lke it can only be set to one value if set eually on both sides since subframe shifts both sides qually and control arms have no adjustability.

Toe can be adjusted to anything by turning the tie rods and must be within speck, hopefully equal on both sides.

[brlukosk]

Looks good to me. Your in a lot better of a position than I was the first time I had an alignment done.

[Nebone]

*Update*

Best Subaru Dealer in RI can not perform an alignment on the A4. They say their computer shows 3 different alignment specks for the car and they just can't do it. THey even say it has computerized suspension lol. So now they put like 6 miles for my car for no reason, god knows how they drove it. This is the 2nd time my car was at a shop in the last 2 years.

I'm going to end up paying $150 at Audi stealer now.

[brlukosk]

Thats crazy...

Go to VW, its like half the price.

[Nebone]

The VW dealer where my friend works said they only do VW but he might talk em into it. Is the Passat B5 4 motion equipped with exact same drivetrain and suspension as A4 quattro?

There is a kid in the area with coil overs so he might tell me where he did his.

[onemoremile]

The Passat 4 Motion is the Audi A4 underneath. They should be the same. Any dunderhead should be able to align your car.

Tell the Subaru guys to step away from the 'puter and look under a car once in a while. They would soon know that there is no computerized suspension in your car. You have to get an Allroad or A8 for the computerized air suspension. Recommended specs are on the printout on the last page. The only remotely crazy thing they'd need is the pressed toe tool and setting and half the Audi and VW dealerships don't bother with it anyway. The Passat has the same setting as far as I know.

[brlukosk]

Yep. If VW says they cant do it they are out of their minds..

Get the service manager ASAP out front and ask him rather than the idiots at the front desk. Most of the time they don't know what they are talking about, or they DO, but they are playing dumb to try and do as little as possible.

[Nebone]

They are dunderheads. Anyone who never dealth with Audis think they are made of cosmic matter and won't deal with it. I wrote down what to do on service paper, called them in the morning before they attempted it and they assured me they have best technicians and it will be done. This is why I don't take my car to shops.

Forums are the only way to learn tips and tricks on cars and we know more than mechanic noobs that can't read a repair process.

[NoFlyZone]

Audi dealer in Las Vegas aligned my car. It was beautiful. Wore out my tires in LESS than 4K miles!! They set the rear toe ALL THE WAY IN. My car was always dirty after that visit. Found out why the hard way. It was my Pilot Sports shredding leaving rubber matter all over the back of my car! Aside from them racing my A4 on the back lot, disconnecting various electrical parts so that I could diagnose these issues over the next 6 months, leaving bolts loose so they fall off miles down the road, shall I go on? All because I believe I asked them to not touch my car other than a code diagnosis and an alignment. AUDI OWNERS BEWARE!

Desert Audi - Las Vegas Nevada

And yes this is a true story.... and not the first on this car with "other" mechanics work!

Sorry about this rant

[onemoremile]

Did you retell this story to Audi of America and the general manager of that dealership?

[a4rings]

If the car is riding on the inside edges due to excessive camber it will wear them more quickly but not drastically. If the toe is also out of whack then it will wear them very quickly. If your front tires are parallel like this || then they just roll along. If they point towards or away from each other at all / \ or \ / then they fight each other constantly.

Camber just puts the weight of the car on a smaller area. Toe problems literally scrubs the tires against each other. I've run -2.5 camber on my old autocross Jetta and put 15k miles on a set of soft Azenis without problems. I even sold them used to a guy for use on track days. They had plenty of life left in them.



Why would your upper control arms ever get close to your fenders?

with these diagrams ( / \ and \ / ) are you talking about the top of the rim going in toward the center of the car or out away from the center of the car or are you talking about the front of the rim, (if u look at it horizontally) turned in towards the center of the car or away from the center? I'm wondering because i'm lowered on neuspeed race springs and both of the front wheels the top of the wheel comes toward the center of the car so if you were looking from the back of the car, both of the front wheels are / \. so this would be camber right? my tires do wear kinda fast on the inside edge.

[onemoremile]

You are talking about negative camber. That puts more weight on the insides of the tires which promotes heat and causes premature wear. This additional wear isn't nearly as much as most folks think it is. A couple degrees of negative camber with zero toe (tires pointed straight ahead) isn't bad at all. Add in a half degree of toe and the wear accelerates quite a bit because now the portion of the tires bearing all the weight aren't just rolling along in concert, they are somewhat opposed to each other. This both creates additional heat and scrapes the rubber right off of both tires.



This is negative camber on my car before a track day. Note that I have toe set at zero and have had no tire wear issue whatsoever. During autocross season I would wear the outsides first even with about 2 degrees of negative camber.



You can take a tire off and examine the tread for clues as to why it is wearing prematurely. Tires generally show signs of feathering or other damage from improper settings. Bear in mind that Audi's recommended settings are quite wide and are for cars at stock ride height on all season tires rated for 60k miles or so. A soft sport tire on a lowered car is an entirely different matter.

[Daft]

From my experiences on the B5 A4, I've never been able to keep a set of tires for more than 15K miles. The lowered suspension is just too much camber for the inner edges to handle. Honestly the front end is by far the worst. I recall my front camber being in that -1.7 -1.8 region too. Toe is always dead on and it still eats the inner edges like crazy. This is also on a tire with a 400 treadwear rating.

My OEM sport suspension allowed tires to last closer to 20K miles before hitting the wear indicators.

[Nebone]

I had Pirelli P6000 225/45/17 last ~40k miles on Sport Suspension. AWD cars properly aligned do not eat tires nearly as fast as FWD or RWD cars just because we can't light them up.

Proper Alignment is key.

I'm getting 19 mpg now and tires are louder than usual and I plan to take a drive to canada soon with over 1000 miles so I hope i get it done right.