want cheap race gas, 1:5 VP M5:94 octane here's the logs at 29 PSI (pic)

[ZimbutheMonkey]

So I finally got around to buying some more VP M5 Methanol to mix w pump gas. I used a 5:1 ratio of 94 octane and M5. I did two pulls, the first set here was at 25 PSI, the second was at 29 PSI (this is on a 60-1 T3/T4 in case anyone is wondering)

Timing was set at 25 degrees advance and I added 7% fueling to my pump gas tune. Although you can see a tiny bit of pull, the timing stayed dead flat at 25 degrees advance at ambient temps of 23C. I could probably get away with 30 degrees timing if I wanted to. Not bad for a grand total of about $1.80-$2.00 or so per liter as far as I'm concerned. (94 octane itself is about $1.25 per liter here)

Here's the log at 25 and 29 PSI w the M5. See the timing flat at 25 degrees in 2nd and 3rd gear
http://i379.photobucket.com/albums/oo238/tlillo1/mycarisfast.jpg

Here's a log at 29 PSI on my pump gas tune timing drops to 15-10 degrees in 3rd gear
http://i379.photobucket.com/albums/oo238/tlillo1/pulljul2829PSI26degambient.jpg

[h3o]

i still mix tolene(sp?), mystery oil, and premium gas for my race gas. dont know what octane but i know i can run a higher afr without pre detonation. tolene is about $10 a gallon so for 6 gallons its about $35 (gas is now $4.20 a gallon for 91). and that is comparble to the c16 i used to run at $8 a gallon 2 years ago i have no idea what it is now.

[M-Hood]

Just so everyone is clear, he is able to run massive amounts of timing because he is at a very high elevation. The higher the elevation the more timing you can run because the air density is thinner. He would not be able to run this amount of timing at sea level and would have to start decreasing the amount of timing as he comes down in elevation.



h3o - C16 is up around $12-$16+ depending on where you get it, but no matter how much toluene you add in you will never get a 117 octane mix and you really shouldn't run more then a 10% mix of it into pump gas. There really isn't anything equal to running straight 117 octane race gas. You will be lucky to get 100 octane when mixing toluene with pump gas, I used to do that and then switched to 104-105 octane unleaded race gas which made more power, then switched to running 110 octane leaded race gas and then 117 octane Q16 which actually made a huge difference to the 110.

[ricekikr]

Just so everyone is clear, he is able to run massive amounts of timing because he is at a very high elevation.

Ahhhhh.... Wondered why 25deg without timing pull, with methanol+additives(?).


M5:Do you just mix it in your gas tank or do you spray it like regular meth? If mixed, doesn't it separate from the gasoline (float/sink)?

[M-Hood]

Looks like he is mixing it right in the tank at a 1:5 ratio, so basically 1 gallon methanol to 5 gallons of 94 octane.


BTW at high elevation 94 is already a pretty high octane, nearly race gas on its own.

[ZimbutheMonkey]

Looks like he is mixing it right in the tank at a 1:5 ratio, so basically 1 gallon methanol to 5 gallons of 94 octane.


BTW at high elevation 94 is already a pretty high octane, nearly race gas on its own.

To confirm, yes, I'm running it 1:5 mixed in tank. As for how much timing I can run at elevation vs sea level, the fact is, I'm running close to more than another 15 degrees advance vs 94 octane (I did some more logs at 27 degrees advance and it held). While the overall number may differ somewhat depending on elevation, the increase itself shouldn't.

Even if you only got another 10 degrees overall at sea level, that's not insignificant. Plus, as you pointed out, I'm getting that extra 15 degrees above and beyond what I'm getting with 94 octane+W/M.

Finally, I may end up being able to run even more advance than 27 degrees. I'm just being careful as I don't want to end up blowing a landing or something nasty like that.

Fact is, the car's faster with the M5. If not because of the timing, the other reason being is that the M5 is heavily oxygenated with the addition of Nitroparaffins. So the M5 is bringing it's own Oxygen to the combustion process.

I do know for fact that when I dynoed the thing a few years back my old GTRS setup at 19 PSI, I added some M5 with absolutely zero changes to timing or fueling (literally just dumped some in the tank and did a pull) and I picked up 4-5 WHP above and beyond the 220 I had put down on 94 oct+W/M.

I would say that it probably would work really well for you Cali types with that crappy 91 octane that you guys have.

Finally, I'll be able to give you a fairly good idea as to the difference in timing that you'll see at sea level vs elevation. My buddy (Mantis) is going to be going to Vancouver fairly shortly and running it in his S4 while he's down there. So he'll be able to report what kind of a difference he sees in the amount of timing that he can run vs being up here. So that should provide some sort of answer as to the elevation question.

[mysman]

Zimbu, impressive... but why not just tune for E85?

[ZimbutheMonkey]

Zimbu, impressive... but why not just tune for E85?

No can haz here :(

[h3o]

Just so everyone is clear, he is able to run massive amounts of timing because he is at a very high elevation. The higher the elevation the more timing you can run because the air density is thinner. He would not be able to run this amount of timing at sea level and would have to start decreasing the amount of timing as he comes down in elevation.



h3o - C16 is up around $12-$16+ depending on where you get it, but no matter how much toluene you add in you will never get a 117 octane mix and you really shouldn't run more then a 10% mix of it into pump gas. There really isn't anything equal to running straight 117 octane race gas. You will be lucky to get 100 octane when mixing toluene with pump gas, I used to do that and then switched to 104-105 octane unleaded race gas which made more power, then switched to running 110 octane leaded race gas and then 117 octane Q16 which actually made a huge difference to the 110.


totally understand you, not saying it was 116 just saying it was comparable just because my knock count went away and i could run higher afr. Again i only had c16 were i lived im sure i couldve gotten away with 110 or maybe even 104 since i was running still conservative for what i had.

[M-Hood]

To confirm, yes, I'm running it 1:5 mixed in tank. As for how much timing I can run at elevation vs sea level, the fact is, I'm running close to more than another 15 degrees advance vs 94 octane (I did some more logs at 27 degrees advance and it held). While the overall number may differ somewhat depending on elevation, the increase itself shouldn't.

Even if you only got another 10 degrees overall at sea level, that's not insignificant. Plus, as you pointed out, I'm getting that extra 15 degrees above and beyond what I'm getting with 94 octane+W/M.

Finally, I may end up being able to run even more advance than 27 degrees. I'm just being careful as I don't want to end up blowing a landing or something nasty like that.

Fact is, the car's faster with the M5. If not because of the timing, the other reason being is that the M5 is heavily oxygenated with the addition of Nitroparaffins. So the M5 is bringing it's own Oxygen to the combustion process.

I do know for fact that when I dynoed the thing a few years back my old GTRS setup at 19 PSI, I added some M5 with absolutely zero changes to timing or fueling (literally just dumped some in the tank and did a pull) and I picked up 4-5 WHP above and beyond the 220 I had put down on 94 oct+W/M.

I would say that it probably would work really well for you Cali types with that crappy 91 octane that you guys have.

Finally, I'll be able to give you a fairly good idea as to the difference in timing that you'll see at sea level vs elevation. My buddy (Mantis) is going to be going to Vancouver fairly shortly and running it in his S4 while he's down there. So he'll be able to report what kind of a difference he sees in the amount of timing that he can run vs being up here. So that should provide some sort of answer as to the elevation question.


Wasn't saying that your car isn't going to be faster or that you weren't going to be making more power. If your running more timing and more boost of course its going to make more power, if it didn't then there is a huge issue. I was just pointing out the fact about the amount of adv timing so that someone at sea level doesn't try to run the same mount of adv timing and boost with the same fuel mix.

You might want to also point out that methanol is in fact corrosive to a standard fuel system, so it shouldn't be used that often or left in the tank for very long. It also doesn't fully mix with pump gas on its own and usually needs a mixing agent.

Using $42 for a 5 gallon can of M5 and $4.20 per gallon for 91, the 1:5 mix comes to $4.90 a gallon. Cheaper then race gas but then with real race gas you don't have to buy new fuel parts or empty the tank all the time.

[ZimbutheMonkey]

No prob Mike, I get what you're saying about the timing and it's probably not a bad idea to introduce that disclaimer about the sea level vs elevation. I was basically saying that it's probably best to look at the timing increase in terms of gains from pump gas vs an absolute number (i.e. 27 degrees advance)

Regarding the corrosiveness issue, It's not as bad as one would think. I spoke to the North American tech advisor for VP and he said that at the ratios I'm running you'd need to let it sit for weeks or even a month before corrosion became a concern. So running a tank of it for a few days doesn't seem to be a concern.

[M-Hood]

Yes not a problem if they are only going to run that mix for a few days and then run a few tanks of normal gas, but you would not want to keep running that mix for weeks at a time.


Timing increase is going to be possible when ever you increase the octane leevl. Fact is that it has been proven that you can increase the timing more going from CA 91 octane gas to 93 octane gas then you can going from 93 to 100. This is why race cars run the really high octane race fuel so they can run very high amounts of timing with the very high amounts of boost. Will have to look at my timing map but pretty sure I am up in 20's while pushing 32-37psi even at sea level.

[ZimbutheMonkey]

Yes not a problem if they are only going to run that mix for a few days and then run a few tanks of normal gas, but you would not want to keep running that mix for weeks at a time.


Timing increase is going to be possible when ever you increase the octane leevl. Fact is that it has been proven that you can increase the timing more going from CA 91 octane gas to 93 octane gas then you can going from 93 to 100. This is why race cars run the really high octane race fuel so they can run very high amounts of timing with the very high amounts of boost. Will have to look at my timing map but pretty sure I am up in 20's while pushing 32-37psi even at sea level.

Yeah, I don't think I'd be running that stuff for weeks at a time either. But it's fun for a couple of days at a time lol.

But I would be interested to see what you're running for timing. If you have any logs, post them up.

Finally, if you get a chance, maybe give this stuff a shot in your car and see what happens. You have a pretty good idea what Q16 allows for timing vs cali 91 oct. I'd be interested to see what it does in your setup.

[M-Hood]

Yeah, I don't think I'd be running that stuff for weeks at a time either. But it's fun for a couple of days at a time lol.

But I would be interested to see what you're running for timing. If you have any logs, post them up.

Finally, if you get a chance, maybe give this stuff a shot in your car and see what happens. You have a pretty good idea what Q16 allows for timing vs cali 91 oct. I'd be interested to see what it does in your setup.

Thing is that I haven't even pushed the timing on my Q16 tune. It is just my 110 tune with the fueling adjusted and only 3 degs added across the board which I did my self the day I went to the track to test out my Hoosier drag radials and ended up blowing up my clutch because the car was making more power then it had ever made. Even when I put my car on my friends dyno he kept telling me I needed to add way more timing from 6k-8500 since it wasn't really taking advantage of the Q16 fuel.

91 really sucks and even cars with BT's cant really run all that much timing or all that much boost, which is why the tuners here suggest lowering the CR. To give you an idea, on a B6 with a GT3076r there was a 59whp difference between the car running 91 and it running 93 octane with both pushing just less then 25 psi.


Once I put my car back together(transmission is down) I will get all of the timing map info out of the IIC.

[ZimbutheMonkey]

Sucks that you guys have to use that 91 oct cali swill gas :( I'd be pissed off if I did a 2.0 liter build to help spool a bigger turbo and then had to drop my compression to 8.5:1. Yeah you'd still be making more power, but I assume you loose a good portion of your spool to the compression drop.

[M-Hood]

Sucks that you guys have to use that 91 oct cali swill gas :( I'd be pissed off if I did a 2.0 liter build to help spool a bigger turbo and then had to drop my compression to 8.5:1. Yeah you'd still be making more power, but I assume you loose a good portion of your spool to the compression drop.


Well I haven't used it since 2006 and you only loose spool time when dropping the CR if you cant adv the timing. More compression = less timing and less compression = more timing.