REVO ECU Unlock TSB and Tool Pics

[SwankPeRFection]

Hey guys, below is some info that's in the public domain as of right now. The PDF was sent out to their dealers probably around the time the 2010's came out. Also, there's been quite a few threads where people kept bickering as to how REVO accomplished their boot loader unlock initially and why they needed a bench tool to do it as opposed to what others are doing now and maybe even REVO is doing now via OBDII port. Enjoy... it's here for the community's knowledge and nothing more.


PDF: http://www.revotechnik.com/resources/uploads/files/TSB%20ECU%20Security%20Locked%20ECUs%20Web.pdf

Technical Service Bulletin
ECU Security – Locked ECUs Vehicles Affected – MY2010 on vehicles
VW Audi Group have updated the ECU security on 2010 model year vehicles with MED17 and EDC17 ECU’s, these can not currently be remapped by re- flashing through the port. This is being referred to by various parties as the ‘MY2010 issue’, or ‘anti-tuning measure’. This is an issue that affects all remap/tuning companies.
Revo dealers have the option of bench unlock solutions for locked ECU’s.
What is this security?
This is an enhanced version of ECU security using a 1024bit RSA digital signature. This security has been incorporated in Bosch ECU’s since the launch of EDC16, but previously available ‘back doors’ have been closed off. As such this isn’t something that can be bypassed via an OBD port flash, the ECU needs to be removed from the vehicle and opened in order for a probe to be placed on the board to give access to the boot-loader. Revo software disables the digital signature check to allow Revo performance software to be installed without any problems.
Note: Other tuners that use data-area only tools are likely to have problems with all MY2010 affected cars if they attempt to flash them normally, as even putting in the data-area stock read could cause the car not to start.
The below is an overview of vehicles/ECU’s that are locked:
 All VW Polo, Skoda Fabia, Audi A1 1.4twincharger cars are SPX unlock
 Late 2011on 1.4TSI SEAT Ibiza’s are SPX unlock
 B8 Chassis 2.0TSI vehicles are SPX unlock
 B8 Chassis 2.0TDi vehicles are SPX unlock
 2010on 3.0TDI vehicles are SPX unlock
 Nearly all 2010on transverse engine’d diesel vehicles with EDC17 ECU’s
are SPX unlock
 T5.5 Transporter and Amarok 2.0TDI (single and twin turbo) are SPX
unlock
 2011on 2.5TFSI MED9 ECU’s are locked are BDM Unlock
 New type EDC17 ECU’s found in CR140 and 170 engines are SPX
unlock using C46 Boot Probe Tool
 3.0TSI S4/S5 ECU’s are locked and are SPC unlock
 3.0TSI A6 Simos 8.3/8.4 ECU’s are locked and are SPC unlock
 1.6CR PCR2 ECU’s are locked and are SPC unlock
RVOTSB_ECU Security – Locked ECU’s
Technical Service Bulletin
FAQ’s:
Is everything 2010 onwards locked?
No, the current 2.0TFSI MED9 vehicles (S3, Golf R, ED35, Leon Cupra, etc.) and A6 2.0CR vehicles are not locked.
Is it possible to have two cars with exactly same ECU ID and Software Version but one with DS and the other without?
Yes, however in that scenario you would find that the one that is locked came from the factory with that version of software and the one that isn’t locked has been updated to that ECU ID/Software version.
Can an ECU that never had the DS ON be locked via a dealer software update?
No, this isn’t something that can be done. The only way for a previously unaffected car to be locked is for a new ECU to be fitted.
Is it easy to remove the ECU?
Some ECU plugs are covered by security brackets that need to be removed in order to take the ECU out of the car. The security brackets differ between models of car and require different methods of removal, all Revo dealers are capable of removing and replacing the security brackets and where necessary new security bolts are refitted.
Is it easy to open an ECU?
Without the correct tools and process to follow it’s not easy to open an ECU, however all Revo dealers go through specific training prior to having access to any Revo unlock tool.
Does this effect factory updates?
There is no effect on factory updates by having Revo and the security ‘unlock’ on a car. However once a factory update is flashed onto the ECU the ECU will need to be removed again to have Revo software and the ‘unlock’ reinstalled.
Can all Revo dealers unlock ECU’s?
All Revo dealers have access to our unlock tools, please check with your dealer in regards to your specific vehicle ECU.
What are the Revo SPX, SPC, BDM and C46 Boot Probe referred to above?
All of the above are tools required to unlock ECU’s, your Revo dealer will use the relevant tool for the job as different vehicle ECU’s require different methods to be unlocked.
RVOTSB_ECU Security – Locked ECU’s


PICs of C46 Boot Probe:

https://scontent-a-mia.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn1/526518_580925801936623_74660108_n.jpg
https://scontent-b-mia.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-frc3/555836_580925818603288_569970308_n.jpg

[AQuattro]

Interesting. Seems their process was similar to what APR and GIAC were doing initially. Open ECU, unlock ECU with probe fixture, flash. No mention of any soldering as was alleged.

[infinkc]

All the special cables GAIC makes is pretty neat also.
http://giaceurope.com/index.php/2011-12-10-10-38-18/about-giac/9-uncategorised

[integroid]

I dont get it? Is this new news?

[SwankPeRFection]

I dont get it? Is this new news?

Shouldn't be. It's been out for a while but in some recent threads a few people kept harping on the idea that people solder shit to do the same shit that they do.

Problem is, every tuner has the three seashells but they don't tell anyone how to use them. Lol

[integroid]

Shouldn't be. It's been out for a while but in some recent threads a few people kept harping on the idea that people solder shit to do the same shit that they do.

Problem is, every tuner has the three seashells but they don't tell anyone how to use them. Lol

Hahaha....gotcha

[richib86]

Problem is, every tuner has the three seashells but they don't tell anyone how to use them. Lol

here you go!
http://www.thejay.com/wp-content/3seashells.jpg

[MrFunk]

^^hahahahahahaahah omg!

[SwankPeRFection]

Well shit! [BLAAAA, Swank you have been issued another warning for violating the AZ rules of conduct!] The Internet never ceases to amaze me! [>_<]

Well played sir... well played... However, I don't think that's how they're used. It will continue to be the great mystery of the universe. lol

[NeedQuattro]

LOL that is gold. Makes me want to rewatch demolition man...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9mFuB0gsNAA

[NWS4Guy]

The way APR (for example) does flashing now is not at all how it was done when they first started to tune the ECU, what makes you think the way any of the others operate now the way they did?

What I am saying is that there was evidence, at the time the allegations were made, that there was desoldering and soldering happening. Have REVO moved on from this? Maybe, or maybe they never did. Posting details about how APR does it now and assuming they never had to crack open the ECU and use a contraption that held the ECU tightly while metal probes were touched to the circuit board is pretty much what this amounts to.

[helix139]

The way APR (for example) does flashing now is not at all how it was done when they first started to tune the ECU, what makes you think the way any of the others operate now the way they did?

What I am saying is that there was evidence, at the time the allegations were made, that there was desoldering and soldering happening. Have REVO moved on from this? Maybe, or maybe they never did. Posting details about how APR does it now and assuming they never had to crack open the ECU and use a contraption that held the ECU tightly while metal probes were touched to the circuit board is pretty much what this amounts to.

There you go talking sense again Neal. What is your problem man!

[NWS4Guy]

There you go talking sense again Neal. What is your problem man!

I must be sick or something, sorry about that.

[Jeff@RevoUSA]

Thanks for sharing, Swank.

To add clarity here, the photo and data shown is for the latest 1767 processor / MED/EDC17 ECUs and not anything related to a B8 S4.

And since I'm here, visit your local Revo dealer and receive 15% off STaSIS Motorsport software. Use promo code: Swank15 *valid until 10/31/2013*

Let me know if you have any other questions,

[NWS4Guy]

Thanks for sharing, Swank.

To add clarity here, the photo and data shown is for the latest 1767 processor / MED/EDC17 ECUs and not anything related to a B8 S4.



Thanks for the clarification Jeff. I was hoping to get a nice retort (not from you) about how this was the device they used to tune the 2010's originally and I would be able to point out the 2012 copyright.

[AQuattro]

I would be able to point out the 2012 copyright.

Good catch but where's the copyright?

Edit: Oh I see it on the board now, I was looking at the doc.


To add clarity here, the photo and data shown is for the latest 1767 processor / MED/EDC17 ECUs and not anything related to a B8 S4.



The PDF was sent out to their dealers probably around the time the 2010's came out.

So Swank where did you get this information?

[Jeff@RevoUSA]

Thanks for the clarification Jeff.

You are welcome.

[SwankPeRFection]

Good catch but where's the copyright?

Edit: Oh I see it on the board now, I was looking at the doc.





So Swank where did you get this information?

Info came off the web. I honestly stumbled upon it doing searches for something else. This is why I said it was public domain knowledge. I really wish REVO or Stasis would just come out and say if they still need to open the ECUs or not, but according to their last info to dealers, it's no longer necessary to open them. I could be wrong, but it irks me when someone talks shit about someone else's technology like their shit don't stink and the other guys don't go above and beyond to defend themselves, regardless of what they do and how. Maybe they just didn't want to sound petty and bicker on or maybe they didn't want to discuss proprietary knowledge, but I figured if the info can be found out publicly, I'd post it so we can ALL get to the bottom of it and the truth rather than the under the table bullshit we seem to constantly be fed by all these places.

What doesn't make sense is that the PDF blatantly indicates the B8 platform as a locked ECU, but doesn't say specifically if this tool was used to unlock those or not. According to Jeff, it was for another ECU in the Audi line and perhaps one of the other tools (software or hardware) is the one used for the B8/B8.5. Either way, I saw a reference for a tool in a PDF, searched for that tool and found some pics of it. I'll see if I can dig up anything else to share with everyone, unless Jeff wants to just come off the knowledge and just share it with people. I really don't think it's all that secret. If you need to pop an ECU open to unlock it, say so. If you don't, say so. Everyone uses their own way of cracking these things to get the job done. What the end result is and how comfortable a user/client is with the process is what matters when it's all said and done. I'm a firm believer in full disclosure of a process or various processes and to let a customer make AN INFORMED decision on a service or product rather than keep knowledge from them in an effort to try and sell them on something. But hey, maybe that's just me... but it's worked out fairly well for me so far and clients I deal with are very appreciative of it. (Keep in mind my everyday job is outside elf the automotive industry, but this concept remains true for me regardless of what I'm dealing with.)

[infinkc]

this is a simos8 boot probe

http://www.chiptuningshop.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/Simos8.jpg
http://www.chiptuningshop.co.uk/accessories/cmdflash-vag-siemens-8x-probe-simos-8-3-8-4-8-5-8-6-3-0tfsi/

[Arin@APR]

in some recent threads a few people kept harping on the idea that people solder shit to do the same shit that they do.

Not everyone flashed the ECU the same way.

Here's the Revo tool. A chip was removed from the board, put in here, and then soldered back on.

Gary @ Revo denied this over and over and tried to make it appear as if I was lying by saying APR's method didn't require soldering like some other tuners.

Well, if anyone's really interested, I was telling the truth.

http://s14.postimg.org/yjwgtna9d/revo_spc.jpg

And for what it's worth, here's our old tool:

http://www.goapr.com/news/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/apr-ccd.jpg

(Note, production pieces were not clear)

[ddillenger]

That revo nonsense is just a chipreader/writer for SOIC-8 chips. That doesn't write the main flash, I can only assume it was for unlocking the ecu for writing with another tool.

APR's is a BDM that uses the BDM port on the ecu itself, and can access the flash, eeprom, and processor content.

[Arin@APR]

APR's is a BDM that uses the BDM port on the ecu itself, and can access the flash, eeprom, and processor content.

That's not correct. :-)

[saxon]

arin, since everything can be flashed through the diagnostics port now when will you come out with a flash loader device? if you check out the recent voting thread you can see its something that the majority of the community is asking for

[AQuattro]

Here's the Revo tool. A chip was removed from the board, put in here, and then soldered back on.


I was wondering what the SPC tool was. Thanks Arin.

Anyone know if this is still what they use?

[Arin@APR]

arin, since everything can be flashed through the diagnostics port now when will you come out with a flash loader device? if you check out the recent voting thread you can see its something that the majority of the community is asking for

I don't think it would be a good move. It would cut out our dealer network, which is a group of APR experts around the world. The level of support they give is more valuable than home flashing in my opinion. Also, to be frank, port flashing could easily go away with an update from the factory. It could be gone on next year's ECUs too. It would also open us up to theft should the program be easily accessible and really make it easy for others to figure out how we're flashing the ECU, which was hard work. And back on the dealer support note, bricking an ECU would be troublesome. Without the dealer network to take care of that situation, you would be left on your own.

[Bomiz]

I don't think it would be a good move. It would cut out our dealer network, which is a group of APR experts around the world. The level of support they give is more valuable than home flashing in my opinion. Also, to be frank, port flashing could easily go away with an update from the factory. It could be gone on next year's ECUs too. It would also open us up to theft should the program be easily accessible and really make it easy for others to figure out how we're flashing the ECU, which was hard work. And back on the dealer support note, bricking an ECU would be troublesome. Without the dealer network to take care of that situation, you would be left on your own.

I personally would see it somewhat like this(for me to use).

Originally flash at the APR Dealer. Somehow get the cable, and be able to flash back to stock for service and be able to flash back to your APR file.

[saxon]

I don't think it would be a good move. It would cut out our dealer network, which is a group of APR experts around the world. The level of support they give is more valuable than home flashing in my opinion. Also, to be frank, port flashing could easily go away with an update from the factory. It could be gone on next year's ECUs too. It would also open us up to theft should the program be easily accessible and really make it easy for others to figure out how we're flashing the ECU, which was hard work. And back on the dealer support note, bricking an ECU would be troublesome. Without the dealer network to take care of that situation, you would be left on your own.

You would still have your dealer network to sell the calls and also to sell flashes for those who don't want a cable. And any person who wants to steal your technology will/can do it without you putting a cable out. I think your company is thinking of your clientele from ten years ago and not current. Thank you for a response though

[westwest888]

My REVO dealer said it was a giant PITA to physically remove the ECU from the car. There were all kinds of security bolts and contraptions holding it in. I think they did have to solder something off on the bench. It's a job for sure.

[drob23]

I don't think it would be a good move. It would cut out our dealer network, which is a group of APR experts around the world. The level of support they give is more valuable than home flashing in my opinion. Also, to be frank, port flashing could easily go away with an update from the factory. It could be gone on next year's ECUs too. It would also open us up to theft should the program be easily accessible and really make it easy for others to figure out how we're flashing the ECU, which was hard work. And back on the dealer support note, bricking an ECU would be troublesome. Without the dealer network to take care of that situation, you would be left on your own.

As a potential customer, I like the idea of being able to DIY flashing back to stock and vice versa. One middle ground suggestion might be to provide a DIY tool that *only* allows you to flash back to stock. For example, assume something goes wrong to your car and you need to immediately take to the dealer for warranty work. Currently, you'd need to first take it to an APR dealer (possibly on flatbed), coordinate the flash with them (which might be on a weekend, so you're SOL) and then take it to the audi dealer. I suppose this method might this still open up your IP for theft though...

My ideal situation (i.e. I would pay more for this, maybe $400 extra) would be: DIY tool to flash ECU completely back to stock, no fee to re-flash the tune from the APR dealer.

As it is now (local SE MI dealers aren't as friendly as some others I've seen), I'd need to pay an hour of labor to go stock, and then an hour of labor to go back to the tune, just for the Audicare service (this is overly paranoid since they likely wouldn't scan the ECU, but I think people juggle with this scenario). Which turns 1 trip during work hours into 3, with the first 2 needing to be reasonably synchronized.

[helix139]

My REVO dealer said it was a giant PITA to physically remove the ECU from the car. There were all kinds of security bolts and contraptions holding it in. I think they did have to solder something off on the bench. It's a job for sure.

Thank you captain obvious

[AQuattro]

any person who wants to steal your technology will/can do it without you putting a cable out.

The increased risk of theft is obvious. There are a lot of people who would have no problem legally buying hardware and having it reverse engineered. There are fewer people who would break into an APR dealer and steal the hardware to accomplish the same thing. It's called deterrence.

[drob23]

Here's a question for people familiar with tuning other platforms. If I have an Evo or STI, and buy one of these cobb tuning tools, can I flash a tune onto another persons car, similar to VAGCOM? So the only incentive to personally own the hardware is to easily swap between maps for different conditions or octane levels? Or are the maps somehow tied to your ECU serial number?

[Jeff@RevoUSA]

Not everyone flashed the ECU the same way.

Here's the Revo tool. A chip was removed from the board, put in here, and then soldered back on.

Gary @ Revo denied this over and over and tried to make it appear as if I was lying by saying APR's method didn't require soldering like some other tuners.

Well, if anyone's really interested, I was telling the truth.

http://s14.postimg.org/yjwgtna9d/revo_spc.jpg

And for what it's worth, here's our old tool:

http://www.goapr.com/news/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/apr-ccd.jpg

(Note, production pieces were not clear)


Arin said it best, "Not everyone flashed the ECU the same way".

I have no problem admitting, yes, the old flashing method required the ECU to be removed, opened, and soldered. If you walked into a REVO dealer today, they would flash your 3.0l through the port (no removal).

[Jeff@RevoUSA]

Here's a question for people familiar with tuning other platforms. If I have an Evo or STI, and buy one of these cobb tuning tools, can I flash a tune onto another persons car, similar to VAGCOM? So the only incentive to personally own the hardware is to easily swap between maps for different conditions or octane levels? Or are the maps somehow tied to your ECU serial number?

No, the VIN is stored and checked each time you adjust the tune.

[SwankPeRFection]

The increased risk of theft is obvious. There are a lot of people who would have no problem legally buying hardware and having it reverse engineered. There are fewer people who would break into an APR dealer and steal the hardware to accomplish the same thing. It's called deterrence.

Sometimes a company has to grow out of their antiquated ways. There are plenty of other tuning companies out there who used products like everyone wants out here and they're still in business. Sooner or later APR and GIAC will need to come off their high horses with the business model they've built. I hate to say it, but if they're not going to change things, I hope Audi locks that damn ECU so tight a frog would be envious... I say this out of spite obviously because we are all losing out of something that could make them more money and help us be safer with work being done at a dealer and safer in knowing that we're in control of the flashing situation should an emergency arise with our cars. What happens if you're on vacation and something happens to your car and you have to take it to an Audi dealer around wherever you may be... chances are great APR or GIAC won't have a dealer around that area. In fact, I'd wager to bet big money that could happen to someone and they'd be fucked. Either these companies need to change their technology or they need to step up the game and provide a 3rd party warranty program for everyone. I think we pay enough for their products that maybe they should do that instead of building new warehouses and shops! Something's gotta give and I'm glad the community is finally slowly starting to take the blinders off. Sooner or later more and more people will see the value of a change like this.

[SwankPeRFection]

Here's a question for people familiar with tuning other platforms. If I have an Evo or STI, and buy one of these cobb tuning tools, can I flash a tune onto another persons car, similar to VAGCOM? So the only incentive to personally own the hardware is to easily swap between maps for different conditions or octane levels? Or are the maps somehow tied to your ECU serial number?

The Cobb AP is designed to marry itself to the car in question so that it can only flash one car at a time. However, you can unmarry it from the car and then marry it to another car and the whole process would start all over again. That of course is the legit "by the book" way to use that technology.

However, with free flashing tools available to those markets, you can marry the AP to a car, then image that ECU with the free software tools/cable and then unmarry the AP. Then you blow the image back onto the car and you've got your AP tune back. This frees the AP to be used somewhere else. Of course this is a shitty thing to do and honestly it's not even necessary if all you're looking for is a Cobb OTS Stage whatever tune for your car. You could just as easily marry the AP, then pull the image off and note all the values in the new tune. Then unmarry the AP and then take a stock Subaru map, change the values around to match the Cobb OTS tune and blow it back onto the ECU. This is still cheating a bit because you've now taken the Cobb tune values and reused them, but you wouldn't be cheating the licensing setup of the AP. Over time, even this became something that people didn't bother with anymore because as they saw more and more OTS maps, they realized that there are quite similar to each other in terms of the tune. They were never identical, but pretty close in terms of values. Over time, people evolved the maps to their own tune and it all became a moot point. And that's the thing here... initially there might be an issue, but as time passes, less and less people would bother with stealing the code or the tune values.

Think of it this way. If everyone left their houses wide open there's probably going to be some theft initially, but that would die off over time because there's be no point to it anymore. You steal something, I steal it back. Human nature would get bored of the stupid tug of war and evolution of the thought that stealing was beneficial to you would subside. Same thing would happen here because it's how it works. Of course, no one is sure of how long that time would be between inception and the final evolution. I can only say that it will happen like that.

[SwankPeRFection]

Arin said it best, "Not everyone flashed the ECU the same way".

I have no problem admitting, yes, the old flashing method required the ECU to be removed, opened, and soldered. If you walked into a REVO dealer today, they would flash your 3.0l through the port (no removal).

Finally, someone comes out and says it. There you go everyone.... that was old shit and I'd like to point out that at one time early on, not even APR could ODBII port flash these things, so it's not like their shit never stunk too.

I'm not trying to defend anyone, I'm just trying to get you guys to see the perspective here. The competition you see with the bickering threads is nothing more than sales tactics to try and gain more business. Everyone is allowed to do it to make themselves seem better than the other guy, but everyone should remember that at one point in time, those same limitations were governing them too.

[PsYkHoTiK]

My REVO dealer said it was a giant PITA to physically remove the ECU from the car. There were all kinds of security bolts and contraptions holding it in. I think they did have to solder something off on the bench. It's a job for sure.

It's really not that bad. Sheer bolts on the 6MT sucks but other than that, it's fairly easy. I've done it a few times.

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk

[AQuattro]

Sometimes a company has to grow out of their antiquated ways.......Sooner or later more and more people will see the value of a change like this.

I agree that a flash at home option would be nice and probably give a market advantage if done right. All I was saying is the "if someone wants to do it, they'll do it" argument is not valid. There's no arguing there's an increased risk of IP theft that comes with offering DIY flashing and this risk needs to be weighed against the advantages. Its a pretty straight forward business decision.

[infinkc]

im curious now if i open my stasis ecu will i see an 8 pin eeprom that had been removed. im also wondering if this same 8 pin chip contains the vin info so you can simply clone 2 ecus like on the older ME7 ecus.

[richib86]

It's really not that bad. Sheer bolts on the 6MT sucks but other than that, it's fairly easy. I've done it a few times.

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk

even with the sheer bolts it comes out in only a few minutes

[SwankPeRFection]

I agree that a flash at home option would be nice and probably give a market advantage if done right. All I was saying is the "if someone wants to do it, they'll do it" argument is not valid. There's no arguing there's an increased risk of IP theft that comes with offering DIY flashing and this risk needs to be weighed against the advantages. Its a pretty straight forward business decision.

There is a way to do it and maintain fairly tight security. They build a flashing device that has WIFI and VPN capabilities internally. They secure the OS and all the code on that box with encryption to keep local access to it from happening. Then, you build a backend server system that's accessible via the web by the home user through individual accounts on high encryption SSL and the process is as follows.

The flashing box they are sold/issued is serialized/licensed and bound to their online ID they use for the server access. They turn on the flashing box and it connects via WIFI to the home user's home WIFI network (this would be configurable via software and a USB cable to the box earlier in the process when they receive the box, activate it, and create their user ID and account into with the tuning company) and once that base Internet connection is up, the box nails up a secure VPN tunnel for further instructional use. Once that's up, the user will see on the online server system that their flashing box has connected to their account and server backend and is ready to receive further instructions. At this point the user picks what map they want to flash down to the car and the server backend bundles said map, signs it with a specific security token and sends it out to the remote flashing box. The box then receives that file, unlocks it since it would know what the token is from it's own security algorithm onboard and starts the flash process through the OBDII port. When it's all done, it signals back to the server backend that it's done and the user can then finish their process.

Now, all you have to make sure you have in place with a system like this is a locked down software system on the flashing box that's hard to crack, a secure connection between the box and Internet server that stops working at the first sign of a man-in-the-middle attack and of course some kind of security measure on the OBDII cable if you want to go that far to keep people from snooping on that side of the box. I don't know what measure would be... maybe resistance or voltage based since tapping in could slightly change these things. But again, I'm just throwing out an idea here... I'm good with concepts, all the underlying legwork would be handled by the guy who actually write the code and design things. I think it can be a pretty secure system in the long run, but I'm happy to hear people poke holes in the concept if they see any. Maybe we can all help these companies spark an idea for something we can all benefit from.

[NWS4Guy]

Finally, someone comes out and says it. There you go everyone.... that was old shit and I'd like to point out that at one time early on, not even APR could ODBII port flash these things, so it's not like their shit never stunk too.

I'm not trying to defend anyone, I'm just trying to get you guys to see the perspective here. The competition you see with the bickering threads is nothing more than sales tactics to try and gain more business. Everyone is allowed to do it to make themselves seem better than the other guy, but everyone should remember that at one point in time, those same limitations were governing them too.

What APR did was much less invasive than desoldering and soldering. It did require physical ECU removal and opening to allow contact points on the board to be touched, not exactly foolproof, but compared to heating up critical components (twice!) and replacing the component with very finite amount of room for error, it's much safer. This isn't about saying one player or the other's "shit didn't stink" this is about accepting risks and mitigating those risks to the customer as best you can. To be honest, I am shocked you believed Jeff and even allowed that APR's method was better initially. Kudos and a huge step forward for you!


even with the sheer bolts it comes out in only a few minutes

Yes, I have personally pulled mine numerous times. It takes about 5 minutes, and is very time consuming and a HUGE pain in the ass [rolleyes]

[SwankPeRFection]

What APR did was much less invasive than desoldering and soldering. It did require physical ECU removal and opening to allow contact points on the board to be touched, not exactly foolproof, but compared to heating up critical components (twice!) and replacing the component with very finite amount of room for error, it's much safer. This isn't about saying one player or the other's "shit didn't stink" this is about accepting risks and mitigating those risks to the customer as best you can. To be honest, I am shocked you believed Jeff and even allowed that APR's method was better initially. Kudos and a huge step forward for you!


Well, let's not forget there was a time when APR would desolder the main eprom chip off the board, solder on a socket in its place and then the process would be unplug eprom chip off board, flash it in a flasher and put it back in the new socket. I know it was many platforms ago, but it did happen... that's how the whole "Chipped" terminology even came to be known instead of people using the proper "Flash" terminology.

[infinkc]

Yea would be cool if they brought back the EMCS programming to the simos ecus
http://www.goapr.com/support/emcs_version_upgrade.html

[AQuattro]

There is a way to do it and maintain fairly tight security..... .

Sounds fancy. The problem I see is that whatever comes out of the black box has to be in a language the ECU can understand. This is probably a relatively standard protocol. Someone that knows what they''re doing will be able to monitor this communication and see how the process works and probably recreate it. I think in the end it's going to take a company like Cobb or someone else to enter the market with a DIY product for APR or GIAC to seriously consider offering something similar.

[SwankPeRFection]

Sounds fancy. The problem I see is that whatever comes out of the black box has to be in a language the ECU can understand. This is probably a relatively standard protocol. Someone that knows what they''re doing will be able to monitor this communication and see how the process works and probably recreate it. I think in the end it's going to take a company like Cobb or someone else to enter the market with a DIY product for APR or GIAC to seriously consider offering something similar.

I discussed this aspect of the security layer in the last part of my post. It could be possible to secure it or not depending on design. One thing they could do is not make the box connect via a cable. The OBDII plug could be part of the flasher box and have a interrupt switch on the plug. People would then need to back-probe the back of the OBDII port on the car. Either way, it's all about making things too difficult to be worth it in the end, since nothing is fully secure. If people wanted to leak out their tech, it would have happened already from one of their dealers... nobody resists the opportunity to leak something if the kickbacks are enough. It's probably not happened because each of the 3 tuners have the same capabilities now, and even with new advancements, all 3 of them end up at the same endpoint within a few months of each other. There's just no competition, so they concentrate on their tunes rather than ripping each other off on the flashing tech.

Hell, if they wanted to, they could even require the ECU be removed from the car to plug into the flashing box directly. There are ways to make things difficult for the rippers is all I'm saying...

[Arin@APR]

As a potential customer, I like the idea of being able to DIY flashing back to stock and vice versa.

Trust me. I get it. The idea, the concept, all of that is pretty cool and neat.

I would like to bring up two more points:

1. Tech support - Oh boy, I can only imagine how much tech support would be involved with such a device!

2. It could stop working tomorrow - As I said earlier, Audi could close the doors and the device would be worthless. I don't think that would go over well with our customer base if they got an update and could no longer use the hardware. Hardware is also a big investment. It takes time and money to create and if it could all be gone tomorrow (since that's the direction everythings always heading). It could be a big loss on everyones end (both company and customer) and I wouldn't want to be on the forefront of it all dealing with the angry mobs wanting refunds for their now worthless device.

Again, like I said, I get it. I totally get the idea and in some forms, I like it.

From a customers outside perspective, it seems simple.

From where I sit, I see all the caveats to the devices ultimate success.


Well, let's not forget there was a time when APR would desolder the main eprom chip off the board, solder on a socket in its place and then the process would be unplug eprom chip off board, flash it in a flasher and put it back in the new socket. I know it was many platforms ago, but it did happen... that's how the whole "Chipped" terminology even came to be known instead of people using the proper "Flash" terminology.

Swank,

I hope we never have to go back to that time, and so does everyone else. Some people were soldering masters. Others... not so much!

However, you may be missing the point. Here was the point to all those arguments:

I advertised our flash as not requiring any soldering as I saw this as a clear and cut advantage to our flashing method.

Revo's former GM would not admit to soldering at all, even when directly asked by customers.

Many people felt it was dishonest to not disclose the fact the ECU had to not only be opened, but a Revo dealer would actually be responsible for desoldering a chip and resoldering it to the board, potentially damaging it in the process.

[saxon]

Trust me. I get it. The idea, the concept, all of that is pretty cool and neat.

I would like to bring up two more points:

1. Tech support - Oh boy, I can only imagine how much tech support would be involved with such a device!

2. It could stop working tomorrow - As I said earlier, Audi could close the doors and the device would be worthless. I don't think that would go over well with our customer base if they got an update and could no longer use the hardware. Hardware is also a big investment. It takes time and money to create and if it could all be gone tomorrow (since that's the direction everythings always heading). It could be a big loss on everyones end (both company and customer) and I wouldn't want to be on the forefront of it all dealing with the angry mobs wanting refunds for their now worthless device.

Again, like I said, I get it. I totally get the idea and in some forms, I like it.

From a customers outside perspective, it seems simple.

From where I sit, I see all the caveats to the devices ultimate success.





1) absolutely you would need tech support, through a well managed tech guide/forum/dealers i dont see any problems. KISS keep it simple and easy to use and the problems will be few

2)Its funny you say this yet there are plenty of manufactures who have these tools out in hands of users without problems for BMW, Mitsubishi, honda etc.... not to mention the GTR (ive heard tuners compare the factory ecu to motek if not better)

3) i dont think you understand how a device like this could move a company into direct market share. do a vin lock on it and marry it to a car. if unmarried sell another user license to the next person . this would allow a resale value (huge benefit compared to current), it would also allow that device into the hand of those who couldnt justify $2,000 for a tune but can justify $800 and $300 for a license. imagine that device selling three times over 4-6 years and you have more money. not only that but it takes away from the "cheaper" tuners out there because at that price point you would be in direct competition and with the name of the company most would be foolish to choose another brand.

if i could buy a product and use it for a year or two (my typical lifecycle) and then resell it i would be much more likely to purchase that product than one that has no value when i sell the car.

i have a credit card ready for the first company who offers this product at a reasonable cost.

[Arin@APR]

Like I said, from the outside, all seems great. From the inside, not so much. I appreciate the input nonetheless.

[bobsaver]

Thanks for sharing, Swank.

To add clarity here, the photo and data shown is for the latest 1767 processor / MED/EDC17 ECUs and not anything related to a B8 S4.

And since I'm here, visit your local Revo dealer and receive 15% off STaSIS Motorsport software. Use promo code: Swank15 *valid until 10/31/2013*

Let me know if you have any other questions,

Hi Jeff, does that discount code work here in Finland for a Revo map for my Golf 6 TDI 4Motion 1.6 CR??

Great reading all this, very interesting indeed.

[tico]

Trust me. I get it. The idea, the concept, all of that is pretty cool and neat.

I would like to bring up two more points:

1. Tech support - Oh boy, I can only imagine how much tech support would be involved with such a device!


From a customers outside perspective, it seems simple.

From where I sit, I see all the caveats to the devices ultimate success.



Arin, your number 1 issue is just another revenue generator. Convert that issue into a money machine.

I bought my access port through a Cobb dealer with one year of support and custom tuning. Services is where the money is. I am not even sure i will use the support i bought or the custom tuning.

[Arin@APR]

Arin, your number 1 issue is just another revenue generator. Convert that issue into a money machine.

I bought my access port through a Cobb dealer with one year of support and custom tuning. Services is where the money is. I am not even sure i will use the support i bought or the custom tuning.

The concept of paying for support is a difficult one for me. If I read about a customer with a legit problem, I would have a tough time not responding if they were not paying.

[well_armed]

Two or even three tiered distribution is around for a reason.

If it is ripe for disruption, it will happen. Just don't ask APR to do it for you.

[QuattroLife]

1) absolutely you would need tech support, through a well managed tech guide/forum/dealers i dont see any problems. KISS keep it simple and easy to use and the problems will be few

2)Its funny you say this yet there are plenty of manufactures who have these tools out in hands of users without problems for BMW, Mitsubishi, honda etc.... not to mention the GTR (ive heard tuners compare the factory ecu to motek if not better)

3) i dont think you understand how a device like this could move a company into direct market share. do a vin lock on it and marry it to a car. if unmarried sell another user license to the next person . this would allow a resale value (huge benefit compared to current), it would also allow that device into the hand of those who couldnt justify $2,000 for a tune but can justify $800 and $300 for a license. imagine that device selling three times over 4-6 years and you have more money. not only that but it takes away from the "cheaper" tuners out there because at that price point you would be in direct competition and with the name of the company most would be foolish to choose another brand.

if i could buy a product and use it for a year or two (my typical lifecycle) and then resell it i would be much more likely to purchase that product than one that has no value when i sell the car.

i have a credit card ready for the first company who offers this product at a reasonable cost.

Nissan/Mitsubishi/Honda aren't as motivated as VAG for closing off the software backdoors. That's an VAG problem, not a tuner problem. And by VAG problem I mean as Arin stated.. there's a possibility that VAG can close off all of the software backdoors that GIAC/APR use for port flashing and all of the sudden next week the hardware wouldn't work anymore. As for BMW? There's a reason COBB doesn't have a tune for the N55 motor (harsher security/possible hardware backdoor needed).

[Jeff@RevoUSA]

Hi Jeff, does that discount code work here in Finland for a Revo map for my Golf 6 TDI 4Motion 1.6 CR??

Great reading all this, very interesting indeed.

Sure. PM coming your way.

[SwankPeRFection]

lol at the discount code. I didn't pay close enough attention to the actual code until last night. haha, good one Jeff.

[saxon]

Nissan/Mitsubishi/Honda aren't as motivated as VAG for closing off the software backdoors. That's an VAG problem, not a tuner problem. And by VAG problem I mean as Arin stated.. there's a possibility that VAG can close off all of the software backdoors that GIAC/APR use for port flashing and all of the sudden next week the hardware wouldn't work anymore. As for BMW? There's a reason COBB doesn't have a tune for the N55 motor (harsher security/possible hardware backdoor needed).

why would one manufacturer be more resistant to blocking the tuning aftermarket than the next? there is always a way around it if they do . i cant imagine a manufacture taking the time/efforts to go back and rewrite code just to stop a minority of tuners from hacking into it.

[AQuattro]

why would one manufacturer be more resistant to blocking the tuning aftermarket than the next? there is always a way around it if they do . i cant imagine a manufacture taking the time/efforts to go back and rewrite code just to stop a minority of tuners from hacking into it.

It's called risk management.

ECU harder to crack or hide tune = less tuned cars = less warranty claims company has to pay for

But making the ECU harder to crack costs money so there needs to be a balance. An Audi engine costs 20k. A Honda or Subaru engine is probably closer to 5k. Who do you think would spend more money on minimizing their risk?

Car manufactures update tunes all the time for lots of reasons. The cost to them to remove a back door is small in the big picture.

[SwankPeRFection]

It's called risk management.

ECU harder to crack or hide tune = less tuned cars = less warranty claims company has to pay for

But making the ECU harder to crack costs money so there needs to be a balance. An Audi engine costs 20k. A Honda or Subaru engine is probably closer to 5k. Who do you think would spend more money on minimizing their risk?

Car manufactures update tunes all the time for lots of reasons. The cost to them to remove a back door is small in the big picture.

I remember a time when a Cadillac Northstar engine cost less than a B18C5, so I wouldn't go too far and say one is more expensive than the next in terms of figurative cost. Just because the dealer bill said 20k to fix your blown engine under warranty doesn't really mean shit. But granted, the part isn't cheap... we get that. Also, remember that those other cars cost less than an S4, so of course the engine won't have a similar cost but retroactively speaking, those companies would have the same stake in trying to keep from covering unwarranted engine replacements. Just because it's cheaper doesn't make it OK for a company to absorb any less than if it cost more.

I do always find it amusing how you can go look up all the parts that make up your car and come out with a cost that's WAY above what the cost of the actual new car was. Just seems wrong to me... I don't care how you look at it.

[AQuattro]

Just because it's cheaper doesn't make it OK for a company to absorb any less than if it cost more.

Look at it like insurance. Insuring a 500k house is going to cost more than a 200k house right? Well for the same reasons a manufacturer will spend more to mange the risks associated with a higher value product.


I do always find it amusing how you can go look up all the parts that make up your car and come out with a cost that's WAY above what the cost of the actual new car was. Just seems wrong to me... I don't care how you look at it.

Pretty simple economics on this one. Funneling parts in bulk through a mass production facility costs WAY less than packaging each of those parts individually, shipping them in much smaller quantities to a warehouse and then even smaller quantities to a retail store, where they need to be sold individually.

[SwankPeRFection]

Pretty simple economics on this one. Funneling parts in bulk through a mass production facility costs WAY less than packaging each of those parts individually, shipping them in much smaller quantities to a warehouse and then even smaller quantities to a retail store, where they need to be sold individually.

No, we're talking about straight up Audi parts. It's highway robbery and if you do the same research with all brands of cars, you'll see that they all do the same thing. It's nothing more than a money making process from replacement parts. It doesn't cost them more to make that part if it goes in the car when built or when something breaks on it months/years later. Yes, there is a cost associated with stockpiling enough of these parts, storing them, etc. but if you look at the prices, you'll see they are several times as much as they would be when the car is actually put together. Also, stating that it's because the manufacturer buys these parts in limited quantities after production is also not entirely right as everything they get is usually bulk anyway. Some of that inventory goes to production and some of it goes to the chain of replacement parts. I'd be interested to see the individualized build sheet cost of a car, then comparing that to the MSRP and Invoice of the car and then the actual parts costs to build that same car again if you bought all those parts after the fact. I think it's safe to say the cost would be about 300k for an S4 at the price points we've seen. [rolleyes] Obviously I'm exaggerating a bit on the price, but it sure as hell isn't going to be 60k or anywhere close to what you might have paid for it. I just don't agree with this sort of thing, that's all.

[integroid]

No, we're talking about straight up Audi parts. It's highway robbery and if you do the same research with all brands of cars, you'll see that they all do the same thing. It's nothing more than a money making process from replacement parts. It doesn't cost them more to make that part if it goes in the car when built or when something breaks on it months/years later. Yes, there is a cost associated with stockpiling enough of these parts, storing them, etc. but if you look at the prices, you'll see they are several times as much as they would be when the car is actually put together. Also, stating that it's because the manufacturer buys these parts in limited quantities after production is also not entirely right as everything they get is usually bulk anyway. Some of that inventory goes to production and some of it goes to the chain of replacement parts. I'd be interested to see the individualized build sheet cost of a car, then comparing that to the MSRP and Invoice of the car and then the actual parts costs to build that same car again if you bought all those parts after the fact. I think it's safe to say the cost would be about 300k for an S4 at the price points we've seen. [rolleyes] Obviously I'm exaggerating a bit on the price, but it sure as hell isn't going to be 60k or anywhere close to what you might have paid for it. I just don't agree with this sort of thing, that's all.

So you are saying car manufacturers are trying to make a profit as any other business? Shocking;) Seriously though....most car manufacturers barely break even on new cars.

[FatalBert]

So you are saying car manufacturers are trying to make a profit as any other business? Shocking;) Seriously though....most car manufacturers barely break even on new cars.

Proof...

[saxon]

Look at it like insurance. Insuring a 500k house is going to cost more than a 200k house right? Well for the same reasons a manufacturer will spend more to mange the risks associated with a higher value product.



.

You are also forgettingthat for every s4 that's sold, twenty Honda civics are sold, and then for every s4 that gets tuned 5+ civics will get tuned. In the end that cheaper car will have more risk

[AQuattro]

You are also forgettingthat for every s4 that's sold, twenty Honda civics are sold

Right, so what? I'm talking about per vehicle risk. The chance of any given Audi or Civic being tuned is probably roughly the same. So the 60k car is going to have more tuning protection ("insurance") than the 20k car.

[NWS4Guy]

Proof...

Perhaps not as much in the US, but the price for an S4 in most other countries would shock the US buyer, and not that is not all due to import tariffs and taxes.

[saxon]

Right, so what? I'm talking about per vehicle risk. The chance of any given Audi or Civic being tuned is probably roughly the same. So the 60k car is going to have more tuning protection ("insurance") than the 20k car.

Your still liking at it add a pretty car basis and not as a "whole"

[mrbubba]

Sorry to bump an old thread, but I've a question and this came up in my Google searching [emoji16]

I have a 2010 S4 and it says the ECU is locked, does this mean the ECU has to be removed by the tuner, or has another way been found? Its all new to me and very interesting, my old E90 3 series was a simple OBD flash to stage 1, even did the gearbox flash that way with my tablet [emoji41]

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[whiped]

You can flash through the ODBII port, no need to remove the ECU.

[mrbubba]

You can flash through the ODBII port, no need to remove the ECU.Hmm that's what I thought, but then read this


What is a ‘locked’ ECU?

From MY2010 VW Audi Group updated the ECU security on certain ECU types. This is an enhanced version of ECU security that has actually been incorporated in Bosch ECU’s since 2005, but has only now been fully activated. It is not currently possible to override this security lock by communicating with the ECU via the OBD2 port. This issue affects all remap/tuning companies. The security can be deactivated (unlocked) if the ECU is removed from the car, opened up and then the communication takes place directly with the board. Once unlocked a special Revo file can be flashed into the ECU either on the bench or through the OBD2 port in the usual manner.

NOTE: Dealers reserve the right to charge a workshop fee for ECU removal and reinstallation.


They are a Revo supplier

https://www.mdmtechnik.co.uk/revo-remap-faqs/

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