BEL vs APB

[hots4auce]

just double checking are the "BF" and "BEL" one and the same I've been looking for a BEL short block
and if this is the correct one where are my best places to look. I've been searching online and can only find
expensive long blocks.

[TweetsS4Estate]

Call those all the "gen 2" block. All are one in the same just different stamping

[jibberjive]

"BF" means that the part number ends in BF. BEL is the engine code, not the part number of the block. All BEL engines have "BF" part number blocks, and some later APB engines have the "BF" block.

[disrepos]

I picked up an APB engine recently in Salt Lake City, tore it down, and noticed some interesting things. Came from a manual transmission car, old style intake manifold with F-hose and old style N249 plumbing.

Funny thing is, this motor has been up for sale for nearly a year. I almost picked it up last thanksgiving when I was down there visiting family. Nearly complete long block $150.

Year and Model of Donor Car: 2000 S4

Engine Code (APB, BEL, ASJ, AZR): APB

Block Part Number: 073 103 021 BF

V3: 99

V4: 22F

V6: BM53 (this marking is located in the valley above cylinder 6, not cylinder 1. No marking in the valley near cylinder 1)

Crank Lock Pin Cover Type (Plastic Bolt-Down or Metal Allen Bolt): Plastic Bolt Down

Main Bolts (Equal or Unequal Length): Unequal

Other Comments: Outer mains don't go all the way through the main webbing, fully machined main webbing (same as the pics of the later version blocks).

[jibberjive]

I picked up an APB engine recently in Salt Lake City, tore it down, and noticed some interesting things. Came from a manual transmission car, old style intake manifold with F-hose and old style N249 plumbing.

Funny thing is, this motor has been up for sale for nearly a year. I almost picked it up last thanksgiving when I was down there visiting family. Nearly complete long block $150.

Year and Model of Donor Car: 2000 S4

Engine Code (APB, BEL, ASJ, AZR): APB

Block Part Number: 073 103 021 BF

V3: 99

V4: 22F

V6: BM53 (this marking is located in the valley above cylinder 6, not cylinder 1. No marking in the valley near cylinder 1)

Crank Lock Pin Cover Type (Plastic Bolt-Down or Metal Allen Bolt): Plastic Bolt Down

Main Bolts (Equal or Unequal Length): Unequal

Other Comments: Outer mains don't go all the way through the main webbing, fully machined main webbing (same as the pics of the later version blocks).

Surprised I never saw that engine. Was it on KSL or possibly Craigslist?

Looks like you've got the same 'early BF' block that I have. That BM53 marking is actually marking 'V1' with the convention that you're using (http://www.audizine.com/forum/showthread.php/527211-BEL-vs-APB?p=8590731&viewfull=1#post8590731). Any chance you can take some good pictures of the webbing windows? Or better yet, if you have a caliper handy, any chance I can get you to measure the dimensions of the webbing window (like Britishturbo did earlier with his blocks)? I think my block has the same thicker webbing of the later 'BF' blocks, but I'd love some verification, as I don't plan on tearing my motor down excepting failure (and I'll be dancing over the power line of failure if my block's webbing is the same as the older 'AE' blocks).

[disrepos]

Surprised I never saw that engine. Was it on KSL or possibly Craigslist?

Looks like you've got the same 'early BF' block that I have. That BM53 marking is actually marking 'V1' with the convention that you're using (http://www.audizine.com/forum/showthread.php/527211-BEL-vs-APB?p=8590731&viewfull=1#post8590731). Any chance you can take some good pictures of the webbing windows? Or better yet, if you have a caliper handy, any chance I can get you to measure the dimensions of the webbing window (like Britishturbo did earlier with his blocks)? I think my block has the same thicker webbing of the later 'BF' blocks, but I'd love some verification, as I don't plan on tearing my motor down excepting failure (and I'll be dancing over the power line of failure if my block's webbing is the same as the older 'AE' blocks).

KSL. Guy named Greg. When I saw it the first time last year he was asking $400 for the long block, but also parting it out. It's missing a few external parts and has 6 bent intake valves (center valve, all 6 cylinders), otherwise it's in great shape, just needs a bath.

I found your identifier list yesterday but didn't notice the legend until today. Looking at the pics of yours, its a spitting image.


Year and Model of Donor Car: S4, 2000

Engine Code (APB, BEL, ASJ, AZR): APB

Block Part Number: 078 103 021 BF

V1: BM53

V2: 2

V3: 99

V4: 22F

V5: *APB 021858*

V6: N/A

V7: N/A

P1: HAK 2416

P2: 2a (not sure, pretty illegible)

D1: 1b

Crank Lock Pin Cover Type (Plastic Bolt-Down or Metal Allen Bolt): Plastic Bolt Down

R1: 2a

Bare Block Weight: N/A

Main Bolts (Equal or Unequal Length): Unequal

Other Comments: Old style manifold w F-hose and old style N249 plumbing, newer style valley pan gasket.

Mains Dimensions: Holes - ~40mm

Mains Pictures:

http://imageshack.us/a/img163/3237/aysl.jpg

As compared to another spare block I have sitting in my garage. Early type.

http://imageshack.us/a/img15/350/0zyt.jpg

[spd579]

**************UPDATE*********************
I just called Audi confirming a VIN with a block type and from the converstation it seems the APB and BEL are dependeant upon year of manufacturing not APB or BEL. post 2003 the blocks are all the same accoring to Audi.

[jibberjive]

Mains Dimensions: Holes - ~40mm
Awesome, thanks for the measurement and pictures. So it's confirmed that the '99 BF blocks are the same internally as the later 'BF' blocks.



I was answering your question about non BF with unequal length bolts...



Are you sure Sean's motor had uneven bolts to begin with (I haven't asked him)?

Never got an answer to this. Are you sure that Sean's 'AE' motor had uneven bolts to begin with? I've never seen/heard of an uneven bolt length block that wasn't 'BF' other than this claim, so if this claim is not true, than I think a pretty strong correlation can be drawn that uneven bolt length equals newer, stronger block.

[britishturbo]

Awesome, thanks for the measurement and pictures. So it's confirmed that the '99 BF blocks are the same internally as the later 'BF' blocks.






Never got an answer to this. Are you sure that Sean's 'AE' motor had uneven bolts to begin with? I've never seen/heard of an uneven bolt length block that wasn't 'BF' other than this claim, so if this claim is not true, than I think a pretty strong correlation can be drawn that uneven bolt length equals newer, stronger block.

Sean told me on the phone that his AE block had unequal length bolts.
He also got another ,motor that had unequal length bolts that turned out to be an AE as well.

The bolt length has nothing to do with block version it seems

And I've said it before but I'll say it again. BF and BEL blocks are the same internally.
Audi changed to the BEL tag because of it having a different ECU / emissions. Although a few subtle things externally on the blocks changed.

Oh and I did a tear down on my BF block the other week.. it still looks brand new in the mains even after some 50+psi action lol.

[disrepos]

Never got an answer to this. Are you sure that Sean's 'AE' motor had uneven bolts to begin with? I've never seen/heard of an uneven bolt length block that wasn't 'BF' other than this claim, so if this claim is not true, than I think a pretty strong correlation can be drawn that uneven bolt length equals newer, stronger block.

I have two examples of AE blocks with unequal bolt lengths as well.

One example which came from a 2000 A6 has the V5 marking as *APB 009352*. Assuming this is the serial, they started pretty early with the uneven bolts.

Edit: the second AE example is *APB 013355*. Again, if V5 is the block serial, and they didn't start over with the first BF versions, Jibberjive's is 018188, and my early BF is 021858.

This could mean the change was made between #13355 and #18188?

[spd579]

http://imageshack.us/a/img15/350/0zyt.jpg

What kind of main caps are those? Mine look different

[Wide-66]

I have a block i tore down for a 3L build. I was not going to use it because it was an early allroad "apb" block. Upon further inspection today I found it was a "BF" block. I also measured the mains and they came in at an average of 37.5mm so im thinking I can use this one no problem.

Thoughts? I want this in the machine shop like yesterday.

[UkuRiSh]

This is my AE block with 3.0 Crank no Plate fail at 32 psi on E85 [evilmad]

http://i831.photobucket.com/albums/zz234/UkuRiSh/IMG_2318_zpse69a8f4d.jpg (http://s831.photobucket.com/user/UkuRiSh/media/IMG_2318_zpse69a8f4d.jpg.html)
http://i831.photobucket.com/albums/zz234/UkuRiSh/IMG_2321_zps1a7ecea5.jpg (http://s831.photobucket.com/user/UkuRiSh/media/IMG_2321_zps1a7ecea5.jpg.html)
http://i831.photobucket.com/albums/zz234/UkuRiSh/IMG_2322_zpsc6ba940a.jpg (http://s831.photobucket.com/user/UkuRiSh/media/IMG_2322_zpsc6ba940a.jpg.html)

[bigern45]

YIKES^^^ any idea of what you were putting down, roughly?? i have an early block balanced by a machine shop, i dont beat on it but i want to be comfortable on a 600whp daily and 650 on race occasionally..

[UkuRiSh]

YIKES^^^ any idea of what you were putting down, roughly?? i have an early block balanced by a machine shop, i dont beat on it but i want to be comfortable on a 600whp daily and 650 on race occasionally..

I would keep around 600-620 TQ to be safe , I made around 650-700WTQ

[rtl5009]

ITguy did that same thing with K24's and 600 wtq. E85 man, the low end grunt from all the timing is mean. Shit is just cast, one flaw is all it takes.

[bigern45]

ill be running pump gas plus meth. no e85 around here. (1 total station in town, unless i get a connection with government or city officials)

had E85 been more available, a BF block would have been sourced. which is probably what ill end up doing later anyhow.

[UkuRiSh]

ill be running pump gas plus meth. no e85 around here. (1 total station in town, unless i get a connection with government or city officials)

had E85 been more available, a BF block would have been sourced. which is probably what ill end up doing later anyhow.

I have a BF Block and believe me it's not a big different like some people think it will fail exactly the same way as APB block . Only the Lee's idea can be the best for high HP " bedplate "

[britishturbo]

Uki was this a BF block or AE?

And I'm running a lot less timing down low on E85 than I used to for a reason...

[UkuRiSh]

Uki was this a BF block or AE?

And I'm running a lot less timing down low on E85 than I used to for a reason...

AE is my original one and I just pick up BF for other build

Yea I should smooth out my timing down little [=(]

[britishturbo]

ITguy did that same thing with K24's and 600 wtq. E85 man, the low end grunt from all the timing is mean. Shit is just cast, one flaw is all it takes.

Itguy and Uki had the same tuner... probably same timing down low...

[britishturbo]

AE is my original one and I just pick up BF for other build

Yea I should smooth out my timing down little [=(]

Yeah that was pushing it on an AE...

[UkuRiSh]

Itguy and Uki had the same tuner... probably same timing down low...



I have ton of difference file we start tune my car from very low timing and boost and then I push my tuner for more aggressive tune it's all my fault .

[britishturbo]

I have ton of difference file we start tune my car from very low timing and boost and then I push my tuner for more aggressive tune it's all my fault .

Power is very addictive... trust me I know...
Just one more psi...

[UkuRiSh]

Power is very addictive... trust me I know...
Just one more psi...

Yes exactly ! [:d]

[UkuRiSh]

Need a Block If any one have around Tri-state area PM me , The one I have BF is bad one .Thank you

[britishturbo]

Need a Block If any one have around Tri-state area PM me , The one I have BF is bad one .Thank you

Whats wrong with it?

[kramrs2]

Can you guys share what knd of timing were you using when the blocks failed?

Mine failed with 20o over stock, about 30psi running E100.

[UkuRiSh]

Whats wrong with it?

That block had melt piston and wall is Damaged to.


Can you guys share what knd of timing were you using when the blocks failed?


Mine failed with 20o over stock, about 30psi running E100.

My fail 22-25* , 32 Psi at 4700-4800rpm on E85 CEA 6266 Turbo

[brogan]

I'll have the RS4 engine apart the weekend for analysis.

http://i1357.photobucket.com/albums/q755/britishturbo/IMG959001_zps8be4875d.jpg

Did you analys the RS4 engine?

[britishturbo]

Did you analys the RS4 engine?

What would you like to know?

[rdcyclist]

What would you like to know?In your opinion, what broke? It looked like another main cap failure to me, but I'm not on the ground there...

[britishturbo]

In your opinion, what broke? It looked like another main cap failure to me, but I'm not on the ground there...

On what?

[rdcyclist]

On what?So maybe my memory is faulty and I don't have time to go back into your build thread (BTW, the best build thread ever; you are my hero. Anybody that can blow up three motors in pursuit of reliable big horsepower is The Man[hail]) but I seem to recall your last engine explosion was an RS4 block. You were getting somewhere around 720awhp at the time. This has got you on the mother of all main bearing girdle assemblies. Or am I losing my mind?

[brogan]

What would you like to know?

If its stronger than early APB, or AGB as its called here in europe? I forgot to measure the caps on my ASJ block before I assembled it:/

[Meow]

Any one compare 2.8 Block with BEL and APB ?


Yeah! +1 I am ignorant when it comes to knowing the 2.8.

FYI the 2.8 a4 blocks are 2 bolt mains. Nuff said, they are basically useless for power.

[brogan]

http://imageshack.com/a/img6/306/ip13.jpg
http://imageshack.com/a/img41/9857/22ku.jpg

This happend to my AGB block. The setup was : RS4 heads, pistons, crank, rods, K04´s, ported intake, ev14 750cc, 28psi dropped to 25 on E85.. 100-200km/h 7.3s

[UkuRiSh]

http://imageshack.com/a/img6/306/ip13.jpg
http://imageshack.com/a/img41/9857/22ku.jpg

This happend to my AGB block. The setup was : RS4 heads, pistons, crank, rods, K04´s, ported intake, ev14 750cc, 28psi dropped to 25 on E85.. 100-200km/h 7.3s


Did you ever dyned? Do you have log with acceleration? E85 is the killer of our engine to much tq at early spike. I'm going to stay with 93 Oct this time .

[brogan]

Did you ever dyned? Do you have log with acceleration? E85 is the killer of our engine to much tq at early spike. I'm going to stay with 93 Oct this time .

No i dont.. but i will when i get it back together. Running H-beam rods and ASJ block will hopefully do it?!

[brogan]

I spoke to LOBA about the RS4 blocks and the run the "HULK", a 3.0 LO750 car with around 1000NM without a girdle so I should be fine!

[Lupe-81]

brogan: just for interest as you live in Sweden, who is your tuner?

[brogan]

brogan: just for interest as you live in Sweden, who is your tuner?

Stertman motorsport :)

[Reich]

Brogan.
Do you have an idea on which block side there was the worst block damage? Like where the main web got completely sheard off?

[brogan]

Brogan.
Do you have an idea on which block side there was the worst block damage? Like where the main web got completely sheard off?

Drivers side!

[Reich]

Drivers side!

Thanks

[britishturbo]

I spoke to LOBA about the RS4 blocks and the run the "HULK", a 3.0 LO750 car with around 1000NM without a girdle so I should be fine!

I also made that 950NM at the wheels (their number is at the crank) on my 2.7... but I wouldn't recommend it :-)
Anyone who runs a 3.0 without a Girdle or Bedplate is going to have a bad day eventually even with the RS4 block if they push the power high enough.

[brogan]

I also made that 950NM at the wheels (their number is at the crank) on my 2.7... but I wouldn't recommend it :-)
Anyone who runs a 3.0 without a Girdle or Bedplate is going to have a bad day eventually even with the RS4 block if they push the power high enough.

Yea, Dahlback racing here in swe runs his VW polo with the RS4 block aswell. Think he dyned 1200whp and 1000 wnm without a girdle.

[FlyboyS4]

E85 is the killer of our engine to much tq at early spike.

Somebody made the decision to push timing advance, in conjunction with 28 psi of boost, to the point cylinder pressures caused that failure. E85 alone doesn't kill motors.

[landfill]

Is the rs4 block stronger than a BEL?

[landfill]

Also britishturbo are you ever going to make your bedplate
available to other AZ folks lol.

[brogan]

Somebody made the decision to push timing advance, in conjunction with 28 psi of boost, to the point cylinder pressures caused that failure. E85 alone doesn't kill motors.

My tuner (stertman) said he backed the timing as i ran with oem rs4 rods. But instead the block failed. Running the ASJ block and h-beam rods should make it possible to run more timing i think?

[britishturbo]

Yea, Dahlback racing here in swe runs his VW polo with the RS4 block aswell. Think he dyned 1200whp and 1000 wnm without a girdle.

O_o where can I read more about this? I've never heard of this car nor such high dyno numbers...

[britishturbo]

The Dahlback racing car was 980HP and 1200NM accoring to google. That's engine numbers though not wheel.

[brogan]

Ok i might be wrong but its lots of power anyways:) he runs it on track and pushes it to the limit and the car seem to be fine!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk (http://tapatalk.com/m?id=1)

[Meow]

My tuner (stertman) said he backed the timing as i ran with oem rs4 rods. But instead the block failed. Running the ASJ block and h-beam rods should make it possible to run more timing i think?

Holy crap, first ive heard of that, interesting to see a block crack before rods do! Though one might have caused the other, hard to say in catastrophic conditions such as bottom end failure.

[Mocke]

The Dahlback racing car was 980HP and 1200NM accoring to google. That's engine numbers though not wheel.

Dalbäck Racing dyno is a joke too, I know that from my own cars. I hade to do with this joker last 6 years with my S and RS cars.
My old tune was done on their Dynapack (Joypack) I made 450awhp/626awnm. The car was fast back than too, due to a moderat boost and very much timing, But was living vary dangerously becouse of not enough fueling.
I allways thought those numbers was incorrect, and I took my car to Mustang dyno, that showed 413awhp/578awnm.

If i would assume Dahlbäck Polo 980/1200 is not more than real 700awhp/900awnm. I Think i am generous with these numbers too.

[brogan]

Well ok. I was more interested in the numbers the block could hold and not ur aggresion towards dbr since ive heard that story before. By them numbers u wrote chp would be 850- 875 and cnm 1200-1250.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk (http://tapatalk.com/m?id=1)

[Mocke]

Well ok. I was more interested in the numbers the block could hold and not ur aggresion towards dbr since ive heard that story before. By them numbers u wrote chp would be 850- 875 and cnm 1200-1250.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk (http://tapatalk.com/m?id=1)


I was beeing generous with numbers :)

[FlyboyS4]

My tuner (stertman) said he backed the timing as i ran with oem rs4 rods. But instead the block failed. Running the ASJ block and h-beam rods should make it possible to run more timing i think?

Hmm, so did they think there was a structural flaw in the engine block? My comment was intended to point out that the E85 fuel wasn't what caused the failure, saying it was timing was a poor conclusion on my part.

[rtl5009]

This thread make a vr6 look better and better

[Reich]

I don't know why working or searching so hard to prevent those blocks from cracking. Griddle plate and end of that story. Common guy what's so scaring about a griddle plate. It's the cheapest solution of all and been proved to work.

[FlyboyS4]

Griddle plate and end of that story. Common guy what's so scaring about a griddle plate. It's the cheapest solution of all and been proved to work.

yumm, griddle ...

http://www.myaudis4.com/aw_images/griddle.jpg

[Lupe-81]

Has anyone cracked or seen cracked BF block yet?? No?? Tens of cracked early style blocks have been seen though.

[Reich]

I think Jason adict cracked one. Not sure.

[Reich]

yumm, griddle ...

http://www.myaudis4.com/aw_images/griddle.jpggriddle plate....;-)

[Meow]

I think Jason adict cracked one. Not sure.

One that jason had that cracked... Not all of them seem to crack in the cylinder like this, though lees and jasons both did.


https://scontent-a-ord.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/1379462_646590375363431_378503059_n.jpg

https://scontent-a-ord.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn2/1380466_646590362030099_1793706473_n.jpg

[Meow]

been proved to work.
http://www.reactiongifs.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/yeah-right.gif.pagespeed.ce.7r-aDokRRw.gif

[brogan]

One that jason had that cracked... Not all of them seem to crack in the cylinder like this, though lees and jasons both did.


https://scontent-a-ord.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/1379462_646590375363431_378503059_n.jpg

https://scontent-a-ord.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn2/1380466_646590362030099_1793706473_n.jpg

Ouch, how much power did he make?

[Lupe-81]

So lee (britishturbo?) and jason have cracked BF blocks? When did britishturbo cracked BF block?? Did his main web cracked also? What was the power level and setup with the jason's case?

[Meow]

So lee (britishturbo?) and jason have cracked BF blocks? When did britishturbo cracked BF block?? Did his main web cracked also? What was the power level and setup with the jason's case?

no, jason had a bf block break but lees was an early block, not a bf one. Jasons was at 630/675

[Lupe-81]

Ok, thanks for clarification. So, it seems jason broke his BF block mains + cylinder wall at the same power level (600-650whp) than most of the earlier blocks have cracked. What was the setup, was it 3.0 stroker?

[Reich]

Yeap. I have the same guruman's old setup back in 07. He did 649 and many quater miles in 10. 7 years after iuse the same block still. And same power level
I did 682 wtq last automne. So again. Griddle plate works just like it works in other platform.

[Reich]

http://www.reactiongifs.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/yeah-right.gif.pagespeed.ce.7r-aDokRRw.gif
Yes it works meow.

[Meow]

Ok, thanks for clarification. So, it seems jason broke his BF block mains + cylinder wall at the same power level (600-650whp) than most of the earlier blocks have cracked. What was the setup, was it 3.0 stroker?

yeah it was a 3.0 liter stroker setup.

[Rdp616]

I know it wouldn't make up for a girdle, but what about cryo freezing a block? Pretty popular in the racing world. When my cousin worked at Indy Headz. They would send blocks, rods, pistons, pretty much any kind of part to be cryo treated.

http://www.cryotron.com/thermal-stress

[Reich]

I know it wouldn't make up for a girdle, but what about cryo freezing a block? Pretty popular in the racing world. When my cousin worked at Indy Headz. They would send blocks, rods, pistons, pretty much any kind of part to be cryo treated.

http://www.cryotron.com/thermal-stress

Cryo just remove stress in metal but doesn't harden metal. The Idea cryo is to remove stress from manufacturing, turning the metal to a more stable piece by aligning metal molecule. But just barely harden it. I know a couple of guys that did this wit there grinded cam shaft. But they stil need Zink additive in oil to prevent them from fast wear out.
On the base line, the block would crack as fast as before.

Edit it's a wear resistant but does not harden parts.
cryogenic treatment is an enhancement to heat treating, not a replacement. You cannot take a piece of soft tool steel and increase the hardness one point through treatment. The transformation of the grain structure that takes place during heat treating is further completed during the cryogenic process. Minute carbide particles also precipitate to the surface during the process, giving more wear resistance without increasing brittleness. Some materials respond better to treatment than others. There is also a stress relief that happens during cryogenic treatment. Some of what happens is a mystery.

[Reich]

And I don't know if you know the price of cryogenic? That's super expensive. The bigger the part is the more expensive it is.

[martin0079]

And I don't know if you know the price of cryogenic? That's super expensive. The bigger the part is the more expensive it is.

Doesn't seem that expensive to me

http://www.nitrofreeze.com/services/conventional-cryogenic-treatment/motor-sports-fleet/engines/

[Reich]

Doesn't seem that expensive to me

http://www.nitrofreeze.com/services/conventional-cryogenic-treatment/motor-sports-fleet/engines/

Geez that's cheap! They definately lower the price sinse two years. Too bad it's not a solution.

[Monty23]

Any reason we can't fill the 4 main web windows with some sort of epoxy like HardBlok to strengthen the web?
http://www.hardblok.com/

http://i1357.photobucket.com/albums/q755/britishturbo/IMG_20130331_111103_661_zps4bab5923.jpg

[britishturbo]

Any reason we can't fill the 4 main web windows with some sort of epoxy like HardBlok to strengthen the web?
http://www.hardblok.com/

http://i1357.photobucket.com/albums/q755/britishturbo/IMG_20130331_111103_661_zps4bab5923.jpg

I'd be afraid of it coming lose because of thermal expansion and movement in the bottom end...
Maybe I should try it on a junk block and throw it in the oven lol.

[Cacti]

Jared at vlm spec plugged them, not sure with what or how. I remember reading it in one of his build threads.

[Monty23]

I'd be afraid of it coming lose because of thermal expansion and movement in the bottom end...
Maybe I should try it on a junk block and throw it in the oven lol.
Hardblock is suppose to have the same thermal expansion rate as cast iron.


Its coefficient of thermal expansion is identical to cast iron engine blocks.

and yes the stuff breaking loose is my concern as well.

[ama]

So in the end after reading this whole thread, if it says BF on it its the strong one, and also is the bel the same as bes? Bes is the european version i think

[slow ride]

Probably better off cleaning the block well and welding some plugs into the windows. If there is enough load to crack the cast iron, I don't see an epoxy bond doing squat for it. Problem is at high rpm you might need that bay to bay venting for windage, blowby gas, etc.

[Monty23]

I wouldn't weld anything in that location for fear of warpage of the main bearing surface.

[slow ride]

At this level with studs the mains should be line honed anyway IMHO. I dont' have an answer if it would warp anything. Heat up the block/plug and cool it slow and it would probably be fine, but still need to check it.

[ravensB5S4]

Are the windows the same size on either side of the block?

[Monty23]

Are the windows the same size on either side of the block?

I believe they are about the same size plus the big tolerancing for the casting process.

[kdf8454]

At this level with studs the mains should be line honed anyway IMHO. I dont' have an answer if it would warp anything. Heat up the block/plug and cool it slow and it would probably be fine, but still need to check it.

Agreed - in most cases a thermal bank as big as the block would need to be heated in an oven before welding and then properly cooled to prevent cracking. If brought to temp and cooled should not cause any issues with warping. I would be curious to see the results of someone attempting this - maybe not necessarily plugging, but bracing the window might be another solution

[spd579]

Girdle. Done. /thread

99.99% of you guys would never make enough power to even test a girdle. Not to mention I've yet to hear of a block breaking with a girdle........

[britishturbo]

Anyone speculating about welding up the windows has obviously never attempted to weld a cast iron block before... it is not at all easy, and in most cases damn near impossible.

It's a shame they didn't machine the windows the same way they do on the Aluminium blocks though :-)

Even more of a shame is that the windows aren't like the diesel blocks.

[slow ride]

Totally possible if the guy is good at tig welding using the correct filler. Actually holding under load is another story ;) The windows are there for a reason so I suggest figuring out other ways to vent the bays if this is done. If the beadplate or girdle fix the problem then forget about all this window crap.

[kdf8454]

^you're right, it is difficult, but not impossible. Not saying I'll ever be making that much power, but I would like to see someone get creative and experiment.

I've dealt with welding to cast iron turbine housings - as long as it gets to a high enough temperature it can be done.

[jibberjive]

I'm going to shortly be experimenting with some window things.

Sent from my SGH-M919 using Tapatalk

[britishturbo]

Totally possible if the guy is good at tig welding using the correct filler. Actually holding under load is another story ;) The windows are there for a reason so I suggest figuring out other ways to vent the bays if this is done. If the beadplate or girdle fix the problem then forget about all this window crap.

The windows are there to vent between cylinders. However, they are overkill for what is needed. But made a lot of sense for 260WHP which is what it was designed for.
I have a diesel audi block sitting here and the windows in it are tiny in comparison.

But... on my setup I wouldn't need any windows because I'll be running a dry sump setup.

[britishturbo]

You know just for the fun of it I'll get a block welded up. I have an early block here that's already cnc machined and honed even. Would be good to see what would happen to it.

[slow ride]

I can see that on the diesel, but they also operate at lower RPM than gas engines. I was going to say dry sump, but you got that covered :)

[britishturbo]

I can see that on the diesel, but they also operate at lower RPM than gas engines. I was going to say dry sump, but you got that covered :)


The window size is more about displacement and the resulting volume of air that needs to be moved around.
But I can tell you that on the 3.0 aluminium v6 engines the windows are a lot small.
Want me to post some pics?

[Monty23]

You know just for the fun of it I'll get a block welded up. I have an early block here that's already cnc machined and honed even. Would be good to see what would happen to it.

I'll test it if you want ;)

[spd579]

Could we just put some X's in the windows? or at least a square tube facing towards the crank in the windows?


https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5494/14219278038_7d2ba18081_b.jpg

[britishturbo]

Could we just put some X's in the windows? or at least a square tube facing towards the crank in the windows?


https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5494/14219278038_7d2ba18081_b.jpg

lol good luck with the.
The dynamics of the loading are quite complex.
I've been studying the blocks for over a year now.

[Meow]

The dynamics of the loading are quite complex.

Understatement of the year award. Lol


Filling the block is an interesting idea, might as well cast a new one or make a billet block ;) lol

[britishturbo]

Understatement of the year award. Lol


Filling the block is an interesting idea, might as well cast a new one or make a billet block ;) lol

You'll see a billet block "soon" :-)

[britishturbo]

Diesel block windows:

http://i1357.photobucket.com/albums/q755/britishturbo/Mobile%20Uploads/2014-04/IMG_20140407_185245735_zpszypvazlz.jpg

[Cacti]

Is that a 2.5tdi? Thought about buying one since you can get a short block for 150 pounds in England, lower oil pan in completely different along with the oil pump and filter. You going to test it out?

[slow ride]

Yes I see. So much more meat there, but it makes you wonder just why did the the change the block if it wasn't needed. Either way its cool to see some of you guys pushing the limits.

[spd579]

Yes I see. So much more meat there, but it makes you wonder just why did the the change the block is it wasn't needed. Either way its cool to see some of you guys pushing the limits.

It was needed for the diesel's torque output. Considering the 2.7t is only designed for ~250 ft pounds of torque I'd say it does it's job for that purpose. When we're trying to make it handle 3 times that I could see it possibly having issues.

[slow ride]

Well I figured it was due to torque, but then why change it on the gas 2.7t block if the larger hole size is not required for good ventilation, just to save a little cast iron? I doubt it would be worth it to change a foundry casting just to save that little bit of iron in the bottom end webbing.

I see above BT noted the deck height is higher also so for the diesel only being 2.5L. It must have smaller bore with better wall thickness for high combustion pressure.

[Meow]

Well I figured it was due to torque, but then why change it on the gas 2.7t block if the larger hole size is not required for good ventilation, just to save a little cast iron? I doubt it would be worth it to change a foundry casting just to save that little bit of iron in the bottom end webbing.

You should work as an engineer in the automotive industry for a bit, I could give you 100 different reasons why that could have changed. lol. The fact is it did, so no use worrying why it did now.

[ezfour]

So a quick test for model of block would be "stick your hand in there and see if you can feel one or two holes?" (that's what she said....)

and hope that doesnt turn out to be "Thats what HE said" [o_o]

Remember, if it smells like cologne, leave it alone!

[ravensB5S4]

I believe they are about the same size plus the big tolerancing for the casting process.

From these pictures it just looks like one side of the windows might be shaped a little differently? Hard to tell.

I've seen that the "AE" blocks basically crack anywhere, but is there any correlation on the "BF" blocks between the crack and which side of the block it occurred?

[oppositelock]

The windows are there to vent between cylinders. However, they are overkill for what is needed. But made a lot of sense for 260WHP which is what it was designed for.
I have a diesel audi block sitting here and the windows in it are tiny in comparison.

Sure, but diesels don't rev nearly as high, so air isn't moving through the holes nearly as quickly or as often, so they don't need to be as big.

I know Suzuki used to make the crankcase vent holes in GSX-R1000 engines bigger with every new model. The design briefs always called attention to how that gave free horsepower by reducing parasitic losses.

[Monty23]

Sure, but diesels don't rev nearly as high, so air isn't moving through the holes nearly as quickly or as often, so they don't need to be as big.

I know Suzuki used to make the crankcase vent holes in GSX-R1000 engines bigger with every new model. The design briefs always called attention to how that gave free horsepower by reducing parasitic losses.

I know I am more worried about overall strength of the main webs vs. efficiency. I can make up for efficiency losses with a few extra PSI if need, but the block cracking - game over.

[Meow]

I know I am more worried about overall strength of the main webs vs. efficiency. I can make up for efficiency losses with a few extra PSI if need, but the block cracking - game over.

When you rev to 15k that air becomes a bit of a factor for small bike motors trying to reduce every ounce and increase every tiny bit of hp safely.

I don't see the block cracking issue being solved easily for 2.7t builders. Not in the short term anyway. Looking forward to more development though.

[spd579]

When you rev to 15k that air becomes a bit of a factor for small bike motors trying to reduce every ounce and increase every tiny bit of hp safely.

I don't see the block cracking issue being solved easily for 2.7t builders. Not in the short term anyway. Looking forward to more development though.

Please show me one block that has cracked with a girdle.[:D]

[aysix]

Please show me one block that has cracked with a girdle.[:D]

TweetS4 wrecked his block with a girdle at mid 600's.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Cacti]

Does any one know how torque Ozz was running on his rs4 or if he had a girdle?

[bigern45]

TweetS4 wrecked his block with a girdle at mid 600's.


no he didnt

[britishturbo]

Sure, but diesels don't rev nearly as high, so air isn't moving through the holes nearly as quickly or as often, so they don't need to be as big.

I know Suzuki used to make the crankcase vent holes in GSX-R1000 engines bigger with every new model. The design briefs always called attention to how that gave free horsepower by reducing parasitic losses.

The vents in the webbing on the newer Audi V6 blocks are a lot smaller.

[britishturbo]

Please show me one block that has cracked with a girdle.[:D]


TweetS4 wrecked his block with a girdle at mid 600's.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


no he didnt

Tweets was running the block as is with no Girdle.

[britishturbo]

When you rev to 15k that air becomes a bit of a factor for small bike motors trying to reduce every ounce and increase every tiny bit of hp safely.

I don't see the block cracking issue being solved easily for 2.7t builders. Not in the short term anyway. Looking forward to more development though.

I guess I'll just prove you wrong the easy way then :-)

How much you want to wager on it?

[bigern45]

Tweets was running the block as is with no Girdle.

you slick multi-quoter you

[oppositelock]

When you rev to 15k that air becomes a bit of a factor for small bike motors trying to reduce every ounce and increase every tiny bit of hp safely.

I don't see the block cracking issue being solved easily for 2.7t builders. Not in the short term anyway. Looking forward to more development though.

The 600s rev to 15K, the 1000s to 13,750 nowadays. But I agree, it's like the difference between Audi diesels and the S4, relatively speaking.

Best of both worlds would probably be to weld up the windows, line bore the mains, and run a crankcase vacuum pump. Which apparently can be added on to a dry sump oil scavenging pump for not very much money:

http://nutterracingengines.com/racing_oil_pumps/crankcase_vacuum_facts.html

[oppositelock]

The cents int he webbing on the newer Audi V6 blocks are a lot smaller.

Interesting! Are there any 600+ whp B8 S4s running around out there?

[britishturbo]

Interesting! Are there any 600+ whp B8 S4s running around out there?

Different animal - Aluminum block with alimunum bedplate design.
But even the B6 3.0 aluminum block had much smaller windows.
I'll take a pic.

[ama]

What numbers would you call safe with agb with a girdle fully built? Is 666whp safe? ))

[britishturbo]

What numbers would you call safe with agb with a girdle fully built? Is 666whp safe? ))

I consider the limit with no girdle around 650wtq.
With girdle I do not know the limit yet...

[ama]

I consider the limit with no girdle around 650wtq.
With girdle I do not know the limit yet...

Could you please explain to me how to deal with the oil pan to transmission mounting
holes not fitting with the girdle?

[spd579]

Tweets was running the block as is with no Girdle.

Thank you for the correction.....as it stands the girdle makes the block bulletproof to 99% of what people will throw at it.

[britishturbo]

AVK 3.0 B6 block main webbing

http://i1357.photobucket.com/albums/q755/britishturbo/Mobile%20Uploads/IMG_20140613_144726116_zpsztvnrw85.jpg (http://s1357.photobucket.com/user/britishturbo/media/Mobile%20Uploads/IMG_20140613_144726116_zpsztvnrw85.jpg.html)

[britishturbo]

Could you please explain to me how to deal with the oil pan to transmission mounting
holes not fitting with the girdle?

My girdle doesn't drop the oil pan down.

[ama]

i meant eurospec

[Monty23]

i meant eurospec

You just leave the bottom 3 bolts out from the pan -> trans mounting. Or modify the pan.

[ama]

You just leave the bottom 3 bolts out from the pan -> trans mounting. Or modify the pan.
Anyone running it like this? Sounds ghetto :)

[Monty23]

Anyone runnig it like this? Sounds ghetto :)

I remember reading a thread where someone spoke with Eurospec and the answer they gave was to leave the bottom 3 blots out.

I'm actually not even sure if you could modify the oil pan to fit the bolts due to possible interference issues with the subframe?

[ama]

I remember reading a thread where someone spoke with Eurospec and the answer they gave was to leave the bottom 3 blots out.

I'm actually not even sure if you could modify the oil pan to fit the bolts due to possible interference issues with the subframe?
Thats exactly what i was thinking, and i dont really want to leave the bottom 3 out. Thats like the easiest solution :)

[britishturbo]

Personally I wouldn't use a Eurospec girdle... the machining leaves a lot to be desired...
If it was me I would weld in a sub plate in the back section of oil pan and machine new through holes so that you can still use all the bolts for strength.

I should design a more "traditional" style of girdle like the Eurospec but one that keeps the pan at stock height.

[ama]

Personally I wouldn't use a Eurospec girdle... the machining leaves a lot to be desired...
If it was me I would weld in a sub plate in the back section of oil pan and machine new through holes so that you can still use all the bolts for strength.

I should design a more "traditional" style of girdle like the Eurospec but one that keeps the pan at stock height.

If your version of the girdle was ready that would be a different situation. Cant really wait anymore, 1 year long build already :)

[kramrs2]

I would suggest to you to read this thread:
audisrs.com/archive/is-a-girdle-needed__o_t__t_22204.html

[Lupe-81]

I would suggest to you to read this thread:
audisrs.com/archive/is-a-girdle-needed__o_t__t_22204.html

How much timing did you have in 4000 - 5000 rpm when you broke your block?

[britishturbo]

How much timing did you have in 4000 - 5000 rpm when you broke your block?

It doesn't matter. Torque is Torque. It doesn't matter if it comes from timing or from pure power, the torque on the bottom end is the torque.

Some people think it's tuning that is breaking blocks. They are wrong. It's simply power. Make over 600wtq on an AE block or over 650wtq on a BF/BEL block and you will soon get a visit from the block fairy.

http://i1357.photobucket.com/albums/q755/britishturbo/BlockFairy_zps50117fd7.gif (http://s1357.photobucket.com/user/britishturbo/media/BlockFairy_zps50117fd7.gif.html)

[Lupe-81]

It doesn't matter. Torque is Torque. It doesn't matter if it comes from timing or from pure power, the torque on the bottom end is the torque.

Some people think it's tuning that is breaking blocks. They are wrong. It's simply power. Make over 600wtq on an AE block or over 650wtq on a BF/BEL block and you will soon get a visit from the block fairy.

http://i1357.photobucket.com/albums/q755/britishturbo/BlockFairy_zps50117fd7.gif (http://s1357.photobucket.com/user/britishturbo/media/BlockFairy_zps50117fd7.gif.html)

I know and I'm not one of those "some people". I asked because I'm trying to figure out of about how much torque kramrs2 did have during failure as I'm having same pj RS6 turbos with e85 right now on old style block.

What is your opinion, how accurate ME7logger calculated wtq is if RPM per mph and total mass are as close as can?

[jibberjive]

Has anyone had a block that was cast in 2000 (has '00' cast into the block in the middle of the V, just to the right of the power steering pump) that was not a 'BF' block?

[britishturbo]

Has anyone had a block that was cast in 2000 (has '00' cast into the block in the middle of the V, just to the right of the power steering pump) that was not a 'BF' block?

Not that I've seen. They switched in late 99 casting year to the "BF" style casting.
In fact the block I'm using for my 3.0 is a 99 cast BF part number. ;-)

[jibberjive]

I also have a '99 BF block, but I'm trying to see if there is a single switchover date. I've got a 2000 2.7t A6 that has an engine that is an '00 engine, but the intake mani etc is early style. Trying to verify that I have a BF block before I can take it out to verify.

[kramrs2]

How much timing did you have in 4000 - 5000 rpm when you broke your block?

I was running about 35degress.

[Monty23]

That's a lot more than I run at 31psi on e85. Were you tuned on a dyno?

[kramrs2]

Unfortunitly not. It was just based on logs with race fuel that I saw. I supposed that MBT is around that timing and used it. The car was going very fast with that timing. With E100 there is no correction at all.

[phila_dot]

It doesn't matter. Torque is Torque. It doesn't matter if it comes from timing or from pure power, the torque on the bottom end is the torque.

Some people think it's tuning that is breaking blocks. They are wrong. It's simply power. Make over 600wtq on an AE block or over 650wtq on a BF/BEL block and you will soon get a visit from the block fairy.

http://i1357.photobucket.com/albums/q755/britishturbo/BlockFairy_zps50117fd7.gif (http://s1357.photobucket.com/user/britishturbo/media/BlockFairy_zps50117fd7.gif.html)

This doesn't really make sense.

Power potential comes from the air/fuel mixture, but timing controls how much of that power potential is actually applied. Assuming proper combustion, the earlier the spark event, the greater the cylinder pressure. Cylinder pressure creates torque, work, and ultimately power.

Cylinder pressure breaks blocks, ignition timing dictates cylinder pressure, and tuning determines ignition timing. So how can you say that tuning isn't what breaks blocks?

Especially on E85 where MBT can unknowingly be passed and peak cylinder pressure can be applied to a rising piston.


That's a lot more than I run at 31psi on e85. Were you tuned on a dyno?


My block is holding on so far.
Old APB, 2,6bar (~38psi) of boost with 30+ degree of timing on E100.
Pauter rods and eurospec girdle.

I cracked my old block with RS6 at 2bar with 5degrees more timing.

I don't know. There are very few awd dynos in Brazil, and all far away from where I live.
What I can tell you is that I drove an Aventador and I felt it weak comparable to my car.

[Lupe-81]

I was running about 35degress.

35 degrees and 2 bar at torque peak??[eek]

[britishturbo]

This doesn't really make sense.

Power potential comes from the air/fuel mixture, but timing controls how much of that power potential is actually applied. Assuming proper combustion, the earlier the spark event, the greater the cylinder pressure. Cylinder pressure creates torque, work, and ultimately power.

Cylinder pressure breaks blocks, ignition timing dictates cylinder pressure, and tuning determines ignition timing. So how can you say that tuning isn't what breaks blocks?

Especially on E85 where MBT can unknowingly be passed and peak cylinder pressure can be applied to a rising piston.

Hey bud how you been?

OK perhaps I should have been a little clearer in what I was saying.
Obviously the tuning controls the engine and so that controls a lot but my point was simply that if you make enough torque (around 600wtq on early blocks and 650 on later) then it doesn't matter if it comes from E85 at 35 degrees at peak torque or from Race Gas at 10 degrees at peak torque. The torque is what breaks it.

[britishturbo]

And that's based on logs from 4 broken blocks from 3 different cars.

[rtl5009]

I was running about 35degress.
From experience from my car, I'm going to go out on a limb and say 35 degrees is past mbt....

[kramrs2]

Could be, but it is not much far out.
When I cracked my block I was tracking my car using 0.4bar. It was running with the exactly same timing map. It was perfect, very strong. Very linear. Faster than many +300hp cars on the straights. So, MBT should be on 35o or thereabout.
I changed to the 2bar map, same timing and the car was flying, but suddenly, low oil pressure and some smoke. The crack on the block made the car to lose oil pressure, and I was driving hard on the track, so I also lost the turbos on the process.

[jibberjive]

if you make enough torque (around 600wtq on early blocks and 650 on later) then it doesn't matter if it comes from E85 at 35 degrees at peak torque or from Race Gas at 10 degrees at peak torque. The torque is what breaks it.I know you already know this, so I'm not trying to school you, but there can be drastic differences in stresses on the motor, even with the car putting out the same torque at the same RPM.

Let's say, for hypothetical illustration, that a car is making 650wtq with 27 degrees of timing at 4000 RPM. Let's say that MBT for that setup and RPM is at 30 degrees. That same car puts out the same 650wtq at the same RPM, but with 33 degrees of timing this time. Though the RPM and power output at the wheels are the same, the second scenario puts way more stress on the motor and could crack the block, while the first setup could be completely safe on the motor. The person running the second scenario may say that the motor limit is 650wtq, while the person in the first scenario may say that is not the limit, as it wasn't the wtq that broke the motor, but going past MBT that put the additional stresses on the motor at the same power output.

Not saying that to imply anything about your broken motors one way or the other, just saying that it's not just torque and RPM that decide the limit of the motor.

[uponone nogaro]

Good threads guys learning alot about our motors

[DxC]

yea so when are some of these bedplates going to get on cars?!

[zillarob]

I dont need no bedpan in my car!! I'll just pull over [evilsmile]

[martin0079]

yea so when are some of these bedplates going to get on cars?!

Right after the second coming. VR swap is a better option.

[Monty23]

VRs have their own issues

[britishturbo]

I know you already know this, so I'm not trying to school you, but there can be drastic differences in stresses on the motor, even with the car putting out the same torque at the same RPM.

Let's say, for hypothetical illustration, that a car is making 650wtq with 27 degrees of timing at 4000 RPM. Let's say that MBT for that setup and RPM is at 30 degrees. That same car puts out the same 650wtq at the same RPM, but with 33 degrees of timing this time. Though the RPM and power output at the wheels are the same, the second scenario puts way more stress on the motor and could crack the block, while the first setup could be completely safe on the motor. The person running the second scenario may say that the motor limit is 650wtq, while the person in the first scenario may say that is not the limit, as it wasn't the wtq that broke the motor, but going past MBT that put the additional stresses on the motor at the same power output.

Not saying that to imply anything about your broken motors one way or the other, just saying that it's not just torque and RPM that decide the limit of the motor.

There are more factors than you realize in play...
Even my FEA models of the blocks cannot simulate all the factors involved, but it simulates enough to know what makes a difference. There is no cure for broken blocks - you can simply move the point of failure up.

Sure you might be able to move the point of failure by changing the torque curve of the engine.

I'm afraid I'm not going to let all I know about this out of the box, my days of telling the world everything I know are gone, but at the end of the day you can sum it up by looking at peak torque and that tells you enough of the picture to know if you are "safe" or not.

[britishturbo]

Right after the second coming. VR swap is a better option.

Pretty funny considering someone I know with a VR swapped 10 second B5 said to me a cpl weeks ago that if he did it over again he wouldn't do the swap.

Just saying ;-)

[rtl5009]

I dont need no bedpan in my car!! I'll just pull over [evilsmile]

I have a fire extinguisher and a roll of toilet paper in the back seat.

[britishturbo]

I have a fire extinguisher and a roll of toilet paper in the back seat.

And some oil cleanup materials for when you blow out cam caps?

[Meow]

I know you already know this, so I'm not trying to school you, but there can be drastic differences in stresses on the motor, even with the car putting out the same torque at the same RPM.

Let's say, for hypothetical illustration, that a car is making 650wtq with 27 degrees of timing at 4000 RPM. Let's say that MBT for that setup and RPM is at 30 degrees. That same car puts out the same 650wtq at the same RPM, but with 33 degrees of timing this time. Though the RPM and power output at the wheels are the same, the second scenario puts way more stress on the motor and could crack the block, while the first setup could be completely safe on the motor. The person running the second scenario may say that the motor limit is 650wtq, while the person in the first scenario may say that is not the limit, as it wasn't the wtq that broke the motor, but going past MBT that put the additional stresses on the motor at the same power output..


While I agree with you about this I would like to hear your explanation of why going past MBT puts additional stress on the motor. I think it will bring about interesting discussion.

[britishturbo]

While I agree with you about this I would like to hear your explanation of why going past MBT puts additional stress on the motor. I think it will bring about interesting discussion.

Yay lets talk about "Negative Torque" ;-)

[julex]

While I agree with you about this I would like to hear your explanation of why going past MBT puts additional stress on the motor. I think it will bring about interesting discussion.

We all know the trap E85 sets on inexperienced tuners with its resistance to knock.

It is very easy to get past MBT with E85 without tell tale knocking, which with other fuels is the limiting factory for timing, but not for E85 (and similar fuels). What ends up happening is people advancing past MBT - "why not few more degrees? it still doesn't knock!" - where the engine doesn't make any more power since some of its higher torque (it still makes more torque past TDC then lower timing motor) goes now to fight initial pressure rise as cylinder is still compressing the mixture. And they can't tell they are in danger zone anymore as there is no knocking....

Moving within certain timing range around MBT doesn't yield more or less torque from engine but the pressures within cylinder and forces the piston has to overcome (while compressing) and then being applied to it (past TDC) are vastly different between two timings.

Properly timed motor will not have huge pressure spike before TDC, it will spike right at or slightly after TDC. Badly timed motor will start spiking well before TDC forcing the piston to fight pressure wave, with peak of spike at or very shortly past TDC where piston cannot generate any torque on crank as crank -> rod -> piston are in line now, all the force will pound straight down and try to rip the webbing out of the block which is proven to be the weak link here...

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v14/SaabTuner/ViggenData/TimingAndPressureTrace.jpg

[rtl5009]

Booms,three words- unnecessary cylinder pressure.

[rtl5009]

And some oil cleanup materials for when you blow out cam caps?

No, fuck that oil.

[britishturbo]

We all know the trap E85 sets on inexperienced tuners with its resistance to knock.

It is very easy to get past MBT with E85 without tell tale knocking, which with other fuels is the limiting factory for timing, but not for E85 (and similar fuels). What ends up happening is people advancing past MBT - "why not few more degrees? it still doesn't knock!" - where the engine doesn't make any more power since some of its torque goes now to fight initial pressure rise as cylinder is still compressing the mixture. And they can't tell they are in danger zone anymore as there is no knocking....

Moving within certain timing range around MBT doesn't yield more or less torque from engine but the pressures within cylinder and forces the piston has to overcome (while compressing) and then being applied to it (past TDC) are vastly different between two timings.

Properly timed motor will not have huge pressure spike before TDC, it will spike right at or slightly after TDC. Badly timed motor will spike well before TDC forcing the piston to fight pressure wave, with large spike at or very shortly past TDC where piston cannot generate any torque on crank as crank -> rod -> piston are in line now, all the force will pound straight down and try to rip the webbing out of the block which is proven to be the weak link here...

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v14/SaabTuner/ViggenData/TimingAndPressureTrace.jpg

I'm tempted to argue against this but I don't have the time today haha.
Good description of MBT.
False conclusion on web breakage.

[julex]

False conclusion on web breakage.

Okiedokie [:)].

I can speculate that this is a compound effect of loading/off loading and thus material fatigue, shearing nature of forces applied to webbing/caps/bolts (if it was in line engine we wouldn't have this particular factor at play) and perhaps some resonant frequency (some killer RPM value) where waves might amplify each other eventually causing failure... etc. Lots of things could be at play but I guess you know better with all the models you applied to the block!

[Monty23]

in for girdle results

[rtl5009]

Floating a cap? If you were lifting the main the bolt would be stretched, and the bearing would be spun most likely. To my under standing this isn't the case.

The main webs are letting go first.

Ahh you edited your post....

[britishturbo]

Okiedokie [:)].

I can speculate that this is a compound effect of loading/off loading and thus material fatigue, shearing nature of forces applied to webbing/caps/bolts (if it was in line engine we wouldn't have this particular factor at play) and perhaps some resonant frequency (some killer RPM value) where waves might amplify each other eventually causing failure... etc. Lots of things could be at play but I guess you know better with all the models you applied to the block!

It is indeed a very very complex problem.
But most people fail to take into account some of the biggest factors.

Either way I hope to never see a cracked main web on any of my engines again.

[britishturbo]

Floating a cap? If you were lifting the main the bolt would be stretched, and the bearing would be spun most likely. To my under standing this isn't the case.

The main webs are letting go first.

Ahh you edited your post....

The caps are indeed moving... cast iron cracks when deflected too much.
But where do the caps move? That is half of the puzzle.

[Monty23]

Floating a cap? If you were lifting the main the bolt would be stretched, and the bearing would be spun most likely. To my under standing this isn't the case.

The main webs are letting go first.

Ahh you edited your post....

You are quick as I edited my post right away ;)

But the main caps are definitely floating as Reich showed in his post about his eurospec girdle.

edit for link: http://www.audizine.com/forum/showthread.php/525779-Good-news-for-2-7-block-(-crack-related-)?p=8769756&viewfull=1#post8769756

[jibberjive]

There are more factors than you realize in play...
I well realize that there are many factors in play, and my comment wasn't saying that MBT and timing advance is the sole factor. Rather I was directly commenting on what I quoted, which said that it doesn't matter if it is on X fuel at Y degrees of timing or Z fuel with B degrees of timing, torque is torque, and is what breaks blocks in general. So I was commenting on the situation where even at the same measured torque output, the stresses on the motor can be drastically different, and that it is indeed fuel and timing dependent.

[jibberjive]

While I agree with you about this I would like to hear your explanation of why going past MBT puts additional stress on the motor. I think it will bring about interesting discussion.

Julex already addressed it, and like he said, there is a specific crank angle (generally about 16 degrees ATDC) where you want the peak combustion pressure to hit to get the most power. The ignition timing advance required to make that peak happen at that particular spot is what defines MBT. When you advance timing too much so that the combustion pressure peaks before this, you not only don't make as much power, the stresses on the engine rise quickly as well. It has to do with burn duration, combustion pressure and geometry of the rotating assembly.

[britishturbo]

You are quick as I edited my post right away ;)

But the main caps are definitely floating as Reich showed in his post about his eurospec girdle.

edit for link: http://www.audizine.com/forum/showthread.php/525779-Good-news-for-2-7-block-(-crack-related-)?p=8769756&viewfull=1#post8769756

Float is not the correct term btw.
"Walk" is.

[rtl5009]

Float is not the correct term btw.
"Walk" is.

I think tosser is the correct term.[eek]

[britishturbo]

I think tosser is the correct term.[eek]

A Wanker like you would obviously see a Tosser like him ;-)

[spd579]

Can we go with "trickle"? or "crip walk"? I think "crip walk" is more fitting as it's not linear much like the cap's movement. [:D]

[britishturbo]

Can we go with "trickle"? or "crip walk"? I think "crip walk" is more fitting as it's not linear much like the cap's movement. [:D]

I'm not gonna lie... I had to Google "Crip Walk"... lol

[Monty23]

https://slm-assets3.secondlife.com/assets/6296260/lightbox/c-walk_music_1.jpg?1348255220

[uponone nogaro]

Gangsta boogie

[Meow]

Moving within certain timing range around MBT doesn't yield more or less torque from engine but the pressures within cylinder and forces the piston has to overcome (while compressing) and then being applied to it (past TDC) are vastly different between two timings.

Properly timed motor will not have huge pressure spike before TDC, it will spike right at or slightly after TDC. Badly timed motor will start spiking well before TDC forcing the piston to fight pressure wave, with peak of spike at or very shortly past TDC where piston cannot generate any torque on crank as crank -> rod -> piston are in line now, all the force will pound straight down and try to rip the webbing out of the block which is proven to be the weak link here...

not exactly... but close!


When you advance timing too much so that the combustion pressure peaks before this, you not only don't make as much power, the stresses on the engine rise quickly as well. It has to do with burn duration, combustion pressure and geometry of the rotating assembly.

You both explained MBT fine, and I think most people in this thread know what it is and what going past it causes for cylinder pressure spikes, but that is not what my question was.

My discussion point is WHY that cylinder pressure spike before TDC causes extra stress. I have my own answer to this question, and Lee touched on it with his hint, but neither of you really did quiet get there. You both gave answers like "it has to do with ____. Without really discussing it. Im not sure if that's because you didn't know, or didn't want to get deeper into it. Well I want to go deeper into the issues so here we go...



The problem is not that the piston is moving up and the force fights inertia. The inertia force of the piston is very small at that point compared to the cylinder pressure. The real problem is torque on the crankshaft. You have a negative torque being applied because the rod is on the wrong side of the crank while the force is being seen by the piston. This negative torque increases the torque difference on the shaft. Because our crank is strong, it doesn't break, it deflects though.

NOW we are getting somewhere. Crank deflection and web cracking. (ON SNAP)



This picture is to illustrate how torque is applied to the crank, if the spike is before TDC, the torque will be in the wrong direction.

http://jvfenergyliberator3.com/images/Pistontocrank%20mechanism.jpg

This picture is to illustrate the opposing torques.

http://www.roymech.co.uk/images/Shaft_3.gif

Causing above normal crank deflection. (picture is exaggerated for visual reference but use the color and scale provided to get an actual idea of deflection)

http://www.simced.de/mediapool/140/1408748/resources/big_31061863_0_450-172.png



Just my $0.02 though.

[Monty23]

I have seen references to aluminum main caps used in Buick V-6s which allows the crank more freedom under high load. This added flexibility is suppose to help keep the block from trying to flex and crack. Thoughts?

[Scotty@Advanced]

I have seen references to aluminum main caps used in Buick V-6s which allows the crank more freedom under high load. This added flexibility is suppose to help keep the block from trying to flex and crack. Thoughts?

Not sure about the caps but aluminum rods can handle more cylinder pressure due to the amount of plasticity the material allows.

[Meow]

I have seen references to aluminum main caps used in Buick V-6s which allows the crank more freedom under high load. This added flexibility is suppose to help keep the block from trying to flex and crack. Thoughts?

Now you are getting somewhere! I like the idea, wonder how applicable it could be.

[Monty23]

Now you are getting somewhere! I like the idea, wonder how applicable it could be.


Aluminum caps do work. We've been racing big block mopars forever and have never broke a block. We use B1 Original heads an make 850 to 900 hp depending on whether we're running gas or alky. If you run both steel rods and caps you will break the block webbing sooner or later Billet caps seem to work if you run aluminum rods, but for the block to live you have to have a dead blow type of material in the mix somewhere.

source: http://www.speedtalk.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=7669&highlight=aluminum+caps

and this is a good read:
http://www.bcrproducts.com/maincaps.html

[rtl5009]

Bridges use expansion joints. Tall Buildings sway in the wind.

[jibberjive]

I think it's pretty intuitive that if a pressure spike happens before TDC, the force is being applied in the wrong direction.

Not sure about the caps but aluminum rods can handle more cylinder pressure due to the amount of plasticity the material allows.
I think you meant to say elasticity rather than plasticity?

Sent from my SGH-M919 using Tapatalk

[Scotty@Advanced]

I think it's pretty intuitive that if a pressure spike happens before TDC, the force is being applied in the wrong direction.

I think you meant to say elasticity rather than plasticity?

Sent from my SGH-M919 using Tapatalk


Probably a better term yes.

[jibberjive]

Probably a better term yes.

I figured it was a slip, considering that the terms have pretty much opposite meanings.

[Mocke]

Very interesting.
My question is: How do we know were the MBT is simply when tuning? When do i know, now it is too much timing??
And second question is: Does boost has to do with it?
If i have more boost - i need to turn timing down?

[Mocke]

I was running about 35degress.

35 deg at the highest load??? That is just insane much timing
What did you have at redline?
This is on 100% Ethanol i guess??

[Meow]

I think it's pretty intuitive that if a pressure spike happens before TDC, the force is being applied in the wrong direction.
Neither you nor julex mentioned it. Also neither of you mentioned specifics of the additional stress (what part is being stress and in what manner, tension, compression, torsion). Well, julex tried but only came up with "when they are all in line the force is down"

[jibberjive]

You don't need to post leading questions to give yourself permission to further post whatever you would like to put out there. Rather than posing a question and acting like you are correcting someone when they didn't answer it in the manner you had hoped ("It has to do with burn duration, combustion pressure and geometry of the rotating assembly" is correct btw), you can save yourself some time and just post whatever you are wanting to post from the get-go. But that probably wouldn't make you feel as cool as you were hoping.

Sent from my SGH-M919 using Tapatalk

[kramrs2]

35 deg at the highest load??? That is just insane much timing
What did you have at redline?
This is on 100% Ethanol i guess??

yes, 100%ethanol
about 45o at redline

[Meow]

yes, 100%ethanol
about 45o at redline

bumping an old thread with this but holy fuck... 35 degrees at peak load and 45 at redline!!!??!!!!!! you are nuts.

[the dog]

Will get some data this time using my TFX cylinder pressure monitoring system to see at what deg. and how much pressure we have , and post them here....