the official ebay K04 thread

[Mars2]

Boost isn’t the only way you make power. Have you ever considered that you might be making more power now with less boost? You guys were asking for way too much out of these tiny turbos. Hot inefficient air does not make power.


Sent from my iPhone using Audizine (http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=87676)

I can tell you I make way more power/torque midrange at 28PSI than I do with 23psi. The last week doing test for JB4 guy's I did a lot of forth and back between map's with 23 and 28 psi. All with same timing. Every time i put the map with 23 psi I feel the car is so slow in the midrange rpm. Any way it will soon go back on the same dyno and I will see how much Power/torque I gain. One thing I'm on E85 so increasing boost does not change my timing. I guess i might not have same result's with 91

to go back on the dyno I just need to find time to put back my crack pressure to what it was before those testing and adjust boost curve with JB4. Hope this weekend I can find this time.

[Mars2]

It is a bagged of mixed emotions to finally have it working smoothly but I have to sacrifice so some torque and boost and my plans for e85

But hey at least the meth is back on.

What good was being first in the world to direct port a b8 stock manifold and then not be able to use it for 6 months

With your fueling upgrade I'm 90% sure you could try E42 ( half tank of E85) with your APR 100 octane map. MED17.1 can adjust LTFT up to +25%. Just take it easy until you see that LTFT has finish to learn adjustment.

[EvolutionArmory]

I can tell you I make way more power/torque midrange at 28PSI than I do with 23psi. The last week doing test for JB4 guy's I did a lot of forth and back between map's with 23 and 28 psi. All with same timing. Every time i put the map with 23 psi I feel the car is so slow in the midrange rpm. Any way it will soon go back on the same dyno and I will see how much Power/torque I gain. One thing I'm on E85 so increasing boost does not change my timing. I guess i might not have same result's with 91

to go back on the dyno I just need to find time to put back my crack pressure to what it was before those testing and adjust boost curve with JB4. Hope this weekend I can find this time.

And these cars will always make good torque figures. There’s a point where too much boost can make you lose power. Once you go too far out of the efficiency range, all you’re doing is blowing hot air, raising EGT’s and combustion temp. More boost crams more air into your manifold and combustion chamber but air density is as important as air flow or air volume. And hot air from a turbo trying to make 28 PSI when it was only designed to make 14 can actually make less power than that same car running 24 sometimes. Things like water meth and E85 REALLY help keep temps down but it’s still just physics.

When I was at the dyno 2 months ago I made adjustments with my MBC to let it overboost a little more. Peak torque went up, HP didn’t and sometime went down. What I ended up doing was setting it to a spot where it was a good balance of both.

For the boost levels and power ranges some of you guys are trying to hit, you totally bought the wrong turbo. You could make these goals with a bigger turbo running a much less aggressive tune much easier.

I bet the B8 A4 would do awesome with a mild boost GTX2860R or an EFR 6258 for example

[EvolutionArmory]

/\ this /\

Quite frankly I’m surprised nobody has broken anything serious yet. Hopefully Mars won’t melt a piston with that JB4 piggy back.

The fact that Tyler, their HP Tuners tuner is encouraging this isn’t very encouraging. 🤣

[Traptalk]

I can tell you I make way more power/torque midrange at 28PSI than I do with 23psi. The last week doing test for JB4 guy's I did a lot of forth and back between map's with 23 and 28 psi. All with same timing. Every time i put the map with 23 psi I feel the car is so slow in the midrange rpm. Any way it will soon go back on the same dyno and I will see how much Power/torque I gain. One thing I'm on E85 so increasing boost does not change my timing. I guess i might not have same result's with 91

to go back on the dyno I just need to find time to put back my crack pressure to what it was before those testing and adjust boost curve with JB4. Hope this weekend I can find this time.

What he said ^^

More peak boost will definitely provide a greater feeling of torque from the driver seat that sucks you back more and feels more engaging

But without having a dyno to actively test different ramp ups and taper its all guess work and dragy time refinement

These motors seem to be able to handle all the boost and the car definitely feels more alive, but oddly the apr almost seems quicker until peak boost. Feels faster even just creeping with foot off of both pedals. Too soon to make wot comparisons

Going just off of knock we aren’t getting much with 93 octane and 3 bar pressure ratios but maybe isn’t the best standalone gauge for motor health

Think JL was right about the adaptation period. Car seems to be getting some more low end tq and part throttle low end tq

[EvolutionArmory]

Yes but making more torque doesn’t necessarily make your car faster if your car is inefficient in the upper RPM’s. It might be quicker in a 1/8’th mile race but not a 1/4 mile.

Finding the right balance of torque and HP will make it more fun.


Sent from my iPhone using Audizine (http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=87676)

[Traptalk]

Yes but making more torque doesn’t necessarily make your car faster if your car is inefficient in the upper RPM’s. It might be quicker in a 1/8’th mile race but not a 1/4 mile.

Finding the right balance of torque and HP will make it more fun.


Sent from my iPhone using Audizine (http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=87676)

I think it’s fair to speculate that if the emphasis is put on tq you may sacrifice some hp and vice versa

Again without dyno-ing it is all guess work

[EvolutionArmory]

Wasn’t the whole point of this thread to make a K04 that can perform the same or better for less money than JHM or APR can do it for? So far it’s coming up short.

These cars already have a big fat torque curve. Even my inferior B7 makes 300 wheel torque at 3K and still has 250 at 6K. And that’s only at 20-22 PSI peak.

APR probably figured this out which is why they don’t try to boost the car to Jupiter and back.

The right balance of both will make for a faster car.




Sent from my iPhone using Audizine (http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=87676)

[Traptalk]

And again the real quest for higher boost is because the loba needs 2 bar to be any benefit over a k04 and so does Tyler’s turbo parts Canada hybrid for his b8

They told me this enhanced chra could handle 1.85 bar but they also told me since it’s stock k04 sizes and to start with a k04 tune and adjust from there.

What’s very interesting is when I first started tuning this new turbo we ran a file that was a flat 2.55 bar absolute request from 2k to redline. So right at the ecu limit and it barely made 260 g/s. We had to run 2.8+ bar (absolute) to hit 275-280g/s

Now on apr tune where it doesn’t even request 2.55 bar the entire time I’m making almost 20-25 g/s more on the top end and now in the 280-285g/s range

So wonder if the cam shaft positioning allows better flow, or their runner flap mapping, or even the lesser amount of fuel they use allows better atomization and improved the volumetric efficiency

[Traptalk]

Wasn’t the whole point of this thread to make a K04 that can perform the same or better for less money than JHM or APR can do it for? So far it’s coming up short.

These cars already have a big fat torque curve. Even my inferior B7 makes 300 wheel torque at 3K and still has 250 at 6K. And that’s only at 20-22 PSI peak.

APR probably figured this out which is why they don’t try to boost the car to Jupiter and back.

The right balance of both will make for a faster car.




Sent from my iPhone using Audizine (http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=87676)


I think I’ve proven my turbo is outperforming jhm turbos on the same software but waiting for Brandon K to chime in since a he’s also using apr 100 octane file with the jhm k04-r

Looks like we’re very similar in maf, I’m a tiny bit higher but I don’t know his elevation

He says his turbo runs out of boost and falls short of the request at 5500 where mine held strong to the autoshift in my log

[EvolutionArmory]

Yeah, the S4 also costs “thousands and thousands more”, just like fixing its dsg and so on. If you want cheap hp, s4 is not the best choice either, n54 335i used to be a lot more bang for the buck, not to mention a bunch of ls powered cars.

But does it really cost thousands and thousands more at this point?

2013 A4 10-16,000 dollars at the dealer. K04, tune, FMIC, exhaust 3,000 bucks or more for good stuff.

2013 S4 16-20,000 dollars at the dealer. Stage 1 tune, 500-1000

it is realistic that you could buy a used S4, get a stage 1 tune and make more power for less money than getting an A4 to do it.

and the S4 still has room to grow VS the A4 having hardly any more options. And the S4 is just a nicer optioned car in general.

[EvolutionArmory]

I think I’ve proven my turbo is outperforming jhm turbos on the same software but waiting for Brandon K to chime in since a he’s also using apr 100 octane file with the jhm k04-r

Looks like we’re very similar in maf, I’m a tiny bit higher but I don’t know his elevation

He says his turbo runs out of boost and falls short of the request at 5500 where mine held strong to the autoshift in my log

Hopefully you're right. You guys need to stop talking hypothetically and start doing Draggy and dyno runs. Or even REAL 1/4 mile slips. I know Draggy is super accurate for a box and it's been proven time and time again but it's still a box. And logs only get you so much info.

And you had your turbo ported and polished so what does comparing it to a non ported and polished turbo say? Nothing. He'd have to have his JHM turbo ported and polished for you to be able to say yours is better. You aren't comparing like things anymore.

[Perry01]

Having a lot of boost and torque down low is fun for everyday driving but for flat out acceleration, there is not much benefit. It’s all about what you have up top. You want lots of timing advance and boost in the upper range of your turbo’s efficiency (~20 PSI). High levels of boost in these small turbochargers create a lot of heat. High EGT’S and IAT’s will limit the amount of timing advance you have up top.

In a quarter mile run, ideally you launch at about 3600 RPM and then shifts are between 4500-5000 RPM. As you can see here that after 1st gear, the RPM needle doesn’t drop below 4800 RPM. So what doesn’t it matter how much torque you produce in the 3000-4500 RPM range?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eIiOPruK3IM

[EvolutionArmory]

Bingo. Winner winner chicken dinner. You’re always in upper RPM’s when racing. At that RPM, more boost down low doesn’t do much for you. It will make you giggle more when you’re showing off for your fiends on the street doing one gear logs though. 🤣


Sent from my iPhone using Audizine (http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=87676)

[Traptalk]

Hopefully you're right. You guys need to stop talking hypothetically and start doing Draggy and dyno runs. Or even REAL 1/4 mile slips. I know Draggy is super accurate for a box and it's been proven time and time again but it's still a box. And logs only get you so much info.

And you had your turbo ported and polished so what does comparing it to a non ported and polished turbo say? Nothing. He'd have to have his JHM turbo ported and polished for you to be able to say yours is better. You aren't comparing like things anymore.


Your splitting hairs I think. Who cares if it’s pnp or not. It’s still a comparison of what I’ve built and anyone can build versus a jhm offering

Can run dragys but today the winter tires are going on which definitely have a lower speed rating and are not ideal for speed. Nor sure how will effect times

Also running a 100 octane file with meth and most of these guys aren’t so not sure how my dragy really fits into the data sets we have going for pump gas

Think Shane’s low 12s dragy on apr 100 with his eBay turbo is the fastest time we have seen in b8 yet

[Traptalk]

I’ve had the tune for less than 48 hours and work 10 hour days and am being attacked for not dropping everything to run dragys for you lol

My season is over bro. We’ve gotten snow twice in past week but thankfully didn’t stick around.

And now we have data from shwiz using the same housing and chra but without pnp or coatings or a blanket

[Traptalk]

I think we are going to see that the PnP probably doesn’t offer much gain if at all with such a small turbo

[Traptalk]

But at least with the ecu out of the way I can focus on getting the tcu how I like it with the assistance bg.sq5

Optimistic for spring when it’s still cool and not humid

[EvolutionArmory]

I’ve had the tune for less than 48 hours and work 10 hour days and am being attacked for not dropping everything to run dragys for you lol

My season is over bro. We’ve gotten snow twice in past week but thankfully didn’t stick around.

And now we have data from shwiz using the same housing and chra but without pnp or coatings or a blanket

I can’t help that you feel my comments are a personal attack on you. I’m not saying you gotta do it right now bud 🤣

All I’m saying is this thread is filled with a ton of speculation with almost no real world proof.

People saying their eBay turbos are better than JHM or CTS with no proof.

People saying their custom tuner is great with no real results yet.

People following the leader with no real world results.

I’m just saying people gotta start showing their work. [emoji3]




Sent from my iPhone using Audizine (http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=87676)

[Traptalk]

Fair enough

[Perry01]

I can’t help that you feel my comments are a personal attack on you. I’m not saying you gotta do it right now bud 🤣

All I’m saying is this thread is filled with a ton of speculation with almost no real world proof.

People saying their custom tuner is great with no real results yet.

People following the leader with no real world results.

I’m just saying people gotta start showing their work. [emoji3]

OK, here are some results from yesterday. The file is for sea level in Hawaii. Fuel is 91 octane, temp was 35°F and elevation 5000 feet. I’m going to send these logs to IE and see if they can adjust for the change in elevation by closing the wastegate some for a little bit more boost. I’m not meeting requested boost anywhere in the RPM range. I am surprised to see 264 g/s though. 12° of timing advance it’s not bad for 91 octane gasoline.

https://i.postimg.cc/sfSftRJH/831-C5-DDC-3656-430-D-B7-F8-D75-D22-C63-FD7.jpg (https://postimages.org/)

https://i.postimg.cc/0jgkbt9C/F8170-F20-B3-D6-4-E14-9-D47-CBC5-B5-CCD4-D4.jpg (https://postimages.org/)

https://i.postimg.cc/5ywxvw0W/4-E7-B0-A77-E5-B7-4-E01-B49-E-CB97518-EC077.jpg (https://postimages.org/)

[EvolutionArmory]

Elevation is a bitch. It’s funny that people were arguing with me before saying that altitude and weather doesn’t matter on a turbo car.

It sure looks like it matters to yours right now. [emoji20]


Sent from my iPhone using Audizine (http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=87676)

[AudiAR01]

I can’t help that you feel my comments are a personal attack on you. I’m not saying you gotta do it right now bud [emoji1787]

All I’m saying is this thread is filled with a ton of speculation with almost no real world proof.

People saying their eBay turbos are better than JHM or CTS with no proof.

People saying their custom tuner is great with no real results yet.

People following the leader with no real world results.

I’m just saying people gotta start showing their work. [emoji3]




Sent from my iPhone using Audizine (http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=87676)Im pretty sure jhm turbos are Chinese turbos with a tad more QC. And maybe stamped housings. As well as XS power, SRM, and most others. Where do you think turbos are made. JHM uses cxracing IC. Why do you think they would use actual BW turbos. With no mark up. That's not how business works. They have to make enough to pay overhead. I would bet my right nut they're Chinese turbos with better QC and they may add some stuff in house. I mean you can buy and or make BW tags and put on whatever turbo you have. With a rivet. Without an actual flow chart from that specific turbo there's no way to tell if they're genuine BW turbos.

2003 A6 2.7T 6spd Stage 1+ (motor pulled for stage 3+ upgrades)

2001 Allroad TIP Stage 1
2006 A3 2.0T 6spd Stage 1

[EvolutionArmory]

And you’re wrong about the JHM turbos. The guts are sourced from a UK parts supplier. I assume this is probably Melett as they are probably the biggest. And there are some BW parts too according to Jake. The CHRA is also the same CHRA as their RS6R turbos. That’s right from Jake’s mouth.

So no, the K04R is not just some China turbo marked up to 1600.

Their intercoolers on the other hand, that’s true. My small core JHM intercooler box still had remains of the CX Racing logo on it, which they tried to razor knife off but weren’t quite successful 🤣

But just because one product is eBay junk doesn’t mean they all are. I’m probably the most critical person there is when it comes to JHM but you have to be fair. Fair is fair.


Sent from my iPhone using Audizine (http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=87676)

[EvolutionArmory]

207924


Sent from my iPhone using Audizine (http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=87676)

[Iceman502]

OK, here are some results from yesterday. The file is for sea level in Hawaii. Fuel is 91 octane, temp was 35°F and elevation 5000 feet. I’m going to send these logs to IE and see if they can adjust for the change in elevation by closing the wastegate some for a little bit more boost. I’m not meeting requested boost anywhere in the RPM range. I am surprised to see 264 g/s though. 12° of timing advance it’s not bad for 91 octane gasoline.


If I had to take a guess, they're going to tell you you need to increase crack pressure on the wg. If they offer a software revision, I'm going to lose my mind....

[Perry01]

If I had to take a guess, they're going to tell you you need to increase crack pressure on the wg. If they offer a software revision, I'm going to lose my mind....

I’m not running their OTS file. My tune was written around the 9 PSI crack pressure my BW K04 came with. I sent them my logs this morning and got an email back within an hour saying that the’ll see what they can do. I’ve already had 38 revisions, what’s one more?

[AudiAR01]

And you’re wrong about the JHM turbos. The guts are sourced from a UK parts supplier. I assume this is probably Melett as they are probably the biggest. And there are some BW parts too according to Jake. The CHRA is also the same CHRA as their RS6R turbos. That’s right from Jake’s mouth.

So no, the K04R is not just some China turbo marked up to 1600.

Their intercoolers on the other hand, that’s true. My small core JHM intercooler box still had remains of the CX Racing logo on it, which they tried to razor knife off but weren’t quite successful [emoji1787]

But just because one product is eBay junk doesn’t mean they all are. I’m probably the most critical person there is when it comes to JHM but you have to be fair. Fair is fair.


Sent from my iPhone using Audizine (http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=87676)I would guess They use CHRA's from turbo rebuilders UK, they source melette, But as I said before I bet my right nut they're not BW housings on both the compressor side and exhaust side, hence why there's no BW tags. Bc BW DOES NOT SELL EITHER BY THEMSELVES. I called BW myself when I was sourcing my turbo housings. They specifically said they do not sell them individually. I was told my best bet was to find another manufacturer that made copies or buy blown k04s. And use those housings. So I know there's no way they're BW parts. Maybe the WG. But that'll be about it. There is a manufacturer in Croatia that has an old cast from BW that makes the exhaust housing. However they're not true BW exhaust housings. But are the same specs. They are where I sourced my exhaust housings.

Edit: I'm talking about the RS6 turbo kit for the 2.7t they carry. BTW
207950207949

2003 A6 2.7T 6spd Stage 1+ (motor pulled for stage 3+ upgrades)

2001 Allroad TIP Stage 1
2006 A3 2.0T 6spd Stage 1

[fastboatster]

But does it really cost thousands and thousands more at this point?

2013 A4 10-16,000 dollars at the dealer. K04, tune, FMIC, exhaust 3,000 bucks or more for good stuff.

2013 S4 16-20,000 dollars at the dealer. Stage 1 tune, 500-1000

it is realistic that you could buy a used S4, get a stage 1 tune and make more power for less money than getting an A4 to do it.

and the S4 still has room to grow VS the A4 having hardly any more options. And the S4 is just a nicer optioned car in general.
these S4 prices are not very realistic, at least not in my area. 13+ S4s are more like in 20k+ range, especially from the dealer. For 16k what I mostly see is some worn out 2010s with 150+kmiles. Bottom line is you need to spend at least 20k to get an S4 you won't have to dump a bunch of money and time into in short order and focus on tuning only. I should know, I bought one with high miles needing a new starter last year and then it was the trans and now it's "bulletproof" 3.0t engine. I can believe in 2013 A4 in that price range, though. Anyways, looks like k04 a4s can run with stage 1 s4s and that's more than good enough for me. I personally wouldn't tune my s4 to stage 2 because of all the problems it will cause such as melted cats and more. Do you know how much effort it is to replace those stinking cats on the s4? I'm not talking bundling up a bunch of swivel extensions (this, too) but lowering the engine with subframe and trans. The official manual is actually asking to remove the trans (10hrs labor by the book), so that's what you are likely to pay if you ask a shop to do it. This is a huge dealbreaker if you have visual inspections. You'll also be pushing stock superstupidcharger to and beyond the limits of its efficiency. You can only do so much with all those heat exchangers and methanol injection to lower high intake temps which are endemic to roots blowers. Again, you can install a chiller but that's also somewhat expensive. Anyways, stage2 on 3.0t and stock blower is just plain torturing the motor, and aftermarket blowers are $$, plus don't forget custom tuning as well. With all that shit done you will be right or past the doorsteps of f80 m3/m4 which are better cars, but that's going off tangent.
Anything higher than stage 2 also seems as unstable as Uranium 235 - that's for the S4's room to grow. Surely it can grow into a nice blast in the engine bay, lol) Plus, turbo options for A4 are not limited to k04, you suggested using something else yourself in your other post, so there's the room to grow for you.
It's kind of funny how a guy with 3.0t tries to convince a guy with no 3.0t that 3.0t is not all they hype it up to be.
If I was to try to build myself a fun Awdi, I'd get a very cheap B8 with confirmed oil consumption, these seem to cost nothing even where I am, and just put some higher spec internals into the engine. I'd get some bigger turbo and contact AGP Motorsports (a company which tuned that wild 550hp A4 somebody posted) and see what they could help me get out of it. I'd still be happy with stage 1 3.0t power simply because of lighter weight on the nose. This is probably not going to happen unless I accidentally buy some "lost cause" A4. This time, I hope that after I sell effing "A4 3.0T" I'll have enough common sense to get an n55 or maybe even b58 powered vehicle.

[AudiAR01]

these S4 prices are not very realistic, at least not in my area. 13+ S4s are more like in 20k+ range, especially from the dealer. For 16k what I mostly see is some worn out 2010s with 150+kmiles. Bottom line is you need to spend at least 20k to get an S4 you won't have to dump a bunch of money and time into in short order and focus on tuning only. I should know, I bought one with high miles needing a new starter last year and then it was the trans and now it's "bulletproof" 3.0t engine. I can believe in 2013 A4 in that price range, though. Anyways, looks like k04 a4s can run with stage 1 s4s and that's more than good enough for me. I personally wouldn't tune my s4 to stage 2 because of all the problems it will cause such as melted cats and more. Do you know how much effort it is to replace those stinking cats on the s4? I'm not talking bundling up a bunch of swivel extensions (this, too) but lowering the engine with subframe and trans. The official manual is actually asking to remove the trans (10hrs labor by the book), so that's what you are likely to pay if you ask a shop to do it. This is a huge dealbreaker if you have visual inspections. You'll also be pushing stock superstupidcharger to and beyond the limits of its efficiency. You can only do so much with all those heat exchangers and methanol injection to lower high intake temps which are endemic to roots blowers. Again, you can install a chiller but that's also somewhat expensive. Anyways, stage2 on 3.0t and stock blower is just plain torturing the motor, and aftermarket blowers are $$, plus don't forget custom tuning as well. With all that shit done you will be right or past the doorsteps of f80 m3/m4 which are better cars, but that's going off tangent.
Anything higher than stage 2 also seems as unstable as Uranium 235 - that's for the S4's room to grow. Surely it can grow into a nice blast in the engine bay, lol) Plus, turbo options for A4 are not limited to k04, you suggested using something else yourself in your other post, so there's the room to grow for you.
It's kind of funny how a guy with 3.0t tries to convince a guy with no 3.0t that 3.0t is not all they hype it up to be.
If I was to try to build myself a fun Awdi, I'd get a very cheap B8 with confirmed oil consumption, these seem to cost nothing even where I am, and just put some higher spec internals into the engine. I'd get some bigger turbo and contact AGP Motorsports (a company which tuned that wild 550hp A4 somebody posted) and see what they could help me get out of it. I'd still be happy with stage 1 3.0t power simply because of lighter weight on the nose. This is probably not going to happen unless I accidentally buy some "lost cause" A4. This time, I hope that after I sell effing "A4 3.0T" I'll have enough common sense to get an n55 or maybe even b58 powered vehicle.I have a c5A6 I'm building right now. To stage 3. And my next Audi purchase and build is an Avant A4 with 1.8T already swapped to k04 for 1200 bucks. Body is perfect. I've seen posts about making the 1.8t a 2.0t stroker. That I think would be sweet in an avant. To me it seems once you get past b5-b6 and c5-c6 cars the money involved to make big power is astronomical and then they're not reliable. That's why I'm sticking with the b5-c5 platform.

2003 A6 2.7T 6spd Stage 1+ (motor pulled for stage 3+ upgrades)

2001 Allroad TIP Stage 1
2006 A3 2.0T 6spd Stage 1

[fastboatster]

I have a c5A6 I'm building right now. To stage 3. And my next Audi purchase and build is an Avant A4 with 1.8T already swapped to k04 for 1200 bucks. Body is perfect. I've seen posts about making the 1.8t a 2.0t stroker. That I think would be sweet in an avant. To me it seems once you get past b5-b6 and c5-c6 cars the money involved to make big power is astronomical and then they're not reliable. That's why I'm sticking with the b5-c5 platform.

2003 A6 2.7T 6spd Stage 1+ (motor pulled for stage 3+ upgrades)

2001 Allroad TIP Stage 1
2006 A3 2.0T 6spd Stage 1
There seems to be some truth to this. B8 platform has a lot of questionable design decisions, and moving the axle forward only made things more “squished” and more difficult to work on, while still having the engine in front of the axle and not the best steering response. Might have as well mounted the front diff to the engine oil pan, Quattro is about full time awd with Torsen diff, not about having suboptimal layout.

[Spawne32]

If I had to take a guess, they're going to tell you you need to increase crack pressure on the wg. If they offer a software revision, I'm going to lose my mind....

He knows the owner of the company, naturally he has been getting special treatment from day 1. Which is why everytime we tried to get help with dialing in our tunes we got told we were the problem.

[Nano909]

these S4 prices are not very realistic, at least not in my area. 13+ S4s are more like in 20k+ range, especially from the dealer. For 16k what I mostly see is some worn out 2010s with 150+kmiles. Bottom line is you need to spend at least 20k to get an S4 you won't have to dump a bunch of money and time into in short order and focus on tuning only. I should know, I bought one with high miles needing a new starter last year and then it was the trans and now it's "bulletproof" 3.0t engine. I can believe in 2013 A4 in that price range, though. Anyways, looks like k04 a4s can run with stage 1 s4s and that's more than good enough for me. I personally wouldn't tune my s4 to stage 2 because of all the problems it will cause such as melted cats and more. Do you know how much effort it is to replace those stinking cats on the s4? I'm not talking bundling up a bunch of swivel extensions (this, too) but lowering the engine with subframe and trans. The official manual is actually asking to remove the trans (10hrs labor by the book), so that's what you are likely to pay if you ask a shop to do it. This is a huge dealbreaker if you have visual inspections. You'll also be pushing stock superstupidcharger to and beyond the limits of its efficiency. You can only do so much with all those heat exchangers and methanol injection to lower high intake temps which are endemic to roots blowers. Again, you can install a chiller but that's also somewhat expensive. Anyways, stage2 on 3.0t and stock blower is just plain torturing the motor, and aftermarket blowers are $$, plus don't forget custom tuning as well. With all that shit done you will be right or past the doorsteps of f80 m3/m4 which are better cars, but that's going off tangent.
Anything higher than stage 2 also seems as unstable as Uranium 235 - that's for the S4's room to grow. Surely it can grow into a nice blast in the engine bay, lol) Plus, turbo options for A4 are not limited to k04, you suggested using something else yourself in your other post, so there's the room to grow for you.
It's kind of funny how a guy with 3.0t tries to convince a guy with no 3.0t that 3.0t is not all they hype it up to be.
If I was to try to build myself a fun Awdi, I'd get a very cheap B8 with confirmed oil consumption, these seem to cost nothing even where I am, and just put some higher spec internals into the engine. I'd get some bigger turbo and contact AGP Motorsports (a company which tuned that wild 550hp A4 somebody posted) and see what they could help me get out of it. I'd still be happy with stage 1 3.0t power simply because of lighter weight on the nose. This is probably not going to happen unless I accidentally buy some "lost cause" A4. This time, I hope that after I sell effing "A4 3.0T" I'll have enough common sense to get an n55 or maybe even b58 powered vehicle.

Bro that guy owns a B7 A4, he has no business here so don't pay attention to him.

[EvolutionArmory]

Bro that guy owns a B7 A4, he has no business here so don't pay attention to him.

Except for the fact that I’ve been right about everything and I don’t even own a B8. 🤣 You’re the one who doesn’t belong here as I see it. You’ve contributed no information.

Hey, another guy swapped tunes, runs a higher crack pressure than 6 psi and his car runs. But what do I know?

Idiot.

And that whole conversation happened because I was defending YOUR claim that you beat a B9 S4 🤣🤣

Yeah, him not listening to me would make you a liar.....

You ate lead as a kid.


Sent from my iPhone using Audizine (http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=87676)

[Perry01]

Bro that guy owns a B7 A4, he has no business here so don't pay attention to him.


Except for the fact that I’ve been right about everything and I don’t even own a B8. 🤣 You’re the one who doesn’t belong here as I see it. You’ve contributed no information.

Hey, another guy swapped tunes, runs a higher crack pressure than 6 psi and his car runs. But what do I know?

Idiot.

And that whole conversation happened because I was defending YOUR claim that you beat a B9 S4 🤣🤣

Yeah, him not listening to me would make you a liar.....

You ate lead as a kid.

C’mon guys I know this thread gets off track at times but let’s keep the discussion to our vehicles.

[Nano909]

C’mon guys I know this thread gets off track at times but let’s keep the discussion to our vehicles.Anytime he comments it's off track since he doesn't own a B8.

[Perry01]

You don’t have to own a B8 to contribute to this discussion. This is a public forum and everyone is welcome who contributes to the topic of this thread.

Let’s stay on the topic and resist the urge to bash one another.

[Nano909]

I didn't bash anyone. I simply told a member not to get riled up over the comments of a guy that doesn't own a B8. Your boy threw the insults, not me.

[EvolutionArmory]

I didn't bash anyone. I simply told a member not to get riled up over the comments of a guy that doesn't own a B8. Your boy threw the insults, not me.

And time and time again I’ve told you it doesn’t matter. What difference does it make if I own the car or not? You guys keep proving me right every time. Most of you guys own a B8 A4 but why is it that my way always gets better results?

Imagine what I could do if I actually owned the car? 🤣


Sent from my iPhone using Audizine (http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=87676)

[Traptalk]

OK, here are some results from yesterday. The file is for sea level in Hawaii. Fuel is 91 octane, temp was 35°F and elevation 5000 feet. I’m going to send these logs to IE and see if they can adjust for the change in elevation by closing the wastegate some for a little bit more boost. I’m not meeting requested boost anywhere in the RPM range. I am surprised to see 264 g/s though. 12° of timing advance it’s not bad for 91 octane gasoline.

https://i.postimg.cc/sfSftRJH/831-C5-DDC-3656-430-D-B7-F8-D75-D22-C63-FD7.jpg (https://postimages.org/)

https://i.postimg.cc/0jgkbt9C/F8170-F20-B3-D6-4-E14-9-D47-CBC5-B5-CCD4-D4.jpg (https://postimages.org/)

https://i.postimg.cc/5ywxvw0W/4-E7-B0-A77-E5-B7-4-E01-B49-E-CB97518-EC077.jpg (https://postimages.org/)

What was maf at sealevel on this file?

Sorry if I missed it

[Traptalk]

And you’re wrong about the JHM turbos. The guts are sourced from a UK parts supplier. I assume this is probably Melett as they are probably the biggest. And there are some BW parts too according to Jake. The CHRA is also the same CHRA as their RS6R turbos. That’s right from Jake’s mouth.

So no, the K04R is not just some China turbo marked up to 1600.

Their intercoolers on the other hand, that’s true. My small core JHM intercooler box still had remains of the CX Racing logo on it, which they tried to razor knife off but weren’t quite successful 🤣

But just because one product is eBay junk doesn’t mean they all are. I’m probably the most critical person there is when it comes to JHM but you have to be fair. Fair is fair.


Sent from my iPhone using Audizine (http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=87676)

So in other words jhm is building these turbos the same way we are. Uk cores and Chinese housings 😂😂

Sorry Jake

[Traptalk]

You don’t have to own a B8 to contribute to this discussion. This is a public forum and everyone is welcome who contributes to the topic of this thread.

Let’s stay on the topic and resist the urge to bash one another.

Amen 🙏

[EvolutionArmory]

So in other words jhm is building these turbos the same way we are. Uk cores and Chinese housings [emoji23][emoji23]

Sorry Jake

That sounds more accurate yes but you’ve got it backwards. You’re doing what they do. Not the other way around. The difference is they have to spend a lot more money than you do and actually warranty them if they break. That costs money. They have a business to run. You’re just some guy. [emoji3]

These guys are making it to be like JHM is just buying the standard China K04’s and painting them black or buying that coating option from an alibaba check list and marking it up 1000 bucks.

My JHM turbo took all the punishment I could throw at it. 6 straight runs in one night at New England Dragway, countless logging pulls to redline, etc.

It took being starved for oil when my motor blew with 225K for the turbo to die. I put like 70,000 miles on that turbo. Hard driven miles and it worked great once I figured out the crack pressure was only set to 6 PSI.

The K04R is a nice turbo.




Sent from my iPhone using Audizine (http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=87676)

[Perry01]

What was maf at sealevel on this file?

Sorry if I missed it

~295 g/s depending on temp/humidity

[Traptalk]

~295 g/s depending on temp/humidity

So a little better than the 10g/s per 1000’ I had expected to see

Maybe the temp differences helped keep it high

[Traptalk]

That sounds more accurate yes but you’ve got it backwards. You’re doing what they do. Not the other way around. The difference is they have to spend a lot more money than you do and actually warranty them if they break. That costs money. They have a business to run. You’re just some guy. [emoji3]

These guys are making it to be like JHM is just buying the standard China K04’s and painting them black or buying that coating option from an alibaba check list and marking it up 1000 bucks.

My JHM turbo took all the punishment I could throw at it. 6 straight runs in one night at New England Dragway, countless logging pulls to redline, etc.

It took being starved for oil when my motor blew with 225K for the turbo to die. I put like 70,000 miles on that turbo. Hard driven miles and it worked great once I figured out the crack pressure was only set to 6 PSI.

The K04R is a nice turbo.




Sent from my iPhone using Audizine (http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=87676)

I suppose this is true. Thankfully for us guys doing it on our own turbo rebuilders offers at least a 1 year warranty on pretty much everything they sell

[bb-tt]

~295 g/s depending on temp/humidity


i'll take a wag at 30-50 g/s lost at 5-6k alt.

https://www.audizine.com/forum/showthread.php/827653-the-official-ebay-K04-thread?p=14339909&viewfull=1#post14339909

at the risk of being compared to someone else here, what do i win?

[Perry01]

I’ll take a wag at 30-50 g/s lost at 5-6k alt.


at the risk of being compared to someone else here, what do i win?

I lost 31 g/s at 5000’ elevation. I’d probably lose another 10 g/s at 6000’ so you were spot on. You win a ski vacation in Utah. You cover your airfare and I’ll take care of the rest 🤙🏼

[19birel]

Curious if anyone here is running a ZF6 or better yet a 6MT with some Dragy results? I've only been able to uncover ZF8 results so far...

[Spawne32]

Curious if anyone here is running a ZF6 or better yet a 6MT with some Dragy results? I've only been able to uncover ZF8 results so far...

That will come from me soon as we work out these fuel issues. I had to dial the tune back a little until we figure out some of these problems, currently waiting on support from hptuners to add a few more tables.

[19birel]

That will come from me soon as we work out these fuel issues. I had to dial the tune back a little until we figure out some of these problems, currently waiting on support from hptuners to add a few more tables.

Oh nice! given how much different the gearing is between the 8-speed and 6-speed cars, it'll be nice to get that reference point

[Mars2]

And these cars will always make good torque figures. There’s a point where too much boost can make you lose power. Once you go too far out of the efficiency range, all you’re doing is blowing hot air, raising EGT’s and combustion temp. More boost crams more air into your manifold and combustion chamber but air density is as important as air flow or air volume. And hot air from a turbo trying to make 28 PSI when it was only designed to make 14 can actually make less power than that same car running 24 sometimes. Things like water meth and E85 REALLY help keep temps down but it’s still just physics.

When I was at the dyno 2 months ago I made adjustments with my MBC to let it overboost a little more. Peak torque went up, HP didn’t and sometime went down. What I ended up doing was setting it to a spot where it was a good balance of both.

For the boost levels and power ranges some of you guys are trying to hit, you totally bought the wrong turbo. You could make these goals with a bigger turbo running a much less aggressive tune much easier.

I bet the B8 A4 would do awesome with a mild boost GTX2860R or an EFR 6258 for example

on 2883 compressor map ( K04-064)you are at a better efficiency position at 28psi at 4000 rpm than at 20 psi at 6200 rpm.
please when you speak of turbo efficiency poof it with compressor map. mark Rpm/boost point on it.
Other wise you are just talking in the air.

Here both point marked on the K04-064 compressor map.

208003

[AudiAR01]

That sounds more accurate yes but you’ve got it backwards. You’re doing what they do. Not the other way around. The difference is they have to spend a lot more money than you do and actually warranty them if they break. That costs money. They have a business to run. You’re just some guy. [emoji3]

These guys are making it to be like JHM is just buying the standard China K04’s and painting them black or buying that coating option from an alibaba check list and marking it up 1000 bucks.

My JHM turbo took all the punishment I could throw at it. 6 straight runs in one night at New England Dragway, countless logging pulls to redline, etc.

It took being starved for oil when my motor blew with 225K for the turbo to die. I put like 70,000 miles on that turbo. Hard driven miles and it worked great once I figured out the crack pressure was only set to 6 PSI.

The K04R is a nice turbo.




Sent from my iPhone using Audizine (http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=87676)And I bet my turbo(s) will take severe punishment once my clutch is broke in. I don't have a problem with them marking them up. I know they have overhead to pay, employees to pay and whatnot. But I'd also bet that you could build the same two turbos that they offer as the RS6 turbos for less money than they cost at jhm. Probably down to the same black coating. I have no problem admitting jhm did it first. But if you think jhm was the first to build a turbo like that and sell it as their own. Than apparently you've never heard of any other turbo that has ever been made. Garrett started the same way back in the 1950s. When it was Honeywell turbos being built for Catipiller engines. At that time, entrepreneur and engineer Cliff*Garrett*led a project team to develop a*turbocharger*for a Caterpillar D9 crawler tractor that launched in 1954, marking the beginning of the turbocharged era for the automotive industry. And guess where he sourced his parts from???? drumrolll......... CHINA.....

2003 A6 2.7T 6spd Stage 1+ (motor pulled for stage 3+ upgrades)

2001 Allroad TIP Stage 1
2006 A3 2.0T 6spd Stage 1

[EvolutionArmory]

on 2883 compressor map ( K04-064)you are at a better efficiency position at 28psi at 4000 rpm than at 20 psi at 6200 rpm.
please when you speak of turbo efficiency poof it with compressor map. mark Rpm/boost point on it.
Other wise you are just talking in the air.

Here both point marked on the K04-064 compressor map.

208003



I’m still waiting for the custom tune guys to be faster than the APR cars running less boost. [emoji6]

And yes, the K04 might still be efficient at 28 psi at 4K, that doesn’t mean that your car will be faster since you’re hardly ever at 4K during a race. Once you leave 1st gear, that’s it. It’s all high RPM’s after that. All you’re really doing is adding torque but HP probably won’t gain much. Torque is fun but HP wins races. I don’t know about your car but my car makes peak power at 5800. TIMING is what I would be trying to advance at this RPM. Not boost.

It will be fun on the street and impressive in a one gear log on the internet with 28 PSI down low but will it be a faster car?

And just because the compressor map says it’s efficient at that 28 psi at 4K, is the car efficient? Is that pressure just causing more back pressure, is it raising EGT’s and combustion temps? Is your car pulling timing due to it which will negate any gains the extra boost would add? Can your car supply enough fuel for it without maxing out something?

These are all questions you have to ask yourself and goes back to what I said earlier. Boost isn’t everything.


Sent from my iPhone using Audizine (http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=87676)

[Mars2]

Sorry we don't speak about same race.
Here 1/4 mile is totaly unpopular. Just a few know what it is. Most think it's stupid race for driver's with no skills. I personally don't think so when you start to have car that make around 1000HP
For sure with my 315WHP DSG you need ZERO skills for that.
Their is no drag race strip in my country.


Here race is on twisty B road or around track on the weekend.
And their having the widest HP range at possible will put you in front. Specialy on B road's as you can not always be ready for what is in front on a 20 mile race.
So being able to change less gear make you faster. It also make it more forgiving for that surprising tight curve where you comme out not on the perfect gear.

Diesel with their huge torque win Leman 24H. WRC car has crazy torque down low.....and Power at high rev is restricted by their intake rule restriction before turbo.
Year's ago with My Moded TDI I would win race on B twisty road against Honda Civic Type R any time.

My car don't pull any timing at midrange with 28 psi (or thigh rev). My intake temp are ok. I have plenty enough fuel with 5th injector of 1000cc. my MAF goes up by ar least 30G/S from 3000 tp 5000 rpm.
So 30 G/s more with No timing pull and IAT no going much higher wi net a lot of HP in that range.
But this is just supposition and the Dyno will be my judge. should go on it very soon to camper with my dyno at 24 psi with MBC ( because of high crack pressure). On my lats dyno I made max power at 6100rpm that is why I have increase a lot boost around 5000 to 6000 rpm to try to make more power earlier.

So your car make max power at 5800 rpm and their you have 270 G/s according to the graph you posted. So like i said to you before, the 290 G/s that you get at 6800 rpm does not net you any more power that what you get at 5800rpm with about 270G/s. this is about compressor efficiency.

[Traptalk]

Happy thanksgiving boys

[AudiAR01]

Happy thanksgiving boysHappy Turkey Day

2003 A6 2.7T 6spd Stage 1+ (motor pulled for stage 3+ upgrades)

2001 Allroad TIP Stage 1
2006 A3 2.0T 6spd Stage 1

[bb-tt]

Oh nice! given how much different the gearing is between the 8-speed and 6-speed cars, it'll be nice to get that reference point

you will have to take his time with a grain of salt the beige interior adds like 4 to 5 tenths of a second[rolleyes]

[Perry01]

Mars2, most people here don’t run pure E85 nor do they have meth injection or even a gigantic FMIC like you do. In your case, 28 PSI may be beneficial to your set-up and driving style. But for the rest, it is only going to cause throttle closure, generate high EGT’s and IAT’s, pull timing and create fuel starvation.

High levels of boost are just going to create more problems for the majority of K04 owners without seeing much benefit.

[EvolutionArmory]

Exactly. Him being able to run 20 degrees of timing and having low combustion temps and EGT’s is doing way more for him than boost is.

Corn juice is almost like cheating. [emoji3]

I’m so very jealous.


Sent from my iPhone using Audizine (http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=87676)

[Mars2]

Mars2, most people here don’t run pure E85 nor do they have meth injection or even a gigantic FMIC like you do. In your case, 28 PSI may be beneficial to your set-up and driving style. But for the rest, it is only going to cause throttle closure, generate high EGT’s and IAT’s, pull timing and create fuel starvation.

High levels of boost are just going to create more problems for the majority of K04 owners without seeing much benefit.

Sorry I thought that was obvious. Like you can't run stage 2 tune without a least a HFC or your car will pull timing.
Or like you can't use a stage 2+ tune( high midrange boost) on EA113 Golf 6R (K04-064) without a upgraded HPFP.

My point was only to say that at 28psi at 4000 on a K04-064 you are pushing this turbo less toward it's limit that at 20 psi at 6000rpm. At 20 psi at 6000rpm you are at the shock limit of the turbo.
I guess it's why APR stay at 18psi. going above that at this rpm only net you some higher MAF reading but totaly block you from adding timing with 91 or 93.

[19birel]

you will have to take his time with a grain of salt the beige interior adds like 4 to 5 tenths of a second[rolleyes]

Ahh darn, yeah a retirement-spec interior is not conducive to high performance[emoji23]


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Mars2]

Exactly. Him being able to run 20 degrees of timing and having low combustion temps and EGT’s is doing way more for him than boost is.

Corn juice is almost like cheating. [emoji3]



I’m so very jealous.


Sent from my iPhone using Audizine (http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=87676)


This is only half of the story.

- Yes at High rev with a K04 a like turbo that is already maxout yes it's those lower EGT that allow you to use much more timing to catch those extra WHP
- But at Midrange where on most tune K04 is not maxout because of 91 or 93 limitation, E85 allows you to maxout that turbo ( 28 psi) and also run more timing. Win win

So with a good E85 setup ( enough fueling and great air cooling) you get much wider HP range.

[EvolutionArmory]

Well, isn’t the idea to have a car that performs well at all conditions? What would you rather have? A car that only performs well at certain RPM ranges or a car that is more balanced in all?


I set my boost controller so my car makes close to equal torque and HP. It isn’t the fastest car but it’s well balanced. It sure is fun. [emoji3]


Sent from my iPhone using Audizine (http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=87676)

[Mars2]

Well, isn’t the idea to have a car that performs well at all conditions? What would you rather have? A car that only performs well at certain RPM ranges or a car that is more balanced in all?


I set my boost controller so my car makes close to equal torque and HP. It isn’t the fastest car but it’s well balanced. It sure is fun. [emoji3]


Sent from my iPhone using Audizine (http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=87676)

IS that an answer to me???
because if it's to me I don't understand your answer. My car with E85 will for sure have a much wider power band with let say more than 250 WHP than your's

I have always been a fan of 4wheel drive car with big torque. as much torque as possible. it's the way to have them drift. On RWD or FWD drive it's an other story
My audi RS2 make 460 LB Ft at 3200 rpm ( 32 PSI of boost) and 320 WHP with LSD at rear and modified 85/15% Torsen in the center. this a fun car to drive. specially when it's wet.

[EvolutionArmory]

But you’re comparing what you can do with a fueling system almost nobody here is running. It’s why the Allroads are always faster. 5th injector, E85 etc. Way less susceptible to knock.

Are any of these guys running HP Tuners trying to hit 28 PSI even running water meth?

Trap has direct port but got rid of HP Tuners and is running a so called “inferior” APR tune now. And his car actually runs now. 🤣


Sent from my iPhone using Audizine (http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=87676)

[SNice]

Really enjoying all the tech talk! I have so much research to do! Y’all are scaring me since it appears I’m overboosting at 29-30psi. Am I gonna blow up my turbo and engine?

Is there an example of an “ideal” K04 log that I could compare mine to? Need to know where all these parameters should fall.


Sent from my iPhone using Audizine Forum (http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=87676)

[EvolutionArmory]

Overboost isn’t necessarily bad. It depends on if it’s causing other things to suffer. If you overboost too much, the ECU can pull timing and it might not give it all back to you smoothly. If it’s not pulling timing maybe leave it alone. If it is pulling timing, then maybe you can try backing your wastegate down a little or asking for more N75 duty cycle if your tuner does revisions.

Gotta look at several different parameters to decide what the right decision is.

Having said that, making too much boost too soon with aggressive timing can put a hole in your block. You don’t see too many windowed blocks with B8’s though.


Sent from my iPhone using Audizine (http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=87676)

[JLAllroad]

But you’re comparing what you can do with a fueling system almost nobody here is running. It’s why the Allroads are always faster. 5th injector, E85 etc. Way less susceptible to knock.

Are any of these guys running HP Tuners trying to hit 28 PSI even running water meth?

Trap has direct port but got rid of HP Tuners and is running a so called “inferior” APR tune now. And his car actually runs now. 🤣


Sent from my iPhone using Audizine (http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=87676)

The fifth injectors on flex fuel A4/Allroads are only used for cold starts on E85.

And I believe when you say inferior you mean OTS tunes, not just APR, correct?

Lastly if someone with a B8(non flex fuel) looking to go K04 full bolt on, were to have asked me a year ago “what tune” I would have said IE because of the ability to remote tweak your tune.

APR has always been my answer for flex fuel cars, and now maybe non flex fuel as well.


Sent from my iPhone using Audizine (http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=87676)

[Perry01]

Really enjoying all the tech talk! I have so much research to do! Y’all are scaring me since it appears I’m overboosting at 29-30psi. Am I gonna blow up my turbo and engine?

Is there an example of an “ideal” K04 log that I could compare mine to? Need to know where all these parameters should fall.

I wouldn’t put much faith in the OBD11 for datalogging purposes. I’m not sure if anyone here uses it and can verify its accuracy

[EvolutionArmory]

This is a log I took the other day. Technically I’m overboosting between 2600 to like 3500 but it’s only 22 PSI or less.
208079

Timing is ok so I’m not worried about it.

And yes, I wouldn’t put too much faith in OBD 11 logs. You should buy VCDS.



Sent from my iPhone using Audizine (http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=87676)

[EvolutionArmory]

The fifth injectors on flex fuel A4/Allroads are only used for cold starts on E85.

And I believe when you say inferior you mean OTS tunes, not just APR, correct?

Lastly if someone with a B8(non flex fuel) looking to go K04 full bolt on, were to have asked me a year ago “what tune” I would have said IE because of the ability to remote tweak your tune.

APR has always been my answer for flex fuel cars, and now maybe non flex fuel as well.


Sent from my iPhone using Audizine (http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=87676)

But is that also true for tuned cars? Honestly, I don’t know a whole lot about how the injector works. I was just going by what Mars said and he implied that the 5th injector was supplying more fuel for his car.

If I misunderstood, I apologize.


Sent from my iPhone using Audizine (http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=87676)

[Mars2]

But is that also true for tuned cars? Honestly, I don’t know a whole lot about how the injector works. I was just going by what Mars said and he implied that the 5th injector was supplying more fuel for his car.

If I misunderstood, I apologize.


Sent from my iPhone using Audizine (http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=87676)

APR don't use 5TH injector to supply more fuel. It's like OEM only on for very very cold start.
I use a Stratified 5Th injector kit control by a stand alone ECU from " Split second"

stratified 5Th injector kit.
http://www.stratifiedauto.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=209_303&products_id=992

[Iceman502]

Here you go Spawne, this redo is for you!

https://i.imgur.com/gfL0fyM.jpg

[EvolutionArmory]

Got it.

So your car can supply much more fuel than anyone else's car in this thread can. What you can accomplish for fuel, boost and knock suppression is loads better than what they can and light years ahead of what I could do.

The closest thing anyone could do to come close is with direct port water meth but E85 will still be better. You can probably run a few more points of advance than even the most aggressive 100 octane tune with meth can.

What you can do probably won't benefit them or maybe even hurt performance. Is that fair for me to say?

I would love to see what these guy's injector information looks like at 28 PSI. They are probably running at the max duty trying to supply fuel for that. And I wonder if their injector timing is over 6 trying to do it.

[Iceman502]

Evo, I just swapped out the MBC and the Pierburg N75 (that wasn't in use) for an Audi/VW N75. The generic part numbers are the same, but the embossed numbers were different. I don't know if that's going to matter at all, but if suddenly I see different behavior, that could explain why. If I can't hit target boost, then I'll bring the MBC inline with the WG to see if I can 'increase' crack pressure.

[EvolutionArmory]

Evo, I just swapped out the MBC and the Pierburg N75 (that wasn't in use) for an Audi/VW N75. The generic part numbers are the same, but the embossed numbers were different. I don't know if that's going to matter at all, but if suddenly I see different behavior, that could explain why. If I can't hit target boost, then I'll bring the MBC inline with the WG to see if I can 'increase' crack pressure.

Can you check resistance of both with a multimeter before you install the new one?

[Traptalk]

Technically I’m over boosting the entire rpm range lol

Apr requests 2.55 bar absolute from about 3200 - 4500rpm and the the request tapers to 2.2 bar absolute at 6200rpm

My actual boost is 2.665 bar absolute from 3300 till about 4800rpm which tapers to 2.330 bar absolute at 6222rpm at the auto shift

By 2800 rpm I have 2.4 bar which continues to ramp up to the 2.665 bar at 3300rpm

Ambient pressure for the logs I posted was 14.4 psi

2.665 bar = 38.653 psi - 14.4psi = 24.25psi peak

2.330 bar = 33.79379 psi - 14.4psi = 19.39psi @ red line


Couple screen shots from the log one is request vs manifold absolute pressure and the other is desired boost vs boost pressure

Not sure what differences are in the 2 so I got both

https://i.postimg.cc/bYRgBzpG/1-B8-BC3-B0-8481-43-D9-A45-C-B1-D9-F50-E8115.jpg
https://i.postimg.cc/zXX7m9Gx/3-EF7810-C-4-D51-4081-AA96-96-FA9-C94395-B.jpg

Now that I’m taking a second look at this log it’s cool to see the effects of the methanol

Ambient temperature is 37*F

Start of the pull is 9*C end of the pull is 5*C

So starting at 48.2*F and dropping to dropping to 41* F

As I’ve seen previously most the cooling seems to happen between gear shifts right after the auto shifts IAT dropped to 0*C

On a hot day I’m curious to see what kind of temps can be dropped on a multi gear pull. Cooling effects aren’t as great when it’s already cold outside.

On 93 file with meth off IAT started at 14*C dropped to 9*C by midrange and by redline was starting to go back up ended at 11*C

So with meth it’s steady temp dropping, without meth the temp stays a lot more flat

Knowing that the meth kicks on at 10psi and goes full at 24psi

I know the meth is starting at 2400 rpm (1.65 bar absolute) and goes full at 3300 rpm (2.65 bar absolute) at peak boost

By 4000 rpm can see the temps start dropping steadily and substantially

Also noticing that the 100 octane with meth the estimated engine torque is over 30Nm higher from the 93 octane file

380Nm on 93 and 410nm on 100 oct

For comparison sake was seeing 435nm estimation of my hp tuners custom tune

Egt curve on both files looks pretty much identical except the 100 octane file is about 10 degrees cooler at its hottest point

[Traptalk]

Can you check resistance of both with a multimeter before you install the new one?

My pierburg read about a half ohm higher than the oem

Have a oem installed on my new turbo and the pierburg sitting in the box still

I want to say the oem was 23.3 and the pierburg was 23.8

The Chinese n75 that came with the turbo was actually closer to the oem than the pierburg was

[Traptalk]

Got it.

So your car can supply much more fuel than anyone else's car in this thread can. What you can accomplish for fuel, boost and knock suppression is loads better than what they can and light years ahead of what I could do.

The closest thing anyone could do to come close is with direct port water meth but E85 will still be better. You can probably run a few more points of advance than even the most aggressive 100 octane tune with meth can.

What you can do probably won't benefit them or maybe even hurt performance. Is that fair for me to say?

I would love to see what these guy's injector information looks like at 28 PSI. They are probably running at the max duty trying to supply fuel for that. And I wonder if their injector timing is over 6 trying to do it.

I can only speak for my car but there was no fuel shortages for me at any point

I was pretty consistently over fueling all the way up to 3 bar

[Traptalk]

Cybernet is running a Efr 8474 with 24psi to redline with all stock fueling still.


The hpfp seems to be the weakest link in fueling. These injectors can flow a good amount of power with pump gas and we know the lpfp can support 450whp s4’s


Biggest difference I’m seeing with apr is again the injection angle and the rail pressure is much lower especially on the top end


Tuning these di injectors are harder than people realize I think. Not like port injectors where the fuel atomizes before it enters the chamber. Has to be timed out perfect for proper atomization. Also seeing that a higher di angle will run leaner than a low di angle

[EvolutionArmory]

I can only speak for my car but there was no fuel shortages for me at any point

I was pretty consistently over fueling all the way up to 3 bar

I wonder it that would be different if you weren’t running a Walbro 450. Running a big turbo on stock injectors sounds scary. I hope his tuner isn’t making it lean.

I just ordered a Walbro yesterday. Unless I run 70% meth, my stock fuel pump can’t keep up.

The B7 A4 fuel system really sucks. At least you guys aren’t nearly as bad off as B7’s are.


Sent from my iPhone using Audizine (http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=87676)

[JLAllroad]

Technically I’m over boosting the entire rpm range lol

Apr requests 2.55 bar absolute from about 3200 - 4500rpm and the the request tapers to 2.2 bar absolute at 6200rpm

My actual boost is 2.665 bar absolute from 3300 till about 4800rpm which tapers to 2.330 bar absolute at 6222rpm at the auto shift

By 2800 rpm I have 2.4 bar which continues to ramp up to the 2.665 bar at 3300rpm

Ambient pressure for the logs I posted was 14.4 psi

2.665 bar = 38.653 psi - 14.4psi = 24.25psi peak

2.330 bar = 33.79379 psi - 14.4psi = 19.39psi @ red line


Couple screen shots from the log one is request vs manifold absolute pressure and the other is desired boost vs boost pressure

Not sure what differences are in the 2 so I got both

https://i.postimg.cc/bYRgBzpG/1-B8-BC3-B0-8481-43-D9-A45-C-B1-D9-F50-E8115.jpg
https://i.postimg.cc/zXX7m9Gx/3-EF7810-C-4-D51-4081-AA96-96-FA9-C94395-B.jpg

Now that I’m taking a second look at this log it’s cool to see the effects of the methanol

Ambient temperature is 37*F

Start of the pull is 9*C end of the pull is 5*C

So starting at 48.2*F and dropping to dropping to 41* F

As I’ve seen previously most the cooling seems to happen between gear shifts right after the auto shifts IAT dropped to 0*C

On a hot day I’m curious to see what kind of temps can be dropped on a multi gear pull. Cooling effects aren’t as great when it’s already cold outside.

On 93 file with meth off IAT started at 14*C dropped to 9*C by midrange and by redline was starting to go back up ended at 11*C

So with meth it’s steady temp dropping, without meth the temp stays a lot more flat

Knowing that the meth kicks on at 10psi and goes full at 24psi

I know the meth is starting at 2400 rpm (1.65 bar absolute) and goes full at 3300 rpm (2.65 bar absolute) at peak boost

By 4000 rpm can see the temps start dropping steadily and substantially

Also noticing that the 100 octane with meth the estimated engine torque is over 30Nm higher from the 93 octane file

380Nm on 93 and 410nm on 100 oct

For comparison sake was seeing 435nm estimation of my hp tuners custom tune

Egt curve on both files looks pretty much identical except the 100 octane file is about 10 degrees cooler at its hottest point

What does your timing and WG duty cycle look like?




Sent from my iPhone using Audizine (http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=87676)

[bb-tt]

I’m still waiting for the custom tune guys to be faster than the APR cars running less boost. [emoji6]




Sent from my iPhone using Audizine (http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=87676)

and we are still waiting for you to show us a APR b8, not 8.5 with e85 and methanol that is faster.

[Nano909]

and we are still waiting for you to show us a APR b8, not 8.5 with e85 and methanol that is faster.

I'm still waiting for him to buy a B8 and be relevant here.

[bb-tt]

Here you go Spawne, this redo is for you!

https://i.imgur.com/gfL0fyM.jpg

much better but with all that red you might need to install a stripper pole.[:D]

[EvolutionArmory]

I'm still waiting for him to buy a B8 and be relevant here.

And yet all my advice seems to work...


Sent from my iPhone using Audizine (http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=87676)

[Traptalk]

I wonder it that would be different if you weren’t running a Walbro 450. Running a big turbo on stock injectors sounds scary. I hope his tuner isn’t making it lean.

I just ordered a Walbro yesterday. Unless I run 70% meth, my stock fuel pump can’t keep up.

The B7 A4 fuel system really sucks. At least you guys aren’t nearly as bad off as B7’s are.


Sent from my iPhone using Audizine (http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=87676)

A k04 isn’t a big turbo let’s be honest

Ask bb and spawnee or nano

No one is coming up short on fuel. High boost tho will definitely exposes dying components of the fuel system tho. If lpfp is on the way out and your running high duty cycle on it the issues will be more apparent than at a stock level

If these injectors were really that much larger I don’t think it would be a plug and play part

[Traptalk]

What does your timing and WG duty cycle look like?




Sent from my iPhone using Audizine (http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=87676)


Same log I posted the other day so on 100 octane it’s almost 19 degrees of timing on the top end and 10+ thru the midrange

Think 93 saw like 12-13 degrees on the top end

Wastegate is mid 60’s during peak boost and mid 50’s on the top end

[JLAllroad]

Same log I posted the other day so on 100 octane it’s almost 19 degrees of timing on the top end and 10+ thru the midrange

Think 93 saw like 12-13 degrees on the top end

Wastegate is mid 60’s during peak boost and mid 50’s on the top end

Some thoughts

We all like boost but with the exception of ramp up your duty cycle is quite low. This could be because your crack is a bit high or that compressor/housing is doing it’s job well, maybe a bit of both? How is part throttle drivability?

Again over boosting on the surface sounds good, hell I just want to hit requested@5300ft, but not if it’s at the cost of higher IAT and less timing.

Your initial results are promising, I actually have an enhanced CHRA sitting in a box waiting for a housing.


Sent from my iPhone using Audizine (http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=87676)

[Iceman502]

Can you check resistance of both with a multimeter before you install the new one?

I didn't even think about it :( Once I got started, it was redo the PCV line, install N75 and rotate tires before lunch was served.

After two logs, with boost spec at 2550 mbar, the car is back to hitting and holding 2450 mbar by 3400 rpm, dropping to 2350 by the time I hit 6375 rpm. I'm getting 10.5 degrees of timing advance but maxing the N75 duty cycle, so tomorrow I will be setting up the MBC to artificially increase crack pressure. Should be an interesting experiment.

[Iceman502]

much better but with all that red you might need to install a stripper pole.[:D]

....... not a bad idea

https://i.imgur.com/NA3syGT.png

[EvolutionArmory]

I didn't even think about it :( Once I got started, it was redo the PCV line, install N75 and rotate tires before lunch was served.

After two logs, with boost spec at 2550 mbar, the car is back to hitting and holding 2450 mbar by 3400 rpm, dropping to 2350 by the time I hit 6375 rpm. I'm getting 10.5 degrees of timing advance but maxing the N75 duty cycle, so tomorrow I will be setting up the MBC to artificially increase crack pressure. Should be an interesting experiment.

Keep me posted please.


Sent from my iPhone using Audizine (http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=87676)

[Nano909]

A k04 isn’t a big turbo let’s be honest

Ask bb and spawnee or nano

No one is coming up short on fuel. High boost tho will definitely exposes dying components of the fuel system tho. If lpfp is on the way out and your running high duty cycle on it the issues will be more apparent than at a stock level

If these injectors were really that much larger I don’t think it would be a plug and play part

My K04 is a stock turbo. In no way is it a big turbo and shouldn't be considered one. Lol

[Traptalk]

Some thoughts

We all like boost but with the exception of ramp up your duty cycle is quite low. This could be because your crack is a bit high or that compressor/housing is doing it’s job well, maybe a bit of both? How is part throttle drivability?

Again over boosting on the surface sounds good, hell I just want to hit requested@5300ft, but not if it’s at the cost of higher IAT and less timing.

Your initial results are promising, I actually have an enhanced CHRA sitting in a box waiting for a housing.


Sent from my iPhone using Audizine (http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=87676)

Part throttle is really smooth. No pulsations.

I think it’s probably a combination of the PnP and the wastegate crack.

Be interesting to see how schiwz’s data looks

[EvolutionArmory]

A k04 isn’t a big turbo let’s be honest

Ask bb and spawnee or nano

No one is coming up short on fuel. High boost tho will definitely exposes dying components of the fuel system tho. If lpfp is on the way out and your running high duty cycle on it the issues will be more apparent than at a stock level

If these injectors were really that much larger I don’t think it would be a plug and play part

When did I call a K04 a big turbo? I was talking about running an EFR on stock injectors. A reply to a comment you made. That sounds scary.

You say this guy is running an EFR on stock injectors but if this thread has taught us anything, it’s that all tuners are not created equally. That guy could be running hella lean and might not even know it. Your stock injectors are good for about 400 CHP and a maxed out K04 is knocking on the door to 400.

[EvolutionArmory]

My K04 is a stock turbo. In no way is it a big turbo and shouldn't be considered one. Lol

So it’s a good thing I never suggested it was. 🤣

[Traptalk]

When did I call a K04 a big turbo? I was talking about running an EFR on stock injectors. A reply to a comment you made. That sounds scary.

You say this guy is running an EFR on stock injectors but if this thread has taught us anything, it’s that all tuners are not created equally. That guy could be running hella lean and might not even know it. Your stock injectors are good for about 400 CHP and a maxed out K04 is knocking on the door to 400.

24 psi on a efr is barely using that thing tho. Peep their maps they can support over 4.2 bar ratios in near perfect efficiency so he’s barely cracking the surface of that turbo and no where near its peak output

https://i.postimg.cc/26knHs6f/8-EED1347-4-A31-4072-A9-C3-CB3-FD55-E228-C.png

He’s pulling 40-45 lb/min maybe at 2.6 bar absolute

[EvolutionArmory]

Then what is the point of running a turbo that big? Without the full details I can’t comment more but it sounds like he didn’t put much though behind picking the turbo.

I mean, who buys a 800 HP capable turbo to make a little over 400? 🤣


Sent from my iPhone using Audizine (http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=87676)

[Mars2]

Got it.

So your car can supply much more fuel than anyone else's car in this thread can. What you can accomplish for fuel, boost and knock suppression is loads better than what they can and light years ahead of what I could do.

The closest thing anyone could do to come close is with direct port water meth but E85 will still be better. You can probably run a few more points of advance than even the most aggressive 100 octane tune with meth can.

What you can do probably won't benefit them or maybe even hurt performance. Is that fair for me to say?

I would love to see what these guy's injector information looks like at 28 PSI. They are probably running at the max duty trying to supply fuel for that. And I wonder if their injector timing is over 6 trying to do it.

According to my tuner when mapping for start injection point as early as possible the efficient window opening at 6000 rpm is 8m.s (6m.s with oem injection starting point) and 10m.s at midrange.
That is a big increase of fueling capacity just by tuning.
I did the fueling map of my stand alone so that I stay close to those 8m.s because my tuner say that you make more power from DI injector tan MPI so he advice me to try to stay as close at 8m.s.
I'm finally their after 3 revision of my standalone fueling map. For exemple at 4000 rpm I only start to inject with 5th injector above 22psi with 0.5M.s going up to 2.8M.s at 28 psi. At 6500rpm I almost don't inject anything with 5th injector the DI is supplying enough at this rpm.


PS1: my tuner map VW/AUdi car to use 100% E85 every day. It's 90% of his customer tuning request. So he has a lot of experience with fueling tuning and upgrade.
He does a lot of E85 tuning for GOLF 6R and RS3/TTRS

PS2: yes i had to do lot of fueling mod to max out my turbo on E85: AEM 340 LPFP, VIS stage 2 HPFP, B8.5 Flexfuel injector, 5TH 1000cc injector. I have enough fueling on 100% E85 to run an EFR 6854 from turbozentrum

[Mars2]

Then what is the point of running a turbo that big? Without the full details I can’t comment more but it sounds like he didn’t put much though behind picking the turbo.

I mean, who buys a 800 HP capable turbo to make a little over 400? 🤣


Sent from my iPhone using Audizine (http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=87676)

If I understand well his signature he got 4x 1050 MPI injector's that should be plenty enough. If i remenber good when asking him his injector's are manage like me by split second controller.
That would explain why his limiting factor is the LPFP has the fuel going to the don't go through the HPFP.

[EvolutionArmory]

If I understand well his signature he got 4x 1050 MPI injector's that should be plenty enough. If i remenber good when asking him his injector's are manage like me by split second controller.
That would explain why his limiting factor is the LPFP has the fuel going to the don't go through the HPFP.

So he has enough injector but not enough pump. Doesn’t make any sense to run a turbo he can’t fuel. 🤣🤣


Sent from my iPhone using Audizine (http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=87676)

[Traptalk]

Then what is the point of running a turbo that big? Without the full details I can’t comment more but it sounds like he didn’t put much though behind picking the turbo.

I mean, who buys a 800 HP capable turbo to make a little over 400? 🤣


Sent from my iPhone using Audizine (http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=87676)

It’s not a finished build...

His direct port meth isn’t running yet, his port injectors aren’t hooked up yet either

Think his plan is to finish up spring of 2021.

Tim’s currently getting stainless steel adapters machined to drop walbros into our oem basket

He’s got a walbro 525 or is planning on using the 525

[EvolutionArmory]

It’s not a finished build...

His direct port meth isn’t running yet, his port injectors aren’t hooked up yet either

Think his plan is to finish up spring of 2021.

Tim’s currently getting stainless steel adapters machined to drop walbros into our oem basket

He’s got a walbro 525 or is planning on using the 525

So you brought up a build that isn’t even remotely done to say the stock injectors are running a HUGE EFR. As it turns out, that’s not even true.

[Traptalk]

So you brought up a build that isn’t even remotely done to say the stock injectors are running a HUGE EFR. As it turns out, that’s not even true.

I think you’re confused.

Mars speaks of injectors. I speak on the capabilities of the stock pumps with pump gas not ethanol

With his current configuration he’s making well over 400 crank probably closer to 450 and 400 at the wheels on 100% stock fueling

Our lpfp is the same as the s4/5 and rs5 it is a rather stout unit and the hpfp, not sure we know the limit on pump gas, doesn’t see short comings until e40 at k04 power levels

Im just trying to show you we are not nearly as limited as your b7 is in terms of stock fueling

[Spawne32]

Here you go Spawne, this redo is for you!

https://i.imgur.com/gfL0fyM.jpg

Oh man, that would match my red DIS and my beige interior perfectly. [:D]

[EvolutionArmory]

You said he was running a big EFR on “all stock fueling”. I can only go off of what you tell me.

You say he’s probably making X power. Until you know what he’s actually making, what’s the point of even bringing it up into this discussion? And just because your low pump is capable of higher pressure and flow doesn’t mean the rest of the system is. There’s the controller itself, the HPFP and the injectors to deal with too.

We need to see the real data. Fuel pressure at redline, injector timing, calculated injector duty, HPFP logs, AFR, etc.

Cars can appear to run great until they go pop.
And your stock fueling is very capable of running a K04 but if you try to push it further than that, you might just break something. Especially if you start forcing a bunch of hot air into the motor and make your car try to work harder to not blow itself up.

Do a draggy run with your APR tune. Let’s see if an OTS tune is faster than this custom tune running less boost.

Sent from my iPhone using Audizine (http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=87676)

[Nano909]

Oh man, that would match my red DIS and my beige interior perfectly. [:D]

🤢🤢🤢🤮

[bb-tt]

🤢🤢🤢🤮

[>_<]

[Brandon K.]

Traptalk

Attached are a couple of graphs showing timing, boost & MAF.
It took me a little time to figure out how to graph in excel. The day of the logs, it was roughly 70F and elevation is roughly 50 feet. I was only loging for timing pull on the 100 octane file using meth & 92 octane, so I was not going above 6000RPM.

[Traptalk]

Traptalk

Attached are a couple of graphs showing timing, boost & MAF.
It took me a little time to figure out how to graph in excel. The day of the logs, it was roughly 70F and elevation is roughly 50 feet. I was only loging for timing pull on the 100 octane file using meth & 92 octane, so I was not going above 6000RPM.


Ah yeah I see what you mean with the jhm running out of air, boost falls off pretty hard there by 6k have like 17psi

Our spool up and timing are pretty similar tho, I get a couple more degrees on the top end

And our maf is pretty close too, not sure how much of difference the extra 800’ of elevation really makes

What’s your wg crack set to?

[Brandon K.]

Ha yeah I see what you mean with the jhm running out of air, boost falls off pretty hard there by 6k have like 17psi

Our spool up and timing are pretty similar tho, I get a couple more degrees on the top end

And our maf is pretty close too, not sure how much of difference the extra 800’ of elevation really makes

What’s your wg crack set to?

Cracking pressure is 7.6psi.

If I keep winding it out to 6350, the timing will keep advancing to 19.5. I have the auto upshift deferred.

I did not post those logs, because I was not logging MAF on those.


Sent from my iPhone using [url=http://r.tapatalk.com/burl]

[EvolutionArmory]

Running that much timing up top must be sweet!!


Sent from my iPhone using Audizine (http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=87676)

[Brandon K.]

Running that much timing up top must be sweet!!


Sent from my iPhone using Audizine (http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=87676)

The disappointing part is that it could run more. That’s why I was disappointed the JB4 for the B8 can’t manipulate/advance the timing.


Sent from my iPhone using [url=http://r.tapatalk.com/burl]

[Traptalk]

Yeah less boost for you more room for timing makes sense.

I should turn my auto shift off and ride it to 7k for the data

My winter tires are on and my car feels really slow :( very heavy tires even tho they are smaller than my summers. Feels like power just isn’t getting put down the same but they aren’t spinning

Forgot how disconnected a winter tire makes you feel from a dry road. Almost feels like a softer suspension. And damn they are noisey

[Traptalk]

I think if you upped your crack or used a mbc to raise the perceived pressure you’d be able to hold boost longer

[Mars2]

some of you guy's need to have your car on Dyno. those timing and MAF reading mean nothing by themselves.
I'm a bit shocked that you keep on and on modifying without dyno!!! without any base dyno. your draggy tell you it's faster but you have no idea where in the rev range you increased your power. Like blind tuning.
At least download something like "perfexpert" app to see the shape of you power curve and compare after each modification on your car. Sure those number are not to take as reference and compare to a different car.
Just use them as a tuning tool to compare different setup.
I say it again passing your peak HP with a K04 (small turbo) somewhere between 5000 and 6200 rpm depending of your boost curve shape, seeing timing and MAF keep rising doesn't bring any additional HP in fact you will see the power curve falling down.
This is about compressor map efficiency.

Just look at the compressor map I post before with rpm ploted and it's very clear. at 6500 rpm the cock line is only at about 15psi
knowing that it's easy to understand that the place you can gain HP on a K04 it's below 6000rpm. No point working on the area above 6000rpm.

PS: on one of my revision map I had 24 psi at 6900 rpm but my peak Hp was at 5900 rpm with 19.5°
increasing timing in the efficiency part of the compressor map (under 6000rpm) will net you increased power.

[EvolutionArmory]

With the 100 octane tune my timing is advanced 4-6 degrees from 3K to redline and MAF is increased like 15-20 GS at 3K because of it. The MAF gains start to taper as RPM’s go up when compared to the 93 tune and I’m flowing the same MAF on both tunes by 6K it seems.

I agree with Mars that remote street tunes will only get you so far. At some point you need to start seeing what your power band really looks like. Some changes might only change peak by a couple HP or foot pounds but the whole curve might not be smooth.


Sent from my iPhone using Audizine (http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=87676)

[EvolutionArmory]

And like Mars said, you need a baseline. I got a baseline dyno where my peak MAF was 270 near redline. Through tweaking I was able to move that 270 number 1000 rpm’s forward and now make 270 at 5800 to 6K and make 280-290 from 6-7K. On the 2nd dyno my peak power went up 17 HP and my torque curve is much fatter. Peak torque stayed the same but the curve got longer. Torque used to taper to 250 wheel at 5K. Now it’s 250 wheel at 6K.

This is where the dyno is most useful. Not just for bragging rights. It’s most useful in showing you the curve and where power is being made.


Sent from my iPhone using Audizine (http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=87676)

[Mars2]

I was speaking of Dyno baseline not MAF baseline.

As you can see easy those 280-290 from 6 to 7k don't multiply by the same number to get WHP as those 270G.s at 5800 rpm. other wise your max WHP would be at 6900rpm.
It is same for me. My last dyno was with high crack pressure and MBC to control overboots in midrange and my peak HP was at 6100 rpm even though the MAF and timing continue increasing until 6900 rpm.

[EvolutionArmory]

I was speaking of Dyno baseline not MAF baseline.

As you can see easy those 280-290 from 6 to 7k don't multiply by the same number to get WHP as those 270G.s at 5800 rpm. other wise your max WHP would be at 6900rpm.
It is same for me. My last dyno was with high crack pressure and MBC to control overboots in midrange and my peak HP was at 6100 rpm even though the MAF and timing continue increasing until 6900 rpm.

I was talking about the dyno too. My car made 270 WHP with a peak MAF of 270. Then I made 287 WHP with a peak MAF of 287 🤣

The power numbers equaling the peak MAF is probably a coincidence but once I had a baseline dyno to work from I could see that the tweaks I did to the car changed my logs and could assume that I was going in the right direction. And as it turns out, I made power.

My whole MAF curve moved forward, not just peak. It made more MAF everywhere. If your peak MAF goes from 270 near redline to 270 a 1000 RPM sooner, it’s safe to say you picked up some power everywhere.


Sent from my iPhone using Audizine (http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=87676)

[EvolutionArmory]

Another thing the dyno runs showed me is running more boost down low only raised peak torque, not really the whole torque curve.

The run I did with the most boost made the most torque but HP went down a few points.

My last dyno run was a little disappointing because I was getting some timing pull on cylinder 1 and 4 because I was only running 2 meth nozzles. Now that I’m running direct port and get no correction, I probably gained another 10-15 HP between 5-6K. [emoji3]


Sent from my iPhone using Audizine (http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=87676)

[Traptalk]

Another thing the dyno runs showed me is running more boost down low only raised peak torque, not really the whole torque curve.

The run I did with the most boost made the most torque but HP went down a few points.

My last dyno run was a little disappointing because I was getting some timing pull on cylinder 1 and 4 because I was only running 2 meth nozzles. Now that I’m running direct port and get no correction, I probably gained another 10-15 HP between 5-6K. [emoji3]


Sent from my iPhone using Audizine (http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=87676)

Like I said before I think it’s safe to speculate that if the emphasis is put on tq you may sacrifice some hp and vice versa

I believe this is why tuners can torque limit certain cars/tunes but still make great peak hp numbers

[EvolutionArmory]

More people in this thread need to hit the dyno. Not necessarily for the peak numbers but more for looking at the curve.

You guys need to see if this custom tuner is actually doing anything to make the cars more powerful or if he’s just wasting everyone’s time and money.

It’s safe for me to say that his tune is probably better than IE’s off the shelf tune but is it better than anything else?


Sent from my iPhone using Audizine (http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=87676)

[Traptalk]

I’m not custom tuned anymore so not sure who you are addressing



My power curve can be found at goapr.com lol

Noticing there curve shows peak tq at 4k but in 3rd gear I’m hitting it at 3k. Gonna have to log fourth gear and see where that hits peak maybe they do some torque by gear

But also have to remember dynos are not easily accessible for everyone or cheap.

So to pay money to see a curve of stock car is not very exciting or anything get motivated about or waste money and time on and I think most would just prefer to see the end result when it’s finished or close to finished

In my situation where I’d have travel 90 minutes each way to the dyno and rent it for a minimum of 2 hours at $100/hour I would definitely skip the stock dyno

If it were closer and maybe could rent it for a single hour or was many dyno days could get in on than it would be worth the effort or at least to me

At this point I’ll probably never dyno this car to verify it’s low hp and tq numbers I don’t need to pay money I can just drive it lol

[EvolutionArmory]

I was referring to everyone.

And you aren’t seeing your powerband on APR’s website. You’re seeing their test car’s powerband.

[EvolutionArmory]

The dyno helped me figure out that I’m probably never gonna hit 300 WHP or more on my current fuel pump.

Dyno shows huge drop in power at 5K.
208300

This lead me down the rabbit hole to finding out that 2 cylinders were pulling timing. Fixed that with direct injection but found out that timing still dips at 5K.
208302

Did some more logging and found out that low pressure fuel is struggling to meet requested and can’t from 5K to redline and only running 70% meth brings it back up.

208304


My fuel pump is leaving some decent power on the table and a Walbro 450 is on the way.

Logs only get you so far. Dyno graphs can help sort out the rest. You could have good peak numbers but if your powerband is a shit show, your car isn’t running right.


Sent from my iPhone using Audizine (http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=87676)

[Mars2]

I was talking about the dyno too. My car made 270 WHP with a peak MAF of 270. Then I made 287 WHP with a peak MAF of 287 🤣

The power numbers equaling the peak MAF is probably a coincidence but once I had a baseline dyno to work from I could see that the tweaks I did to the car changed my logs and could assume that I was going in the right direction. And as it turns out, I made power.

My whole MAF curve moved forward, not just peak. It made more MAF everywhere. If your peak MAF goes from 270 near redline to 270 a 1000 RPM sooner, it’s safe to say you picked up some power everywhere.


Sent from my iPhone using Audizine (http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=87676)


Do you have a log showing this 287G.s at 5800rpm?
I would love to see that.

[EvolutionArmory]

Do you have a log showing this 287G.s at 5800rpm?
I would love to see that.

Find one post where I said I made that much at 5800....

The post you quoted doesn’t even say that.

My car used to make 270 near redline. Now it makes 270 1000 RPM sooner.

208307




Sent from my iPhone using Audizine (http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=87676)

[Traptalk]

Found vp m1 methanol and m5 methanol locally

M5 their newer offering with some additives they claim a 5-7% power bump over m1

Think going to grab 5 gallons of each today

[Mars2]

I’m not custom tuned anymore so not sure who you are addressing



My power curve can be found at goapr.com lol

Noticing there curve shows peak tq at 4k but in 3rd gear I’m hitting it at 3k. Gonna have to log fourth gear and see where that hits peak maybe they do some torque by gear

But also have to remember dynos are not easily accessible for everyone or cheap.

So to pay money to see a curve of stock car is not very exciting or anything get motivated about or waste money and time on and I think most would just prefer to see the end result when it’s finished or close to finished

In my situation where I’d have travel 90 minutes each way to the dyno and rent it for a minimum of 2 hours at $100/hour I would definitely skip the stock dyno

If it were closer and maybe could rent it for a single hour or was many dyno days could get in on than it would be worth the effort or at least to me

At this point I’ll probably never dyno this car to verify it’s low hp and tq numbers I don’t need to pay money I can just drive it lol

You can use virtual dyno or perfexpert to see the shape of your power curve. Even if the number are not 100% accurate the curve shape is if you set up good parameter, it will be very accurate to what you get on a dyno. At least for me it is. every single bump or dip that I get on my dyno are also on those application dyno. Then you can see every time you make a change what is happening. Just never use those number on a forum or people wlll bash you 😂😂😂 It's just a personal tool.

Some tuner use those as a quick tool to see mod effect. I see that stratified use a lot Virtual dyno as a tuning tool ( not for the number's)

[Mars2]

Find one post where I said I made that much at 5800....

The post you quoted doesn’t even say that.

My car used to make 270 near redline. Now it makes 270 1000 RPM sooner.

208307


.
Sent from my iPhone using Audizine (http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=87676)

No you did not say exactly that but you say that your car make max power at 5800rpm and then you say your car power and MAF is 1:1
So in my mind that implement that if your car make 287 whp at 5800rpm it also make 287G/s ( 1:1 rule)
if its not at this rpm then your 1:1 rule is totally irrelevant and just a guess

[EvolutionArmory]

All I said was that both times my car made almost exactly the same WHP as my peak MAF.

Going forward I doubt that 1:1 peak MAF to WHP correlation will happen as I’m probably maxed out on flow up top. I will probably only make more gains through fuel and timing tweaks.

One thing I would be curious about but would never do is run a cut out on my downpipe. I think that would be the only other way I could make more power with flow or boost

I still want to run 100% MBC at 22 PSI but I have to deal with my fuel pump issue first. No point in adding boost if I can’t fuel it.


Sent from my iPhone using Audizine (http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=87676)

[Mars2]

yes your WHP to MAF ratio is more than 1 it's about 1,06 (287/270) and I was on my last dyno 1,16 thank's to E85

If we go with your approximate theory some of the IE tuned K04 would make 330 WHP!
Or I could come with something like my car make WHP 2 time the MAF reading. And then a few month later we discover that my car make 2 time the MAF reading at 2500 rpm 🤣🤣🤣
Just kidding you

[bb-tt]

Do you have a log showing this 287G.s at 5800rpm?
I would love to see that.

i know wasn't directed at me but fwiw

https://i.imgur.com/nhmNOpw.png

[Mars2]

i know wasn't directed at me but fwiw

https://i.imgur.com/nhmNOpw.png

Wow this is great. Make me jealous I have been thinking over and over to go IHI hybrid or genuine K04-064.
But the much easier implementation of a IHI Hybrid on my Van Got me.
The max I could manage at 5700 was 277G/s with about same amount of boost as you!

Look like the genuine K04-064 is way superior to my IHI hybrid and to the chinese K04-064.
Very happy for you.

[EvolutionArmory]

Wow this is great. Make me jealous I have been thinking over and over to go IHI hybrid or genuine K04-064.
But the much easier implementation of a IHI Hybrid on my Van Got me.
The max I could manage at 5700 was 277G/s with about same amount of boost as you!

Look like the genuine K04-064 is way superior to my IHI hybrid and to the chinese K04-064.
Very happy for you.

Do you think this goes back to the conversations we all had about exhaust housings and manifold size a few months back?

These Chinese housings probably aren’t true K04-064 specs. The hardest thing about it is it’s hard to measure and prove. I still believe the biggest restriction is always going to be the turbo’s own housing and manifold. Which is why all these custom wheels don’t seem to outflow BW wheels, except on paper.


Sent from my iPhone using Audizine (http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=87676)

[Mars2]

I don't know to be true.

-I was more thinking about tolerance between Compressor and turbine wheel and their housing.
This as big effect on efficiency of compressor and turbine.

- could be the shape of the turbine and the compressor wheel. on many platform they have proved that after market wheel are often less efficient than oem turbo wheel. even sometime when moving from cast compressor wheel to Billet compressor aftermarket wheel.

- Or it could be that the chinese use K03 manifold just milled to fit K04 turbine or the KO3 compressor housing milled to fit the 2283 compressor wheel. or both from K03
If I had both housing I could use 3D scan to see if chinese Manifold and Compressor housing are genuine KO4 measurement.

[EvolutionArmory]

I wonder if you could just seal off the housings and fill with liquid. If the K04 housing and manifold holds more liquid, it also holds more air.

But you’d have to have one of each and be able to seal off everything.


Sent from my iPhone using Audizine (http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=87676)

[Mars2]

yes that should work

[Iceman502]

As an alternative to PerfExpert, I thought VCDS had built-in hp and tq parameters you could log? Yes, they're an estimate, but they're based on engine parameters whereas PerfExpert is using motion data. Whatever their model is, seems to be pretty accurate

[Mars2]

my VCDS torque is totally off. Or I did not realize I have about 450 CHP 🤣

[Brandon K.]

Here is my two cents (as if anybody cares). Lol

I think dyno tuning is really useful if you are doing true custom tuning. There are a lot of parameters that can be adjusted AKA variables. With so many things that can be changed, it is difficult to “feel” if you are on the right track as you make your adjustments. However, for most of us, we are not custom tuning on our own software. We have way fewer variables to work with, so it’s not hard to use your “but dyno” to see if something “feels” faster. My experience is that what “feels” fastest has been when using performance meters on the same strech of road in similar conditions... I plan to update to a dragy for Christmas.

This also has been somewhat confirmed with my meth tuning when using VCDS logs with the 100 octane file. What has yielded the best “feel” are logs showing up to 2.3 degrees of timing pull on varied cylinders over a wide RPM range. When I compare my logs to my Malone custom tuned logs for 92 octane fuel, they look very similar. There’s show about 2.3 degrees of consistent timing pull on all cylinders over a super wide RPM range. I think I am going to post their tune’s logs vs my meth tune logs on my “Brandon’s Meth Addiction” thread for anybody interested.

I bet that most of us are so familiar with our cars that we can detect a 2% variation in power output.

Anybody that has used a variable controller with their meth system should be able to attest that as they move the dials, they can feel the power delivery change.

For meth tuning, you truly only have a couple of variables; more or less meth and injecting earlier or later in the RPM range.

Mars with his JB4 only has more or less boost and at what 500 rpm increment.

Hats off to those of you that are custom tuning and using a dyno though!


Sent from my iPhone using [url=http://r.tapatalk.com/burl]

[EvolutionArmory]

As an alternative to PerfExpert, I thought VCDS had built-in hp and tq parameters you could log? Yes, they're an estimate, but they're based on engine parameters whereas PerfExpert is using motion data. Whatever their model is, seems to be pretty accurate

There is no real built in simulated dyno section with VCDS but you can estimate it with some logs and fucking with them in Excel. Block 120 is what us non MED17 users would use.

It works pretty good with stock vehicles but that goes out the window when you’re running as tuned as we are.


Sent from my iPhone using Audizine (http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=87676)

[Mars2]

Here is my two cents (as if anybody cares). Lol

I think dyno tuning is really useful if you are doing true custom tuning. There are a lot of parameters that can be adjusted AKA variables. With so many things that can be changed, it is difficult to “feel” if you are on the right track as you make your adjustments. However, for most of us, we are not custom tuning on our own software. We have way fewer variables to work with, so it’s not hard to use your “but dyno” to see if something “feels” faster. My experience is that what “feels” fastest has been when using performance meters on the same strech of road in similar conditions... I plan to update to a dragy for Christmas.

This also has been somewhat confirmed with my meth tuning when using VCDS logs with the 100 octane file. What has yielded the best “feel” are logs showing up to 2.3 degrees of timing pull on varied cylinders over a wide RPM range. When I compare my logs to my Malone custom tuned logs for 92 octane fuel, they look very similar. There’s show about 2.3 degrees of consistent timing pull on all cylinders over a super wide RPM range. I think I am going to post their tune’s logs vs my meth tune logs on my “Brandon’s Meth Addiction” thread for anybody interested.

I bet that most of us are so familiar with our cars that we can detect a 2% variation in power output.

Anybody that has used a variable controller with their meth system should be able to attest that as they move the dials, they can feel the power delivery change.

For meth tuning, you truly only have a couple of variables; more or less meth and injecting earlier or later in the RPM range.

Mars with his JB4 only has more or less boost and at what 500 rpm increment.

Hats off to those of you that are custom tuning and using a dyno though!


Sent from my iPhone using [url=http://r.tapatalk.com/burl]

2 % so you can feel a 6Hp difference out of 300. Wow you have a pretty sensitive butt! 🤣🤣🤣 I have a hard time feeling 15HP
So everyday your car must feel different with the different outside temp.

[Traptalk]

i know wasn't directed at me but fwiw

https://i.imgur.com/nhmNOpw.png


Wonder how the lower cam angle like apr uses would of worked out on my high boost hpt tune

Maybe could of over came the wall I was hitting with air mass

Hard for me to say genuine is better because my loba didn’t make any more air mass than the current turbo does, at least in my car using hpt

[Traptalk]

As an alternative to PerfExpert, I thought VCDS had built-in hp and tq parameters you could log? Yes, they're an estimate, but they're based on engine parameters whereas PerfExpert is using motion data. Whatever their model is, seems to be pretty accurate

Hpt also generates a estimated tq curve too which can use for an estimation of the power band

[Traptalk]

https://i.postimg.cc/J0kX0JD5/4563-BF0-A-38-F8-42-AF-9-CCE-6614-BAFD8119.jpg

Today’s haul

Glad to finally have a local source even if they charge $10 more than msrp

Got the can filled with e85 and am running e20 (with 93 octane) figured this would help meet the demands of a higher octane file for when I’m not in boost and spraying meth

Excited to try this m5 out. Supposed to make 5-7% more power than m1 because of the additives in it.

Be interesting if can actually feel that 5-7% from the driver seat

[Brandon K.]

2 % so you can feel a 6Hp difference out of 300. Wow you have a pretty sensitive butt! 🤣🤣🤣 I have a hard time feeling 15HP
So everyday your car must feel different with the different outside temp.

Yep...
Really, I figured most car enthusiasts were like that. As an odd side not, I always sucked at sports but could drive like a nut on the road at 10 10ths pace, drifting the car through every turn when I was young. That I did realize I was good at, plus having no fear behind the wheal helped. Now that I am older, I limit myself to 9 10th.


Sent from my iPhone using [url=http://r.tapatalk.com/burl]

[Mars2]

Hpt also generates a estimated tq curve too which can use for an estimation of the power band

look like it's also way off on HPT because BB-TT with 267lb-FT would only make 293 Crank HP. that is very low

[Brandon K.]

Yep...
Really, I figured most car enthusiasts were like that. As an odd side not, I always sucked at sports but could drive like a nut on the road at 10 10ths pace, drifting the car through every turn when I was young. That I did realize I was good at, plus having no fear behind the wheal helped. Now that I am older, I limit myself to 9 10th.


Sent from my iPhone using [url=http://r.tapatalk.com/burl]

Can you honestly not tell a 15 degree Fahrenheit change in outdoor temp in the power output of your car? 20 degrees is very noticeable to me.


Sent from my iPhone using [url=http://r.tapatalk.com/burl]

[Traptalk]

look like it's also way off on HPT because BB-TT with 267lb-FT would only make 293 Crank HP. that is very low

It’s like you say with those apps you recommended the numbers don’t mean as much as the shape

Can easily tell where peak tq is and where it begins to taper off even if the exact values aren’t totally accurate

This is where the car believes it is making peak tq, at least

[Mars2]

On VCDS my torque value are almost flat from 3000 to 7000 rpm at something like 480NM So flat torque curve shape and peaky HP curve

[EvolutionArmory]

Yep...
Really, I figured most car enthusiasts were like that. As an odd side not, I always sucked at sports but could drive like a nut on the road at 10 10ths pace, drifting the car through every turn when I was young. That I did realize I was good at, plus having no fear behind the wheal helped. Now that I am older, I limit myself to 9 10th.


Sent from my iPhone using

You can not feel a 2-5% difference in power in the drivers seat no matter how tuned in to your car you are.

2% is like 6 HP for most people in this thread.


Sent from my iPhone using [url=http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=87676]Audizine (http://r.tapatalk.com/burl)

[Iceman502]

Got the MBC hooked up in line with the N75 with some interesting results. I had had the battery disconnected to drop and reupholster the headliner, so the computer had been completely reset from being disconnected so long.

With the GFB MBC, you can completley close the valve. So I did, would drive a stretch and get up to part throttle around 3500 rpm where the boost pulsations would occur. Then I'd pull over, open the MBC a half turn (very fine threads), and repeated until the boost pulsations went away. Then, I took this log.

https://datazap.me/u/iceman502/mbc-inline-wg-1?log=0&data=0-3-4-7&solo=1-2-5-6-7&mark=72-81

Now, I hit and overboosted past my target, eventually tapering to 19 psi at 6466 rpm. That once again maxes my N75 duty cycle since altering "perceived crack pressure" will bring my boost spec/actual in line down low, but eventually it comes down to spring pressure at high rpms. I want to continue driving and let it adapt while continuing to closely monitor, making any quarter turn adjustments if I find them necessary.

Once that's all done, I'll pull the MBC and hook a gauge up on both sides, with a compressor on one, so that I can measure what my pressure in and pressure out is. That delta should tell me how much I need to step up the actual crack pressure on the turbo. Best case scenario is I can get a pretty exact number, pull the turbo one more time, set it, and be done.

Edit: I have no idea what the ratio between turns on the MBC and pressure vented is, but all I can say is from completely closed to where it is now, I completed ~2 turns, so my crack pressure delta shouldn't be much!

[Traptalk]

Got the MBC hooked up in line with the N75 with some interesting results. I had had the battery disconnected to drop and reupholster the headliner, so the computer had been completely reset from being disconnected so long.

With the GFB MBC, you can completley close the valve. So I did, would drive a stretch and get up to part throttle around 3500 rpm where the boost pulsations would occur. Then I'd pull over, open the MBC a half turn (very fine threads), and repeated until the boost pulsations went away. Then, I took this log.

https://datazap.me/u/iceman502/mbc-inline-wg-1?log=0&data=0-3-4-7&solo=1-2-5-6-7&mark=72-81

Now, I hit and overboosted past my target, eventually tapering to 19 psi at 6466 rpm. That once again maxes my N75 duty cycle since altering "perceived crack pressure" will bring my boost spec/actual in line down low, but eventually it comes down to spring pressure at high rpms. I want to continue driving and let it adapt while continuing to closely monitor, making any quarter turn adjustments if I find them necessary.

Once that's all done, I'll pull the MBC and hook a gauge up on both sides, with a compressor on one, so that I can measure what my pressure in and pressure out is. That delta should tell me how much I need to step up the actual crack pressure on the turbo. Best case scenario is I can get a pretty exact number, pull the turbo one more time, set it, and be done.

Edit: I have no idea what the ratio between turns on the MBC and pressure vented is, but all I can say is from completely closed to where it is now, I completed ~2 turns, so my crack pressure delta shouldn't be much!

Air mass looks great!

Seems like your rpm climb pretty quick as well judging by the slope of the rpm curve but maybe that’s an effect of the resolution or frame rate

Weird how the n75 shoots to 100% but there is no increase in the actual boost. It tapers off hard after that peak over boost.

Somethings definitely up with that tune to where increasing the n75 duty appears to have no effect at all on the boost level

[Brandon K.]

You can not feel a 2-5% difference in power in the drivers seat no matter how tuned in to your car you are.

2% is like 6 HP for most people in this thread.


Sent from my iPhone using Audizine (http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=87676)

Hate to tell you, but I believe I can. I am sorry you don’t believe me. But with practice when I was younger, I could also balance for minutes on end leaned back in a chair on two legs just my shifting how far I had my legs extended.

I can feel the difference in acceleration when there is a 15 degree difference in outside temp, when there is more than 50 lbs of stuff in the car or with the gas tank full vs empty.

Maybe you can relate if I give you an example that you should be able to quantify. Can you feel an acceleration difference when you have a 150lb passenger in your car (I would think you could)? What about when it’s a petite 100 lb woman? I can tell when it’s a kid that Is 50-60lbs or more. That 50 ish pounds is less than a 2% difference in total mass of the car and the 100 woman is less than 3%

Avant mass is roughly 3800 lb + my fat ass 200 lb = 4000lb

100lb/4000lb = 2.5%.
50lb/4000lb = 1.75%
1.75% x 300 = 5.25HP

How heavy does someone/some thing have to be before you can tell? If it 300 lbs, than yes you should stick to only tuning on a dyno, because your but dyno sucks.



Sent from my iPhone using [url=http://r.tapatalk.com/burl]

[Traptalk]

Hate to tell you, but I believe I can. I am sorry you don’t believe me. But with practice when I was younger, I could also balance for minutes on end leaned back in a chair on two legs just my shifting how far I had my legs extended.

I can feel the difference in acceleration when there is a 15 degree difference in outside temp, when there is more than 50 lbs of stuff in the car or with the gas tank full vs empty.

Maybe you can relate if I give you an example that you should be able to quantify. Can you feel an acceleration difference when you have a 150lb passenger in your car (I would think you could)? What about when it’s a petite 100 lb woman? I can tell when it’s a kid that Is 50-60lbs or more. That 50 ish pounds is less than a 2% difference in total mass of the car and the 100 woman is less than 3%

Avant mass is roughly 3800 lb + my fat ass 200 lb = 4000lb

100lb/4000lb = 2.5%.
50lb/4000lb = 1.75%
1.75% x 300 = 5.25HP

How heavy does someone/some thing have to be before you can tell? If it 300 lbs, than yes you should stick to only tuning on a dyno, because your but dyno sucks.



Sent from my iPhone using [url=http://r.tapatalk.com/burl]

I can definitely feel a difference between a full tank and 1/4 tank and having passengers in the car, definitely feel a difference with temps too

Hell I’m feeling a difference from the weight of my winter tires

[Brandon K.]

I can definitely feel a difference between a full tank and 1/4 tank and having passengers in the car, definitely feel a difference with temps too

Hell I’m feeling a difference from the weight of my winter tires

I figured, it was not just me. The reason the weight of tires is more noticeable than expected is because it’s a rotating mass that you have to accelerate. So not only do you need to move them down the road, but also spin them quickly up to speed and that takes a lot of energy. Often people will complain when they move to a larger diameter wheel because they are putting extra weight were they REALLY don’t want it.

A simple comparison is to think about it as adding weight to your flywheel when accelerating.


Sent from my iPhone using [url=http://r.tapatalk.com/burl]

[Iceman502]

Air mass looks great!

Seems like your rpm climb pretty quick as well judging by the slope of the rpm curve but maybe that’s an effect of the resolution or frame rate

Weird how the n75 shoots to 100% but there is no increase in the actual boost. It tapers off hard after that peak over boost.

Somethings definitely up with that tune to where increasing the n75 duty appears to have no effect at all on the boost level

This was taken with VCDS, group UDS, turbo, but Datazap certainly can scale things weirdly since it's trying to fit so many data sets with different ranges into the same view.

I am pleased with both the linearity of the curve and a peak airflow of 288 g/s, which, after crack pressure is bumped up a hair, could increase a little further perhaps? Once this whole process is taken care of, I'm going to reach out to the Audi Carolinas group around RDU and see if I can borrow someone's draggy dongle to get 0-60 and quarter-mile times. It's worth saying thank you to Evo again for the MBC loan - I will be getting that back to you!

The only thing I can think of regarding the N75 behavior is that as rpms climb and the engine is sucking in more air, the actual spring pressure being too low is allowing the WG to open a hair faster than what the N75 map is expecting it to, so it never corrects to a high enough degree to maintain boost. Even if that is the case, I wish the controller was more advanced and could adapt to a wider degree. Who knows, as the ECU starts to settle, maybe it will.

[Traptalk]

I figured, it was not just me. The reason the weight of tires is more noticeable than expected is because it’s a rotating mass that you have to accelerate. So not only do you need to move them down the road, but also spin them quickly up to speed and that takes a lot of energy. Often people will complain when they move to a larger diameter wheel because they are putting extra weight were they REALLY don’t want it.

A simple comparison is to think about it as adding weight to your flywheel when accelerating.


Sent from my iPhone using [url=http://r.tapatalk.com/burl]

Yeah I’ve been warning people on the effects of bigger wheels too

I got 19x9.5” rohanas when I first got the car and it was miserable to drive.

Ride quality went down as well as feeling slower

[Perry01]

Got the MBC hooked up in line with the N75 with some interesting results. I had had the battery disconnected to drop and reupholster the headliner, so the computer had been completely reset from being disconnected so long.

With the GFB MBC, you can completley close the valve. So I did, would drive a stretch and get up to part throttle around 3500 rpm where the boost pulsations would occur. Then I'd pull over, open the MBC a half turn (very fine threads), and repeated until the boost pulsations went away. Then, I took this log.

https://datazap.me/u/iceman502/mbc-inline-wg-1?log=0&data=0-3-4-7&solo=1-2-5-6-7&mark=72-81

Now, I hit and overboosted past my target, eventually tapering to 19 psi at 6466 rpm. That once again maxes my N75 duty cycle since altering "perceived crack pressure" will bring my boost spec/actual in line down low, but eventually it comes down to spring pressure at high rpms. I want to continue driving and let it adapt while continuing to closely monitor, making any quarter turn adjustments if I find them necessary.

Now your flowing some air! 288 g/s is good. Are you on the custom tune bandwagon with the others? Surely you can’t be still running the inferior OTS IE tune?

[EvolutionArmory]

Now your flowing some air! 288 g/s is good. Are you on the custom tune bandwagon with the others? Surely you can’t be still running the inferior OTS IE tune?


He is on IE. The problem was that the boost data wouldn’t really change no matter what he did. This was a recurring theme on the IE tune which is why everyone very incorrectly thought I was wrong about raising crack pressure.

What I would like to see is how his car runs with his crack pressure bumped up to 8-10, highest it can with still having 10mm rod travel, but only running the MBC.

If his car all of the sudden boosts right, we will know without a doubt that the IE OTS tune has crappy boost control because he’ll be taking that job away from the ECU. As long as the N75 is still plugged in, it won’t be a problem and N75 logs will be irrelevant.


Sent from my iPhone using Audizine (http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=87676)

[Perry01]

He is on IE. The problem was that the boost data wouldn’t really change no matter what he did. This was a recurring theme on the IE tune which is why everyone very incorrectly thought I was wrong about raising crack pressure.

What I would like to see is how his car runs with his crack pressure bumped up to 8-10, highest it can with still having 10mm rod travel, but only running the MBC.

If his car all of the sudden boosts right, we will know without a doubt that the IE OTS tune has crappy boost control because he’ll be taking that job away from the ECU. As long as the N75 is still plugged in, it won’t be a problem and N75 logs will be irrelevant.

If he has the old CTS K04, it’s a pain in the ass to adjust the wastegate with the turbo on the car

[Iceman502]

Now your flowing some air! 288 g/s is good. Are you on the custom tune bandwagon with the others? Surely you can’t be still running the inferior OTS IE tune?

Still faithful to IE, I want the B12 suspension kit more than I want to switch tuning, especially since this is proving I could still better calibrate the hardware to match the tune.


He is on IE. The problem was that the boost data wouldn’t really change no matter what he did. This was a recurring theme on the IE tune which is why everyone very incorrectly thought I was wrong about raising crack pressure.

What I would like to see is how his car runs with his crack pressure bumped up to 8-10, highest it can with still having 10mm rod travel, but only running the MBC.

If his car all of the sudden boosts right, we will know without a doubt that the IE OTS tune has crappy boost control because he’ll be taking that job away from the ECU. As long as the N75 is still plugged in, it won’t be a problem and N75 logs will be irrelevant.


I think the highest I could go with this actuator and that travel distance is going to be maybe 8.5 psi. Once I figure out the crack pressure delta, I don't mind trying just the MBC before the N75. At this point I have everything plumbed in and switching/capping lines is pretty easy.


If he has the old CTS K04, it’s a pain in the ass to adjust the wastegate with the turbo on the car

I have the eBay turbo Spwane originally spec'd out in Post #1, with the Melett core. After the jam nut backed off once before, I installed a second one. That makes adjusting crack pressure with the turbo on the car damn near impossible. You also can't see the wg with the cat on. It will start to spin before the arm actually moves, so to be consistent with my procedure, the best move is to pull it [mad]

[Traptalk]

Ran some e20 in the tank with the meth (not the vp meth)

And saw 20 degrees of timing up top. Guess there is room to grow if the fuel allows it

[Nano909]

Hate to tell you, but I believe I can. I am sorry you don’t believe me. But with practice when I was younger, I could also balance for minutes on end leaned back in a chair on two legs just my shifting how far I had my legs extended.

I can feel the difference in acceleration when there is a 15 degree difference in outside temp, when there is more than 50 lbs of stuff in the car or with the gas tank full vs empty.

Maybe you can relate if I give you an example that you should be able to quantify. Can you feel an acceleration difference when you have a 150lb passenger in your car (I would think you could)? What about when it’s a petite 100 lb woman? I can tell when it’s a kid that Is 50-60lbs or more. That 50 ish pounds is less than a 2% difference in total mass of the car and the 100 woman is less than 3%

Avant mass is roughly 3800 lb + my fat ass 200 lb = 4000lb

100lb/4000lb = 2.5%.
50lb/4000lb = 1.75%
1.75% x 300 = 5.25HP

How heavy does someone/some thing have to be before you can tell? If it 300 lbs, than yes you should stick to only tuning on a dyno, because your but dyno sucks.



Sent from my iPhone using [url=http://r.tapatalk.com/burl]

I believe you as I can feel whatever small thing happens to my car.

[Nano909]

Yeah I’ve been warning people on the effects of bigger wheels too

I got 19x9.5” rohanas when I first got the car and it was miserable to drive.

Ride quality went down as well as feeling slower

Yeah my car felt slower once I added the 19x9 S5 Peelers. Lol. Heeeeavy wheels.

[EvolutionArmory]

Wheels are going to change how the car drives dramatically but that’s not what I’m talking about. I’m talking about your engine going from making 294 to making 300 HP all other things being equal. You aren’t going to be able to feel that.

Rotational mass is a different story because now you’re taking away drivetrain loss. Cutting weight is a different story. I’m talking about a 2-5% gain in engine power. Your car can be 2-5% faster depending on what time it is during the same day or if your exhaust is warmed up or not. You can’t feel that in the drivers seat.

Even on a dyno your 3rd pull is usually 2-5% more powerful than your first and that’s just because your exhaust and car is up to full temp. You can’t feel that on the street.


Sent from my iPhone using Audizine (http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=87676)

[EvolutionArmory]

Ran some e20 in the tank with the meth (not the vp meth)

And saw 20 degrees of timing up top. Guess there is room to grow if the fuel allows it

It feels nice to make forward progress doesn’t it.


Sent from my iPhone using Audizine (http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=87676)

[Traptalk]

It feels nice to make forward progress doesn’t it.


Sent from my iPhone using Audizine (http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=87676)

I guess

Ran my quickest 1/4 mile time last night on the winter tires but I got an issue with my trans tune now lol

Was putting off tcu tuning till the ecu was done to eliminate variables

I can brake boost to 4k rpm on launch but as soon as I release the brake the car autoshifts into second even in manual mode

Not sure what that’s about

[EvolutionArmory]

So your APR tune is faster than IE and the custom tune with snow tires on and not shifting right? 🤣🤣🤣


Sent from my iPhone using Audizine (http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=87676)

[Spawne32]

So your APR tune is faster than IE and the custom tune with snow tires on and not shifting right? 🤣🤣🤣


Sent from my iPhone using Audizine (http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=87676)

He's on E20 and meth and ran a 13. bb ran a 12.85 on 93 on the hptuners custom tune. If trap ran it with a tank of 93 in it, he'd probably run a 13.2-13.3. It's not impressive at all.

[EvolutionArmory]

And trap was on snow tires and not shifting right and he made his own personal best run.

What do you think a 13 would be if he had tires and not auto shifting into 2nd? I’d say lower but what do I know?


Sent from my iPhone using Audizine (http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=87676)

[Spawne32]

And trap was on snow tires and not shifting right and he made his own personal best run.

What do you think a 13 would be if he had tires and not auto shifting into 2nd? I’d say lower but what do I know?


Sent from my iPhone using Audizine (http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=87676)

We don't know, and the fact that he gets almost 20 degrees of ignition timing compared to us barely being able to scratch out 10, plays a big factor in how much more power he will make. We are continuing to learn more by the day though with these comparisons, so the custom tune will improve. BB has graciously been acting as the test subject for most of these changes.

[EvolutionArmory]

So Trap rolled out a 13 second ET with snow tires and launching in 2nd but what was his trap speed?

Trap speed tells you how much power you make. You can blow a launch or miss a shift and still have a good trap with a less than ideal ET.


Sent from my iPhone using Audizine (http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=87676)

[Spawne32]

So Trap rolled out a 13 second ET with snow tires and launching in 2nd but what was his trap speed?

Trap speed tells you how much power you make. You can blow a launch or miss a shift and still have a good trap with a less than ideal ET.


Sent from my iPhone using Audizine (http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=87676)

104mph, bb trapped 105mph on 93 pump gas when he ran the 12.85.

[EvolutionArmory]

Looks like we will have to wait for trap to get his transmission shifting right and have him run a straight 93 quarter mile.


Sent from my iPhone using Audizine (http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=87676)

[EvolutionArmory]

Here’s a APR tuned car trapping 106 MPH on 93 from 7 years ago. And that was on V1 of the K04 tune, not V3

What I’m saying is it looks like you guys are spending all this effort just to have cars that are as fast or slightly slower than a good OTS tune.

V1
208465

V2
208466

He ended up flashing V3 later but didn’t have any real gains.


Sent from my iPhone using Audizine (http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=87676)

[Mars2]

today adjust Crack pressure 2 turn up.
I went down 3 turn to control boost at red line with Race chip.

Dial some new boost number and after 5 run I got this that I'm pretty happy with.
The van feel very strong
Now I will rework again my 5th injector map. I need more fuel around 4500 rpm.
208475

[Mars2]

I will just try to drop a bit boost from 6500 to 7000

[Perry01]

104mph, bb trapped 105mph on 93 pump gas when he ran the 12.85.

Let us not forget he has a a BW K04-0064

[Traptalk]

So your APR tune is faster than IE and the custom tune with snow tires on and not shifting right? 🤣🤣🤣


Sent from my iPhone using Audizine (http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=87676)

I’ve never ran ie but it appears so

But I never got to run a pass with this turbo on the custom tune with the misfires

Was comparing to pass on the loba with a custom tune.

Really wasn’t a good pass at all between the wheel spin, the bad shift, and I thought would be a good idea to put my lap top in the open glove box to log and I ejected the laptop into the passenger seat with 90% of the glove box contents so was kinda distracted lol

But seems like there is more potential there once figure out best launch point and shift point

[Traptalk]

I think I’ll beat bb’s time pretty easy with some practice tho

With all the bad tunes I was running this is only the 3rd pass I’ve ever been able to finish and wasn’t really a serious attempt which is why I didn’t share it

I shared it to spawnee privately just to show some progress and now he’s acting like it’s all it’s capable of


No bro, it was a bad pass I can admit that 😂

[Brandon K.]

Wheels are going to change how the car drives dramatically but that’s not what I’m talking about. I’m talking about your engine going from making 294 to making 300 HP all other things being equal. You aren’t going to be able to feel that.

Rotational mass is a different story because now you’re taking away drivetrain loss. Cutting weight is a different story. I’m talking about a 2-5% gain in engine power. Your car can be 2-5% faster depending on what time it is during the same day or if your exhaust is warmed up or not. You can’t feel that in the drivers seat.

Even on a dyno your 3rd pull is usually 2-5% more powerful than your first and that’s just because your exhaust and car is up to full temp. You can’t feel that on the street.


Sent from my iPhone using Audizine (http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=87676)

Dude

You are right about this with two exceptions, some of us can feel these small differences (You basically just admitted that you can’t tell when your car is heat soaked, but it is the entire reason why we upgrade our intercoolers) and changing the power to weight ratio has a VERY similar impact on straight line performance as changing the proportional power output of the motor. Yes, rotational mass is different and wind resistance comes into play at higher speeds.

I think the real issue here is you can’t stand to be wrong. Like most of us, I to have read it over and over....your continued insistence on being right about everything. I can tell you are a smart person, but sometimes even smart people are wrong. The sooner you learn that the better off you will be.


Sent from my iPhone using [url=http://r.tapatalk.com/burl]

[EvolutionArmory]

BB is making the same times as people were with APR tunes 6-7 years ago.

Seems like APR is still the way to go with B8 tuning.


Sent from my iPhone using Audizine (http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=87676)

[Traptalk]

Shane was doing 12.5’s consistently with a properly tuned tcu on apr 100 and I definitely think that’s possible with practice

At the end of the day tho BB is the only car that’s running correctly on hpt which is why he is the guinea pig

I have no doubt a proper custom tune would go slightly faster and make slightly more power but I just don’t have the will or drive to use a fucked up car while dude learns to tune the car correctly.

I can’t stomach it anymore. It made owning and driving the car a totally miserable experience. I do feel less torque but just going to have to settle and live with it

[JLAllroad]

I guess

Ran my quickest 1/4 mile time last night on the winter tires but I got an issue with my trans tune now lol

Was putting off tcu tuning till the ecu was done to eliminate variables

I can brake boost to 4k rpm on launch but as soon as I release the brake the car autoshifts into second even in manual mode

Not sure what that’s about

4K is a lot, I can only get to about 3100 after 3.5 seconds (eternity) of boosting(ZF8). Try fewer rpms, guessing ESC was off, long press? Typically I’m in manual while allowing auto shift. Did you try a stop and go?

I find the weirdest things under the passenger seat from the effects of launching.

Btw, add me to the club that can notice the subtle nuances of every change I make to my car without logging, just use logging for affirmation.


Sent from my iPhone using Audizine (http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=87676)

[Brandon K.]

I’ve never ran ie but it appears so

But I never got to run a pass with this turbo on the custom tune with the misfires

Was comparing to pass on the loba with a custom tune.

Really wasn’t a good pass at all between the wheel spin, the bad shift, and I thought would be a good idea to put my lap top in the open glove box to log and I ejected the laptop into the passenger seat with 90% of the glove box contents so was kinda distracted lol

But seems like there is more potential there once figure out best launch point and shift point

Keep us informed on how the TCU tune works out for you.

My transmission freaks out and goes into safety mode if I do what some others can with theirs (mash the throttle to the floor and hold it to build full boost before letting off the brake). When I do that It go’s into some sort of safety protocol and freewheels the transmission or locks it in a single gear and sets of warnings galore. I have to restart the car before it will work properly again. I have learned that if I only use part throttle and only momentarily to build RPMs to about 2200, it works fine.

I have only done this a couple of times on the APR 100 tune. What type of progressive meth controller are you using? Mine is MAF based and I have not logged it to see what it is going on during this shenanigan. If it’s not flowing meth, really bad things will likely happen. If your controller is pressure based, that may work fine but it is still a good idea to log it.

You may try my technique and get good results if the transmission is protesting, but they will not be as optimal.


Sent from my iPhone using [url=http://r.tapatalk.com/burl]

[Brandon K.]

Shane was doing 12.5’s consistently with a properly tuned tcu on apr 100 and I definitely think that’s possible with practice

At the end of the day tho BB is the only car that’s running correctly on hpt which is why he is the guinea pig

I have no doubt a proper custom tune would go slightly faster and make slightly more power but I just don’t have the will or drive to use a fucked up car while dude learns to tune the car correctly.

I can’t stomach it anymore. It made owning and driving the car a totally miserable experience. I do feel less torque but just going to have to settle and live with it

I hear you there! I basically stoped driving the car for a year and a half for that exact same reason. It was my wife bitching at me about having a car that I won’t drive that got me to switch back from a custom tune to APR. I also had to pull the HPA manifold and port meth system for this to be an option, so it felt like an extra kick to the nads. In the end, it was 100 percent worth because now its back to being my favorite car.


Sent from my iPhone using [url=http://r.tapatalk.com/burl]

[EvolutionArmory]

You can still run port meth on a plastic manifold. Trap and I do.


Sent from my iPhone using Audizine (http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=87676)

[Brandon K.]

Shane was doing 12.5’s consistently with a properly tuned tcu on apr 100 and I definitely think that’s possible with practice

At the end of the day tho BB is the only car that’s running correctly on hpt which is why he is the guinea pig

I have no doubt a proper custom tune would go slightly faster and make slightly more power but I just don’t have the will or drive to use a fucked up car while dude learns to tune the car correctly.

I can’t stomach it anymore. It made owning and driving the car a totally miserable experience. I do feel less torque but just going to have to settle and live with it

If Mars2 gets good results with his JB4, stacking it with APR may get you back some of that power you miss. It’s not ideal without timing controls, but I bet it would help.


Sent from my iPhone using [url=http://r.tapatalk.com/burl]

[Traptalk]

4K is a lot, I can only get to about 3100 after 3.5 seconds (eternity) of boosting(ZF8). Try fewer rpms, guessing ESC was off, long press? Typically I’m in manual while allowing auto shift. Did you try a stop and go?

I find the weirdest things under the passenger seat from the effects of launching.

Btw, add me to the club that can notice the subtle nuances of every change I make to my car without logging, just use logging for affirmation.


Sent from my iPhone using Audizine (http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=87676)

Traction was all the way off (long press) and in manual mode, basically just using the shift points the ecu wanted to automatically

[Traptalk]

4K is a lot, I can only get to about 3100 after 3.5 seconds (eternity) of boosting(ZF8). Try fewer rpms, guessing ESC was off, long press? Typically I’m in manual while allowing auto shift. Did you try a stop and go?

I find the weirdest things under the passenger seat from the effects of launching.

Btw, add me to the club that can notice the subtle nuances of every change I make to my car without logging, just use logging for affirmation.


Sent from my iPhone using Audizine (http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=87676)

I use the vc-50 from snow performance so it’s off pressure and the gauge shows it spraying before letting off the brake

Logs look like I built full boost before I left 😳

Gonna have to find a better place to stash the laptop during these runs

[Iceman502]

I hear you there! I basically stoped driving the car for a year and a half for that exact same reason. It was my wife bitching at me about having a car that I won’t drive that got me to switch back from a custom tune to APR. I also had to pull the HPA manifold and port meth system for this to be an option, so it felt like an extra kick to the nads. In the end, it was 100 percent worth because now its back to being my favorite car.


Sent from my iPhone using [url=http://r.tapatalk.com/burl]

Over the Porsche in your avatar??

[Jason11213]

You can still run port meth on a plastic manifold. Trap and I do.


Sent from my iPhone using Audizine (http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=87676)

Is you transmission 6MT? If so, have you run any draggy times (1/4 mi or 0-60?) Not sure how many of us here have a 6MT to compare times.

[Spawne32]

Let us not forget he has a a BW K04-0064

Which make's literally no god damn difference whatsoever.

[Spawne32]

I think I’ll beat bb’s time pretty easy with some practice tho

With all the bad tunes I was running this is only the 3rd pass I’ve ever been able to finish and wasn’t really a serious attempt which is why I didn’t share it

I shared it to spawnee privately just to show some progress and now he’s acting like it’s all it’s capable of


No bro, it was a bad pass I can admit that 😂

No i'm not saying its all its capable of, but it's not a good measure for EA to turn around and say custom tuning is crap either. We still need a lot of refinement on both ends. You gained alot more drivability with an APR tune than we have so far, and it works exactly as you intended it to, especially since you were having all those issues before and everyone kept trying to get you to put valve springs in.

[Traptalk]

Man am I happy I didn’t rush out and get springs but would be interesting to know if would change anything


Reviewing the logs of that run looks like my trans wasn’t fully up to temp and Amax didn’t set and maybe why it auto shifted after the launch like that

[Perry01]

Which make's literally no god damn difference whatsoever.

lol, tell that to all the hybrid and eBay K04 owners..

[Admin]

OP requested to have this thread deleted, but it's quite a massive thread so it shall remain visible yet closed.

If one of you wishes to start up a new thread for such discussion, please do so.