Preliminary results of B12 Piston Soaking for oil consumption reduction

[Bolshoi]

Hey all,

After coming across Eurotrash Motorsports' video on B12 piston soaking the 2.0T, I decided to give it a try myself. Before going any further, I'd like to say thank you to Eurotrash Motorsports.

Video here (https://youtu.be/bTEwZgXhzRs?si=LWODOmUVOdK-q6IN)

315511

Context:

My 2013 A4 2.0T has 156,000km (97k miles) and was burning (the weeks leading up to the soak) about 1L/280km, or about 1qt/170 miles. It wasn't always this bad, but deteriorated rapidly. The car already had timing and water pump done, brakes/rotors all around recently, and I love it, so I didn't want to just give up on it. I'm also not comfortable selling the car to someone in that condition. Anyway, by the time my trip had 100 km driven on it, I was down almost half a qt.

With this in mind, I had nothing to lose before just getting a new engine.

Theory

The logic behind this soak is that a component of the engine is dirty, and thus not functioning as intended; cleaning this component should improve its function. In this case, as we all know, it's the piston rings. Pouring seafoam or STP, which are lubricants, into the oil fill, driving around a bit, and hoping for improvement is one thing. Pulling the plugs and pouring solvent directly onto the pistons is another. I'm well aware that this is not a permanent fix; the rings will get clogged again, blowby will increase, and they'll have to be cleaned again. Compared to the cost of a ring job, I'd prefer to keep doing this soak as much as required.


Soak

I'm not going to get into the way the soak is done since it's outlined in the video linked above, but I changed a couple of things. I scoped my pistons and 2 and 3 looked brand new, plugs were nice too. 1 and 4 were soaked and caked in layers of carbon. Knowing this, I kept scoping the pistons over 24 hours and added more B12 to whichever piston needed it. Unlike the video, I also turned the crank about 25 total revs over the 24 hours, pretty much every time I went into the garage.

What happens after the soak is up to you. The Toyota community is divided; some say absolutely do not even start the engine with B12 in it, some say take it on the highway. I split the difference and idled it for about 15 minutes. After this, I drained, kept the old filter, and did about 4L of Rotella T6 and 0.6L of varsol; ran the car for about 15 seconds and drained it all. I let it drain for over an hour as I went out to go get some more oil, a filter, and new plugs. After getting the new oil in, I bombed it down the highway in 3rd/4th sitting anywhere from 3k-5k.

Now, a couple of things that Eurotrash Motorsports may not have mentioned: starting the car with the B12 is difficult. You're likely to crank for 30+ seconds before it runs. My battery started to die several second before it finally turned over and ran. In hindsight, should have had a charger. This one I'm less sure about: the angle of the cylinders towards the passenger side is small but not insignificant, and the B12 tends to pool that way when sitting on the piston. It may be worth jacking the car up a bit on the passenger side to level it.

Results

I've done 400km of driving since the soak, and my oil level has not gone down a single notch. Every time I check, I'm prepared for disappointment, yet it's still full. I don't know how long this'll last, but it feels amazing. There were night where I'd lay in bed thinking about the cash for a piston ring job, or the morality of selling the car as is.

What's evident is that the B12 did what a solvent does, and what Seafoam or STP can't do, and it dislodged the carbon sitting on the rings. How long before they're clogged again, I don't know.

Watch the video above and decide for yourselves!

[lhlan]

These:


Hey all,

I'm also not comfortable selling the car to someone in that condition.
............................................

There were night where I'd lay in bed thinking about the cash for a piston ring job, or the morality of selling the car as is.



deserve a kudo!

Yes, had you sold the car, you would have passed on those sleepless nights to its next owner.

Are you selling now?

[Bolshoi]

These:



deserve a kudo!

Yes, had you sold the car, you would have passed on those sleepless nights to its next owner.

Are you selling now?

Funny, not so willing to sell it anymore. I also just did my PCV a week after the soak. The combination of the two made the car feel 100k smoother. If I get control arms done soon too, it'll be my A4 of Theseus.

[Seal1968]

It will be interesting to see how many kms you can go before it uses some oil...please keep this updated.

Others will definitely chime in, especially to note the 2009-2011 CAEB 2.0 cars and their ring issues. This soaking procedure won't help for those engines with under-sized rings.

The only cure for them is a rebuild.

Nice work.

[Theiceman]

That's great to hear, i also would be curious about long term longevity of this work.

do you have VCDS ? i think you can very accurately measure oil level with that. rather than just the 4 blocks on the display.

[Bolshoi]

It will be interesting to see how many kms you can go before it uses some oil...please keep this updated.

Others will definitely chime in, especially to note the 2009-2011 CAEB 2.0 cars and their ring issues. This soaking procedure won't help for those engines with under-sized rings.

The only cure for them is a rebuild.

Nice work.

Mine being a 2013, so CPMA, but build date is 04/2012, which I've read means there's a chance it's still running CAEB rings. I've always hoped that's not strictly true, lol.

[osirisky]

Hello everyone, I just wanted to chime in as well. Very similar situation, I stumbled upon Eurotrash Motorsport's video about piston soaking a few months after recently getting into a 2013 allroad. When I picked up the vehicle, I was burning 1L of oil in 440km. After the soak, I haven't seen the digital reading of my oil level drop after 550km and counting. I bought the vehicle ready for a rebuild, but if this ends up lasting long term, I'd be quite pleased as is.

[Bolshoi]

Hello everyone, I just wanted to chime in as well. Very similar situation, I stumbled upon Eurotrash Motorsport's video about piston soaking a few months after recently getting into a 2013 allroad. When I picked up the vehicle, I was burning 1L of oil in 440km. After the soak, I haven't seen the digital reading of my oil level drop after 550km and counting. I bought the vehicle ready for a rebuild, but if this ends up lasting long term, I'd be quite pleased as is.

Love to hear it.

[Allowencer]

It will be interesting to see how many kms you can go before it uses some oil...please keep this updated.

Others will definitely chime in, especially to note the 2009-2011 CAEB 2.0 cars and their ring issues. This soaking procedure won't help for those engines with under-sized rings.

The only cure for them is a rebuild.

Nice work.^ this. This. And further more, this.


Later model years can get carbon build up easy. Constant and consistent short trips with the car can cause this condition to build. Bad/poor PCV / lack of proper crankcase vacuum and ventilation can cause this too. Bad gas can lead to this too as you're not burning at a higher flash point based on the expected RON. Etc...

Nice work, good form.

I would have done a compression and leak down test before and then after 100 miles, do another one. Curious on the values that might show.


Keep us posted.



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[Seal1968]

Perhaps for us with original rings this should be an annual maintenance job...

[Allowencer]

Perhaps for us with original rings this should be an annual maintenance job...Wont help at all. Need the pistons and rings swapped. That's the only solution for that issue.

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[Bolshoi]

700km driven, no drop in oil. A month ago that would have been at least 2 qts.


Wont help at all. Need the pistons and rings swapped. That's the only solution for that issue.

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To be fair, Eurotrash did this on a 2011 and reported similar results.

[Allowencer]

700km driven, no drop in oil. A month ago that would have been at least 2 qts.



To be fair, Eurotrash did this on a 2011 and reported similar results.[Queue Anchorman]I don't believe you[/Anchorman] lol

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[Bolshoi]

Update for those who care: first notch down on the oil level came at 1078km driven. I would have now used 3.5 qts before the soak.

[JoeMama]

Any chance you took any before and after compression values?

[Theiceman]

Any chance you took any before and after compression values?won't be any difference I would suspect, the issue is the oil scraper rings

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[JoeMama]

won't be any difference I would suspect, the issue is the oil scraper rings

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Do they get weak and not scrape the wall anymore or carbon build up? Assuming being it’s due to the carbon build up that is clogging the oil rings and its journals. Making it not push against on the walls. Putting oil in the cylinder doing a compression test with bad piston rings will boost the psi. The oil is really just filling the gaps. It also goes the other way around too, it’s also why it’s burning so oil since it’s getting through the rings.

I bet a compression test would test would be higher after doing this work.

[Bolshoi]

1550km, still only down the one notch from full. Looks like I'll be able to make my next oil change without a top-up in between.

[Seal1968]

Wow, impressive result. Definitely worth trying if you start to burn oil, and for yearly maintenance I say.

My car is rolling up on 312,000 kms, so I'm thinking will do a soak and put in the new PVC I have on my work bench while I'm there.

ps...I'm loving the oil extractor I bought for oil changes...so much faster.

[Bolshoi]

312k on an Ontario Audi is impressive! How much suspension work have you had to do?

[Seal1968]

1 ball joint on passenger side and two rear shocks recently. My car has lowering springs which tends to be hard on factory shocks. Otherwise tight as a tick. Just have to remind my wife to go slow over rough pavement...she's got a lead foot.

[Bolshoi]

So, just came back from a trip down to the states. Car has now done 4,100km (2,500 miles) since the soak, and the oil level is still sitting 1 notch below full.

[Theiceman]

So, just came back from a trip down to the states. Car has now done 4,100km (2,500 miles) since the soak, and the oil level is still sitting 1 notch below full.good news

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[Seal1968]

Where'd you buy the B12 from?

[Bolshoi]

Where'd you buy the B12 from?

Not sold in Canada unfortunately. It's on Amazon for a ridiculous $25 a bottle, or you can find it on Ebay. It's at every Home Depot/Napa/Gas Station in the States.

You want the Chemtool injector cleaner btw. The other B12 formula is the same thing, but it's aerosolized.

Also, I'm now at nearly 6k km post-soak, one notch down. Can't believe I can do an oil change without a single top-up.

[Seal1968]

Not sold in Canada unfortunately. It's on Amazon for a ridiculous $25 a bottle, or you can find it on Ebay. It's at every Home Depot/Napa/Gas Station in the States.

You want the Chemtool injector cleaner btw. The other B12 formula is the same thing, but it's aerosolized.

Also, I'm now at nearly 6k km post-soak, one notch down. Can't believe I can do an oil change without a single top-up.

Wow, that is a great result. Well worth the time invested.

As for the B12 -copy that- I think I'll ask my friend who works at the border to grab me some when he slips over for beer.

[Theiceman]

Wow, that is a great result. Well worth the time invested.

As for the B12 -copy that- I think I'll ask my friend who works at the border to grab me some when he slips over for beer.

..or gas, or groceries, or car parts, or clothes, or 134a ;)

[Bolshoi]

Now down a second notch, somewhere approx. 6,200 km post-soak. What I'm really curious about is when I'll see an acceleration in burning again. I'm really happy that the rings are still working as they should 6k later, but I'm wondering if this is something that'll have to be done every 10k, or something that'll last years.

[featherman]

Now down a second notch, somewhere approx. 6,200 km post-soak. What I'm really curious about is when I'll see an acceleration in burning again. I'm really happy that the rings are still working as they should 6k later, but I'm wondering if this is something that'll have to be done every 10k, or something that'll last years.

I’m curious about the other end of the spectrum; if you went ahead and did it again right now, would consumption drop to zero?

I did a good long 48hr soak over a weekend and agitated the rings by rocking the crankshaft back and forth every couple hours. I went through two full bottles of B12, plus Seafoam and Marvel. Ran it on the highway for 20 min at high rpm before doing an oil change. My consumption is now down to zero, or at least unmeasurable between oil changes. 130K miles on a 2014 CPMB.


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[Bolshoi]

I’m curious about the other end of the spectrum; if you went ahead and did it again right now, would consumption drop to zero?

I did a good long 48hr soak over a weekend and agitated the rings by rocking the crankshaft back and forth every couple hours. I went through two full bottles of B12, plus Seafoam and Marvel. Ran it on the highway for 20 min at high rpm before doing an oil change. My consumption is now down to zero, or at least unmeasurable between oil changes. 130K miles on a 2014 CPMB.


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Compared to what I was burning, it basically is burning zero, to be fair. I'm going to do an oil change in a week or so anyway and I still have a couple cans of B12 from the States. Might do a mini-soak for 24 hours and one bottle again.

[lhlan]

Compared to what I was burning, it basically is burning zero, to be fair. I'm going to do an oil change in a week or so anyway and I still have a couple cans of B12 from the States. Might do a mini-soak for 24 hours and one bottle again.

Don't do that!

You will need that oil level going down every 3000 km or so to remind yourself of this wonderful repair / fix / result.

If instead the level doesn't move, you will soon forget it exists.

[Allowencer]

Wow, that is a great result. Well worth the time invested.

As for the B12 -copy that- I think I'll ask my friend who works at the border to grab me some when he slips over for beer.Where do you live?

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[Seal1968]

Where do you live?

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I live just south of Owen Sound ON.

[Allowencer]

Oh you're way North lol. I'm all the way by Windsor (SW ON).

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[Bolshoi]

So, finally changed my oil after 7,900km. Lost 1 notch on the oil level display over that time. Absolutely insane difference made by a 24hr procedure that costs under $100. I think at this point there's no need to update anymore until I start seeing significant oil consumption again (if ever).

[Theiceman]

So, finally changed my oil after 7,900km. Lost 1 notch on the oil level display over that time. Absolutely insane difference made by a 24hr procedure that costs under $100. I think at this point there's no need to update anymore until I start seeing significant oil consumption again (if ever).

Thanks for the follow ups ....

I think you are the first person to document success with this so gives hope going forward that this can be tried.

Even if you only get 25k miles out of it ( and no reason to think you wont get more ) ... so what .. still a fantastic investment.

[WHT13AR]

Semi topic, was just at my local O'Reillys, B12, 7 bucks a can.

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[a4lownslow]

15 with just under 100k. Quart every 4-500 miles. Did the b12 soak and have driven 200 miles with zero loss. Closely monitored with dipstick and VCDS.


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[Theiceman]

15 with just under 100k. Quart every 4-500 miles. Did the b12 soak and have driven 200 miles with zero loss. Closely monitored with dipstick and VCDS.


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this is encouraging .. at least for those wit B8.5s. Would be interesting to see if anyone with earlier cars can have success.

[a4lownslow]

I don’t see why it would matter they have the same oil control ring design. If you read through the comments of Eurotrashs video quite a few others have tried it and posted there results. B8-b8.5. I’ve got a 2012 with 60k I’m going to try it on as well. That’s one seems to be a quart every 1000 miles


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[AudiTLC]

2009 - berrymans worked. early yet but reduction in oil burning is significant

[Bolshoi]

Absolutely love seeing these successes.

[Bolshoi]

2009 - berrymans worked. early yet but reduction in oil burning is significant

Any updates?

I'm now approaching 10,000km post B12 soak and my car has outright stopped burning oil. From what I see the B12 substantially reduces consumption but doesn't straight up stop consumption like it has on mine. I'm beginning to think replacing the PCV around the same time is also a contributing factor. That being said, I replaced the PCV diaphragm a month or so before that on the old one and it did nothing to help consumption, though it did change the vacuum behaviour.

[Seal1968]

The more I look around online, the more I see videos from mechanics that talk about these types of chemical treatments. Seems to be an industry practice as a maintenance thing, especially German cars and diesel engines...bless the internet for bringing this option to light. Not saying this is the be-all / end-all for oil burning, but damn, the evidence points to a good option for DI engines and carbon build up on the rings.

I say keep documenting your results fellas!

[AudiTLC]

Any updates?

I'm now approaching 10,000km post B12 soak and my car has outright stopped burning oil. From what I see the B12 substantially reduces consumption but doesn't straight up stop consumption like it has on mine. I'm beginning to think replacing the PCV around the same time is also a contributing factor. That being said, I replaced the PCV diaphragm a month or so before that on the old one and it did nothing to help consumption, though it did change the vacuum behaviour.

No oil loss yet. Seems to be going good! MMI still full, and dipstick level hasn't dropped.

I'll def do another round when I get to the timing chain.

[Perry01]

No oil loss yet. Seems to be going good! MMI still full, and dipstick level hasn't dropped.

I'll def do another round when I get to the timing chain.

Why would you do it again if your not burning any oil?

[AudiTLC]

Why would you do it again if your not burning any oil?

Why do you change motor oil when there's nothing wrong with the car? [:D]

I can still see deposits on the pistons and doing more cleaning sounds prudent when I have everything opened up anyway.
Because oil burning has been reduced doesn't mean it has stopped burning oil or stopped the cause of burning oil.

Long way around to say, some maintenance interval is probably a good idea.

[Perry01]

Why do you change motor oil when there's nothing wrong with the car? [:D].

Because motor oil is good for my engine. Have you seen what’s in a bottle of B12? I wouldn’t introduced that stuff into my engine and turbocharger if it wasn’t necessary. If you’re not burning any oil I don’t think it’s necessary.

[silver_tt]

Agree with Perry01 on this one. Actually to be honest before I tried B12 piston soak, a much safer method would be to run a short OCI of Cummins Valvoline Restore. It's $80/gallon and a bit of a pain in the ass to get, but way safer than the B12 method. Still good to have the B12 method for the nuclear option if all else is lost...........

[AudiTLC]

Any updates?

I'm now approaching 10,000km post B12 soak and my car has outright stopped burning oil. From what I see the B12 substantially reduces consumption but doesn't straight up stop consumption like it has on mine. I'm beginning to think replacing the PCV around the same time is also a contributing factor. That being said, I replaced the PCV diaphragm a month or so before that on the old one and it did nothing to help consumption, though it did change the vacuum behaviour.

just another update- finally the mmi dropped a notch in oil level. The rate of loss is so much less than it used to be. So, you are correct, there is a substantial reduction but I never expected a "cure" so i'm very happy still.
And you're also right, there may be other factors contributing to oil loss.

[Bolshoi]

just another update- finally the mmi dropped a notch in oil level. The rate of loss is so much less than it used to be. So, you are correct, there is a substantial reduction but I never expected a "cure" so i'm very happy still.
And you're also right, there may be other factors contributing to oil loss.

Awesome to hear! My oil level dropped a notch too after a few thousand km, but when I checked again a few thousand later it was back at full, despite roughly identical temps/ground level.

[a4lownslow]

I have used the b12 on multiple 2.0T engines with great success.

Most recently did this on my 2017 q7 3.0T CREC engine. Consumption was 1 quart every 350 miles. I have now driven the car 370 miles and the oil level hasn’t moved. Incredible.


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[JLAllroad]

I have used the b12 on multiple 2.0T engines with great success.

Most recently did this on my 2017 q7 3.0T CREC engine. Consumption was 1 quart every 350 miles. I have now driven the car 370 miles and the oil level hasn’t moved. Incredible.


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Used LM engine flush on our 4M Q7 (CREC) but was “only burning” 1qt every 1700mi, now down to about a liter every 5K.


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[lhlan]

just another update- finally the mmi dropped a notch in oil level. The rate of loss is so much less than it used to be. So, you are correct, there is a substantial reduction but I never expected a "cure" so i'm very happy still.
And you're also right, there may be other factors contributing to oil loss.

After how many km / mil travelled?

[a4lownslow]

Used LM engine flush on our 4M Q7 (CREC) but was “only burning” 3qt every 1700mi, now down to about a liter every 5K.


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Did you add with the oil or take the plugs out and let soak in the cylinders? I took the plugs out and let the b12 soak for around 15 hours


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[JLAllroad]

Did you add with the oil or take the plugs out and let soak in the cylinders? I took the plugs out and let the b12 soak for around 15 hours


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Ran it with the oil for 10 minutes, then drain and changed.


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[m95roadster]

Ran it with the oil for 10 minutes, then drain and changed.


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Did you drive it or just let it idle?

[JLAllroad]

Did you drive it or just let it idle?

Idle


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[findalex]

I think that's what the instruction for the LM engine flush says; idle 10 - 15 min.

One bottle should be good for 2 flushes on the 2.0TFSI engine.

https://www.liqui-moly.com/en/us/pro-line-engine-flush-p000065.html#2037

If you have a topside extractor, you don't even need to jack the car up.

[WHT13AR]

I used the engine flush stuff @ 105k. A noticeable amount of particulate came out. Add, idled for 15, change, enjoy. I did not have a baseline as the car was new to me. But it burns very little now. Maybe half to a full quart on a 5k oci.

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[zwiller]

THANKS FOR POSTING! Came here looking for something else and decided to click... Totally doing this when I can and will post me findings. I am burning 1qt 700 miles now 2014 Allroad.

[WHT13AR]

If you use the engine flush, I wouldnt use an extractor. All the garbage will be in the bottom of the pan. Pull the drain plug.

Regular changes, extractor is fine.

[dgoldan]

Fantastic information. I found this thread after watching the video also. My 2013 Q5 2.0T has increased consumption to about 1 qt every 400 miles. My shop has run BG EPR through it on a couple of oil changes, and it's always appeared to reduce the consumption, but only for about 2000 miles. Then it goes back up. They have also put in BG MOA, which doesn't seem to have any effect.

Totally trying the Berryman B-12 for $4/bottle here in Colorado (https://www.walmart.com/ip/Berryman-B-12-Fuel-Treatment-15OZ/16817404?athbdg=L1200). Also replacing the PCV valve with factory Audi part (https://www.genuineaudiparts.com/oem-parts/audi-engine-crankcase-vent-valve-6h103495ak?c=YT1hdWRpJm89cTUmeT0yMDEzJnQ9cHJlbWl1b S1wbHVzJmU9Mi0wbC1sNC1mbGV4) after 3 aftermarket that have actually made the problem worse.

Follow up question. Earlier in this thread someone mentioned carbon buildup due to using lower grade fuel. I have gone from putting 91 octane in to just 85. Could that be a contributing factor?

Thx,
Dan

[JLAllroad]

Fantastic information. I found this thread after watching the video also. My 2013 Q5 2.0T has increased consumption to about 1 qt every 400 miles. My shop has run BG EPR through it on a couple of oil changes, and it's always appeared to reduce the consumption, but only for about 2000 miles. Then it goes back up. They have also put in BG MOA, which doesn't seem to have any effect.

Totally trying the Berryman B-12 for $7/bottle here in Colorado (https://shop.advanceautoparts.com/p/berryman-b-12-chemtool-fuel-treatment-fuel-injector-cleaner-increases-fuel-economy-pour-can-15-oz-0116/7040112-P). Also replacing the PCV valve with factory Audi part (https://www.genuineaudiparts.com/oem-parts/audi-engine-crankcase-vent-valve-6h103495ak?c=YT1hdWRpJm89cTUmeT0yMDEzJnQ9cHJlbWl1b S1wbHVzJmU9Mi0wbC1sNC1mbGV4) after 3 aftermarket that have actually made the problem worse.

Follow up question. Earlier in this thread someone mentioned carbon buildup due to using lower grade fuel. I have gone from putting 91 octane in to just 85. Could that be a contributing factor?

Thx,
Dan

Use this instead, Hengst is the OE supplier for Audi, FCP lifetime warranty.

https://www.fcpeuro.com/products/audi-vw-oil-separator-oe-supplier-06h103495ak

Oil and the PCV will make more of a difference than fuel in regards to carbon on the intake side (due to crankcase ventilation) fuel will make more of a difference in the combustion chamber, use top tier only. When I run E85 I mix 50/50 with top tier.


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[findalex]

I've been running 100% E85 here in California for about 3 years since it became much cheaper than gasoline. No problems at all, but I have a flex fuel engine, so it's designed for that. Ethanol burns a lot cleaner than gasoline, so it should reduce the amount of deposits compared to burning gasoline.

The only thing I do because of E85 is to put in a bottle of Techron or Gumout Regane every 2 or 3 months. The E85 blends in CA do not have the top-tier additivies I believe.

So far, 140K miles, no oil burning. Not 100% sure if it's due to engine flush or E85 or 4K oil change interval though.

[Chaingang]

Reading through this thread, I have absolutely no clue what’s going on…

[marshallnoise]

I am burning about a quart every 500 miles and that just isn't acceptable. I have my car soaking right now. I plan on just driving it around for a week or so with the B12 down there past the rings. We get a little too precious about mechanical things on these cars, IMO.

- - - Updated - - -


I've been running 100% E85 here in California for about 3 years since it became much cheaper than gasoline. No problems at all, but I have a flex fuel engine, so it's designed for that. Ethanol burns a lot cleaner than gasoline, so it should reduce the amount of deposits compared to burning gasoline.

The only thing I do because of E85 is to put in a bottle of Techron or Gumout Regane every 2 or 3 months. The E85 blends in CA do not have the top-tier additivies I believe.

So far, 140K miles, no oil burning. Not 100% sure if it's due to engine flush or E85 or 4K oil change interval though.

What year is your car?

[IdahoJOAT]

I am burning about a quart every 500 miles and that just isn't acceptable. I have my car soaking right now. I plan on just driving it around for a week or so with the B12 down there past the rings. We get a little too precious about mechanical things on these cars, IMO.

- - - Updated - - -



What year is your car?

From what I've read, B12 is rough. I'd follow a guide to the T, and most of them don't leave it in. They drain it out.

[WHT13AR]

From what I've read, B12 is rough. I'd follow a guide to the T, and most of them don't leave it in. They drain it out.

After the soak, drain it, you dont want any solvent in the crank case thinning your oil. Change the oil, drive it for a bit, pour in a bottle of the LM engine flush, follow directions, drain and fill with good oil. This will get you the best results you can ask for and will not damage your bearings. Also, not sure how you drain you oil, but for these processes, I would not use an extractor. You really want all the particulate, or as much as possible, to fall out the bottom via drain plug.

[marshallnoise]

I drove the car around for a few days and put about 100 miles on it before changing the oil. All went good. Will report back if consumption has improved.

[Theiceman]

I'm encouraged for future users that this might help them. I still would have rebuilt mine but its great for those who maybe don't have the tools, time or competence to complete an engine rebuild.

[dgoldan]

I've replaced my PCV valve with genuine Audi factory. Only $192 through https://www.genuineaudiparts.com/, which was actually cheaper than either FCP Euro or ECS Tuning.

I'm going to add the 5 oz of Seafoam to the crankcase and put 100 miles on it, then progress into the 48 hour B-12 piston soak, fog cylinders, drain oil (and replace filter), refill with some less expensive Super Tech, run for 15 min, then drain again, replace filter again and refill with Mobil 1 European Formula 5W40. Probably replace spark plugs after firing up from the B-12 and cylinder fogging also. Hoping for the best to avoid replacing pistons and rings.

[JLAllroad]

I've replaced my PCV valve with genuine Audi factory. Only $192 through https://www.genuineaudiparts.com/, which was actually cheaper than either FCP Euro or ECS Tuning.

I'm going to add the 5 oz of Seafoam to the crankcase and put 100 miles on it, then progress into the 48 hour B-12 piston soak, drain oil (and replace filter), refill with some less expensive Super Tech, run for 15 min, then drain again, replace filter again and refill with Mobil 1 European Formula 5W40. Hoping for the best to avoid replacing pistons and rings.

Hengst is the OE manufacturer for Audi, FCPeuro carries the newest revised version(s) for about $110, they don’t even bother taking the Audi rings off.


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[dgoldan]

Hengst is the OE manufacturer for Audi, FCPeuro carries the newest revised version(s) for about $110, they don’t even bother taking the Audi rings off.

Well dang. I didn't find that when I searched FCP Euro earlier. I didn't realize that Hengst was OEM. I could have saved about $80. Thanks for sharing though.

[Chillaxin]

I'm encouraged for future users that this might help them. I still would have rebuilt mine but its great for those who maybe don't have the tools, time or competence to complete an engine rebuild.

Don't forget the $ and [headbang] when trying to get the motor to line up to the transmission.

[Bolshoi]

Hengst is the OE manufacturer for Audi, FCPeuro carries the newest revised version(s) for about $110, they don’t even bother taking the Audi rings off.


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Ordered a PCV from an Audi dealer and they gave me a Hengst lol

[Justin B8]

Thanks for the follow ups ....

I think you are the first person to document success with this so gives hope going forward that this can be tried.



Recently did the same soak process, my weapon(s) of choice was GM Top Engine cleaner for the soak, about 4oz per cal, then BG 109/EPR in the crankcase.

I did not try to start it with the cleaner, in fact I let the drain plug out for the soak, but plugs threaded in to slow the solvent flash (30ish hours with periodic crank turns to wet the valve faces).
Scoped each cyl to confirm nothing liquid in them; sucked out and residue with a shopvac/vacuumhose adapter, installed old plugs, new oil, and added the EPR and fast idled for 10 mins. New oil, filter and plugs.

Was burning about a quart per 1500mi. Have about 3500miles post soak and I've added maybe half a quart.

[Theiceman]

Don't forget the $ and [headbang] when trying to get the motor to line up to the transmission.oh yeah lived that nightmare .... at -21c in a non heated garage wasn't fun

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[Theiceman]

Ordered a PCV from an Audi dealer and they gave me a Hengst lolthey will... it is original equipment on your car

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[Theiceman]

Recently did the same soak process, my weapon(s) of choice was GM Top Engine cleaner for the soak, about 4oz per cal, then BG 109/EPR in the crankcase.

I did not try to start it with the cleaner, in fact I let the drain plug out for the soak, but plugs threaded in to slow the solvent flash (30ish hours with periodic crank turns to wet the valve faces).
Scoped each cyl to confirm nothing liquid in them; sucked out and residue with a shopvac/vacuumhose adapter, installed old plugs, new oil, and added the EPR and fast idled for 10 mins. New oil, filter and plugs.

Was burning about a quart per 1500mi. Have about 3500miles post soak and I've added maybe half a quart.very nice [emoji106][emoji106][emoji106][emoji106]

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[dgoldan]

Okay, B-12 piston soak on my 2013 Q5 2.0T completed. Replacing the PCV valve didn't help my consumption, so I proceeded with the B-12. Hardest part was raising the vehicle and getting the damn splash shields off and then back on. I read all of the posts and watched videos. Decided to modify the process just a little more than some had.

7.5 oz (1.5 oz/Qt of oil) of Sea Foam in crankcase for about 150 miles. Drained oil and left drain plug out to let B-12 drain out of the system during the process. Broke one of the small, plastic tabs on the ignition coil connector removing it (argh!), but it still stays in place just fine after.

Bought a borescope off of Amazon for $23 to inspect the cylinders and pistons. Before pictures showed lots of carbon buildup. Spark plugs also showed a lot of carbon and electrodes worn down, even though I just replaced the coils and plugs 1 year ago. Rotated crank by hand with 24mm socket until cylinders were all in mid position and marked the flywheel on the bottom with a yellow paint pen so I could see each rotation and stop at mid point each time.
https://www.audizine.com/gallery/data/500/Image_2024-03-02_16_26_09_825.JPG
https://www.audizine.com/gallery/data/500/Image_2024-03-02_16_25_45_402.JPG
https://www.audizine.com/gallery/data/500/Image_2024-03-02_16_24_53_688.JPG
https://www.audizine.com/gallery/data/500/Image_2024-03-02_16_24_33_237.JPG

Used a BG 44k measuring squeeze bottle that I had for my motorcycle to easily measure out 1-2 oz of B-12.
https://www.audizine.com/gallery/data/500/IMG_5788.jpg
https://www.audizine.com/gallery/data/500/IMG_57891.jpg

Initial fill of 2 oz per cylinder of B-12. Let soak for 4-6 hours, rotated engine 5 times and then added 1 oz of B-12 per cylinder. Confirmed that 1 oz was sufficient to completely cover piston head with B-12 using borescope. Covered each plug hole with heavy duty aluminum foil to prevent dirt entry and evaporation. Repeated 5 rotations every 6 hours or so and then added another 1 oz per cylinder of B-12 each time after the rotations. Continued this for 72 hours and went through 3, 15 oz cans of B-12 (only $4.22 at Walmart). By the final day I was getting a fair amount of clear B-12 making its way out of the oil drain hole when rotating engine. Wasn't sure about rotation direction, or even if it mattered, but I remembered seeing a post that said rotate counter-clockwise only (don't know why).

Cleaned plugs for reinstallation until after the oil flush and until new plugs arrive from ECS Tuning. Rotated engine one final time without adding any more B-12 to evacuate as much B-12 as I could and left plug holes open to air dry. Sprayed cylinder fogging oil into each cylinder and rotated crank a few times to lubricate the pistons and rings before Starting.

Replaced oil drain plug and crush washer, removed oil filter and installed new, with 4.6 quarts of cheap, Walmart 5W30 Super Tech oil ($18) and added another 12 oz of Sea Foam to the crankcase for a good flush. Car fired up after about 20 sec of cranking, and like others, ran rough and got white smoke out of the exhaust for a few minutes, but cleared quickly. Drove for about 10 miles to circulate fresh oil and Sea Foam. EPC light came on while driving. OBD2 reader showed several misfires on cylinder 1 (the dirtiest of the cylinders and plugs). Cleared the codes and drained the oil for another change with new filter and Mobil 1 European Formula 5W40. Added 2 more cans of B-12 to the fuel tank and filled up. Cleaned cylinder 1 spark plug again (still waiting for new plugs from ECS). Air filter changed.

The car seems to be running great. Reset the trip meter to monitor oil consumption post B-12 soak. Only time will tell. Wish I had a vehicle lift for things like this instead of a cheap trolley jack and jack stands. I'll try and scope the cylinders again when I replace the plugs to get after pictures. The initial ones had some much reflection from the borescope LEDs that I couldn't get a good photo.

I'll monitor and post an updated after 1500 or so miles. Also buying a CARISTA adapter and subscription to disable the seat belt warning chime and retract the EPB for brake pad replacement without having to jumper wires.

[Bolshoi]

Okay, B-12 piston soak on my 2013 Q5 2.0T completed. Replacing the PCV valve didn't help my consumption, so I proceeded with the B-12. Hardest part was raising the vehicle and getting the damn splash shields off and then back on. I read all of the posts and watched videos. Decided to modify the process just a little more than some had.

7.5 oz (1.5 oz/Qt of oil) of Sea Foam in crankcase for about 150 miles. Drained oil and left drain plug out to let B-12 drain out of the system during the process. Broke one of the small, plastic tabs on the ignition coil connector removing it (argh!), but it still stays in place just fine after.

Bought a borescope off of Amazon for $23 to inspect the cylinders and pistons. Before pictures showed lots of carbon buildup. Spark plugs also showed a lot of carbon and electrodes worn down, even though I just replaced the coils and plugs 1 year ago. Rotated crank by hand with 24mm socket until cylinders were all in mid position and marked the flywheel on the bottom with a yellow paint pen so I could see each rotation and stop at mid point each time.

Used a BG 44k measuring squeeze bottle that I had for my motorcycle to easily measure out 1-2 oz of B-12. Initial fill of 2 oz per cylinder of B-12. Let soak for 4-6 hours, rotated engine 5 times and then added 1 oz of B-12 per cylinder. Confirmed that 1 oz was sufficient to completely cover piston head with B-12 using borescope. Covered each plug hole with heavy duty aluminum foil to prevent dirt entry and evaporation. Repeated 5 rotations every 6 hours or so and then added another 1 oz per cylinder of B-12 each time after the rotations. Continued this for 72 hours and went through 3, 15 oz cans of B-12 (only $4.22 at Walmart). By the final day I was getting a fair amount of clear B-12 making its way out of the oil drain hole when rotating engine.

Cleaned plugs for reinstallation until after the oil flush and until new plugs arrive from ECS Tuning. Rotated engine one final time without adding any more B-12 to evacuate as much B-12 as I could and left plug holes open to air dry. Sprayed cylinder fogging oil into each cylinder and rotated crank a few times to lubricate the pistons and rings before Starting.

Replaced oil drain plug and crush washer, removed oil filter and installed new, with 4.6 quarts of cheap, Walmart 5W30 Super Tech oil ($18) and added another 12 oz of Sea Foam to the crankcase for a good flush. Car fired up after about 20 sec of cranking, and like others, ran rough and got white smoke out of the exhaust for a few minutes, but cleared quickly. Drove for about 10 miles to circulate fresh oil and Sea Foam. EPC light came on while driving. OBD2 reader showed several misfires on cylinder 1 (the dirtiest of the cylinders and plugs). Cleared the codes and drained the oil for another change with new filter and Mobil 1 European Formula 5W40. Added 2 more cans of B-12 to the fuel tank and filled up. Cleaned cylinder 1 spark plug again (still waiting for new plugs from ECS). Air filter changed.

The car seems to be running great. Reset the trip meter to monitor oil consumption post B-12 soak. Only time will tell. Wish I had a vehicle lift for things like this instead of a cheap trolley jack and jack stands.

I'll monitor and post an updated after 1500 or so miles. Also buying a CARISTA adapter and subscription to ne able to disable the seat belt warning chime and retract the EPB for brake pad replacement without having to jumper wires.

Well done! Just by description, I believe you'll see markedly less consumption. Please keep us updated.

[featherman]

Wish I had a vehicle lift for things like this instead of a cheap trolley jack and jack stands.



A $40 set of Rhino Ramps is a great investment, mark the garage floor after you find the sweet spot and you can drive in and be under the car wrenching in less than a minute.


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[dgoldan]

A $40 set of Rhino Ramps is a great investment, mark the garage floor after you find the sweet spot and you can drive in and be under the car wrenching in less than a minute.

Yeah, definitely a good option for just getting under the vehicle, but can't take the wheels off that way. I'm considering something like this:

https://www.homedepot.com/p/QUICKJACK-7000TL-Portable-Car-Lift-with-110V-Power-Unit-Included-5175640/319496341

https://www.costco.com/quickjack-7000tl-portable-light-duty-truck-and-passenger-car-lift-system-bundle.product.100833767.html

[a4lownslow]

I use them almost daily well worth it
325793


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[marshallnoise]

I use them almost daily well worth it
325793


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I wish I could work inside my garage. My driveway is just not flat enough to use these. They are a GREAT solution.

[Theiceman]

I use them almost daily well worth it
325793


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do they have some kind of mechanical lock to keep them in place once the car is up ? i would imagine so but thought i would ask.

[MetalMan]

do they have some kind of mechanical lock to keep them in place once the car is up ? i would imagine so but thought i would ask.

Yes they do. In fact I typically relieve hydraulic pressure a bit and set the Quickjacks down on their stop.

I've got the 5000 SLX which were purchased from Costco maybe 4-5 years ago. Sale price at the time was $750-800, FAR cry from current pricing...

[Theiceman]

Yes they do. In fact I typically relieve hydraulic pressure a bit and set the Quickjacks down on their stop.

I've got the 5000 SLX which were purchased from Costco maybe 4-5 years ago. Sale price at the time was $750-800, FAR cry from current pricing...

tha is the proper way to work all lifts ,, back off onto blocks, just wasnt sure if it had them
might keep my eyes out in the used market

[featherman]

Yeah, definitely a good option for just getting under the vehicle, but can't take the wheels off that way. I'm considering something like this:

https://www.homedepot.com/p/QUICKJACK-7000TL-Portable-Car-Lift-with-110V-Power-Unit-Included-5175640/319496341

https://www.costco.com/quickjack-7000tl-portable-light-duty-truck-and-passenger-car-lift-system-bundle.product.100833767.html

They each have their place. I don’t take wheels off unless I have to - certainly not for a piston soak and accompanying oil change. I have considered the quick jacks but I can find a used two post lift for the same or less $$$ so it’s a bit difficult to justify for my situation.


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[marshallnoise]

They each have their place. I don’t take wheels off unless I have to - certainly not for a piston soak and accompanying oil change. I have considered the quick jacks but I can find a used two post lift for the same or less $$$ so it’s a bit difficult to justify for my situation.


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The only catch is having a stout enough concrete slab to hold up one of those two post jobs.

[Rmartin]

Just wanted to chime in a share that I have had a successful outcome with this process. I mostly followed the video's instructions with the exception of driving the vehicle. Instead, I opted to let the car idle for about 20 minutes and once the engine was up to temp I gave a few easy rev's. Before the soak, I was burning a quart of oil every 250 miles, sometimes less if I drove a little more spirited.. just terrible consumption. After the soak, I have now driven about 1300 miles with quite a bit of spirited driving with zero oil consumption, checked at the MMI and the dipstick. Really happy with the results thus far.

[featherman]

Random web surfing brought me to an interesting ring flush procedure used in the aviation maintenance field. See this document:

https://resources.savvyaviation.com/wp-content/uploads/savvy_pdf/savvy-oil-control-ring-solvent-flush.pdf

The most interesting part of this procedure to me, is the use of hydro locking to force the solvent through, and it seems to be a tried and true thing. I might try a modified method next time I need to do a piston soak, and put the plug back in and turn the crank. If it’s ok for single engine aviation it’s certainly fair game for automotive, in my book.

[Theiceman]

I'd be careful with that, fluid doesn't compress well..

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[devodid]

I'd be careful with that, fluid doesn't compress well..

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Can you really bend a rod by turning the crank by hand?

[Theiceman]

Can you really bend a rod by turning the crank by hand?

oh certainly not ... you will be fine.. but some guys might get lazy and attempt to hit the starter lol

I like the principle of forcing it by the rings. I think i might do a combo of both methods..

I have a tendency to think the fluid will take the path of least resistance and just rush through the ring gaps if pressured, but who knows. Where as with just pouring it in, surface tension might keep it in the combustion chamber and allow it to creep down the walls, but i have no facts, just musing

[marshallnoise]

I have a Cummins 6BT that has rusted rings to the bore (bought it as a core) and I can tell you that when you add any fluid to the cylinder bore, the fluid WILL just take the path of least resistance and go around the unrusted parts. So I think the best thing is to add little amounts, let what hits the rings soak for a bit, do it again and again and again and that will be the best you can do.

For that 6BT, I am going to be using Muriatic Acid to get the rings loose, but it is going to take some time.

[Theiceman]

I have a Cummins 6BT that has rusted rings to the bore (bought it as a core) and I can tell you that when you add any fluid to the cylinder bore, the fluid WILL just take the path of least resistance and go around the unrusted parts. So I think the best thing is to add little amounts, let what hits the rings soak for a bit, do it again and again and again and that will be the best you can do.

For that 6BT, I am going to be using Muriatic Acid to get the rings loose, but it is going to take some time.

pour a bit in , go have a beer and watch sports .. pour a bit in ..... i like that routine .

[marshallnoise]

pour a bit in , go have a beer and watch sports .. pour a bit in ..... i like that routine .

Exactly. That one dude who posted the video of pouring stuff in, let it sit 6 hours, rotate the crank 1 turn, pour more, etc for 24 hours was on to something. I don't have the discipline for that. But if you can, it is probably the best method.

[B8Buckeye]

Thanks for posting this. I watched all 3 of the Eurotrash Motorsports videos on the topic - VERY informative and encouraging.

I'm going to give this a try over the weekend on my 2011 Avant that burns a quart every 800 miles or so.

[jn1kk]

Okay, B-12 piston soak on my 2013 Q5 2.0T completed. Replacing the PCV valve didn't help my consumption, so I proceeded with the B-12. Hardest part was raising the vehicle and getting the damn splash shields off and then back on. I read all of the posts and watched videos. Decided to modify the process just a little more than some had.

7.5 oz (1.5 oz/Qt of oil) of Sea Foam in crankcase for about 150 miles. Drained oil and left drain plug out to let B-12 drain out of the system during the process. Broke one of the small, plastic tabs on the ignition coil connector removing it (argh!), but it still stays in place just fine after.

Bought a borescope off of Amazon for $23 to inspect the cylinders and pistons. Before pictures showed lots of carbon buildup. Spark plugs also showed a lot of carbon and electrodes worn down, even though I just replaced the coils and plugs 1 year ago. Rotated crank by hand with 24mm socket until cylinders were all in mid position and marked the flywheel on the bottom with a yellow paint pen so I could see each rotation and stop at mid point each time.
https://www.audizine.com/gallery/data/500/Image_2024-03-02_16_26_09_825.JPG
https://www.audizine.com/gallery/data/500/Image_2024-03-02_16_25_45_402.JPG
https://www.audizine.com/gallery/data/500/Image_2024-03-02_16_24_53_688.JPG
https://www.audizine.com/gallery/data/500/Image_2024-03-02_16_24_33_237.JPG

Used a BG 44k measuring squeeze bottle that I had for my motorcycle to easily measure out 1-2 oz of B-12.
https://www.audizine.com/gallery/data/500/IMG_5788.jpg
https://www.audizine.com/gallery/data/500/IMG_57891.jpg

Initial fill of 2 oz per cylinder of B-12. Let soak for 4-6 hours, rotated engine 5 times and then added 1 oz of B-12 per cylinder. Confirmed that 1 oz was sufficient to completely cover piston head with B-12 using borescope. Covered each plug hole with heavy duty aluminum foil to prevent dirt entry and evaporation. Repeated 5 rotations every 6 hours or so and then added another 1 oz per cylinder of B-12 each time after the rotations. Continued this for 72 hours and went through 3, 15 oz cans of B-12 (only $4.22 at Walmart). By the final day I was getting a fair amount of clear B-12 making its way out of the oil drain hole when rotating engine. Wasn't sure about rotation direction, or even if it mattered, but I remembered seeing a post that said rotate counter-clockwise only (don't know why).

Cleaned plugs for reinstallation until after the oil flush and until new plugs arrive from ECS Tuning. Rotated engine one final time without adding any more B-12 to evacuate as much B-12 as I could and left plug holes open to air dry. Sprayed cylinder fogging oil into each cylinder and rotated crank a few times to lubricate the pistons and rings before Starting.

Replaced oil drain plug and crush washer, removed oil filter and installed new, with 4.6 quarts of cheap, Walmart 5W30 Super Tech oil ($18) and added another 12 oz of Sea Foam to the crankcase for a good flush. Car fired up after about 20 sec of cranking, and like others, ran rough and got white smoke out of the exhaust for a few minutes, but cleared quickly. Drove for about 10 miles to circulate fresh oil and Sea Foam. EPC light came on while driving. OBD2 reader showed several misfires on cylinder 1 (the dirtiest of the cylinders and plugs). Cleared the codes and drained the oil for another change with new filter and Mobil 1 European Formula 5W40. Added 2 more cans of B-12 to the fuel tank and filled up. Cleaned cylinder 1 spark plug again (still waiting for new plugs from ECS). Air filter changed.

The car seems to be running great. Reset the trip meter to monitor oil consumption post B-12 soak. Only time will tell. Wish I had a vehicle lift for things like this instead of a cheap trolley jack and jack stands. I'll try and scope the cylinders again when I replace the plugs to get after pictures. The initial ones had some much reflection from the borescope LEDs that I couldn't get a good photo.

I'll monitor and post an updated after 1500 or so miles. Also buying a CARISTA adapter and subscription to disable the seat belt warning chime and retract the EPB for brake pad replacement without having to jumper wires.

For others, I believe you turn clockwise only. Original YouTube video and comments say so. And it matters a lot which direction you turn.

https://www.audiworld.com/forums/a4-b8-platform-discussion-128/2015-2-0t-crankshaft-will-not-turn-3062200/

[silver_tt]

Correct. Rotating the crank backwards can result in interference and then your oil consumption is going to be the least of your problems.

[allstock]

From what I've learned about the B8 pistons is that they are OvaLinear and the same gen VW were round....hence the fix at the dealerships was to replace the oval audi pistons with the VW piston heads.

Not positive, but I think they changed the pistons on the B8.5s.

[Theiceman]

From what I've learned about the B8 pistons is that they are OvaLinear and the same gen VW were round....hence the fix at the dealerships was to replace the oval audi pistons with the VW piston heads.

Not positive, but I think they changed the pistons on the B8.5s.

re: 8.5s being different for oil consumption.

nope same piston/ring design other than larger wrist pin....

how do i know ?

..https://i.imgur.com/k9g1sb4.jpg

1 litre every 180 miles, maintained by Audi since brand new with every maintenance on schedule.

[allstock]

nope same piston/ring design other than larger wrist pin....

how do i know ?


1 litre every 180 miles, maintained by Audi since brand new with every maintenance on schedule.
I said the fix at the dealerships.

Not virgin motor from the plants.

[Theiceman]

i was commenting on your point about 8.5s.

I will edit my post to indicate that :)

[dgoldan]

Just an update. At 3600 miles and no indication whatsoever of ANY oil consumption. Car is running great!

Follow up question for those that have done this before. What's the preventative treatment to avoid having to piston soak again in another 100k miles? I already change oil every 5k with Mobil 1 European formula 5w40. Maybe Berryman's B-12 in the tank more frequently? Seafoam for 300 miles in the crankcase before EVERY oil change? Both?

I also just ran Berryman Products 2611 Intake Valve and Combustion Chamber Cleaner, 16-Ounce Aerosol through the air intake and also removed and cleaned the MAF sensor with CRC Mass Air Flow Sensor Cleaner.

I threw 2 more cans of B-12 into a full tank of fuel this last week just for good measure.

I can't imagine this little 2.0T engine running any better when it was brand new.

[Veedubber12]

Currnetly just started the process of doing this myself today. Did the first pour at lunch today, gave it about 5-6 cranks. I got a new to me avant with a CAEB in it. Burning about a qt every 200-300 miles with smoke and everything. Was going to do the pistons and chains at the same time later down the road. I'm hoping to have similar results to the other posters on this thread just so I save myself the BS of pulling the engine.

[dgoldan]

Burning about a qt every 200-300 miles with smoke and everything. Was going to do the pistons and chains at the same time later down the road. I'm hoping to have similar results to the other posters on this thread just so I save myself the BS of pulling the engine.

Did you happen to do a compression test? Mine came out 160-165 psi across all 4 cylinders, so that led me to being skeptical about needing new compression rings (and pistons). Turns out it was just plugged drain holes in the oil control rings.

[Veedubber12]

Did you happen to do a compression test? Mine came out 160-165 psi across all 4 cylinders, so that led me to being skeptical about needing new compression rings (and pistons). Turns out it was just plugged drain holes in the oil control rings.

Not yet, I was going to do that after the piston soak treatment. Looking like I'll be starting it tonight, fingers crossed.

[Theiceman]

it's always been the oil control rings, compression ring's have never been an issue..

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[silver_tt]

+1 Agree, it's the oil control rings or the drain holes. Compression rings not really an issue....

[Veedubber12]

Just started her up, idling very rough, took a little bit to get it to fire up but was expecting that but the idle is pretty damn rough. Cat is burning stuff off the out side of it.

[JLAllroad]

Just started her up, idling very rough, took a little bit to get it to fire up but was expecting that but the idle is pretty damn rough. Cat is burning stuff off the out side of it.

You did change the oil and made sure to clear the cylinders of fluid, correct?


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[Veedubber12]

alright alright alright! FYI I did this with about 5 miles left in the tank, eventually it started running better an better to the point where it seemed good to drive. was at 0 miles when I got to the gas station, put some techron in and filled it up. Before initial startup I drained about half the oil and topped back off. Wanted to leave a little b12 to potentially break any remaining BS. It's running very smooth. When I got to the gas station there was no more burning oil/B12 smell and same when I got back home. About to change the oil, filter, plugs and PCV. I'll report back with my consumption at 1000 miles.

[Veedubber12]

You did change the oil and made sure to clear the cylinders of fluid, correct?


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I let it evaporate from the cylinders, checked it with my 10" 3/8 extension. if there was fluid left it would appear on the extension. Let is sit til it wasn't showing any, gave it a good blast of compressed air for good measure. I drained half the oil and topped before initial startup.

One really crazy cool thing I just encountered when doing the plug just now, the plugs that were in it when I got the car were black and had a lot of crap on them. After doing this they came out white tipped!

[marshallnoise]

I let it evaporate from the cylinders, checked it with my 10" 3/8 extension. if there was fluid left it would appear on the extension. Let is sit til it wasn't showing any, gave it a good blast of compressed air for good measure. I drained half the oil and topped before initial startup.

One really crazy cool thing I just encountered when doing the plug just now, the plugs that were in it when I got the car were black and had a lot of crap on them. After doing this they came out white tipped!

No matter what it is going to run rough when you fire it up the first time. So don't worry about that.

I ran on the B12 for about 300 miles or so. I am a heretic, I know.

My consumption is significantly better and I also think that not babying these cars helps too.

[Veedubber12]

No matter what it is going to run rough when you fire it up the first time. So don't worry about that.

I ran on the B12 for about 300 miles or so. I am a heretic, I know.

My consumption is significantly better and I also think that not babying these cars helps too.

The main that worried me when running the b12 soaked oil on initial startup was what Kind of effect it would have on the chain guides. Only drove it like that for maybe 8 miles or so mainly in the hopes it would loosen up any other carbon or sludge. So far there's no white smoke coming out when leaving a red light or turning onto a street at low rpm which is absolutely fantastic. I feel I may need to do this again eventually because the consumption when I bought the car was ridiculous. Also did a compression test and all cylinders were about the same. Had a little hiccup when pulling the coil pack connectors and bent one of the actuator connectors like an idiot. Still works with no code but definitely need to do something about that. Car is running smooth though. I agree with the assumption that these engines need to be driven harder your typical daily driving, the low RPM off the line driving and neighborhood driving was when the white smoke was coming out before piston soak. Now it's time for a carbon clean and then chains.

[Bolshoi]

Forgot about this thread, but I'm now like 20,000km post-soak and haven't burned an ounce of oil since. I'm REALLY glad I didn't drop like $9k CAD on a piston ring job lol.

[A4Qwattro]

Forgot about this thread, but I'm now like 20,000km post-soak and haven't burned an ounce of oil since. I'm REALLY glad I didn't drop like $9k CAD on a piston ring job lol.

amazing news!

[marshallnoise]

The main that worried me when running the b12 soaked oil on initial startup was what Kind of effect it would have on the chain guides. Only drove it like that for maybe 8 miles or so mainly in the hopes it would loosen up any other carbon or sludge. So far there's no white smoke coming out when leaving a red light or turning onto a street at low rpm which is absolutely fantastic. I feel I may need to do this again eventually because the consumption when I bought the car was ridiculous. Also did a compression test and all cylinders were about the same. Had a little hiccup when pulling the coil pack connectors and bent one of the actuator connectors like an idiot. Still works with no code but definitely need to do something about that. Car is running smooth though. I agree with the assumption that these engines need to be driven harder your typical daily driving, the low RPM off the line driving and neighborhood driving was when the white smoke was coming out before piston soak. Now it's time for a carbon clean and then chains.

I totally get it. Honestly, we have next to nothing to lose throwing the kitchen sink at these cars and kicking it old school with the remedies. Italian tune up and a great additive package is going to keep these engines on the road long enough for the stupid plastic parts to break like every other VW product on the planet.


Forgot about this thread, but I'm now like 20,000km post-soak and haven't burned an ounce of oil since. I'm REALLY glad I didn't drop like $9k CAD on a piston ring job lol.


amazing news!

That is incredible news! I am still burning some oil but I am finally at a point to track it properly.

[tronnyjenkins]

I’m getting ready (mentally 😅) to do this to a 2017 Q7 3.0 I bought for my wife. I probably should have grabbed a lower miles vehicle, but at 116k miles this one was priced well and is a prestige in the colors she wanted so here we are.

I’m no stranger to working on cars, though 90% BMW for me. My wife had a 2015 Q5 2.0 prior to this (great little car actually, ironically didn’t burn any oil at 135k) and I did PCV and some gaskets on that one.

Back to the Q7… the seller just had the PCV replaced before we bought it, I immediately changed the oil, but I think it’s burning some. I think we lost 1-2 notches in MMI in 200mi. Not terrible, but I want to get out ahead of this. Should I go straight to the B12 (soak and rotate patiently method) or should I try some in-tank treatments first?
Assuming the B12 is the way to go, I can probably grab it at Walmart here in CO. Are there multiple products though? Google results confused me.

[JLAllroad]

Here, also in CO

Note, “in gas tank” treatments will not help.

Q7 4M 3.0 CREC engine oil consumption piston pics
https://www.audizine.com/forum/showpost.php?p=15050854


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[tronnyjenkins]

Here, also in CO

Note, “in gas tank” treatments will not help.

Q7 4M 3.0 CREC engine oil consumption piston pics
https://www.audizine.com/forum/showpost.php?p=15050854


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Thanks- I typed "in-tank treatments" not really thinking about it. I should have said engine flush treatments. In-pan treatments? Ha.
With your 1st and second flush with the Liqui Moly product, did you add it to the old oil and idle then do a normal oil change, or did you change the oil, idle for ten with the flush, and change it again?
I might as well go ahead and try the flush since I don't seem to have terrible consumption. I could live with losing a half liter to a liter between OCIs.

[Theiceman]

if i had a scrap oil burning motor handy , i would do the oil soak treatment with one product in each cylinder .. do the test as described, suck it out and then remove pistons to see which ones really work..

maybe a project for when i retire. I just really want to know which product is best.

[silver_tt]

Friend of mine that ran a racing shop for years told me he always used Marvel Mystery Oil and it worked great. If my experiment with the Cummins Restore oil doesn't work, this is the direction I will probably go eventually....

[WHT13AR]

Friend of mine that ran a racing shop for years told me he always used Marvel Mystery Oil and it worked great. If my experiment with the Cummins Restore oil doesn't work, this is the direction I will probably go eventually....

So you're talking running the marvel with the engine oil?

[silver_tt]

So you're talking running the marvel with the engine oil?

Actually no, what i would do is what my friend told me he has done for years (he is much older than I am but the best wrench I know with tons of professional experience)... with the engine hot after having been driven, pull the coil packs and plugs and put the Marvel Mystery Oil in the cylinders and let it sit 24 hours or so. If it works well it should all drain to the sump naturally but if it doesn't all drain after that time I would suck the rest out to be sure you don't hyrdolock the engine. Then spin the engine over by hand to build oil pressure. Then run the engine outside because it will smoke like Hell while it all burns off.

From what I have read with the Berrymans option it seems there are two options: 1) use the berrymans as a piston soak and 2) use the berrymans as a piston soak and after then put some Berrymans in your oil and run a very short OCI with it. I personally think #2 is a bad idea and would not add it to the oil and run the engine.

I am still thinking the Cummins Restore should address the problem but won't know for sure until I am done trying. If that doesn't work I will do the Piston soak with marvel....

[WHT13AR]

Where did you get the Cummins restore oil?

[silver_tt]

You can only buy it at a Cummins service center. It is $80/gallon.

[dgoldan]

Okay, my final update on my 2013 Q5 2.0T. Made it all the way to a 5000 mile oil change with absolutely NO drop in oil level. That, from using 1 qt every 400 miles. And the oil looks completely clear, like brand new, not the black oil that I saw before. So happy with the results and sharing with anyone I can find with a newer engine that has low friction compression rings, no matter the make.

[dgoldan]

For tronnyjenkins:

Some specifics for the B-12 piston soak on the 3.0T with slant cylinders. You can skip to 21:00 to skip the Seafoam treatment and get to the B-12 specifics.
https://youtu.be/7aY1yDxSiJw?si=T8rs3NsVTgPRW-4X

Also, here is the specific product you were asking about.
https://www.walmart.com/ip/B-12-FUEL-TREATMENT-15OZ/16817404

[silver_tt]

wow that is amazing... strong work

[marshallnoise]

Yep. I am a huge fan of doing this. I also think that we are a little precious about B12 in the engine oil. I have been running a half liter of it in my engine oil for about 1000 miles. I would have to pull bearings to see if there are any deleterious effects but I have doubts. I figure if oil with detergent and this solvent is hitting the bottom of the pistons, it can't hurt.

[silver_tt]

You would not have to pull bearings, it would show up clearly in an oil analysis.

[Allowencer]

If it affects oil pressure, that is where the concern is. You don't want to drop any oil pressure on this engine.

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[tronnyjenkins]

Thank you!

- - - Updated - - -


For tronnyjenkins:

Some specifics for the B-12 piston soak on the 3.0T with slant cylinders. You can skip to 21:00 to skip the Seafoam treatment and get to the B-12 specifics.
https://youtu.be/7aY1yDxSiJw?si=T8rs3NsVTgPRW-4X

Also, here is the specific product you were asking about.
https://www.walmart.com/ip/B-12-FUEL-TREATMENT-15OZ/16817404

Thank you!

[jn1kk]

Did mine 2 months ago. 2,000 miles no oil consumption. It’s honestly kinda crazy, so I don’t believe haha. Before I used to do probably a quart every 2k.

My car did become a bit jumpier around the summer. Like in transmission or something, but I know the soak had nothing to do with it.

[Allowencer]

This is a good thing to do if done properly. If the oil control rings get carboned up, then they can't properly control oil flow from getting up into the combustion chamber.

3 major adverse affects from this:
1. More blow by combustion into the crankcase. Not good. Ruins oil further and causes further deposits to collect in the oil. Those deposits can further clog screens and affect bearing life in many areas of the engine (crank, rods, balance shafts, etc.).
2. Oil consumption as you all know
3. This could add additional wear on the pistons and rings because they are not being lubricated properly. Can also add additional wear on the cylinder walls.

There are oil squirters at the bottom of the webbing on block, damn near where the piston reaches BDC. These oil squirters shoot oil at the back side of the piston. That oil spreads out and comes out through the oil rings which applies, coats, and controls the oil amount on the cylinder walls. If those oil rings are clogged, then that can't happen. They also get "stuck" into positions and cause blow by to get by further too.

The chemical breaks down the carbon and brings the function back to the oil rings.

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[marshallnoise]

Wednesday of last week, I went to change my plugs and repair the ignition coil plugs and ran into a snag on that part so I decided to dump about 2/3 of a can of B12 in the cylinders and just let it sit until I could resume the project. It was Friday before I was able to get to it and the B12 seeped past all of the oil rings into the crank case.

I just ordered a Blackstone oil test kit and I will do an oil change when it arrives and we can see what the effect of the B12 in the oil comes back with after running the car with 2/3 can of B12 in the crank case. I am also running Rotella T4 too. I will be happy to share the results when they arrive.

Beyond that, I thoroughly believe that this last soak (only the 2nd time) will have done the trick. I will report on that as well. Previously, I was adding a quart every 350 miles and the first soak brought that up to a quart every 1000 miles or so.

[dalmation53]

if i had a scrap oil burning motor handy , i would do the oil soak treatment with one product in each cylinder .. do the test as described, suck it out and then remove pistons to see which ones really work..

maybe a project for when i retire. I just really want to know which product is best.

with the time you spent here on the forums i could of sworn you were already retired. lol

[CO-Alrd]

I did a 3 day B-12 soak on my 2013 allroad at 165k miles and after the initial oil flush, I ran Motul Xcess 5w-40 for 3k miles without dropping oil level at all on the MMI. I changed the oil again and at 400 miles, the level dropped a notch and at 450 miles, it dropped another notch again. It appears the soak worked temporarily but is on track to quickly return to my original consumption rate of 1qt/1200 miles.

I think there was some residual B-12 in the oil during those 3k miles after the flush which helped keep the rings clean and now that it's been changed twice since the soak, any remaining carbon is attracting more carbon deposits and is doing so rapidly. I have checked for external leaks which there are none.

The next thing before parking it and rebuilding the engine is trying the Valvoline/Cummins Restore flushing oil. Has anyone tried this yet on the EA888.2?

[Theiceman]

I did a 3 day B-12 soak on my 2013 allroad at 165k miles and after the initial oil flush, I ran Motul Xcess 5w-40 for 3k miles without dropping oil level at all on the MMI. I changed the oil again and at 400 miles, the level dropped a notch and at 450 miles, it dropped another notch again. It appears the soak worked temporarily but is on track to quickly return to my original consumption rate of 1qt/1200 miles.

I think there was some residual B-12 in the oil during those 3k miles after the flush which helped keep the rings clean and now that it's been changed twice since the soak, any remaining carbon is attracting more carbon deposits and is doing so rapidly. I have checked for external leaks which there are none.

The next thing before parking it and rebuilding the engine is trying the Valvoline/Cummins Restore flushing oil. Has anyone tried this yet on the EA888.2?disappointing news indeed . if you rebuild definitely post pics. silver TT is running the Cummings test as we speak . juryvstill.out

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[silver_tt]

I did a 3 day B-12 soak on my 2013 allroad at 165k miles and after the initial oil flush, I ran Motul Xcess 5w-40 for 3k miles without dropping oil level at all on the MMI. I changed the oil again and at 400 miles, the level dropped a notch and at 450 miles, it dropped another notch again. It appears the soak worked temporarily but is on track to quickly return to my original consumption rate of 1qt/1200 miles.

I think there was some residual B-12 in the oil during those 3k miles after the flush which helped keep the rings clean and now that it's been changed twice since the soak, any remaining carbon is attracting more carbon deposits and is doing so rapidly. I have checked for external leaks which there are none.

The next thing before parking it and rebuilding the engine is trying the Valvoline/Cummins Restore flushing oil. Has anyone tried this yet on the EA888.2?

When you did the piston soak and let the B12 sit in the cylinder, did it all eventually drain to the sump or did you have to suck it all out?

I am 2,000 miles into the Cummins Valvoline Restore but need to do another 3,000 miles and am leaving on vacation for a month plus the car hasn't been driven much. Once we are back the car will start getting a lot more miles logged on it and I should know within a few months... if you can wait until then i will post the results once I have a conclusion.

[Theiceman]

okay i have always kind of wondered about the effectiveness for this very reason. assisted with some brilliant art work.

https://i.imgur.com/htSyHUh.jpg

we dont run zero gap rings, so doesnt it make sense that the fluid would drain out of the combustion chamber through the ring gaps and into the crankcase in relatively short order ? i mean really you would be better if the ring gaps were totally clogged i guess then it would stay. but lets say you are only beginning to see the issue and your ring gaps are okay but some of the piston hole return holes or some of the scrapper ring is gummed up. Why doesnt the magic fluid go the path of least resistance drain out the ring gaps and not bother to hang around and work on the gunk. ?

[marshallnoise]

okay i have always kind of wondered about the effectiveness for this very reason. assisted with some brilliant art work.

https://i.imgur.com/htSyHUh.jpg

we dont run zero gap rings, so doesnt it make sense that the fluid would drain out of the combustion chamber through the ring gaps and into the crankcase in relatively short order ? i mean really you would be better if the ring gaps were totally clogged i guess then it would stay. but lets say you are only beginning to see the issue and your ring gaps are okay but some of the piston hole return holes or some of the scrapper ring is gummed up. Why doesnt the magic fluid go the path of least resistance drain out the ring gaps and not bother to hang around and work on the gunk. ?

Fair point. I think the theory is that liquid is always going to take the path of least resistance. Its not going to follow like a semi-solid green line into the crank case. Most might go that way, but surely non-viscous liquid can pass by a piston ring abutted against a cylinder wall.

Ultimately, the point you are bringing up is why lots of people doubt the ability of this to do anything at all. But realistically, I would say no more than 50% of the liquid would even pass by the affected areas of the ring. But the fact that it is a solvent, it should do some "solving" as it passes by the ring. Then blowing the thing out with an I-talian tune up and clean oil might take care of the rest.

No one should really think that this process does anything other than delay the inevitable (rebuild with fresh rings), but if doing this process once every two years extends your OCI and delays the day you HAVE to do a rebuild, then this is a great thing.

I mean, an extension of this idea would be just running straight gasoline in the cylinders instead of B12. But the price difference isn't much worth it and knowing you are getting legitimate solvents in B12 or Cummins flush should be more effective.

One could argue that heating the piston and the rings up SUPER hot would bake off the coking too. So run a torch through the spark plug hole until hit the point where the coking burns off would be even better. But you risk other problems.

We know that B12 and a removed piston sitting in a bucket will definitely desolve the stuff. With no way of sealing up the piston from the crank case limits our effectiveness.

EDIT: And when liquid flows down a hard surface but comes up upon an obstacle, it will "wick" laterally too before eventually going past the ring.

[WHT13AR]

okay i have always kind of wondered about the effectiveness for this very reason. assisted with some brilliant art work.



we dont run zero gap rings, so doesnt it make sense that the fluid would drain out of the combustion chamber through the ring gaps and into the crankcase in relatively short order ? i mean really you would be better if the ring gaps were totally clogged i guess then it would stay. but lets say you are only beginning to see the issue and your ring gaps are okay but some of the piston hole return holes or some of the scrapper ring is gummed up. Why doesnt the magic fluid go the path of least resistance drain out the ring gaps and not bother to hang around and work on the gunk. ?

Good point here. The way I look at this, and why I may try this in the near future... Yes, the fluid will leak down as there are gaps in the rings and clearance between the rings and the ring lands in the pistons. But, if you are using a fair amount of oil, odds are that the ring gaps and oil ring are really clogged up with carbon. This carbon cake will act as sort of a sponge as well as there being gaps in the carbon for the solvent to travel. This is why its a soak and you should do several applications before drain/fill and drive (italian tune up....). That way, you hopefully soak the carbon enough that it breaks up and makes its way into the pan or filter. Even if you only free up 50% of it, thats 50% more clean area for oil to flow. If you dont get the level of repair the first time, try again.

Something I wondered is a time period of the leak down. The longer it takes, the more carbon build up you have...but nobody has really measured that. Im also wondering if the carbon cleaning oils would help as the next oil change directly after the soak. If its loose but hanging on, maybe the oil would finish the job.

[Theiceman]

Good point here. The way I look at this, and why I may try this in the near future... Yes, the fluid will leak down as there are gaps in the rings and clearance between the rings and the ring lands in the pistons. But, if you are using a fair amount of oil, odds are that the ring gaps and oil ring are really clogged up with carbon. This carbon cake will act as sort of a sponge as well as there being gaps in the carbon for the solvent to travel. This is why its a soak and you should do several applications before drain/fill and drive (italian tune up....). That way, you hopefully soak the carbon enough that it breaks up and makes its way into the pan or filter. Even if you only free up 50% of it, thats 50% more clean area for oil to flow. If you dont get the level of repair the first time, try again.

Something I wondered is a time period of the leak down. The longer it takes, the more carbon build up you have...but nobody has really measured that. Im also wondering if the carbon cleaning oils would help as the next oil change directly after the soak. If its loose but hanging on, maybe the oil would finish the job.

totally agree with the time theory .. if it isn't going anywhere its a good news bad news thing ... lol..

[marshallnoise]

Good point here. The way I look at this, and why I may try this in the near future... Yes, the fluid will leak down as there are gaps in the rings and clearance between the rings and the ring lands in the pistons. But, if you are using a fair amount of oil, odds are that the ring gaps and oil ring are really clogged up with carbon. This carbon cake will act as sort of a sponge as well as there being gaps in the carbon for the solvent to travel. This is why its a soak and you should do several applications before drain/fill and drive (italian tune up....). That way, you hopefully soak the carbon enough that it breaks up and makes its way into the pan or filter. Even if you only free up 50% of it, thats 50% more clean area for oil to flow. If you dont get the level of repair the first time, try again.

Something I wondered is a time period of the leak down. The longer it takes, the more carbon build up you have...but nobody has really measured that. Im also wondering if the carbon cleaning oils would help as the next oil change directly after the soak. If its loose but hanging on, maybe the oil would finish the job.

Speaking of the type of oil, this is why I am running Rotella T4. I will switch to T6 eventually. Diesel oils are formulated to fight coking like we experience. The added benefit is that it will help the turbo out too.

[Theiceman]

ok so if we think about our two approaches, B12 a d the Cummins restore. would it not make sense to do the B12 first... essentially use it to punch some holes through first.. so let's say you get some flow at 50% here and there . Now cummins has something to work on as it can get through in different places now and work on the rest as you drive.

This of course is highly theoretical and based on star trek shield technology.. so there is that

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[JLAllroad]

Valvolines approach is cleaning over time to avoid potential problems caused by dislodged carbon. They don’t discount the abilities of engine flush or similar, they just want to avoid the above.


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[Theiceman]

Valvolines approach is cleaning over time to avoid potential problems caused by dislodged carbon. They don’t discount the abilities of engine flush or similar, they just want to avoid the above.


Sent from my iPhone using Audizine Forumyeah don't want to be giving your car a stroke

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[marcomarco]

When I did this 2 yrs ago I used Marvel Mystery Oil. I put maybe a little bit too much down each cylinder hole. The car was being stored for the winter and I didn't want things to seize. Needless to say the next morning I wanted to crank the engine with the plugs removed to clear the excess oil out the cylinders. Would you believe NOTHING shot out the spark plug holes...it all ended up in the crankcase/oil pan in less than 24 hrs. My engine has 135,000 km.

Marvel Mystery Oil...what's in it? Couldn't tell ya...

[silver_tt]

And what were the results of the Marvel Mystery Oil? How much was it burning and how much did it reduce oil consumption and since you did it two years ago what has the situation been since then? How many miles have you put on it and has the oil consumption increased again?

[Theiceman]

I think he is just saying the running through the ring gap is real he put in there for storage

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[silver_tt]

Running through the ring gaps is definitely real, if the soak works well when you let it sit for 24 hours most if not all of the liquid should drain through to the sump -- if it does not, that is a problem. I am in general curious to know the longer term effects of this, like how much the consumption was reduced and for how long.

[Theiceman]

Running through the ring gaps is definitely real, if the soak works well when you let it sit for 24 hours most if not all of the liquid should drain through to the sump -- if it does not, that is a problem. I am in general curious to know the longer term effects of this, like how much the consumption was reduced and for how long.

agreed , someone has that data you know it, Audi, or b12 or valvoline .. they just aren't telling us .. lol...

need to empty the sump..... put a bunch of b12 into the CC... set up a pump from the oil pickup and pump it back into CC let it run for 24 hours.. . lol... wonder if i ever will get that bored i would try that and wonder how many cans it would take.

[WHT13AR]

agreed , someone has that data you know it, Audi, or b12 or valvoline .. they just aren't telling us .. lol...

need to empty the sump..... put a bunch of b12 into the CC... set up a pump from the oil pickup and pump it back into CC let it run for 24 hours.. . lol... wonder if i ever will get that bored i would try that and wonder how many cans it would take.

Unfortunately, there are so many variables involved here that they would need several different studies and the results would be wide ranging as well. From people like us that are crazy about maintenance, but drive hard, all the way to people that dont care about maintenance and drive like an old lady... then you have fuel and oil grades and brands, climates... just a silly amount of variables.

As for the oil system cleaning, is that something you could do, run the oil pump, while doing the chains?? Rig up an external water pump motor, the cheap Jegs kind, to run the pump shaft while the chains are off?? Just a thought.

[Theiceman]

Unfortunately, there are so many variables involved here that they would need several different studies and the results would be wide ranging as well. From people like us that are crazy about maintenance, but drive hard, all the way to people that dont care about maintenance and drive like an old lady... then you have fuel and oil grades and brands, climates... just a silly amount of variables.

As for the oil system cleaning, is that something you could do, run the oil pump, while doing the chains?? Rig up an external water pump motor, the cheap Jegs kind, to run the pump shaft while the chains are off?? Just a thought.

i don't care really about oil system cleaning i think that's fine, . i was just trying to think of a way to recycle the b12 and constantly put it back into the CC to attack the carbon deposit.

[marshallnoise]

Just updating my experience with the B12 soak. When I first got the car, it was doing about a quart every 450 miles. After two soaks, I am now up to 1,500 miles per quart. A nice improvement.

I am going to drive on this change for another 3,000 miles or so then do another soak.

Is this a silver bullet? No. Does it help? Sure seems like it.

[Theiceman]

Just updating my experience with the B12 soak. When I first got the car, it was doing about a quart every 450 miles. After two soaks, I am now up to 1,500 miles per quart. A nice improvement.

I am going to drive on this change for another 3,000 miles or so then do another soak.

Is this a silver bullet? No. Does it help? Sure seems like it.

which method did you use

put it in rotate the crank periodically .. keep topping it up as it goes through the rings ?

[marshallnoise]

which method did you use

put it in rotate the crank periodically .. keep topping it up as it goes through the rings ?

I just poured the stuff in and let it do it's thing. I do think there is something to the rotating the motor in stages so I will probably do that this next time. As discussed, it is all about time with the fluid in the rings. Doing the rotation, top up, exercise will help for sure.

[Theiceman]

I just poured the stuff in and let it do it's thing. I do think there is something to the rotating the motor in stages so I will probably do that this next time. As discussed, it is all about time with the fluid in the rings. Doing the rotation, top up, exercise will help for sure.

yeah i think so too

[Veedubber12]

Just updating my experience with the B12 soak. When I first got the car, it was doing about a quart every 450 miles. After two soaks, I am now up to 1,500 miles per quart. A nice improvement.

I am going to drive on this change for another 3,000 miles or so then do another soak.

Is this a silver bullet? No. Does it help? Sure seems like it.

I'm with the sentiment that if you're putting a qt in less than 1K it's going to take a couple soaks to get to a tolerable point. Mine was burning a qt like every 100 miles when I first got it, smoke coming out the back when moving from a dead stop. After the soak the smoke stopped happening but I was still getting consumption, maybe a qt at 300-400 or so. Going to do another soak at the next oil change.

[marshallnoise]

I'm with the sentiment that if you're putting a qt in less than 1K it's going to take a couple soaks to get to a tolerable point. Mine was burning a qt like every 100 miles when I first got it, smoke coming out the back when moving from a dead stop. After the soak the smoke stopped happening but I was still getting consumption, maybe a qt at 300-400 or so. Going to do another soak at the next oil change.

Completely agree.

[a4lownslow]

I'm with the sentiment that if you're putting a qt in less than 1K it's going to take a couple soaks to get to a tolerable point. Mine was burning a qt like every 100 miles when I first got it, smoke coming out the back when moving from a dead stop. After the soak the smoke stopped happening but I was still getting consumption, maybe a qt at 300-400 or so. Going to do another soak at the next oil change.

I don’t agree. I’ve done the soak on close to 10 different vehicles. Most having the 2.0t and a couple with the CREC v6. All had consumption of 1qt per 300-800 miles. After one soak they’ve all gone 2500-5000 miles per qt. Generally speaking this absolutely works.


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[Veedubber12]

I don’t agree. I’ve done the soak on close to 10 different vehicles. Most having the 2.0t and a couple with the CREC v6. All had consumption of 1qt per 300-800 miles. After one soak they’ve all gone 2500-5000 miles per qt. Generally speaking this absolutely works.


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I definitely agree that works but some cars are worse than others. Some get misfire issues and their plugs are soaked with oil. Like I said mine was burning about a qt every 150 miles which is at least twice as much consumption than a car consuming a qt every 300 to 800 miles. I can see a 1 and done in that range is possible. Your range of 2500 to 5000 after the soak is quite a large range. The question is, would you do another soak on a car that goes only 2500 before a qt is burned? Would the burning come back sooner than later on one that burns a qt at 2500 miles complared to a car that is now burning a qt at 5000 miles?

[marshallnoise]

I definitely agree that works but some cars are worse than others. Some get misfire issues and their plugs are soaked with oil. Like I said mine was burning about a qt every 150 miles which is at least twice as much consumption than a car consuming a qt every 300 to 800 miles. I can see a 1 and done in that range is possible. Your range of 2500 to 5000 after the soak is quite a large range. The question is, would you do another soak on a car that goes only 2500 before a qt is burned? Would the burning come back sooner than later on one that burns a qt at 2500 miles complared to a car that is now burning a qt at 5000 miles?

Honestly, my theory is this: If I can get to 1 qt every 3K, then I will just do a soak every other oil change. It will effectively be a maintenance item moving forward.

[A4Qwattro]

Question. If you could do it all over again, would you still buy a 2.0T? Are people just doing this to get as much as they can out of the car and then fk off from Audi brand, or are there people who would knowingly buy an oil burner with the confidence that a simple piston soak would give the car a new life (another 70-100k)?

[JLAllroad]

Question. If you could do it all over again, would you still buy a 2.0T? Are people just doing this to get as much as they can out of the car and then fk off from Audi brand, or are there people who would knowingly buy an oil burner with the confidence that a simple piston soak would give the car a new life (another 70-100k)?

Most didn’t search out an oil burner, but inadvertently bought one, this is a cheap “Hail Mary” alternative to the more expensive rebuild alternative…..which is still available if it doesn’t work, so long as the cylinder bores don’t get F’d.


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[marshallnoise]

Question. If you could do it all over again, would you still buy a 2.0T? Are people just doing this to get as much as they can out of the car and then fk off from Audi brand, or are there people who would knowingly buy an oil burner with the confidence that a simple piston soak would give the car a new life (another 70-100k)?

I did enough reading about these cars AND I am confident in my own ability to manage the problems. I don't think it is easy to tell if a car is an oil burner so you are always rolling the dice.

[marshallnoise]

Blackstone came back and the results are minty.

No harm to the engine at all by having Berryman in the crankcase. Read 'em and weep. J/K, just haven't said that in a while.

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/53908301706_41ce476f40_b.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2q8G8XG)Oil Test (https://flic.kr/p/2q8G8XG) by Paul Abbott (https://www.flickr.com/photos/150885180@N02/), on Flickr

[Theiceman]

I did enough reading about these cars AND I am confident in my own ability to manage the problems. I don't think it is easy to tell if a car is an oil burner so you are always rolling the dice.[emoji817]

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[KnappAttack]

Question. If you could do it all over again, would you still buy a 2.0T? Are people just doing this to get as much as they can out of the car and then fk off from Audi brand, or are there people who would knowingly buy an oil burner with the confidence that a simple piston soak would give the car a new life (another 70-100k)?


My wife and I bought a fully loaded up 2018 Audi Q7 with 84,000 miles on the clock knowing the CREC 3.0t was prone to oil rings sticking and consuming oil. I wasn't going to buy but the Q7, but its such a great vehicle, I said I know I can fix it if its using oil. So we bought it, drove it 400 miles and it sucked down 3/4 quart on the dash right away. So I did the Berryman's B12 piston soak, then did a can of BG EPR in the crankcase along with the can of B12 that had drained thru the pistons after the soak, ran it for 25 minutes, dropped the oil and filled it with 5-30 Valvoline Restore & Protect.

We drove it to the Twin Cities up to my daughters and it drank a 1/4 Qt of oil on the way up in just 40 miles, then it quit using any oil at all after that. We've put 600 miles on it and it has not used another drop of oil since. Many people have reported no oil loss in 5000 mile changes since they fixed their ring sticking oil burners. I suspect ours will not consume any more oil now that the rings are freed up. The cylinders look great with no scoring and if you catch them early enough things should be fine if you keep the rings freed up. I plan to run the Restore & Protect oil for at least 4 oil changes of 5000 miles to clean the pistons and ring lands up, I'll take oil samples to see how the wear metals look, if all looks good, I may just keep running Restore & Protect forever. It sure runs smooth and powerful now!

[WHT13AR]

Didnt soak but tracking oil consumption...

2013, 127k, no usage after 1700 miles, Castrol 5W40 EU blend.

2015, 143k, 1/2 qt after 2000 miles. Same oil as above. Its a K04 hot rod and I drive it more spirited than not. Im going to try the BG109 restore on this car.

[Veedubber12]

I wonder if anyone here has tried pouring b12 in while the engine is still hot. I imagine it'll just fizz up and evaporate some if done right after you park the car. Thinking about giving it a try while the engine is at least still warm to hot. Maybe about 45 minutes after parking.

[marshallnoise]

I wonder if anyone here has tried pouring b12 in while the engine is still hot. I imagine it'll just fizz up and evaporate some if done right after you park the car. Thinking about giving it a try while the engine is at least still warm to hot. Maybe about 45 minutes after parking.

I literally did this a week ago. Yeah, the stuff just evaporates immediately.

[Veedubber12]

I literally did this a week ago. Yeah, the stuff just evaporates immediately.

I decided to give it a try today too and the small amount I poured in immediately fizzed and evaporated. 45 minutes was enough time to where it wouldn't fizz anymore.

[A4Qwattro]

If you don't have any oil consumption, wouldn't it be a good idea to try the Valvoline Restore and Protect as a preventative measure?

[Quattrological]

If you don't have any oil consumption, wouldn't it be a good idea to try the Valvoline Restore and Protect as a preventative measure?

Thanks for asking as I'm wondering the same thing. I got my car from my brother in-law and the thing only has 33K on it. I'd love for this thing to last a long time before anything of this significance rears it's head.

Thanks to all for contributing to this thread. Seeing many of you have positive results does help, a bit, to settle the fear of this happening to mine.

[marshallnoise]

Thanks for asking as I'm wondering the same thing. I got my car from my brother in-law and the thing only has 33K on it. I'd love for this thing to last a long time before anything of this significance rears it's head.

Thanks to all for contributing to this thread. Seeing many of you have positive results does help, a bit, to settle the fear of this happening to mine.

My advice is to run the car hard and stay on top of maintenance. Change the oil every 5K and you should be golden.

[Quattrological]

Then I am on the right path/regimen. :)

Thanks for the input!

[lhlan]

Lets make another thread - call it "One year on - B12 Piston Soaking for oil consumption reduction"
And another thread - call it "Preliminary results of Valvoline Restore and Protect for oil consumption reduction"

[Bolshoi]

Lets make another thread - call it "One year on - B12 Piston Soaking for oil consumption reduction"
And another thread - call it "Preliminary results of Valvoline Restore and Protect for oil consumption reduction"

Realizing now this thread is almost a year old, wow. For those wondering, I'm now at like 30k km post soak, haven't done it again, and haven't burned any oil since (as in literally none).

[silver_tt]

disappointing news indeed . if you rebuild definitely post pics. silver TT is running the Cummings test as we speak . juryvstill.out

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UPDATE on using the Cummins Valvoline Restore for 4.2K miles (I will run it for 5K total) with several double doses of Techron Complete Fuel System Cleaner (contains PEA).* It does NOT appear to have materially changed oil consumption.

[A4Qwattro]

UPDATE on using the Cummins Valvoline Restore for 4.2K miles (I will run it for 5K total) with several double doses of Techron Complete Fuel System Cleaner (contains PEA).* It does NOT appear to have materially changed oil consumption.

That is disappointing to hear. What is the expected mileage at which point Cummins says there should be improvement in diesel engines?

[A4Qwattro]

As a side note, the specification of the Valvoline Restore and Protect seems somewhat mediocre compared to Mobil 1 Euro, Motul Excess, Ravenol VST VollSynth, and the Liquimoly Leichtlauf. The R&P 5W-30 is like water compared to Valvoline's own 5W-30 Euro synthetic product which has the VW approval. R&P viscosities are a bit down compared to the better oils. It seems like a ****tty oil to have to consider running for 4 oil changes as recommend or permanently as some might have wanted to do. Going by Valvoline Euro Synthetic NOACK of up to 15%, I doubt the R&P is any better.

[silver_tt]

I don't know what Cummins says but when I spoke with Lake Speed Jr he told me it should work in 3000-5000 miles but I am 4200 miles in and see no difference.

I was using the Cummins product not the Restore and Protect but I agree the R&P is not one I would be interested in running since it needs multiple OCIs as you say. I'm going to just re-piston the engine ...

[STXA7]

I wonder if anyone here has tried pouring b12 in while the engine is still hot. I imagine it'll just fizz up and evaporate some if done right after you park the car. Thinking about giving it a try while the engine is at least still warm to hot. Maybe about 45 minutes after parking.

I did it with engine at operating temp after a 10 minute drive to oil change location.

Upon arrival my car had liquimoly 30w about 3k miles on it after repairing pcv with confirmed major coolant mix in oil pre-repair.

I added 1 can of BG EPR (half dose than recommended for 7.2Qt) plus full strength dose of seafoam and followed the BG EPR rev instructions for the recommended time and drained the oil from bottom drain plug.

NEXT, I just chickened out on doing piston soak and had already bought the barryman can along with seafoam so i used it as a crankcase 'flush' my logic is that there could still be contamination and 30w oil in there.

I had about 2.5QT left in a 5Qt of liquimoly lechtlauf 40w that was in my garage a year old so i mixed it with the barryman's b12 and the seafoam in total had about 4QT now. with the drainplug recorked, put it into the crankcase and could see a bit evaporating into the heat but not too severe.

I DID NOT RUN THE ENGINE AT ALL.

drainplug removed to let it out, and put in a full dose of clean liquimoly leichtlauf 40w.


TD;DR : If you insist on putting barryman b12 in crankcase you should mix it into some oil to protect it from evaporating

[Theiceman]

UPDATE on using the Cummins Valvoline Restore for 4.2K miles (I will run it for 5K total) with several double doses of Techron Complete Fuel System Cleaner (contains PEA).* It does NOT appear to have materially changed oil consumption.have feeling those rings are going to be like mine when they come out ... carbon as hard as concrete in the scraper rings..

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[silver_tt]

have feeling those rings are going to be like mine when they come out ... carbon as hard as concrete in the scraper rings..

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Agree

[Theiceman]

Agree

we will wait for the badge of honour Pic.. lol... the few and the brave ..

[A4Qwattro]

Has anyone considered going on a regular schedule of BG EPR cleaner with each oil change as a preventative measure? I think I am going to try this.

[silver_tt]

have feeling those rings are going to be like mine when they come out ... carbon as hard as concrete in the scraper rings..

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333028

[Theiceman]

333028

piston soak aint helping that lol...

[silver_tt]

agree... piston soak isn't going to help that and even if it does, these rings are just going to have the same problem again in time. The only permanent solution to this problem on this engine is to re-piston it, everything else is just a temporary Band-Aid.

[Theiceman]

agree... piston soak isn't going to help that and even if it does, these rings are just going to have the same problem again in time. The only permanent solution to this problem on this engine is to re-piston it, everything else is just a temporary Band-Aid.yeah came to that conclusion 6 years ago and got stuck in.. now you can stick a tune on it with confidence. all refreshed..

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[A4Qwattro]

333028

This is crazy.

[JLAllroad]

333028

This piston was or was not soaked?


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[silver_tt]

This piston was or was not soaked?


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Not soaked… I used Cummins Valvoline Restore oil for 5,100 miles

[Bolshoi]

Not soaked… I used Cummins Valvoline Restore oil for 5,100 miles

You should put it in B12 for 24 hours and show us what happens. Very curious

[silver_tt]

You should put it in B12 for 24 hours and show us what happens. Very curious

It is a good point you raise. A friend said the same thing to me earlier this morning and I am going to send him one and he will do exactly this. I will report back what he finds.

[Theiceman]

of course you know realistically this means nothing.. would be " neat" to see if it dissolves it, but as we have seen many times , this is not the equivalent of pouring it into the CC where it is VERY difficult for the fluid to have any consistent contact with the crud in the rings.

I have no doubt if you dip it , it will clean it.

[Bolshoi]

of course you know realistically this means nothing.. would be " neat" to see if it dissolves it, but as we have seen many times , this is not the equivalent of pouring it into the CC where it is VERY difficult for the fluid to have any consistent contact with the crud in the rings.

I have no doubt if you dip it , it will clean it.

Had to stop myself from requesting he machine a clear acrylic cylinder for us

[lhlan]

Had to stop myself from requesting he machine a clear acrylic cylinder for us

Glass will do just fine

[KnappAttack]

IMO a Berryman's B12 Piston soak would have cleaned that up enough to get things cleaned up and working again, along with a BG EPR Flush afterwards and then run Valvoline Restore & Protect to polish off the cleaning. It worked on our 2018 Audi Q7 3.0T with 84,000 miles on it. Berryman's seems to dry up and eat the carbon away very nicely. You can blow the carbon dust away after using it. Seems to turn carbon right into dust after a soaking.

[Theiceman]

IMO a Berryman's B12 Piston soak would have cleaned that up enough to get things cleaned up and working again, along with a BG EPR Flush afterwards and then run Valvoline Restore & Protect to polish off the cleaning. It worked on our 2018 Audi Q7 3.0T with 84,000 miles on it. Berryman's seems to dry up and eat the carbon away very nicely. You can blow the carbon dust away after using it. Seems to turn carbon right into dust after a soaking.

yeah .. many have tried , many have failed ... lol

[silver_tt]

I sent my 4 old pistons into LN Engineering for testing to see if the rings have lost their tension (they are already low tension), which would be the root cause of the jammed up scraper ring and therefore oil consumption issue.

[lhlan]

IMO a Berryman's B12 Piston soak would have cleaned that up enough to get things cleaned up and working again, along with a BG EPR Flush afterwards and then run Valvoline Restore & Protect to polish off the cleaning. It worked on our 2018 Audi Q7 3.0T with 84,000 miles on it. Berryman's seems to dry up and eat the carbon away very nicely. You can blow the carbon dust away after using it. Seems to turn carbon right into dust after a soaking.

Isn't Valvoline Restore & Protect not meeting VW standards? 502.00 or 505.00?

[Theiceman]

I sent my 4 old pistons into LN Engineering for testing to see if the rings have lost their tension (they are already low tension), which would be the root cause of the jammed up scraper ring and therefore oil consumption issue.

im pretty sure they will come back with the low tension rings being root cause .. i wonder how they test for this? do they first clear out all the crap then have some special device to check tension while it is in the bore ??

[silver_tt]

im pretty sure they will come back with the low tension rings being root cause .. i wonder how they test for this? do they first clear out all the crap then have some special device to check tension while it is in the bore ??

I think so too and this is also what Charles said. He has a 82.5mm cylinder that he will use to take my ringed up pistons and drag them through the cylinder bore with a fish or luggage scale or a trigger pull gauge...

[Theiceman]

I think so too and this is also what Charles said. He has a 82.5mm cylinder that he will use to take my ringed up pistons and drag them through the cylinder bore with a fish or luggage scale or a trigger pull gauge...

ah that's how they do it .. resistance to drag .. makes sense..

[silver_tt]

yep, I will post the results in a couple of weeks when I have a definitive conclusion.. if the root cause of the issue is ring tension it makes a piston soak even more of a Band-Aid... but let's see

[A4Qwattro]

I sent my 4 old pistons into LN Engineering for testing to see if the rings have lost their tension (they are already low tension), which would be the root cause of the jammed up scraper ring and therefore oil consumption issue.

I don't think it's going to prove to be the case. Many of these motors have ceased oil consumption after a proper Berryman's B12 flush which you chose not to do. All of the successful B12 soaks on 2.0T and 3.0T engines wouldn't be possible if it was simply the case that the control rings lost their tension. The material properties of the control rings don't change at the engine operating temperatures so there is no mechanism for losing tension other than being stuck in the ringland. . The root cause in most cases is simply that control rings don't drain oil back when they are clogged with carbon sediments. That's why B12 has been successful for many people. Clear the holes and the oil will drain again.

By the look of your pistons, they were far too clogged for a simple Premium Blue restore treatment. The premium blue restore was burning up and creating more garbage to keep the rings clogged because the control rings were blocked up already.

[silver_tt]

Sure it would be possible that the B12 worked if the rings lost their tension... but it just means that it's not solving the problem, you are just going to have to do a soak again in some number of miles. This is the reason I chose not to go this route and re-pistoned the engine instead. If you knew me you would know that I do things the right way and don't take shortcuts. This is also why I used all dealer parts for my rebuild.

We can speculate all we want but in about 2 weeks I will know for sure if the rings were shot and exactly how much tension they still had left in them. Charles at LN Engineering knew I was running Cummins Valvoline Restore because he and Lake Speed Jr were the ones I was talking to that I got the idea from. He also was the first person to see the picture of my piston and ring that I posted above, I sent him the picture the day I took it out of my engine. The first thing he said to me is he bets the ring lost it's tension. But he has my pistons now, they were delivered this morning, and he can look at them first hand and give me his professional opinion since he owns a company that builds engines for a living and he has been for over 20 years. I can't imagine getting a more reliable and professional opinion than his... but let's just wait until the results are in and then we will know the conclusion, at this point there is no reason to speculate other than taking bets for fun.

[A4Qwattro]

Sure it would be possible that the B12 worked if the rings lost their tension... but it just means that it's not solving the problem, you are just going to have to do a soak again in some number of miles.

This in of itself is an incoherent statement. Look at your oil control rings. They were plugged solid. As I said before, there is no mechanical process for which the oil control rings lose tension unless the engine was overheated or run without oil which would have caused the oil control ring metal to "anneal" (never mind other damage). Annealing is rearrangement of the atoms inside the metal when you exceed a critical temperature. As you can imagine, the oil control ring metal is selected such that this annealing phenomenon does not occur at normal control ring and engine operating temperatures. Below that critical temperature, they simply don't lose tension. There is no physical mechanism for them to do so. This is not taking bets for fun; This is a material science phenomenon that is well understood.

A mechanism for the tension in the ring to be thwarted is if the ring itself has become seized inside the ringland due to deposits.

[silver_tt]

Without getting into a deep debate I don't think you fully understand or know what you are talking about. Rings can lose their tension, especially low tension rings like Audi already put in this engine to get more MPG. But I am going to know the results soon enough so we don't need to argue and I will tell you what I find even if I am wrong. I will qualitatively know how much tension is left in the rings and there will be nothing to debate.

You have to let the science guide you here with the results of the test -- not what you are maybe hoping or wanting to hear. I have no skin in the game at this point and zero bias with new pistons in my engine and I have done 1,000 miles without burning a drop of oil. I changed my oil for the first time yesterday and it was the first time in a long time that I extracted 5 quarts and didn't have to add a drop between OCIs.......

[Theiceman]

Without getting into a deep debate I don't think you fully understand or know what you are talking about. Rings can lose their tension, especially low tension rings like Audi already put in this engine to get more MPG. But I am going to know the results soon enough so we don't need to argue and I will tell you what I find even if I am wrong. I will qualitatively know how much tension is left in the rings and there will be nothing to debate.

You have to let the science guide you here with the results of the test -- not what you are maybe hoping or wanting to hear. I have no skin in the game at this point and zero bias with new pistons in my engine and I have done 1,000 miles without burning a drop of oil. I changed my oil for the first time yesterday and it was the first time in a long time that I extracted 5 quarts and didn't have to add a drop between OCIs.......

my question would be what does good look like ? or does Charles have this data ?

[silver_tt]

Charles has this data for sure. Your question was the same as mine and first thing I asked him, "how would I know what the tension was of the factory pistons/rings I took out when they were brand new to compare against?"

Charles is building engines for a living so I think this is data he has and has had for a long time. Granted they are Porsche engines but he also owns a 2.0T and the Porsche engines work with all the same manufacturers.. Kolbenschmidt, Mahle, etc... At worst case Lake is on the email thread too and he is working for Total Seal developing ring packages these days, so I would think between the two of them I pretty much have dialed into the best two people on the planet to give me an opinion and that should be simple for them given their experience. I will find out more soon once the test is done.

[Theiceman]

Bottom line is this .. ICE cars have been around a hundred years .. shocking that this would come up after building pistons for how long ? Audi saw this issue .. replaced pistons with a different design , and problem is 100% gone so we know its an issue with the piston design. The rest is just conjecture. shouldn't need magical potions to get it back to start again .. so it can have the same issue again. Whether potions works or they dont is irrelevant . The issue is the pistons/rings

[silver_tt]

This is why I didn't mess with a piston soak. My engine is proof that you can run one of the best oils money can buy and these rings will still fail. So instead I decided to go back to a flex vent style oil control ring (DM pistons) that has worked great for decades. But we know Audi almost for sure went to the ring design that is crap for increased fuel economy and because once you are out of warranty they don't give a shit, your engine can fail and then you will have to buy a new car. They are using the same ring design in the 3.0T too which seems to have the oil consumption issue even worse than the 2.0T. Go over to the Q7 forum or that troll that spam posts in every thread on AW and see tons of people with 50-80K miles on the 3.0T that are DRINKING oil, burning valves, etc. If you let high oil consumption go on without doing anything about it you risk collateral damage so once you see the problem you might as well kill it on the spot. High fuel dilution is one of the worst things you can have in an engine.

333313

[A4Qwattro]

Bottom line is this .. ICE cars have been around a hundred years .. shocking that this would come up after building pistons for how long ? Audi saw this issue .. replaced pistons with a different design , and problem is 100% gone so we know its an issue with the piston design. The rest is just conjecture. shouldn't need magical potions to get it back to start again .. so it can have the same issue again. Whether potions works or they dont is irrelevant . The issue is the pistons/rings

Of course cars shouldn't have any problems at all, but for many people at the mileage that this problem starts to affect the cars, the car is not worth the investment to have a non-warranty ring job done.

You can flagellate all you want about doing ring jobs in your garage but that is not the reality for the average consumer. The piston soak is going to be the most cost effective way to get another few years out of the car.

To justify the cost of replacing rings and pistons, you'd need to expect to get another life cycle out of the car. Many owners will not have their cars 10 years from now for many other reasons so it doesn't make much sense to "fix it the right way". Your solution isn't actually practical or sensible for most on here. It doesn't matter if B12 soak is a band-aid. Full outside of warranty piston and ring jobs at a shop is not worth it for most people who run into this issue.

[silver_tt]

I disagree. Forget the dealer, you can repiston this engine for a minimum of $1,000 in parts and ~$2,000 in labor. I spent $3,000 in parts because I threw the kitchen sink at it and to me I plan to keep the car forever and I am an ethical person....if I ever sell the car to someone later I want to sell them a "good car". I know this engine can easily do 250K miles if it's maintained. It's effectively free to add on things like new injectors, motor mounts, water pump, etc, etc when the engine is out. A good indy can do this job in 8+ hours. If you've never done the job before and are decent at wrenching it would take you probably 5 times that long.

This is an easy engine to work on in several regards compared to others that I have worked with, it's not as expensive as you are thinking.... it would cost you more money to have much smaller jobs done at a dealer.

[Theiceman]

i think at the time mine was around 1500 in parts, parts i have noticed have gone up a fair bit since then.

i did extra stuff as pointed out too such as all timing gear , water pump assembly , motor mounts etc.

[A4Qwattro]

I disagree. Forget the dealer, you can repiston this engine for a minimum of $1,000 in parts and ~$2,000 in labor.

if I ever sell the car to someone later I want to sell them a "good car".


Why would the average consumer spend $3000 on a 10-15 year old base model german car with over 130,000 miles on it? Normal consumers should not pay for engine rebuilds. That same sunk cost could go towards depreciation and financing cost on a newer, nicer car. These cars are not rare or collectables (well they are becoming rare due to the number dying from accidents and unresolved oil consumption, but that's another discussion). The Audi will probably need wheel bearings, control arms, tires, brakes, timing job, water pumps and everything else. It's $3000 and then thousands of dollars in other repairs that these cars typically need if you can't do the work yourself. I would never pay someone to rebuild an engine on these cars. It will definitely not be a 3k job either. More like 5K minimum to pull an engine and rebuild it. If you aren't doing it yourself it's a terrible financial decision.

That's before even mentioning the fact that replacing pistons and rings may not even fix the issue. You look like a real idiot spending $3000 only for someone to tell you the cylinders have ovaled and the engine block is scrap.




if I ever sell the car to someone later I want to sell them a "good car".

The average consumer doesn't prep their car for the next owner. It's of no consideration to them. They are often trying to pawn off their problem cars on buyers who don't do their research. Why else do you think so many of these are sold WITH undisclosed oil consumption issues [facepalm]

[KnappAttack]

Isn't Valvoline Restore & Protect not meeting VW standards? 502.00 or 505.00?

Correct, It meets no Euro oil specifications. Does it really matter if it works and shows low wear metals? Look what the Euro oils have done for the low tension rings in these things sticking the up like they do. The Euro oils certainaly do nothing to keep things clean and the rings free, so why continue to go down that same road expecting different results?


The Berryman's B12 works to free the stuck rings up when done correctly and open the oil drain holes in the pistons. So many have gone from drinking lots of oil, to not using any at all with great success. Just read the results on the YouTube videos. IMO Euro oil is not needed in these engines if not doing extend drains here in the US. Reason I say that is we don't have the Autobahn here and are not running high oil temps where we need the HT/HS. The engine are far less stressed here in the states vs running the high speeds and high oil temps on the Autobahn. Stick to 5000 mile drain intervals on the VR&P all will be well it would seem. There is a 2000 mile run I posted on BITOG from a fellow that sampled the VR&P on the Q7 on the AudiWorld Q7 forum, and it shows nice low wear metals. If there is low wear where's the issue running it? Science will tell you how good the oil is. If the wear is low and the VR&P actually cleans the piston deposits in the ring land of the oil control ring, seems to me to be a pretty nice deal to keep the rings from sticking. Having you cake and eating it too. Something that cant be said for some of the "Audi approved oils" and what has happened on the oil consumption front. Piston ring land deposits are the enemy to low tension piston rings. They will stick every time with enough miles, no matter the engine. But low tension rings make HP and fuel mileage, so thats the reason they get used in the first place. Figured out a way to keep the pistons clean and there will be no problems.....

[A4Qwattro]

Reposting from a dealer on Audiworld:


Hey guys! I have a '15 Q7 with the 3.0T. I hit 130k and it started taking a quart every 300-400mi which seems super common.

I ran it on Rotella T6 for 10k miles with EPR and MOA / from BG along with 2 cans of 44k every fill up.

I am now running it on Valvoline R&P. The oil consumption has stopped.

I was trying not to do the B12, as it seems difficult on the 3.0T. We as a dealership do the B12 soak on the 2.0T's all day everyday.

The R&P even smells very odd. Very very good stuff, and BG is excellent as well. Their dynamic flush has a 50/50 chance of working on the oil consumption we have found out.

[silver_tt]

Why would the average consumer spend $3000 on a 10-15 year old base model german car with over 130,000 miles on it? Normal consumers should not pay for engine rebuilds. That same sunk cost could go towards depreciation and financing cost on a newer, nicer car. These cars are not rare or collectables (well they are becoming rare due to the number dying from accidents and unresolved oil consumption, but that's another discussion). The Audi will probably need wheel bearings, control arms, tires, brakes, timing job, water pumps and everything else. It's $3000 and then thousands of dollars in other repairs that these cars typically need if you can't do the work yourself. I would never pay someone to rebuild an engine on these cars. It will definitely not be a 3k job either. More like 5K minimum to pull an engine and rebuild it. If you aren't doing it yourself it's a terrible financial decision.

That's before even mentioning the fact that replacing pistons and rings may not even fix the issue. You look like a real idiot spending $3000 only for someone to tell you the cylinders have ovaled and the engine block is scrap.




The average consumer doesn't prep their car for the next owner. It's of no consideration to them. They are often trying to pawn off their problem cars on buyers who don't do their research. Why else do you think so many of these are sold WITH undisclosed oil consumption issues [facepalm]


You are telling me this isn't a $3K job when I just did it last month and you have never done it (I even have a thread where I posted all the parts and you could add it up). Why would I spend $3K on a car with 135K miles on it? This is a stupid question. To get another 135K miles out of it. This is a great car, except for the oil consumption it's fantastic. I work in "high finance" and I can tell you that your math and financial awareness is lacking. Buying new cars is one of the most stupid investments you can make. I also never finance my cars, I buy them in cash. Dead serious that if you can't afford a $3K repair on your car then you should look into buying a bus pass. Any car is going to need wear items like brakes, your logic is riddled with errors.

I don't care what the average consumer does because the average person is not that savvy. Look at how many people service the car at the dealer and almost anything you have done there is going to be more than $3K. Problems with the car that people are too lazy or stupid to fix is the reason I was able to buy this car CPO with a full warranty from Audi in 2017 when it was 3 years old for half of the sticker price new. Some sucker paid full price and drove the car 45K miles around NY/NJ and then sold it back to Audi to take a bath on it so I could pick it up for 50 cents on the dollar.

[silver_tt]

Correct, It meets no Euro oil specifications. Does it really matter if it works and shows low wear metals? Look what the Euro oils have done for the low tension rings in these things sticking the up like they do. The Euro oils certainaly do nothing to keep things clean and the rings free, so why continue to go down that same road expecting different results?


The Berryman's B12 works to free the stuck rings up when done correctly and open the oil drain holes in the pistons. So many have gone from drinking lots of oil, to not using any at all with great success. Just read the results on the YouTube videos. IMO Euro oil is not needed in these engines if not doing extend drains here in the US. Reason I say that is we don't have the Autobahn here and are not running high oil temps where we need the HT/HS. The engine are far less stressed here in the states vs running the high speeds and high oil temps on the Autobahn. Stick to 5000 mile drain intervals on the VR&P all will be well it would seem. There is a 2000 mile run I posted on BITOG from a fellow that sampled the VR&P on the Q7 on the AudiWorld Q7 forum, and it shows nice low wear metals. If there is low wear where's the issue running it? Science will tell you how good the oil is. If the wear is low and the VR&P actually cleans the piston deposits in the ring land of the oil control ring, seems to me to be a pretty nice deal to keep the rings from sticking. Having you cake and eating it too. Something that cant be said for some of the "Audi approved oils" and what has happened on the oil consumption front. Piston ring land deposits are the enemy to low tension piston rings. They will stick every time with enough miles, no matter the engine. But low tension rings make HP and fuel mileage, so thats the reason they get used in the first place. Figured out a way to keep the pistons clean and there will be no problems.....

Approved oils mean nothing you are right, but for the wrong reason. I am guessing you have never been to Germany or spent very little time driving on the Autobahn. Most of the Autobahn is not unlimited speed and when it is it's usually for very short bursts, most of the time on the autobahn you are not driving that fast and if it's a holiday weekend traffic is stop and go. You are also the one on AW that told me the reason the restore oil didn't work for me was because I wasn't running the engine real hard constantly doing "Italian tuneups", this is a completely ridiculous statement.

[A4Qwattro]

You are telling me this isn't a $3K job when I just did it last month and you have never done it

You did it in your garage...Most people are paying a shop 5k+ if they want it done.



Why would I spend $3K on a car with 135K miles on it? This is a stupid question. To get another 135K miles out of it.


A lot of the people coming onto the forum or reddit with the problem are not looking to get another 135k miles out of it, which is why a full rebuild makes no sense for them. They are bringing in cars with 150,000+ miles on them.



This is a great car, except for the oil consumption it's fantastic.



It's a great car for people who know how to work on cars and pull engines. That is a small minority of consumer.



I work in "high finance" and I can tell you that your math and financial awareness is lacking. Buying new cars is one of the most stupid investments you can make. I also never finance my cars, I buy them in cash. Dead serious that if you can't afford a $3K repair on your car then you should look into buying a bus pass. Any car is going to need wear items like brakes, your logic is riddled with errors.


I never said you had to buy a "new" car. I said you could buy a "newer car", one that has been freshly leased and already depreciated and still has a warranty. You say you work in "high finance", then you should be smart enough to know you should take advantage of a low APR car loan when given the opportunity because that "cash" is worth more in a stock market or towards a business. You should know these things, Mr. "high finance". Furthermore, there's no guarantee after the rebuild that you won't continue burning. There are people who rebuilt there's and it still burned. They found out it's still burning because the cylinders were no longer round after the deposits scratched the cylinder walls. Even a piston rebuild is a gamble. You are fortunate that your cylinders are still round. If I bought one of these with higher miles and had been burning oil for god know's how long, it would be utter insanity to gamble that simply replacing the pistons at a cost of $5k+ would stop the burning. It is not a matter of affording a 3K repair on any car. 3k on a Lamborghini, sure. 3K on a car that is worth 3-4k (like your average B8 A4), then no. It is a poor use of money.



I don't care what the average consumer does because the average person is not that savvy. Look at how many people service the car at the dealer and almost anything you have done there is going to be more than $3K. Problems with the car that people are too lazy or stupid to fix is the reason I was able to buy this car CPO with a full warranty from Audi in 2017 when it was 3 years old for half of the sticker price new. Some sucker paid full price and drove the car 45K miles around NY/NJ and then sold it back to Audi to take a bath on it so I could pick it up for 50 cents on the dollar.


You are writing under a false pretense of superiority because you know how to fix a car. In the real world, most people do not need to know how to fix a car and this is not a flaw. Doctors, surgeons, airline pilots, professors, bureaucrats, C-suites, and all manner of jobs of highly intelligent people do not need to also be auto-repairmen. It doesn't make them lesser than you. They are not stupid or lazy. That's how the world works. You pawn off less valuable intelligence to others. Time is money. Their time may be worth more in their professions and with their families than becoming a weekend warrior for car maintenance.

Like I said in the beginning, the average person should have a piston soak done and send it. It's not deeper than that. Paying for a piston job is a waste of time and money for a car that they will not be driving 135000 miles later. These cars are not rare or collectables. This is no G model.

[STXA7]

I read all the arguing and wow can you two get a room [>_<] good job keeping it civil though both of u. I'm no barryman zealot but agree it can be more affordable intermediate remedy than rebuilding the engine

[lhlan]

Approved oils mean nothing you are right, but for the wrong reason. I am guessing you have never been to Germany or spent very little time driving on the Autobahn. Most of the Autobahn is not unlimited speed and when it is it's usually for very short bursts, most of the time on the autobahn you are not driving that fast and if it's a holiday weekend traffic is stop and go. You are also the one on AW that told me the reason the restore oil didn't work for me was because I wasn't running the engine real hard constantly doing "Italian tuneups", this is a completely ridiculous statement.

Can you elaborate more please? The being approved is not that important? I am tempted to use the Restore and Protect and am still concerned about it being not approved.

It's a relief to learn "being approved" means nothing, so that I can just use it without worrying too much.

[Bolshoi]

Generally speaking I don't entirely understand coming to this thread to tell people to rebuild their engines. There are plenty of threads for that. At this point everyone who has done a B12 soak properly is incredibly glad they did. It stops oil consumption for $20. For the majority of people here with cars worth $4-10k this is the only logical thing to do.

Would I rather have a rebuilt engine? Obviously. I'm not dumb enough to pay for that though, especially now that a year later I still haven't burned a drop of oil.

There also seem to be quite a few people here who value their time at exactly $0, the 30 hours of labor and 3 weeks your car was in pieces in your garage apparently mean nothing when rebuilding.

Frankly I don't even understand how this is a discussion anymore. These cars aren't worth anything, and if you're rebuilding for oil consumption in 2024, it is a completely self-indulgent activity that you don't need to justify or argue on the internet.

[silver_tt]

Can you elaborate more please? The being approved is not that important? I am tempted to use the Restore and Protect and am still concerned about it being not approved.

It's a relief to learn "being approved" means nothing, so that I can just use it without worrying too much.

You can use Restore and Protect if you want to without any worry. I was using Cummins Valvoline Restore which is not approved and is a diesel oil in my petrol engine for example. Being an approved oil has to do with things like fuel economy (which allows the manufacturer to post better MPG and CAFE numbers at the expense of higher wear on your engine which means it won't last as long). If you look at approved oils you won't see any boutique oils listed which often outperform mainstream oils because they use things like higher levels of ZDDP.



Generally speaking I don't entirely understand coming to this thread to tell people to rebuild their engines. There are plenty of threads for that. At this point everyone who has done a B12 soak properly is incredibly glad they did. It stops oil consumption for $20. For the majority of people here with cars worth $4-10k this is the only logical thing to do.

Would I rather have a rebuilt engine? Obviously. I'm not dumb enough to pay for that though, especially now that a year later I still haven't burned a drop of oil.

There also seem to be quite a few people here who value their time at exactly $0, the 30 hours of labor and 3 weeks your car was in pieces in your garage apparently mean nothing when rebuilding.

Frankly I don't even understand how this is a discussion anymore. These cars aren't worth anything, and if you're rebuilding for oil consumption in 2024, it is a completely self-indulgent activity that you don't need to justify or argue on the internet.

No one is saying don't use B12. My engine was rebuilt in one day in 10 hours. My only point was to try to let people know that you could have an indy do it for $3K all in if you only wanted new pistons and nothing else, it is not that expensive.

The car might not be worth a lot to sell it back to a dealer or private sale, but it has value in that to buy a new car is going to cost a lot of money, so it's about the opportunity cost. In the end people can do what they want. If you can get another 100K+ miles out of the engine using a piston soak no doubt more power to you but I suspect you will have to keep doing it. You might burn a valve in the meantime, you might not.... no one is wishing you any ill will and we appreciate you posting this information.

[lhlan]

You can use Restore and Protect if you want to without any worry. I was using Cummins Valvoline Restore which is not approved and is a diesel oil in my petrol engine for example. Being an approved oil has to do with things like fuel economy (which allows the manufacturer to post better MPG and CAFE numbers at the expense of higher wear on your engine which means it won't last as long). If you look at approved oils you won't see any boutique oils listed which often outperform mainstream oils because they use things like higher levels of ZDDP.

Thanks, my next oil change will be Valvoline Restore and Protect then.

As for the next top up, should I use Valvoline R&R or stay with my current stuff (Castrol Magnatec C3)? Both are 5W-30

[silver_tt]

Thanks, my next oil change will be Valvoline Restore and Protect then.

As for the next top up, should I use Valvoline R&R or stay with my current stuff (Castrol Magnatec C3)? Both are 5W-30

You should definitely top up with R&P if you are using R&P. Always top up with the same oil you are running unless it's an emergency and you can't.

Each oil has its own specific chemistry so if you mix there will be cross contamination. Depending on the two chemistries you mix there can be additive clash. This is also the reason that you should run the R&R for several OCIs. Generally speaking when you switch oils you should always try to run the oil for at least 2-3 OCIs because when you drain your engine, even using the drain plug vs extraction, you are not getting all of the oil out of the engine.

[lhlan]

You should definitely top up with R&R if you are using R&R. Always top up with the same oil you are running unless it's an emergency and you can't.

Each oil has its own specific chemistry so if you mix there will be cross contamination. Depending on the two chemistries you mix there can be additive clash. This is also the reason that you should run the R&R for several OCIs. Generally speaking when you switch oils you should always try to run the oil for at least 2-3 OCIs because when you drain your engine, even using the drain plug vs extraction, you are not getting all of the oil out of the engine.

Got your point. When I need to top up next I would do an oil change with R&R then.

Observation: I had been using Fuschs GT1 5w-40 for ages and burnt 1L for every 8,000 km. On last oil change the mechanics switched to Castrol 5w-30 and the car has been doubled or tripled the rate of burns. Contamination to be blamed here!

Thanks

[silver_tt]

Yes during the period of cross contamination you can have higher oil consumption due to the additives clashing.

[JLAllroad]

You should definitely top up with R&P if you are using R&P. Always top up with the same oil you are running unless it's an emergency and you can't.

Each oil has its own specific chemistry so if you mix there will be cross contamination. Depending on the two chemistries you mix there can be additive clash. This is also the reason that you should run the R&R for several OCIs. Generally speaking when you switch oils you should always try to run the oil for at least 2-3 OCIs because when you drain your engine, even using the drain plug vs extraction, you are not getting all of the oil out of the engine.

Didn’t you only run a single OCI with R&R?


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[silver_tt]

Didn’t you only run a single OCI with R&R?


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I actually didn't use the Restore and Protect. I used the more aggressive Cummins Valvoline Restore, which is a different product and one you can only buy from a Cummins dealer.

I ran 3 OCIs of approximately 1,500 miles each (the last OCI was about 2,000 miles) for a total of 5,100 miles. After speaking to Lake he said it should have worked in 3,000 to 5,000 miles so after I got to 5,000 miles I threw in the towel.

[JLAllroad]

I actually didn't use the Restore and Protect. I used the more aggressive Cummins Valvoline Restore, which is a different product and one you can only buy from a Cummins dealer.

I ran 3 OCIs of approximately 1,500 miles each (the last OCI was about 2,000 miles) for a total of 5,100 miles. After speaking to Lake he said it should have worked in 3,000 to 5,000 miles so after I got to 5,000 miles I threw in the towel.

A thought, basically you did one OCI of mileage, granted with full detergent load over multiple changes, but many (my 8800 OCI included) show plenty of detergent to continue, more a marathon vs a sprint…..at least that’s how Valvoline would explain and prefer the process, seems Lake missed that point.


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[silver_tt]

A thought, basically you did one OCI of mileage, granted with full detergent load over multiple changes, but many (my 8800 OCI included) show plenty of detergent to continue, more a marathon vs a sprint…..at least that’s how Valvoline would explain and prefer the process, seems Lake missed that point.


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The Restore and Protect is an oil designed to be used continually so what you are saying applies more to it than the more aggressive Cummins product which was designed for Cummins diesel engines. Lake has experience using the Cummins product and I also took a trip to LN Engineering to get a second opinion and discuss it with Charles since both he and Jake have used it on bore scored 911s for people that want to keep driving the car until their engine is up for a rebuild. In 5K miles I saw zero change in consumption, actually it accelerated and got considerably worse by the last 2,000 mile OCI. The Cummins product is an ester base stock with high Magnesium and it's $80+ for 3 liters... to keep running it at the rate of consumption I was at would have been, if nothing else, quite expensive. When I started with the product I was around 1 quart per 1,000 miles... by the time I finished it was more like a quart every ~500 miles. So my engine started having a heart attack during the marathon and it was time to quit.

[JLAllroad]

The Restore and Protect is an oil designed to be used continually so what you are saying applies more to it than the more aggressive Cummins product which was designed for Cummins diesel engines. Lake has experience using the Cummins product and I also took a trip to LN Engineering to get a second opinion and discuss it with Charles since both he and Jake have used it on bore scored 911s for people that want to keep driving the car until their engine is up for a rebuild. In 5K miles I saw zero change in consumption, actually it accelerated and got considerably worse by the last 2,000 mile OCI. The Cummins product is an ester base stock with high Magnesium and it's $80+ for 3 liters... to keep running it at the rate of consumption I was at would have been, if nothing else, quite expensive. When I started with the product I was around 1 quart per 1,000 miles... by the time I finished it was more like a quart every ~500 miles. So my engine started having a heart attack during the marathon and it was time to quit.

What was your plan if it reduced consumption?


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[silver_tt]

What was your plan if it reduced consumption?


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If it reduced consumption completely I would have switched back to DI40 like I always use and then used it again later if consumption started up again. If it reduced consumption but the engine was still burning some oil I would have kept using it for more OCIs as it moved in that direction until it got to a more acceptable level.

If it worked it would have been a good solution. It's much easier than a piston soak. There's a guy over on AW right now that tried to do a piston soak last week but now he can't turn the crank once it gets to a certain point and has to tow the car into a shop..... the spark plugs are not in so it's not hydrolocked.

[JLAllroad]

If it reduced consumption completely I would have switched back to DI40 like I always use and then used it again later if consumption started up again. If it reduced consumption but the engine was still burning some oil I would have kept using it for more OCIs as it moved in that direction until it got to a more acceptable level.

If it worked it would have been a good solution. It's much easier than a piston soak. There's a guy over on AW right now that tried to do a piston soak last week but now he can't turn the crank once it gets to a certain point and has to tow the car into a shop..... the spark plugs are not in so it's not hydrolocked.

It’s just interesting that you used something that had it worked would continue to drive vs something proven to work and called it a “bandaid”.

Guy you mentioned probably has a piece of carbon binding….there are ways to work through that……but I always say with these, if it works bonus, if it doesn’t, rebuild or replace as you did, just know that up front.


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[silver_tt]

It’s just interesting that you used something that had it worked would continue to drive vs something proven to work and called it a “bandaid”.

Guy you mentioned probably has a piece of carbon binding….there are ways to work through that……but I always say with these, if it works bonus, if it doesn’t, rebuild or replace as you did, just know that up front.


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Valid point but both solutions are a Band Aid and the piston soak comes with much more risk vs running an oil and isn't as effortless. Yes for the AW guy it probably is a piece of carbon but my point being this isn't going to be such an easy solution for the layman like it's being sold as. At the end of the day the root cause of the problem is that the rings are crap, that's why the -DM pistons use the traditional design not what came from the factory. Once I know if the tension of my rings is the root cause that will be the nail in the coffin. If people want to do a piston soak, I am not trying to stop them and I wish them the very best of luck, but you can just kill it on the spot and be done with it using new pistons for $3K if you want to go that route.

[lhlan]

If it reduced consumption completely I would have switched back to DI40 like I always use and then used it again later if consumption started up again. If it reduced consumption but the engine was still burning some oil I would have kept using it for more OCIs as it moved in that direction until it got to a more acceptable level.

If it worked it would have been a good solution. It's much easier than a piston soak. There's a guy over on AW right now that tried to do a piston soak last week but now he can't turn the crank once it gets to a certain point and has to tow the car into a shop..... the spark plugs are not in so it's not hydrolocked.

I agree it is a much easier solution. Arming with what you advised me, I reckon it would even be safer.

Having said that. You could have tried the B12. Worst case had you not been able to crank, you would still have had the option of rebuilding.

Decision tree:
1. Does Cumming work? YES -> go to END; NO -> go to step 2
2. Does B12 work? YES -> go to END; NO -> go to step 3
3. Does rebuilding work? YES -> go to END; NO -> go to END anyway
END

[JLAllroad]

Valid point but both solutions are a Band Aid and the piston soak comes with much more risk vs running an oil and isn't as effortless. Yes for the AW guy it probably is a piece of carbon but my point being this isn't going to be such an easy solution for the layman like it's being sold as. At the end of the day the root cause of the problem is that the rings are crap, that's why the -DM pistons use the traditional design not what came from the factory. Once I know if the tension of my rings is the root cause that will be the nail in the coffin. If people want to do a piston soak, I am not trying to stop them and I wish them the very best of luck, but you can just kill it on the spot and be done with it using new pistons for $3K if you want to go that route.

Note, piston/ring replacements have not always been a proven solution….be it B8-B8.5 variants or dealer replacements of both….another bandaid, and or variables of cause.


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[silver_tt]

Note, piston/ring replacements have not always been a proven solution….be it B8-B8.5 variants or dealer replacements of both….another bandaid, and or variables of cause.


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Says who? Look at someone like SMac who had his factory pistons replaced by the dealer at 70K miles due to excessive oil consumption and has since done ~200K miles with no consumption between 5K mile OCIs. The 2 piece ring this car comes with from the factory is known to develop this issue on a range of vehicles and the 3 piece ring it gets replaced with isn't -- it's been used in millions of engines including every Porsche I have ever seen and they don't have oil consumption issues. Which solution are you suggesting isn't a Band Aid?

[A4Qwattro]

Says who? Look at someone like SMac who had his factory pistons replaced by the dealer at 70K miles due to excessive oil consumption and has since done ~200K miles with no consumption between 5K mile OCIs. The 2 piece ring this car comes with from the factory is known to develop this issue on a range of vehicles and the 3 piece ring it gets replaced with isn't -- it's been used in millions of engines including every Porsche I have ever seen and they don't have oil consumption issues. Which solution are you suggesting isn't a Band Aid?

Pistons and rings don't always fix the problem.
https://www.audizine.com/forum/showthread.php/776083-Q5-burning-oil-post-piston-ring-replacement


Ill try and keep this brief. I own a 2012 Q5 2.0 PP with approx 115000 miles....The GM spoke with Audi corp and agreed to do and pay for the oil consumption test. It failed. They agreed to replace the pistons and rings at no cost to me which I was very grateful BUT it did not fix the problem..... My wife has since driven 5000 miles and is on her third top off. She is burning approx 1100 miles per qt..... .
Does anyone have this issue? Also wondering what the next step will be....


We just got word today that the second consumption test failed. Looks like we will be in a loaner for a while. They said they will be checking the pistons again. A recent email from the corp person I'm working with basically said the plan is to return my vehicle to the proper audi specs. no matter the repair needed. It's great to hear they are owning the problem with the 2.0's My faith in audi is being restored.



The problem ended up being a bad engine block. Apparently the cylinders were oval instead of round. New block, pistons and rings were the fix.
I've had the car a couple days and looks like the fix worked! Very excited to be done with this mess. So happy Audi owned the problem.


Ovaled cylinders at 115,000 miles. This is one of a handful of stories I have heard that ended this way.