Know this turbos?

[2000s4_m]

Anyone here using "turbo concepts"? Just came across this website and i search and didnt found that many info in forums, i found that flyboy commented on his website of this turbos last year but no actuall test on them i believe. They claim to be built and balance in michigan facility

Www.turboconcepts.net


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[S4James]

They look awfully familiar. Must be another variation of china/taiwan sourced parts.

Interesting.

[S4tech2]

Looks just like the srm k24

[kj6304]

The reminder is you get what you paid for.

[NOTORIOUS VR]

Hilarious..


WARNING this turbo might not be for you. Your 2.7 car will need every upgrade there is to take advantage of these upgrade turbos, and if you follow through with it all your car will produce so much power it’ll be scary. You cannot let anyone borrow your car, you cannot drive hard in the elements, and it is not street legal in a lot of places. “This upgrade is for off-road and track use only!” You’ve been warned.

[FlyboyS4]

Anyone here using "turbo concepts"? Just came across this website and i search and didnt found that many info in forums, i found that flyboy commented on his website of this turbos last year but no actuall test on them i believe. They claim to be built and balance in michigan facility

I'm doubtful that you'll find much user feedback on their turbo's at this point, I've looked into it and there doesn't seem to be much available yet.

My interaction with turbo concepts has been positive thus far. When I have emailed them they have written back. They have a phone number. When I've called the phone number a person answers the call. I've spoken with them for a couple of hours and found them to be willing to discuss their products. From a customer service standpoint things have looked good.

The products for the B5 S4 appear to be unproven thus far. I'm very interested in seeing how the stage 1 turbo performs as it is intended as a replacement for the RS4 K04, and with a smaller compressor wheel than most of the other K04-hybrid alternatives, and a different turbine wheel than the K04, it has some potential to be a good match for my goals.

I have not looked into the stage 2 and stage 3 products as for now they aren't the flavor I'm after.

[NOTORIOUS VR]

I'm doubtful that you'll find much user feedback on their turbo's at this point, I've looked into it and there doesn't seem to be much available yet.

My interaction with turbo concepts has been positive thus far. When I have emailed them they have written back. They have a phone number. When I've called the phone number a person answers the call. I've spoken with them for a couple of hours and found them to be willing to discuss their products. From a customer service standpoint things have looked good.

The products for the B5 S4 appear to be unproven thus far. I'm very interested in seeing how the stage 1 turbo performs as it is intended as a replacement for the RS4 K04, and with a smaller compressor wheel than most of the other K04-hybrid alternatives, and a different turbine wheel than the K04, it has some potential to be a good match for my goals.

I have not looked into the stage 2 and stage 3 products as for now they aren't the flavor I'm after.

Honestly, why don't you just make up your own turbo at this point? It's not like these companies know what they're doing... you probably have a better idea then they do.

[FlyboyS4]

Honestly, why don't you just make up your own turbo at this point? It's not like these companies know what they're doing... you probably have a better idea then they do.

I have contacted some vendors who do that type of work, but I'm not interested in a custom setup for only myself.

[NOTORIOUS VR]

I have contacted some vendors who do that type of work, but I'm not interested in a custom setup for only myself.

Why not... get a couple wheels, some housings and start swapping them around and testing...

[shepa401]

I'm doubtful that you'll find much user feedback on their turbo's at this point, I've looked into it and there doesn't seem to be much available yet.

My interaction with turbo concepts has been positive thus far. When I have emailed them they have written back. They have a phone number. When I've called the phone number a person answers the call. I've spoken with them for a couple of hours and found them to be willing to discuss their products. From a customer service standpoint things have looked good.

The products for the B5 S4 appear to be unproven thus far. I'm very interested in seeing how the stage 1 turbo performs as it is intended as a replacement for the RS4 K04, and with a smaller compressor wheel than most of the other K04-hybrid alternatives, and a different turbine wheel than the K04, it has some potential to be a good match for my goals.

I have not looked into the stage 2 and stage 3 products as for now they aren't the flavor I'm after.

I have a friend who recently installed a set of TM5 turbos from Turbo Concepts on his Allroad. He mentioned that build quality was pretty good.

[sakihomo]

I have a friend who recently installed a set of TM5 turbos from Turbo Concepts on his Allroad. He mentioned that build quality was pretty good.

And in sure the opinion was based on metalurgy and tolerance! He probably had the same opinion about his harbor freight air tools...

[S4James]

Well the description does say "best turbos ev4r!" therefore they must be good.

[2000s4_m]

I have a friend who recently installed a set of TM5 turbos from Turbo Concepts on his Allroad. He mentioned that build quality was pretty good.

You can get the worst and cheapest turbo from china and for most of us it will look nice because is new. Most of the things that matter are inside, like journals, thrust bearings, seals and most important the balance process. Have your friend update us with some info, miles driven, @ psi, spool @ rpm etc...


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[sb_gli]

I am the friend in question and I do agree that harbor freight tools are the best. Instead of posting my opinion about these turbos I will post my logs. I will tell you in advance, don't expect anything different that on any other hybrid turbo on the market as far as performance is concerned. As far as build quality is concerned and the components used give them a call. The owner of turbo concepts is very knowledgeable and his expertise of turbo chargers goes far beyond creating hybrid turbos for audi and vw.

[redline380]

I am the friend in question and I do agree that harbor freight tools are the best.

This alone disqualifies your opinion on anything else since harbor freight has objectively shitty tools.

[2000s4_m]

I am the friend in question and I do agree that harbor freight tools are the best. Instead of posting my opinion about these turbos I will post my logs. I will tell you in advance, don't expect anything different that on any other hybrid turbo on the market as far as performance is concerned. As far as build quality is concerned and the components used give them a call. The owner of turbo concepts is very knowledgeable and his expertise of turbo chargers goes far beyond creating hybrid turbos for audi and vw.

What stage you got? Miles driven? This is good man, first hand info on this turbos


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[FlyboyS4]

Instead of posting my opinion about these turbos I will post my logs. I will tell you in advance, don't expect anything different that on any other hybrid turbo on the market as far as performance is concerned.

Which product, and was it before or after the turbine wheel change?

[sb_gli]

This alone disqualifies your opinion on anything else since harbor freight has objectively shitty tools.

You are right. I guess my real life data won't mean anything then. I'll just keep my logs to myself.

But seriously, I will do my best to get a log and screen shot of a WOT run posted tonight.

[sb_gli]

Which product, and was it before or after the turbine wheel change?

At the time I bought the turbos (last year) they were called TM5. Now I think they've changed branding a bit and I am not sure what other components have changed, I believe they are VERY similar to this:

http://turboconcepts.net/cars/dzx-271-audi-s4-a6-allroad-2-7t-twin-turbo-stage-1-upgrade/

[sakihomo]

I am the friend in question and I do agree that harbor freight tools are the best. Instead of posting my opinion about these turbos I will post my logs. I will tell you in advance, don't expect anything different that on any other hybrid turbo on the market as far as performance is concerned. As far as build quality is concerned and the components used give them a call. The owner of turbo concepts is very knowledgeable and his expertise of turbo chargers goes far beyond creating hybrid turbos for audi and vw.

Did he "wow" you with something like this?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MXW0bx_Ooq4

[sb_gli]

Did he "wow" you with something like this?

Do you have anything of value to add to this thread or you just trollin'?

[Zba]

[>_<]

That is the best video ever!! "drawn reciprocation dinglearm to reduce sinesoidal depleneration" LOL!!!

[FlyboyS4]

At the time I bought the turbos (last year) they were called TM5. Now I think they've changed branding a bit and I am not sure what other components have changed, I believe they are VERY similar to this:

http://turboconcepts.net/cars/dzx-271-audi-s4-a6-allroad-2-7t-twin-turbo-stage-1-upgrade/

I don't know the relationship between Turbo Concepts and Kraftwerk Turbo, but it does seem they have some connections. If I were to guess it would be that Turbo Concepts built something for Kraftwerk in the past and now Turbo Concepts is selling a product under their own name.

I thought the TM5 was a RS6/K04 hybrid, whereas the Turbo Concepts Stage 1 is a RS4/K04-like product.

The TC turbine wheel was changed over the past couple of months and apparently just now being introduced to the product line.

[redline380]

You are right. I guess my real life data won't mean anything then. I'll just keep my logs to myself.

But seriously, I will do my best to get a log and screen shot of a WOT run posted tonight.

I said your opinion is disqualified. Facts are always welcomed

[sb_gli]

I don't know the relationship between Turbo Concepts and Kraftwerk Turbo, but it does seem they have some connections. If I were to guess it would be that Turbo Concepts built something for Kraftwerk in the past and now Turbo Concepts is selling a product under their own name.

Pretty sure you hit the nail on the head. I believe Kraftwerk introduced the idea of building hybrid turbos for the audi/vw to Turbo Concepts and it just took off from there.

When I get to posting my logs, I will also post pics of the turbos that were installed on my allroad. You can be the judge of how they compare to the current product line, but I do believe it's very similar their current "Stage I" offering.

[sb_gli]

These are the turbos that I installed on my allroad.

https://scontent-ort2-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/11949476_714505952016291_7560948682176112007_n.jpg ?oh=bd236cf33ad8e2234fa1d7cd0c6e0f9a&oe=58972974

[jpurre]

Do those turbine blades look like galvanized steel instead of inconel, or is it just the lighting in the pic?

[FlyboyS4]

These are the turbos that I installed on my allroad.

The tag is turbo concepts. I saw someone with a TC product they obtained from Diverse Motorworks. It would seem a few vendors have had access to the TC products.

It appears that TC has slightly changed the product from that shown in your photo.

[sb_gli]

I would agree with that.

If anyone wants more information from TC, I suggest you call them. They are super personable and very knowledgeable and I am sure they will give you all the details you want to know about their products.

- - - Updated - - -


Do those turbine blades look like galvanized steel instead of inconel, or is it just the lighting in the pic?

lighting.

[FlyboyS4]

Do those turbine blades look like galvanized steel instead of inconel, or is it just the lighting in the pic?

Where are you seeing turbine blades? I only see one photo of the compressor side.

[S4James]

[>_<]

That is the best video ever!! "drawn reciprocation dinglearm to reduce sinesoidal depleneration" LOL!!!


number one cause of chinese turbo failure is excessive side fumbling.

[2000s4_m]

Where are you seeing turbine blades? I only see one photo of the compressor side.

I guess hes looking at the website, i think theres a pic of turbine side


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[sb_gli]

Data:

3rd gear log (https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B79F_wLN2HaIeF85d3dhNW16S2c/view?usp=sharing)

4th Gear log (https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B79F_wLN2HaIVWY1LVpSNHVTOEU/view?usp=sharing)

3rd gear log stops short of 6,000rpm, 4th gear is here to show spool up

[vtraudt]

I don't know the relationship between Turbo Concepts and Kraftwerk Turbo, but it does seem they have some connections. If I were to guess it would be that Turbo Concepts built something for Kraftwerk in the past and now Turbo Concepts is selling a product under their own name.

KraftwerkTurbo started the development of turbos that provide 'useable power' (unlike the 'big turbo' that were readily available at the time, and one turbo from Frankenturbo) and 'daily driver, fully bolt on, full stock safeties' solutions (not just dumping a turbo on a customer).

From the beginning, the actual manufacturing of those turbos were done locally at Turbo Concepts.

Then new generation of turbos themselves (new billet compressors, new high flow turbines, wastegate actuator with different stiffness, etc) are now also marketed through Turbo Concepts. KraftwerkTurbo maintains their 'TorqueMaster' TM nomenclature for the complete solutions/packages build around the turbo.

Turbo Concepts has been a TURBO ONLY BRICK AND MORTAR turbo manufacturer in Michigan for over 20 years. Manufacturing, machining, assembly, VSR balancing are all done in Michigan.

Aside from the line of Audi turbos, Turbo Concepts is highly regarded for their very successful Subaru turbos (again, emphasis on useable power vs. Friday night bragging rights peak HP figures).

[S4James]

meh.. 4+ second fats if I had to guess from the logs.. not terribly impressive.

but perhaps im missing something.

[FlyboyS4]

KraftwerkTurbo started the development of turbos that provide 'useable power' (unlike the 'big turbo' that were readily available at the time, and one turbo from Frankenturbo) and 'daily driver, fully bolt on, full stock safeties' solutions (not just dumping a turbo on a customer).

I may have asked this before, do you have any 2.7T logs for these turbo's that provide useable power?

Which turbo is the one in the log above?

I already tossed all my skepticism out there in a different thread about your company (http://www.audizine.com/forum/showthread.php/667247-Has-anyone-ever-heard-of-KraftTurbo), I won't bother rehashing the points. In for data rather than continued speculation.

[sakihomo]

KraftwerkTurbo started the development of turbos that provide 'useable power' (unlike the 'big turbo' that were readily available at the time, and one turbo from Frankenturbo) and 'daily driver, fully bolt on, full stock safeties' solutions (not just dumping a turbo on a customer).

From the beginning, the actual manufacturing of those turbos were done locally at Turbo Concepts.

Then new generation of turbos themselves (new billet compressors, new high flow turbines, wastegate actuator with different stiffness, etc) are now also marketed through Turbo Concepts. KraftwerkTurbo maintains their 'TorqueMaster' TM nomenclature for the complete solutions/packages build around the turbo.

Turbo Concepts has been a TURBO ONLY BRICK AND MORTAR turbo manufacturer in Michigan for over 20 years. Manufacturing, machining, assembly, VSR balancing are all done in Michigan.

Aside from the line of Audi turbos, Turbo Concepts is highly regarded for their very successful Subaru turbos (again, emphasis on useable power vs. Friday night bragging rights peak HP figures).

The shops that are legitimately building and balancing turbos have shown shop pics, VSR balancers etc, with clear branding to associate the machinery and process with the brand. I think you would put this all to rest if they could show some pictures of their "brick and mortar" manufacturing facility to back up the claims - 2c

[jibberjive]

What are the sizes of the 'stage 3' wheels (both turbine and compressor inducer/exducer)?

[sb_gli]

The only modifications to my allroad other than the these turbos are piggy pipes and 550 ev14 injectors. I still have the stock MAF.

[sb_gli]

The shops that are legitimately building and balancing turbos have shown shop pics, VSR balancers etc, with clear branding to associate the machinery and process with the brand. I think you would put this all to rest if they could show some pictures of their "brick and mortar" manufacturing facility to back up the claims - 2c

I don't think they owe that to you.

[jibberjive]

The only modifications to my allroad other than the these turbos are piggy pipes and 550 ev14 injectors. I still have the stock MAF.

Original allroad 6-speed, or swap? The gearing is different (regarding the FATS time, that's why I ask).

[sb_gli]

It's an original 6 speed

[vtraudt]

The only modifications to my allroad other than the these turbos are piggy pipes and 550 ev14 injectors. I still have the stock MAF.
Don't forget the tune.

[vtraudt]

Looks just like the srm k24

As in "looks like a turbo". Yes, it does.
Otherwise (details): no.

[FlyboyS4]

The shops that are legitimately building and balancing turbos have shown shop pics, VSR balancers etc, with clear branding to associate the machinery and process with the brand. I think you would put this all to rest if they could show some pictures of their "brick and mortar" manufacturing facility to back up the claims - 2c


I don't think they owe that to you.

I agree with you here.


I may have asked this before, do you have any 2.7T logs for these turbo's that provide useable power?

Which turbo is the one in the log above?

On the other hand, I expect a vendor to be able to back up statements about their products when asked.

[vtraudt]

I'm doubtful that you'll find much user feedback on their turbo's at this point, I've looked into it and there doesn't seem to be much available yet.

My interaction with turbo concepts has been positive thus far. When I have emailed them they have written back. They have a phone number. When I've called the phone number a person answers the call. I've spoken with them for a couple of hours and found them to be willing to discuss their products. From a customer service standpoint things have looked good.

The products for the B5 S4 appear to be unproven thus far. I'm very interested in seeing how the stage 1 turbo performs as it is intended as a replacement for the RS4 K04, and with a smaller compressor wheel than most of the other K04-hybrid alternatives, and a different turbine wheel than the K04, it has some potential to be a good match for my goals.

I have not looked into the stage 2 and stage 3 products as for now they aren't the flavor I'm after.

Not many data out there yet on the new generation of turbos. Plenty on the older generation. Here is the TM6 billet on my Allroad on pump gas, 750cc injectors, MAF, FMIC, DP.

Here is a 4th gear pull video:
http://vid1273.photobucket.com/albums/y407/KraftwerkTurbo/Boost%20logs/Allroad%20100-180_zpsi4lmgk3r.mp4

Spool up log:
http://i1273.photobucket.com/albums/y407/KraftwerkTurbo/Boost%20logs/TM6%202.7T%20Boost%20MAF%20spool%20up_zpsilkll84c. png

WOT log. Pump gas, need boost to taper down due to onset of timing pull. Currently prepping block with rods. Big walbro standing by for E85 conversion (run 25 psi to redline).
http://i1273.photobucket.com/albums/y407/KraftwerkTurbo/Boost%20logs/Allroad%20Boost%20MAF_zpst6thrdto.jpg

[sb_gli]

Don't forget the tune.

Thought that was assumed. I do my own tuning, so I am constantly changing it and trying to make it better. Also, that's most of the reason I didn't go "balls deep" with hardware yet. I can tune for any new hardware upgrades as I get them.

[vtraudt]

Thought that was assumed. Likely, but (think Facebook crowd) not always a sure thing. Need to check if I have the 3k-6k (my preferred comparison) FATA time (for the advancement of the Allroad, vs FATS for the advanceent of the S4).

[sakihomo]

I don't think they owe that to you.

I guess they don't owe dyno/performance metrics, in house testing evidence either then. On the surface, it appears to be just another untested box packing shop, and sharing some of the "2 years of r&d" would help dispel that.

[NOTORIOUS VR]

I guess they don't owe dyno/performance metrics, in house testing evidence either then. On the surface, it appears to be just another untested box packing shop, and sharing some of the "2 years of r&d" would help dispel that.

very, very few of these fly by night turbo manufacturers have their own flow bench for turbo chargers... most of these companies just guess at a few wheel combinations and that's it... it's not like they spec their own wheels... whatever china has available is what they're using.

[FlyboyS4]

Not many data out there yet on the new generation of turbos. Plenty on the older generation.

Yes, I'm quickly coming to the conclusion that there's no useful information being brought forth in this discussion about the Turbo Concepts product that is currently available.

[symyn]

So is this China housings with America quality control similar to how SRM is or something different?

[sakihomo]

So is this China housings with America quality control similar to how SRM is or something different?

I'd simply like to know if they actually have their own balancing machines in house. SRM does...

[sb_gli]

I'd simply like to know if they actually have their own balancing machines in house. SRM does...

Why don't you call them and talk to them?

[FlyboyS4]

So is this China housings with America quality control similar to how SRM is or something different?

I have not asked that question. Whenever I have contacted them they got back to me or answered the phone, so send them an email or call and see what they say.

[FlyboyS4]

I'm going to give these a try (http://www.myaudis4.com/2016/10/27/turbo-concepts-stage1-turbochargers/).

[tasinb5s4]

looks like SRM junk , rename it keep pushing that junk - thats my personal opinion

[FlyboyS4]

looks like SRM junk , rename it keep pushing that junk - thats my personal opinion


Yes, I'm quickly coming to the conclusion that there's no useful information being brought forth in this discussion about the Turbo Concepts product that is currently available.

[facepalm]..

[zatch_303]

What are the sizes of the 'stage 3' wheels (both turbine and compressor inducer/exducer)?

x2

[sb_gli]

I'm going to give these a try (http://www.myaudis4.com/2016/10/27/turbo-concepts-stage1-turbochargers/).

I will be interested to see what data you come up with for these turbos. I don't feel like full boost @ 2,800 rpm is a possibility, at least not in my experience. I was also told that these turbos would be full spool @ 2,800, I just have not seen it. Maybe 3,200rpm in 5th gear. I have since had a bit more time for tuning mine and have new logs as well.

Still on the stock MAF housing and it's pegged at ~320g/s by 5,500 rpm. I need to look for a cheap way to increase the housing size but keep the stock airbox and accordion if possible.

Let me know if there's anything that I can help with... tune, logs, data.. whatever

[2000s4_m]

looks like SRM junk , rename it keep pushing that junk - thats my personal opinion

I've been looking into turbo concepts and i havent found something that points in the direction of SRM, if you know something we dont it would be nice to share that. What i know so far is that TC most likely does the same as SRM, china CHRA, balance it, change wheels but we are talking different shops, not SRM renamed


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[sb_gli]

I can tell you all without a single doubt that TC does not re-brand another company's product. The source of the components are likely similar (but I don't know or care about this), but they aren't taking another company's product and putting their brand on it.

The turbos that I have on my car were built from core BW k03's. I sent him the cores from a buddy's s4 that were used. The stock hotside was milled to fit the new turbine and a new compressor housing was used. The wastegate actuators are the stock units but tightened to 8psi cracking pressure.

[FlyboyS4]

I can tell you all without a single doubt that TC does not re-brand another company's product. The source of the components are likely similar (but I don't know or care about this), but they aren't taking another company's product and putting their brand on it.

The turbos that I have on my car were built from core BW k03's. I sent him the cores from a buddy's s4 that were used. The stock hotside was milled to fit the new turbine and a new compressor housing was used. The wastegate actuators are the stock units but tightened to 8psi cracking pressure.

Silly Rabbit Motorsport sells one version of a K04-hybrid, Turbo Concepts sells four, clearly TC is not simply relabeling the SRM turbo.

[symyn]

Good deal. Thanks for taking the plunge on these Flyboy.

[vtraudt]

Why don't you call them and talk to them?

They have been balancing rebuilt and custom turbos on site since more than 20 years. They only do turbos.

[dannyn424]

did u sppol these TC turbos yet? do you prefer the stock manifolds on a k04 sized turbo?

[FlyboyS4]

did u sppol these TC turbos yet? do you prefer the stock manifolds on a k04 sized turbo?

It's running with them, but I've not driven to log yet.

I'm content with the stock exhaust manifolds being paired with the K04's/hybrids. That's also my default setup for making turbo comparisons.

[FlyboyS4]

Checking the wastegate setting.

http://www.myaudis4.com/wp-content/uploads/turbo_concepts_n75_disconnected.png

[sb_gli]

damn, you're quick. I spent almost a month on mine. :) Excited to see your logs when you turn the boost up.

[FlyboyS4]

Here's the initial look (http://www.myaudis4.com/2016/11/11/turbo-concepts-stage-1-first-logs/) at the Turbo Concepts Stage 1 turbo's.

[sb_gli]

Very nice work. Looks like your spool up is quicker than mine, and makes me think I should add more preload to my actuators.

I'd like to see a raw log if you wouldn't mind sharing. Interested in what WGDC you are running and air flow readings, etc/

Thanks again for taking one for the team.

[ruiz]

Very interested in this info as I'm still shopping turbo's. The first logs look very promising. Nice work Flyboy.

[FlyboyS4]

Here (http://www.myaudis4.com/2016/11/18/calling-it/) is some additional data for comparison.

[ruiz]

You're the man. So the K04 is still the tried and true champion in terms of k04 and hybrid comparisons? I guess now I am torn between the k04's and k24's. Or possibly Turbo Concept's stage 2.

[S4James]

my old k04/rs6 hybrids put the hurt on every single plane jane k04 car i ever ran. over 10 years worth.

k04s are great, but can be made better.

[FlyboyS4]

my old k04/rs6 hybrids put the hurt on every single plane jane k04 car i ever ran. over 10 years worth.

k04s are great, but can be made better.

What are the dimensions/specs of a k04/rs6 hybrid?

[S4James]

compressor inducer/exducer was about 10% larger, exhaust was bigger than that but ive long lost the notes ive had.

they were bog standard rs6 chras stuffed into machined k04 housings.

[FlyboyS4]

compressor inducer/exducer was about 10% larger, exhaust was bigger than that but ive long lost the notes ive had.

they were bog standard rs6 chras stuffed into machined k04 housings.

That sounds like the TTE550. It's effectively an RS6 center, slightly larger and newer compressor wheel than the RS6, with a clipped RS6 turbine wheel, all in an RS4 K04 housing.

[S4James]

no idea. mine were some sort of homebrew out of poland. Ive since moved up to k24s.

[ruiz]

Turbo Concepts is running a Black Friday sale on their 2.7t turbo's right now. You can get the stage 1 for $1195!

[FlyboyS4]

Turbo Concepts is running a Black Friday sale on their 2.7t turbo's right now. You can get the stage 1 for $1195!

Before people jump on the Stage 1 turbo's, or Turbo Concepts products in general, I think some determination needs to be made about how they are intended to be operated.

I've inquired about how much boost to operate them (Stage 1) at and have been advised to use a profile reminiscent of a strong K03 tune. If I do that I don't think there is any way I will get close to the numbers advertised for these turbo's. I may be surprised, but I don't think continuing to drop boost pressure is going to produce an upswing in whp.

When I suggested that I need to operate at a higher boost level, for comparison with BW K04's, I've been cautioned that doing so is going to push them outside of where they are most efficient, and also may be detrimental to longevity. The advertising numbers are not achievable from the advice TC is giving me about using the product, at least that's my opinion from the results I am seeing thus far.

There are some unanswered questions that need to be answered before I recommend anyone purchase these, other than for evaluation purposes.

[sb_gli]

Thanks flyboy. Good work.

[LakeTahoeQuattr]

Subd

[AudiSportB5S4]

no idea. mine were some sort of homebrew out of poland. Ive since moved up to k24s.

When you say you jumped up to K24s - do you notice a difference between your old hybrids and these that you're running now? Since you said you used to beat up on PJ K04 cars, I would be curious to hear your feedback.. I haven't heard wonderful things about K24s.. I just saw somewhere online that they quote 500whp on 91oct, which is really high, no?

[S4James]

when i get the damn car finished and spring returns ill post....

as for hearing wonderful things.... disgruntled people tend to state their issues loudly and skew the perceived reality. Some disgruntled people are worse than others for this.

[ruiz]

When you say you jumped up to K24s - do you notice a difference between your old hybrids and these that you're running now? Since you said you used to beat up on PJ K04 cars, I would be curious to hear your feedback.. I haven't heard wonderful things about K24s.. I just saw somewhere online that they quote 500whp on 91oct, which is really high, no?

Despite the truth in what S4James speaks of in regards to more people whining about things rather than praising them, I have read and seen mostly good things about the k24's. I have seen video's of k24's spanking k04's but who knows if that's driver error or maybe a difference in tune and supporting mods, I don't know. Being a prospective buyer of new turbo's I'm keeping my options open, but the k04's seem to be tried and true.

[AudiSportB5S4]

when i get the damn car finished and spring returns ill post....

as for hearing wonderful things.... disgruntled people tend to state their issues loudly and skew the perceived reality. Some disgruntled people are worse than others for this.

I hear ya. Good luck finishing up the build.


Despite the truth in what S4James speaks of in regards to more people whining about things rather than praising them, I have read and seen mostly good things about the k24's. I have seen video's of k24's spanking k04's but who knows if that's driver error or maybe a difference in tune and supporting mods, I don't know. Being a prospective buyer of new turbo's I'm keeping my options open, but the k04's seem to be tried and true.

Yeah I mean I would hope they have advantages to regular K04s. I've been keeping tallies on what comes out to the market over the past few years in terms of what I'll do next and I still think I'm a TIAL 605.2 fan if I feel like the extra money is justified. Definitely more expensive than these options, but I have seen more tried/true results with that. I also have been in and worked on tuning an RS6R car - and I like that setup too. I would imagine the K24s are similar to the RS6Rs. (note, not RS6RS - an upgraded version). By all means it would be nice to spend 1k less on a new turbo setup! :)

[S4James]

the so called RS6rs, are just chinese sourced housings, mixed bag bits like many of the others. Thats a long established fact.

[Doug@FrankenTurbo]

I just saw somewhere online that they quote 500whp on 91oct, which is really high, no?

That'd be something to see, wouldn't it?

[S4James]

Its not like there are not youtube videos out there showing exactly that.

[FlyboyS4]

Its not like there are not youtube videos out there showing exactly that.

Link to one of the videos of 500 whp on 91 octane?

[S4James]

Why bother... all you will hear is blah blah correction factor, blah blah cheating, blah blah what does it trap at.... Im not feeding the trolls.

[FlyboyS4]

Why bother... all you will hear is blah blah correction factor, blah blah cheating, blah blah what does it trap at.... Im not feeding the trolls.

So what you are saying is that while there are videos showing this, the videos are questionable? I think the point was that the claim is suspect, and apparently there is no reliable evidence supporting the claim.

[AudiTechS4]

Tuning is starting on my b6 s4 avant with k24's , ill post in my build thread where we are as we go along and get a dyno on 91 and a dyno on out new e54 flex fuel .

[FlyboyS4]

Tuning is starting on my b6 s4 avant with k24's , ill post in my build thread where we are as we go along and get a dyno on 91 and a dyno on out new e54 flex fuel .

That will be interesting to see. The bigger issue is questionable power claims without any defensible justification. To bring it back to the topic of this thread, Turbo Concepts seems to have the same issue, some optimistic claims for what the turbochargers can do, but an absence of proof.

I saw recently someone with a TC Stg3 car post a dynojet chart of the car on E85. TC claims ~600whp on E85 from those turbo's, the car made around 525whp. To me that's a large disparity between a seller's advertising and reality.

[S4James]

once you start introducing inefficiencies you start subtracting. You know damn well how those can build up, and how fast. I'm not interested in defending one product over another anymore because of the cognitive dissonance that happens every day on this site.

There is only one echo chamber that matters. The street. (or a track if you prefer)

[FlyboyS4]

There is only one echo chamber that matters. The street. (or a track if you prefer)

I disagree.


Its not like there are not youtube videos out there showing exactly that.

What was the point of making that statement in this discussion if you're unwilling to support it?

[S4James]

I'd rather put the computer down and take some doors.

[ruiz]

I saw recently someone with a TC Stg3 car post a dynojet chart of the car on E85. TC claims ~600whp on E85 from those turbo's, the car made around 525whp. To me that's a large disparity between a seller's advertising and reality.

Are there any other turbo's making around the same power or more on E85 at around the same price point?

OT, but would I need rods with K04's and E85?

[Bordom]

Are there any other turbo's making around the same power or more on E85 at around the same price point?

OT, but would I need rods with K04's and E85?
That gets into the grey area. Control torque onset and you should be good

Sent from my SM-G935W8 using Tapatalk

[ruiz]

I have a short block already torn apart for rods because I contemplated k24's with E85. If I wanted an aggressive tune on the K04's would I need rods? I'm just trying to justify having my damn block torn apart but it's looking like I may not need to build the engine with just K04's.

[LINDW4LL]

If I wanted an aggressive tune on the K04's would I need rods? I'm just trying to justify having my damn block torn apart but it's looking like I may not need to build the engine with just K04's.
Assuming you mean with E85, it's a smart choice IMO. You are into the danger zone with an aggressive tune.

[FlyboyS4]

Are there any other turbo's making around the same power or more on E85 at around the same price point?

There was a dyno chart of an F21 car making around that power level. I suspect that the SRM RS4+ or Project B5 RS4-X would perform about the same given the similar sizing of their components. The TTE550 is in a different price bracket, but has made power in the same range, again with component sizes like the others. The RS4 K04 turbine housing seems to be the limiting factor, given the different approaches taken with the wheels but similar end results.

[FlyboyS4]

K04 (dashed line) & TC Stg1 (solid lines) boost onset at 40 degF.

http://www.myaudis4.com/wp-content/uploads/bw-k04_vs_tc-stg1.png

[vtraudt]

K04 (dashed line) & TC Stg1 (solid lines) boost onset at 40 degF.


Can you upload and link to the log files for the chart?
And can you overlay a complete K04 log (to redline). While both turbos show impressive spool up and useable power (nice), the K04 is known to 'die' starting at 5k rpm and really are dead at 7200 rpm redline.

Has the tune be optimized for the TC stg1 or just carried over from the K04?
How does the N75 duty cycle look like (so see if turbo has more breathing room) and is the boost tapering 'tune induced'?

[FlyboyS4]

This is a different set of data as I didn't have a full run file of the K04's at 40F. In the chart below the K04's were logged at 54F and the TC-1 at 48F. I can email you a log file.

Could you elaborate on what 'die' means in terms that can be illustrated from vehicle data? As I set NMAX to 7000 I personally am not concerned with what happens after 7000 or 7200 rpm.

http://www.myaudis4.com/wp-content/uploads/bwk04_vs_tc-stg1.png

The ability to supply air to the engine doesn't look much different between the two to me. The TC wastegate preload is set to about 12.5 psi, the K04 around 7.5, I'd attribute the lower DC of the TC turbo to the higher preload.

I have been working on the tune to get it right for the TC turbo. I went through the business of fixing the WGDC to set the KFLDRL table, it's been a challenge as I don't think the TC wastegates are all that good evidenced by the boost variations with the wastegates fixed. I had an easier time of it dialing in the boost profile with the TTE550's. The boost taper is from the tune, I was advised to keep boost at the top end around 19 psi with the TC-1, but I'm pushing them so I can make comparisons with the K04's.

http://www.myaudis4.com/wp-content/uploads/50_60_70_kfldrl.png

[vtraudt]

This is a different set of data as I didn't have a full run file of the K04's at 40F. In the chart below the K04's were logged at 54F and the TC-1 at 48F. I can email you a log file.

Could you elaborate on what 'die' means in terms that can be illustrated from vehicle data? As I set NMAX to 7000 I personally am not concerned with what happens after 7000 or 7200 rpm.


I will see if I have some logs of plain jane RS4 (often called K04. Note: there are one hundred or so different K04 out there, so NOT a very good description). I found even the RS4/RS6 hybrid (stock compressor wheels) "die", i.e. can't hold 22 psi to redline (the latter based on memory from 1.8T, which obviously demands almost 33% more flow do to its much larger displacement (1.8/1.35=1.33).

I personally don't care either (7200 rpm performance) but it helps evaluating the flow capabilities.

I see the stg1 as a better and more capable alternative to the K04 (great spool up, and sufficient flow at higher rpm AND (likely) better efficiency (at same flow/boost) so less energy goes into HEAT rather than pressure (which may allow to get by with stock SMIC on a mild tune for example for a Tiptronic).

I have been running (don't ask) an RS4 pair on my tiptronic AR on STOCK INJECTORS (in fact ALL STOCK). Naturally, I was running out of fuel very early, and had to cap the boost at 14 psi (Daz tuned me back then). But a FUN combination. Now on 550cc, but since tiptronic, keep it mild and around 18 psi (tapering). Will look up a log.

[vtraudt]

I will see if I have some logs of plain jane RS4 (often called K04. Note: there are one hundred or so different K04 out there, so NOT a very good description). I found even the RS4/RS6 hybrid (stock compressor wheels) "die", i.e. can't hold 22 psi to redline (the latter based on memory from 1.8T, which obviously demands almost 33% more flow do to its much larger displacement (1.8/1.35=1.33).

I personally don't care either (7200 rpm performance) but it helps evaluating the flow capabilities.

I see the stg1 as a better and more capable alternative to the K04 (great spool up, and sufficient flow at higher rpm AND (likely) better efficiency (at same flow/boost) so less energy goes into HEAT rather than pressure (which may allow to get by with stock SMIC on a mild tune for example for a Tiptronic).

I have been running (don't ask) an RS4 pair on my tiptronic AR on STOCK INJECTORS (in fact ALL STOCK). Naturally, I was running out of fuel very early, and had to cap the boost at 14 psi (Daz tuned me back then). But a FUN combination. Now on 550cc, but since tiptronic, keep it mild and around 18 psi (tapering). Will look up a log.

This is an RS4 on 550cc otherwise stock on Tiptronic. Note: N75 at max (flapper closed) at 5500 rpm at 16 psi ('out of breath).

https://www.dropbox.com/s/gap3j6atg19qiai/Green%20AR%20K04%20550cc%20boost%20N75.jpg?dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/s/gap3j6atg19qiai/Green%20AR%20K04%20550cc%20boost%20N75.jpg?dl=0

[vtraudt]

The boost taper is from the tune, I was advised to keep boost at the top end around 19 psi with the TC-1, but I'm pushing them so I can make comparisons with the K04's.


I haven't plotted the actual operating conditions into the compressor map of the TINY RS4 K04 (it is really only 'bigger' when comparing it to the TINIEST of all K03 used in our 2.7T, but then again its also just a tiny 1.3 liter engine it need to feed). But we are certainly NOT running it in the meaty high efficiency zone when running 20+ psi (70-73%). Efficiency drops quickly into the 60 and 50% and the turbo turns into a hot air gun. REALLY running it outside its working range (183,000 rpm at 0.6 m3/s at 2.6 pressure ratio as an example) results in 'overspooling', not great for 'long life' as can be imagined. Hot air gun plus killer rpm = "well, if you have to".

I like to tune 2.7T (daily drivers, not trying to impress 16 year old Facebook kids at the Friday night boom-boom car meet) small turbo stage 3 cars to 20 psi midrange and tapering down as needed.
Different on 1.8T (yanking the turbo out for a quick rebuild is child's play): 22 psi (stock MAP sensor) for as long as the turbo can sustain it (on billet hybrids (like TC stage 3) trying to hold 22 to redline.

And as much timing as the ECU and the fuel allows (careful on E85 for obvious reasons).


https://www.dropbox.com/s/fgyafr31mskc17k/RS4%20compressor%20map.jpg?dl=0

[FlyboyS4]

I will see if I have some logs of plain jane RS4 (often called K04. Note: there are one hundred or so different K04 out there, so NOT a very good description). I found even the RS4/RS6 hybrid (stock compressor wheels) "die", i.e. can't hold 22 psi to redline (the latter based on memory from 1.8T, which obviously demands almost 33% more flow do to its much larger displacement (1.8/1.35=1.33).

I don't recommend you rely on your experience with the 1.8T to predict how a BW RS4 K04 will perform on the 2.7T. I haven't experienced K04's being unable to sustain 22 psi; I choose not to operate at that boost level, but the chart above showing K04's at 21.5 psi at 6500 rpm and about 75% DC is a good indication of them being able to hold 22.


I personally don't care either (7200 rpm performance) but it helps evaluating the flow capabilities.

Evaluating a product outside the range for which you intend to operate it is not what I consider to be a good use of time and effort.


I see the stg1 as a better and more capable alternative to the K04 (great spool up, and sufficient flow at higher rpm AND (likely) better efficiency (at same flow/boost) so less energy goes into HEAT rather than pressure (which may allow to get by with stock SMIC on a mild tune for example for a Tiptronic).

The stg1 may be more capable in some respects, but not *all* from what I have observed. The stock IC's are going to have a greater pressure drop so you'll be upping the boost to compensate, and consequently generating higher outlets temps.


This is an RS4 on 550cc otherwise stock on Tiptronic. Note: N75 at max (flapper closed) at 5500 rpm at 16 psi ('out of breath).

That setup has issues. I don't know what they are, but K04's on a 2.7T engine should not have any trouble making 16 psi.


I haven't plotted the actual operating conditions into the compressor map of the TINY RS4 K04 (it is really only 'bigger' when comparing it to the TINIEST of all K03 used in our 2.7T, but then again its also just a tiny 1.3 liter engine it need to feed). But we are certainly NOT running it in the meaty high efficiency zone when running 20+ psi (70-73%). Efficiency drops quickly into the 60 and 50% and the turbo turns into a hot air gun. REALLY running it outside its working range (183,000 rpm at 0.6 m3/s at 2.6 pressure ratio as an example) results in 'overspooling', not great for 'long life' as can be imagined. Hot air gun plus killer rpm = "well, if you have to".

I like to tune 2.7T (daily drivers, not trying to impress 16 year old Facebook kids at the Friday night boom-boom car meet) small turbo stage 3 cars to 20 psi midrange and tapering down as needed.
Different on 1.8T (yanking the turbo out for a quick rebuild is child's play): 22 psi (stock MAP sensor) for as long as the turbo can sustain it (on billet hybrids (like TC stage 3) trying to hold 22 to redline.

You're arguing against a decade of results. You may want to plot the actual conditions on the map to see about where things are at rather than guessing, I think you will find you're a bit off on the efficiency numbers.

From what I have recorded so far the compressor outlet temperature of the TC Stage 1 one is lower than the BW K04, but then you push that air through a highly efficient IC core and the difference is not so great. The lower temps would be a plus for the TC turbo. I have yet to assess how the turbine housing performs on the car, which would impact volumetric efficiency of the engine. Preliminary results from the flowbench showed the TC having more back pressure than the BW K04's.

The BW K04's have a long record of being a reliable turbo. The TC is a promising lower cost alternative, but there is at least one small performance trade-off, spool, and the uncertainty surrounding reliability that comes with a new product. The main concern I have with the TC Stg1 turbo is what an acceptable operating level is for long term use.

[vtraudt]

That setup has issues. I don't know what they are, but K04's on a 2.7T engine should not have any trouble making 16 psi.

This one does not have any trouble making 16 psi. It does JUST that as the log shows. But not more (as evidence by the closed wastegate from 5500 on). Fact is on that engine/car/setup, the turbo is 'out of breath' at 5500. And most K04 dyno curves show peak power at 5k to 5.5k, a strong indication that turbo is falling off the cliff.

This IS a tiptronic car, and I am not sure if the tune (load limits, torque thresholds, etc) is different from manual cars.

Since I don't have a magic glass ball to look into, I can only speak for the facts and data of THIS engine/setup (all stock except piggy pipes, injectors, turbo, tune, pump gas, Tiptronic tuned), and others I have personally dealt with. Obviously I want state that something is wrong with YOUR setup showing to MUCH pressure (I haven't even seen any data how much it FLOWS).
All RS4 2.7T I have logged where making 380-400 HP (300-320 g/sec MAF) (stock 2.7T setup, piggies, 550cc, pump gas) on conservative tunes.
I am not arguing ANY results except my own. In the contrary: I would LOVE to comparable data sets (not partial log) not just for the spool up (very important) but for the entire power band.

If only spool is important: no need to change turbo, the K03 is the world spool champion, can produce TONS of boost down low. Ever unplugged the N75 line to the compressor housing? Yipeeh! Watch that boost gauge!
Why change to a K04 at all? Well, that 95% wastegate duty cycle comes VERY early on the tiny 2.7T K03.

And yes: the RS4 turbo is a proven and reliable turbo.
(but grab a venerable K26 or K27 and experience a BUILD AUDI TOUGH turbo).

In short: do you have or can you make full range K04 vs TC stg1 log showing boost and MAF (even if at different outside temp)?

[FlyboyS4]

This one does not have any trouble making 16 psi. It does JUST that as the log shows. But not more (as evidence by the closed wastegate from 5500 on). Fact is on that engine/car/setup, the turbo is 'out of breath' at 5500. And most K04 dyno curves show peak power at 5k to 5.5k, a strong indication that turbo is falling off the cliff.

Whether the car has a problem, or those particular pair of turbo's, those results are not representative of how a K04 performs when paired with the 2.7T engine. Outfits like AWE and APR built kits that were the same for every S4 they were installed on and they performed better than the car you are showing results from.


If only spool is important: no need to change turbo, the K03 is the world spool champion, can produce TONS of boost down low. Ever unplugged the N75 line to the compressor housing? Yipeeh! Watch that boost gauge!
Why change to a K04 at all? Well, that 95% wastegate duty cycle comes VERY early on the tiny 2.7T K03.

K03's do a little better than K04's wrt boost onset, but torque differences are minimal. The airflow needs to be pretty low to get a significant (my opinion) gain from K03's, but I'm usually not pushing things when engine speed is below 2000 rpm. That's getting a bit off topic though.


In short: do you have or can you make full range K04 vs TC stg1 log showing boost and MAF (even if at different outside temp)?

Yes, I posted this above (http://www.audizine.com/forum/showthread.php/730464-Know-this-turbos?p=12052364&viewfull=1#post12052364), at least what I consider sufficiently full range, I'm not going to change the tune on my car to push the engine speed up to 7200 rpm.

[vtraudt]

This is a different set of data as I didn't have a full run file of the K04's at 40F. In the chart below the K04's were logged at 54F and the TC-1 at 48F. I can email you a log file.

http://www.myaudis4.com/wp-content/uploads/bwk04_vs_tc-stg1.png

So this chart shows a K04 at 54 and a TC-1 at 48 F? I missed that (that is what I wanted to see). I will PM to request the log files if you can share them.

[FlyboyS4]

So this chart shows a K04 at 54 and a TC-1 at 48 F? I missed that (that is what I wanted to see). I will PM to request the log files if you can share them.

Yes. Sent you the log files.

[vtraudt]

Yes. Sent you the log files.

Got them, thank you much.

Both K04 and TC stg1 around 370 g/sec (or 460 cHP), very NICE! GREAT daily setup (IMO especially well suited for a Tiptronic where a 'power cap' is needed to get SOME longevity out of the clutch packs).

[FlyboyS4]

Some additional readings, pre-turbine exhaust pressure (http://www.myaudis4.com/2016/12/07/turbo-concepts-stg1-backpressure/).

[vtraudt]

Some additional readings, pre-turbine exhaust pressure (http://www.myaudis4.com/2016/12/07/turbo-concepts-stg1-backpressure/).

Great data. Where did you measure pressure (drill tap for the sensor)?

Looks like the turbos when asked to do the SAME THING (create the same boost pressure) under same conditions (same engine/intake = flow restrictions, same pressure boost pressure; assuming similar intake temp) create the same results. As physics would expect us to believe.

I haven't seen much work/data on the effect of back pressure on transient response. But is generally known that back pressure is NOT JUST a bad thing. When developping the first 'eco boost', Audi ON PURPOSE selected not just a small turbo (fast spool to help low end torque, NO need for high end power since combined with a highly efficient 5 valve per cyl naturally aspirated engine and high compression ratio), but COMBINED it with a very restrictive manifold to created (desired) fairly high back pressure (compared to for example the K26 and K27 turbos of that time used in 911 and Audi 100/200T).

Has anybody experienced (and can describe) the effects of extreme back pressure, all the way to exhaust valve lift?

[FlyboyS4]

Pressure is measured at the EGT port.

In the case I have shown I don't believe higher exhaust gas pressure prior to the turbine housing is beneficial. It's not going to help engine VE and there is essentially more work being done to generate the same pressure output from the compressor wheel. I haven't taken the time to look at some of the other temperature and pressure readings I've made to try and estimate the turbine efficiency of the two. My guess is the BW K04 will prove to be a more efficient part in this particular instance.

On the other hand the readings I've taken of pre and post compressor temperatures appear to shown the TC compressor wheel having better efficiency at these operating conditions.

[LakeTahoeQuattr]

I was subd because I was hoping for some positive outlook data on the Stg 2 or Stg3 turbos. At this point i feel more comfortable sticking with my K04s. And for the record my car holds 20psi all day at 4,500 feet. I have never seen a boost taper. My IATs never go over 20DegF deltas with WMI.

I was really hoping for a 500WHP turbo that would spool under 3k. Maybe VGT is the only way... God I would be so happy if I could just E85 my car, but they dont sell that crap here in northern NV.

[vtraudt]

I was really hoping for a 500WHP turbo that would spool under 3k.

We all do.
But there is that little thing called physics that gets in the way.
Gravity is a bitch. So is inertia.

[LakeTahoeQuattr]

We all do.
But there is that little thing called physics that gets in the way.
Gravity is a bitch. So is inertia.

No kidding. But I think a fundamental fact is that the 2.67t is a small engine. Just the torque difference from a lobed out 3.0t will spool the living hell out of some of these large scrollers much much faster. But again, I have small interest in building a 3.0 stroker.

I think the torque difference from running e85 would be substantial enough to get some of these larger turbos spinning sooner.

[vtraudt]

No kidding. But I think a fundamental fact is that the 2.67t is a small engine. Just the torque difference from a lobed out 3.0t will spool the living hell out of some of these large scrollers much much faster. But again, I have small interest in building a 3.0 stroker.

I think the torque difference from running e85 would be substantial enough to get some of these larger turbos spinning sooner.

More displacement = more exhaust volume = more 'power' into the turbine = faster spool. And it is a very tiny 1.35 liter engine. The 3.0 (1.5) adds 10% exhaust volume. Compared for example to the 1.8T (plus 33%) or the 2.1 (RS6) (plus 55% exhaust volume).

I am NOT sure how E85 effects spool though.

Generally: E85 uses the same amount of air (for the same boost) and "what goes in, comes out". The only reason E85 could produce more air volume (at same boost) would be if it produces hotter exhaust gases (which have a larger volume at the same mass).

Playing with timing (that is what E85 allows to do aside from potential for running higher boost) on a small scale (from not so much to getting timing pull) on pump gas did net a few rpm, but not a lot; certainly not enough to bring a 5000 rpm bruiser big turbo to spool now at 4k or even 3k. Shaving a hundred RPM off: sure.

[LakeTahoeQuattr]

Trust me I am not the turbo expert by any means. I just figured that at the low end on e85, the engine will be running in NA / low boost mode until it reaches spool. If there is more power down below that would have to mean there is more exhaust gas right?

W/ e85 you can increase the low rpm torque which would require more air and fuel thus more exhaust as well right? Yes not 1k rpm difference but couldn't you expect atleast 100-300 quicker?

[FlyboyS4]

I was really hoping for a 500WHP turbo that would spool under 3k. Maybe VGT is the only way... God I would be so happy if I could just E85 my car, but they dont sell that crap here in northern NV.

I'm disappointed with the claims that were made for the products versus the way they are panning out. I think they'll be a worthwhile option to consider, but I don't see them breaking any new ground in terms of performance.

[LakeTahoeQuattr]

Yea I have been emailing with a person at TC for a couple of weeks and he states that on a built engine the power levels would be (Stage 3 turbos):

"We're predicting that a well-tuned fully-built set up with our improved turbines should get right up to 500whp on pump gas, maybe not crack it but get really close. Torque should climb over 500 foot pounds though."

"We're finding our stage3 is reaching full boost on built motors around 2800 with excellent torque response, we have the Rs6 housings but don't like selling them because it makes the car too laggy."

I am not too sure his definition of a built engine but these are the values he is pushing on me. I would really have to see this in real life before I pull the trigger on a set of turbos for 1800. I feel more comfortable going with JHM's chinese RS6-Rs turbos just because I know where JHM is. This arbitrary value of 2800 rpm to get full boost can not be the same across the board for all three turbos they sell. Even look at their graph of the stage 3 turbo, it is only starting to spool at 2800 and looks like full at 4k sort of like a standard rs6 housing.

And yes, that dyno plot they have posted online for their stage 3 turbo is with e85. They informed me that it is difficult to get data back from customers who bought the turbos for real time data as they do not have a built in house 2.7t.

[FlyboyS4]

I think their prediction of 500whp on pump gas will not be realized. The thing with the full boost statement is where you consider *full* boost occurring, I believe they consider full boost something below 20 psi, which is not going to get a car anywhere near 500whp.

With the use of the k04 turbine housing I see their products being capped like the Frankenturbo and SRM k04-hybrid products. Achieving 500whp is something I would aim for with an RS6-hybrid or TiAL turbo.

[Doug@FrankenTurbo]

As always, interesting research Jeff.

dh

[LakeTahoeQuattr]

Making an observation from TC website. They state the following flow rates and WHP on 93:

St1: 28lb/min = 380wheel
St2: 32b/min = 425wheel
St3: 38lb/min = 500 wheel

Other snails:

gt2560 = 35lb/min

RS6 = 31-32lb/min "claim 500wheel on 93"
SRM = 31-32lb/min "claim 500wheel on 93"

Tial 605: 38lbs/min ""claim 500 wheel on 93"
Tial 770: 47lb/min

Maybe I should not be making comparisons based off flow rates, but for a general idea. I see a discrepancy between values. While the 605 holds strong at making 500wheel, the k24 or rs6-r also claims 500wheel with remarkably different flow rates...

These claimed flow rates are at redline I assume? I guess a comparison between the TC2 vs SRM k24 vs JHM RS6-RS. Maybe the TC wheel HP values are more realistic and real world less exaggerated numbers? The TC3 seems to be in a larger category correct. What am I overlooking here?

Here (http://www.audizine.com/forum/showthread.php/471104-Up-to-date-turbo-comparison-thread)is another thread with similar flow rates from garretts

[vtraudt]

Maybe I should not be making comparisons based off flow rates, but for a general idea. I see a discrepancy between values. While the 605 holds strong at making 500wheel, the k24 or rs6-r also claims 500wheel with remarkably different flow rates...

These claimed flow rates are at redline I assume?

I guess a comparison between the TC2 vs SRM k24 vs JHM RS6-RS. The TC3 seems to be in a larger category correct. What am I overlooking here?

First: a turbo does not make horsepower. Nor does intercooler, etc (always find it funny when I read an intercooler is rated at 500 HP for example. Put it in the back seat of a Hellcat, and it 'makes' 735 HP). Turbo can compress and flow air. So if anything, there is compressor map for the compressor wheel of a turbo. Off which certain flow rates can be deducted. The standard or rule of thumb as described by Corky Bell and Jeff Hartman still applies today: 10 HP per lb/min.

Second: the above range (9.5-10.5 HP) shifts to higher specific power extracted per lb of air flow per minute with modern higher efficiency engine, and use of high octane fuel. So a turbo may have the POTENTIAL for supporting more HP than could be deducted from the flow of its compressor wheel map. Again: a K03 turbo strapped to a Hellcat engine make 735 HP. So if I where to market my K03 turbo, I could legitimately claim my K03 has the POTENTIAL to make 735 HP (or whatever number I can dream up).

3rd: If you want to predict how much power a certain turbo can typically support for one specific configuration, it is best to collect available data for THAT specific application. Since hardly never all information is available in sufficient statistical quantity, it provides at least a reasonable range of the peak HP (if that is what you are after) for that application. Note that fuel type (octane), timing advance, RPM and method of measurement (think "I can show you any number you want Interia Dyno") have a substantial impact on the cited HP number.

[FlyboyS4]

First: a turbo does not make horsepower. Nor does intercooler, etc (always find it funny when I read an intercooler is rated at 500 HP for example. Put it in the back seat of a Hellcat, and it 'makes' 735 HP). Turbo can compress and flow air. So if anything, there is compressor map for the compressor wheel of a turbo. Off which certain flow rates can be deducted. The standard or rule of thumb as described by Corky Bell and Jeff Hartman still applies today: 10 HP per lb/min.

Second: the above range (9.5-10.5 HP) shifts to higher specific power extracted per lb of air flow per minute with modern higher efficiency engine, and use of high octane fuel. So a turbo may have the POTENTIAL for supporting more HP than could be deducted from the flow of its compressor wheel map. Again: a K03 turbo strapped to a Hellcat engine make 735 HP. So if I where to market my K03 turbo, I could legitimately claim my K03 has the POTENTIAL to make 735 HP (or whatever number I can dream up).

3rd: If you want to predict how much power a certain turbo can typically support for one specific configuration, it is best to collect available data for THAT specific application. Since hardly never all information is available in sufficient statistical quantity, it provides at least a reasonable range of the peak HP (if that is what you are after) for that application. Note that fuel type (octane), timing advance, RPM and method of measurement (think "I can show you any number you want Interia Dyno") have a substantial impact on the cited HP number.

In summary, the WHP numbers attributed to the turbo's are a WAG.

[vtraudt]

In summary, the WHP numbers attributed to the turbo's are a WAG.
Yup. Only my '1000 HP spark plug' is legit. But I am currently in negotiations with a big diesel locomotive guy to certify my turbo 'to be good for 1000 HP' also: If mounted on his locomotive making 6000 HP, the turbo 'is good for 1000 HP', certified!

[LakeTahoeQuattr]

OK the input is appreciated. All I am seeing is this:

RS6 and SRM turbos flow 32lb/min where as the TC3 reports 38lb/min so isn't the flow per dollar greatest with the tc3 haha?

Or is there absolutely no relation between them all, is what I am hearing...

To me it appears the tc2 is a rs6 equivalent and the tc3 is a bit larger. Am I wrong to assume this?

[FlyboyS4]

OK the input is appreciated. All I am seeing is this:

RS6 and SRM turbos flow 32lb/min where as the TC3 reports 38lb/min so isn't the flow per dollar greatest with the tc3 haha?

Or is there absolutely no relation between them all, is what I am hearing...

To me it appears the tc2 is a rs6 equivalent and the tc3 is a bit larger. Am I wrong to assume this?

TC typically is going to be using the RS4/K04 hotside, not RS6/K04, you get less backpressure with the RS6/K04 hotside (http://www.myaudis4.com/2017/01/12/rs6-turbocharger-flowbench-test/).

[LakeTahoeQuattr]

TC typically is going to be using the RS4/K04 hotside, not RS6/K04, you get less backpressure with the RS6/K04 hotside (http://www.myaudis4.com/2017/01/12/rs6-turbocharger-flowbench-test/).

Very well, I should have read a little more closely. It appears that they offer an rs6 hotside on the TC3 as an option

So is it not impressive to see 500wheel with a k04 sized hot side? These are numbers we usually see with rs6 sized right?

[FlyboyS4]

Yup. Only my '1000 HP spark plug' is legit. But I am currently in negotiations with a big diesel locomotive guy to certify my turbo 'to be good for 1000 HP' also: If mounted on his locomotive making 6000 HP, the turbo 'is good for 1000 HP', certified!

That's an interesting way to look at product claims. I'll be mindful of this when you talk about what Kraftwerkturbo products are capable of.

[vtraudt]

TC typically is going to be using the RS4/K04 hotside, not RS6/K04, you get less backpressure with the RS6/K04 hotside (http://www.myaudis4.com/2017/01/12/rs6-turbocharger-flowbench-test/). Haven't seen a measurement on RS4 vs RS6 hot side back pressure. Good measurements on various (RS4?) based turbos is out there (just recently). Extreme backpressure can cause issues. On the other hand, backpressure helps to make the turbo react quicker. Too big (intercooler, pipes, exhaust manifold, turbine, etc) can have negative effects (slower spool up, turbo lag, slow transition). The OEM RS6 compressor is quite small, not in the same league as the SRM or TC3. The TC3 is the biggest billet compressor I have seen on a K04 framed turbo. I will put them on my AR in spring, and probably on my TT225. Not sure if I have logs/dyno from TC3 from actual users; would need to look.

[FlyboyS4]

The OEM RS6 compressor is quite small, not in the same league as the SRM or TC3. The TC3 is the biggest billet compressor I have seen on a K04 framed turbo. I will put them on my AR in spring, and probably on my TT225. Not sure if I have logs/dyno from TC3 from actual users; would need to look.

The compressor wheel in the RS6/K04 is on par with the average K04-hybrid, which begs the question of why a RS6/K04 equipped car develops more power.

The TC3 results I've seen are equivalent to other K04-hybrids, what size is the TC3 compressor wheel?

[c4andmore]

Haven't seen a measurement on RS4 vs RS6 hot side back pressure. Good measurements on various (RS4?) based turbos is out there (just recently). Extreme backpressure can cause issues. On the other hand, backpressure helps to make the turbo react quicker. Too big (intercooler, pipes, exhaust manifold, turbine, etc) can have negative effects (slower spool up, turbo lag, slow transition). The OEM RS6 compressor is quite small, not in the same league as the SRM or TC3. The TC3 is the biggest billet compressor I have seen on a K04 framed turbo. I will put them on my AR in spring, and probably on my TT225. Not sure if I have logs/dyno from TC3 from actual users; would need to look.

Just to clarify back pressure in the turbine housing doesn't make the turbo respond faster, gas velocity and kinetic energy makes the turbo spool faster. Back pressure in the turbine housing (not the exhaust system), is a by product of sizing the turbo housing for the application. As noted in another thread turbo makers recommend against peak exhaust port pressures that are >10+ PSI higher than the boost pressure as the exhaust back pressure causes a plateau or significant drop in peak power depending on the camshaft valve overlap duration. The art of turbo tuning is creating a turbo compressor and turbine housing combination that delivers maximum torque over the desired operating RPM range.

[sakihomo]

Just to clarify back pressure in the turbine housing doesn't make the turbo respond faster, gas velocity and kinetic energy makes the turbo spool faster. Back pressure in the turbine housing (not the exhaust system), is a by product of sizing the turbo housing for the application. As noted in another thread turbo makers recommend against peak exhaust port pressures that are >10+ PSI higher than the boost pressure as the exhaust back pressure causes a plateau or significant drop in peak power depending on the camshaft valve overlap duration. The art of turbo tuning is creating a turbo compressor and turbine housing combination that delivers maximum torque over the desired operating RPM range.

Can you quote said turbo manufacturers?

[Steve Bassen]

Any more feedback on Turbo Concepts yet? One of my F- That Guy RS6 hybrids is burning oil like crazy once it warms up, so I'm likely just going to be throwing them in the trash and getting a set from TC... just not sure what model, yet.

[Bordom]

Any more feedback on Turbo Concepts yet? One of my F- That Guy RS6 hybrids is burning oil like crazy once it warms up, so I'm likely just going to be throwing them in the trash and getting a set from TC... just not sure what model, yet.
If you're going to throw then out, I'll pay for shipping to me in Toronto

Sent from my SM-G935W8 using Tapatalk

[vtraudt]

Just to clarify back pressure in the turbine housing doesn't make the turbo respond faster, gas velocity and kinetic energy makes the turbo spool faster. Back pressure in the turbine housing (not the exhaust system), is a by product of sizing the turbo housing for the application. As noted in another thread turbo makers recommend against peak exhaust port pressures that are >10+ PSI higher than the boost pressure as the exhaust back pressure causes a plateau or significant drop in peak power depending on the camshaft valve overlap duration. The art of turbo tuning is creating a turbo compressor and turbine housing combination that delivers maximum torque over the desired operating RPM range.

I agree with all of the above. Also heard about 'factor 2' backpressure/boost pressure.

Given the same exhaust stream (volume/time, mainly displacement time rpm dependent), a smaller hot side requires more back pressure to push the volume through (smaller cross sections). p1*v1=p2*v2 applies to some extent. Smaller cross section (same volume) results in higher speed (higher kinetic energy), which helps with responsiveness.

To use the kinetic energy of the exhaust flow more effectively, more and more (factory) turbos are now designed with twin scrolls and other measures to use the firing pulses.

[LakeTahoeQuattr]

Any more feedback on Turbo Concepts yet? One of my F- That Guy RS6 hybrids is burning oil like crazy once it warms up, so I'm likely just going to be throwing them in the trash and getting a set from TC... just not sure what model, yet.

I ordered the TC2Ts for my ar and they were delivered yesterday. Plan to put em on in the next few weeks. No hard feedback yet.

[slow ride]

I have the 7/7 blade hybrids from TC with the rs6 size turbine. Not a lot of miles yet due to checking on idle misfire issue, but no issues with the turbos. Nick is easy to get in touch with. Daz sent me his way last year.

[Steve Bassen]

I'm going to assume their big RS6 based offering is likely going to spool like SRM K24's with the huge compressor wheel? I've got my downpipes setup for RS6 hotsides already, but not sure if I want to stay with them if I do the DZX-273's just to have something that doesn't spool until after 4k... This is going in a full weight wagon daily driver, so I'm still trying to keep some decent commuting manners.

[rkern]

Steve, very interested in seeing how this goes. I have been leaning towards them as well after I spoke with Daz last year. I'm down in southern MD.

[tasinb5s4]

I'm just staying away from hybrid turbos .
i got BW ko4 car , on E85 car made 502 awhp on stock engine max power between 6200-6700 rpm at 24 psi .low 11 sec runs on full weight trap 125+mph
now I'm doing rods & 2.8cams also got my self a OEM rs 6 turbos

hybrid turbos wil make more power in mid range but as rpm goes up larger turbine wheel just becomes a restriction for exhaust gases to escape .
fastest srm k24 turbo car on e85 trapped 132 mph in 1/4 so far they claim 620 awhp
fastest OEm rs6 turbo on e85 trapped 134 mph heat soaked car made 560 awhp (Boris's s4 )
ko4=>rs6=>605/770
just hard to understand if people want dyno Numbers or fast car

[vtraudt]

I'm going to assume their big RS6 based offering is likely going to spool like SRM K24's with the huge compressor wheel? I've got my downpipes setup for RS6 hotsides already, but not sure if I want to stay with them if I do the DZX-273's just to have something that doesn't spool until after 4k... This is going in a full weight wagon daily driver, so I'm still trying to keep some decent commuting manners.

Full RS6 should move the useable powerband to the right (i.e. higher peak HP at high RPM, but less low/mid range power). 1.35 liter per turbo is not much, compared to the 2.1 liters (55% more exhaust to drive the turbo).

Just depends on what your goals are (daily driver and useable power, or peak HP quartermile dragster). And the option for bolt on (no need for RS6 flanges) for those just starting to determine which way to go.

Keep us posted.

[FlyboyS4]

just hard to understand if people want dyno Numbers or fast car

It's not an either or proposition.

[vtraudt]

It's not an either or proposition.
Particularly with a definition as broad as 'fast'. To me, a measure of fast is time in 3rd gear from 2000-4000 rpm.

[FlyboyS4]

Turbo Concepts wades into the RS6 hybrid pool (http://turboconcepts.net/cars/dzx-274-b5-audi-s4-a6-allroad-2-7t-twin-turbo-stage-4-700whp-upgrade-turbocharger-set-sku-30700n/).

[S4James]

lot of big claims being made...

[FlyboyS4]

lot of big claims being made...

I expect it will fall inline with other products with similar dimensions.

[jcarruth]

I don't think they owe that to you.

So those turbos on your allroad are a k04 replacement or a rs6 replacement? based on your log full boost around 3500?

[Steve Bassen]

I have the 7/7 blade hybrids from TC with the rs6 size turbine. Not a lot of miles yet due to checking on idle misfire issue, but no issues with the turbos. Nick is easy to get in touch with. Daz sent me his way last year.

Any updates on this from you or anyone else that's running TC's? I'm probably going to buy a set of RS6 stage 3's from them in the next few weeks... Was waiting for their billet wastegate actuators to be available for the 2.7T kits (was supposed to be late summer last year), but might just grab a set of Turbosmart/Mamba/something billet actuators to throw on them.

[FlyboyS4]

Any updates on this from you or anyone else that's running TC's? I'm probably going to buy a set of RS6 stage 3's from them in the next few weeks... Was waiting for their billet wastegate actuators to be available for the 2.7T kits (was supposed to be late summer last year), but might just grab a set of Turbosmart/Mamba/something billet actuators to throw on them.

I've not put a lot of miles on the Stage 1 turbo's but they're still running and I don't have any complaints about the turbo's. I've been interested in trying the wastegates they've been working on, but it was summer of '16 they informed me they were developing them and lately it has been 'just a few more weeks and they'll be done'. Clearly the wastegates are not a priority product.

[slow ride]

Mine are still kicking and work well now after a few years, but low miles. I personally think for the boost I’m running the gates need more spring pressure as we have fought a spool up ripple in the past trying everything. I work with Blake for tuning and the car will run around 2.9-3.1 FATS stock engine and e70-75.

Mine are a 7/7 compressor and rs6 sized turbine in a rs4 sized turbine housing. Basically a 4545 by inducer/exducer measurements. If I forge the bottom end I would swap to a rs6 turbine housing and push for more as even now they seem to not be quite out of steam vs wgdc

[vtraudt]

I personally think for the boost I’m running the gates need more spring pressure as we have fought a spool up ripple in the past trying everything.
Back then, I put a 1 bar actuator on (based on Daz recommendation) since we planned (and do) run 29 psi. Good control. I would assume anything under 10 psi wont work so great. And the stock RS6 cans are VERY soft (I think they cracked open at 5 psi or so). When engine comes out (to put rods in; having nightmares seeing the boost gauge on stock rods), I plan to keep the actuator/spring.

[slow ride]

If I do the rs6 turbine housing I will upgrade the actuator or mod the stock cans. I will also run the turbine as is with no clipping. This should basically give me a rs6 turbo with a better compressor so it should be somewhere between the current turbo and the larger offerings at least in theory.

[Malkierie504]

Any updates? I'm looking at working over my tiptronic A6 looking for about ~400 whp with most things a little over built to maintain commuting reliability. This is my first foray into tc cars so patience please.

[MacDaddy]

Any updates? I'm looking at working over my tiptronic A6 looking for about ~400 whp with most things a little over built to maintain commuting reliability. This is my first foray into tc cars so patience please.

Whats your plan for the trans? Im looking at rebuilding mine, seeing if a 5hp24 torque converter fits in a 5hp19 (higher torque capacity) and crossing my fingers.
Dextron 6 is also a miracle fluid to drag racers (they get two seasons out of a trans with d6 compared to one with type-f or trick shift, etc) ive been running it for the last two years (was running dextron 3 for 8 years before that) and shift quality is excellent, you wouldnt know i have 320,000km on the trans.

[Malkierie504]

I'm hoping to go with a level 10 rebuild & solenoid body. I hadn't looked into other fluids beyond the oem called for. Given I'm liking at doing a full rebuild of the spare trans I've got, not a bad idea trying something different. I'd be interested in seeing what other tiptronic options there might be.

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[MacDaddy]

I'm hoping to go with a level 10 rebuild & solenoid body. I hadn't looked into other fluids beyond the oem called for. Given I'm liking at doing a full rebuild of the spare trans I've got, not a bad idea trying something different. I'd be interested in seeing what other tiptronic options there might be.

Sent from my SM-N900P using Tapatalk

One guy i was talking to is swapping a 5hp24 into his s4, but its larger and he wont have room for downpipes in the same location as stock, im not sure if hes going to run them low and out of the way or modify the trans tunnel.

When i eventually rebuild a trans for my s4 im going to see about modifying the A-clutch so i can add extra friction plates, running tighter tolerances for the clutch packs (requires a break in of the trans and fluid flush after a few hundred km, i did it on a land rover ZF trans before and it shifted perfect years later) and if i have the money look into adding a hydralic pressure accumulator to give the trans consistent line pressure like ZF now does in the 8 speed transmissions.

[LakeTahoeQuattr]

I ran stage 3 K04s @ 20psi on my ar with the JHM tcu tune. No problems. Swap to 6mt was worth it tho.

[LakeTahoeQuattr]

Ran it for 30k miles this way btw* car had over 200k on the stock trans at the time

[MacDaddy]

Ran it for 30k miles this way btw* car had over 200k on the stock trans at the time

How many k did you run the tiptronic till you did the 6 speed swap?

Im going for collector plates in about 4 years so im keeping it all stock except planning a stealthy stage 3 (k04’s, intercoolers, piggies, modified stock exhaust, tune) thats why im planning on staying tip.

[LakeTahoeQuattr]

Around 35K

[dannyn424]

still running on my 517 transmission stage 3 + now

[LakeTahoeQuattr]

How is that set up working out for you? I bet it's still smooth.

I was one of the lucky ones that had a good transmission it was a 2002 who knows if that's a good year or not I thought they were all bad ha

[dannyn424]

been holding up fine for a while also running tcu tune from daz at 23/24psi now

[LakeTahoeQuattr]

Very Nice. Yes the tuners tune the tip cars to bring on torque later in the rpm range to help save the trans..

[Steve Bassen]

http://turboconcepts.net/cars/audi-s4-a6-allroad-2-7t-billet-aluminum-intake-manifold/

Hmmmm

[S4James]

that looks like garbage. Specifically, made in china garbage.

[wpfahl]

Looks like it goes a camaro!


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[1thenaton1]

Hoping Flyboy can get that thing on the flowbench

[MacDaddy]

Looks like it goes a camaro!


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Dont knock the IROC camaro, that thing is a rock and roll legend, get laid legend of the 80’s 😅