How to power 8 speakers and a sub

[AnthraciteA4]

Okay so I have a 2004 A6 s-line. It has the Bose setup, factory navigation and satellite radio. I bought the custom door panels and hidden subwoofer box from the infamous 5speed6. So I have 2 midrange woofers and a tweeter in each front door, and a 2way speaker (haven't purchased yet) in the rear. Then I have a single 10" subwoofer in the trunk.

I don't know how to the wire tweeters into the mix. Do they need their own channel, or do I wire them in with the mid woofers like in a home theater speaker?

I was looking at buying an Alpine PDX4.100 and an Alpine PDX-5 then selling off my MB Quart amp that I already have. I just want to make sure I can wrap my head around the install before I go spending money on amps and such. Its going to be such a sweet setup that I want to make sure I do it right.

[earthtodan]

What is the reason for two mids in each door?

You can cross over the tweeters passive by wiring them in parallel (not inline) with the mids, and with an inline capacitor as a high pass filter, but that is just bare minimum for proper functionality. I would urge you to run active with the tweeters on their own channels. This will also require some sort of processing for the crossover points that is not built into the PDX amps.

I also encourage you to wire the rear speakers on a separate 2-channel amp with a switch in the center console going to the remote wire so that you can turn off the rear speakers when you don't have rear passengers.

[naiku]

Edit: Dan pretty much beat me to it! I did not even notice the 2 mids per door. If you have 2 mids and a tweeter in each door, unless you are trying to run a 3 way active front stage, its somewhat pointless.

I see you have not already bought rear speakers, before you do, try it without them. You could then bridge channels 1+2 and 3+4 to run the front speakers, and channel 5 for the subwoofer on the PDX5.

[AnthraciteA4]

http://img252.imageshack.us/img252/3538/driverssidesk9.jpg
http://img267.imageshack.us/img267/3306/passengerdoorcompleteta7.jpg
I purchased the door panels and sub box pre-made. When I get home, I'll make a list of the various components I currently have.

Here is a paraphrased explanation of what he did what he did:
"Let me first discuss my goals before anyone starts to wonder "why would you want to do this to your car?".

For starters, the factory front speaker location only hold a 5¼" driver (while the rear is a 6½").

By nature, I enjoy a wide variety of music, and consider myself an AUDIophile (love that play on words). Over the years I have competed in autosound competitions with other vehicles. This was NOT for loudness or SPL (Sound Pressure Levels) but for sound clarity and imaging. This is achieved by a balance of using the right equipment, speakers and speaker placement.

When you listen to music (either in your home, or live), the sound comes from in front of you. My goal was to achieve the majority of frequencies of sound from the front, and rely as little as possible from the subs in the back. The use of the dual 6½" drivers that you will see is a major part of achieving that goal. These drivers respond `fast' and will be able to play down `low'. (Plus I love good, strong midbass). The separate midrange drivers used, will allow me to distribute the frequencies more precisely. In addition, I will be adding 31 bands of digital equalization.

Here is the detailed buildup on the front door speakers."
http://img374.imageshack.us/img374/4130/speakerhousingok9.jpg
The rest of the description was for the speakers he used in the setup, which I do not have.

[AnthraciteA4]

So its actually 3 speakers per door plus a tweeter and a sub, and then possibly rear speakers.

[earthtodan]

Ah, I didn't realize you had 5 1/4 up front. Those door panel inserts look like they add a lot of potential. Will you be mounting the speakers to the doors or the cards?

If you can post your proposed wiring diagram, we can help you dial it. Do you have a plan for DSP?

[naiku]

In order to have that set up working properly, you are going to need some kind of processor. Will be easier to figure out what you should do once you list the speakers you have, but I would skip the rear speakers.

[AnthraciteA4]

I have MB Quart PWE 100 (http://www.sonicelectronix.com/item_7912_MB-Quart-PWE-100.html) (4" midrange) and 2 sets of MB Quart QSC 164 (http://www.ebay.com/itm/QSC-164-MB-QUART-2-6-5-MIDS-BASS-2-CROSSOVERS-AD-SPEAKER-SET-CLEAR-SOUND-/110728828670) (6.5" mid bass woofers with cross overs) and a MB Quart Premium PAB 1200.1D (http://www.sonicelectronix.com/item_10140_MB-Quart-PAB-1200.1D.html)

[AnthraciteA4]

The door panel inserts are attached to the door card (obviously) and the speakers mount to the insert. I have been looking at the Pioneer AVIC Z series head units but I haven't given any thought to a signal processor or EQ beyond what's integrated into the headunit.

[naiku]

I would sell one of those sets of QSC 164 speakers, and pick up a set of tweeters. The speakers you have max out at 7.8KHz, you need something that goes up to 20KHz+ otherwise your music will sound like its missing something. Dan might be able to help you pick out some tweeters that work with the other speakers. You are also going to want to seal and deaden the doors to get the most out of the QSC 164's.

The Avic Z series is not going to be able to EQ a 3 way front stage. Keep your factory NAV and add a DSP, there are lots of options out there, I think Dan uses an Audison Bit.One, I plan to use a JBL MS8 (have used an Alpine H650).

[AnthraciteA4]

Oh. I forgot that I have 1" MB Quart tweeters too. I just don't know the model number since I don't have the box.

[naiku]

OK cool, I would still sell one set of the QSC-164's, as you don't really have a need for them. Use the money they bring towards a DSP. I would keep the mono amp that you already have, and look for either a 6 channel or a pair of 4 channels to run the door speakers. (use one to power tweeters and mid-range, and another bridged to power the mid bass).

[AnthraciteA4]

My factory navi is the useless joystick kind. The AVIC-Z has a hard drive so I could skip worrying about ipod integration and such. Otherwise I have a 32gb 4th gen ipod touch that I need to add to the system somehow and find a way to control it from its home in the the glovebox/trunk/etc.

Honestly I think I'm in WAY over my head in this whole mess.

[AnthraciteA4]

OK cool, I would still sell one set of the QSC-164's, as you don't really have a need for them. Use the money they bring towards a DSP. I would keep the mono amp that you already have, and look for either a 6 channel or a pair of 4 channels to run the door speakers. (use one to power tweeters and mid-range, and another bridged to power the mid bass).

My idea was to pick up the PDX4.100 and the PDX-5. PDX4 powers all 4 of the QSC mid bass. The PDX5 does the 4" mid, tweeters and sub. Sell the MB Quart mono and the Hifonics that I already have to recoup some of my expenses. The sheer size of the MB Quart is discouraging since I'm trying to keep the setup as stealth as possible (aside from the door cards). I will never need 600 watts RMS at 4ohms for a single 10" sub especially in a .75 cubic foot enclosure.

[earthtodan]

Yeah you're getting in over your head, but once you learn to swim the rewards will pay off. I'm headed out for the weekend, so I won't be able to post back for a few days, but don't get discouraged! A JBL MS-8 and a sub amp will take care of everything you need to do, check out this. http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/diyma-sq-forum-technical-advanced/8257-jbls-ms-8-processor.html
It will take care of all the tuning for you.

[naiku]

Yeah you're getting in over your head, but once you learn to swim the rewards will pay off.

Agreed, once you get it working a 3 way front stage will sound great.

[AnthraciteA4]

I'm obviously not the expert, but it comes down to a matter of preference.
I don't want to keep the factory head unit and navigation. To be honest I don't really need navigation or a built in hard drive. I have a smart phone and a 32gb ipod.

I don't want to keep the MB Quart amp as part of my system. It is much too big. I can fit both Alpine PDX amps in the space needed to mount the MB Quart.

I want to keep the second set of QSC mid bass woofers. The hole is there, and I know being mounted to the door cards make it more of an open air setup, but since I will never get close to what the speakers are worth I may as well use them.

As far as the headunit, I'm not really picky. I do want some sort of bluetooth integration with my Android phone so I can make hands free calls and such. Other than that, I am totally open to suggestions.

I don't have a DSP in mind, and everything I've looked at seems to be aimed toward integration with factory stereo equipment. The JBL MS-8 (aside from being $500) is perfect as long as I'm still buying the PDX amps ($400 for both). 20 watts RMS x8 isn't enough to power the midbass woofers.


The necessity of a DSP to get everything to play nice is really whats killing me right now. As it is, I'll have 9-11 speakers, 2 amps, a DSP, and a head unit which may or may not have external modules for satellite radio, HD radio, bluetooth, and ipod integration.

This whole thing is far beyond my original scope of 4 amplified speakers, a subwoofer, and an aftermarket DVD navigation deck. I don't want to half ass anything, but I'm looking at a money pit that I can't make any progress in because everything is interdependent.

[AnthraciteA4]

With that said, If I DO get it setup right I'm sure it will sound stellar, and I'd be proud to bring it to any car show/meet. I will just need to cash in my change to buy gas to get there since I'll be broke.

[AnthraciteA4]

Pulling the trigger on at least the PDX-5. I'm getting a GREAT deal on it. Now I just need to find a new home for my MB Quart PAB 1200.1D and the Hifonics BXi608. eBay FTL!

[AnthraciteA4]

Update!!!
I've decided to integrate the amps and such to play nice with my factory symphony II for now. There isn't a headunit I can find that could handle my setup by itself anyway. So the plan is to atleast get everything integrated and installed so I can enjoy it rather than store things in my office.

So my question is: Does anyone have a recommendation for a DSP that doesn't have a built in amp. I love the idea of the JBL-MS8's ability to tune itself with some microphones (kinda like Yamaha YPAO) but I don't need the 8 channel amp that's built in or the remote display. I just need something that can handle dealing with 2 amps, 8 speakers, 1 sub and has an aux input for my ipod/android phone.

Right now I'm looking at the Alpine PXA - H100 and the PXE - H660. Like I said, I like the idea of the processor doing some/all the tuning for me.

[AnthraciteA4]

If I can pick up a JL Audio CleanSweep and CL-SSI for around $75 locally, should I buy it and use it for my DSP?

[naiku]

I would still go with the MS8, you don't need to use the built in amplifier, and once its configured you don't need the display to be plugged in either.

[earthtodan]

Update!!!
I've decided to integrate the amps and such to play nice with my factory symphony II for now. There isn't a headunit I can find that could handle my setup by itself anyway. So the plan is to atleast get everything integrated and installed so I can enjoy it rather than store things in my office.

So my question is: Does anyone have a recommendation for a DSP that doesn't have a built in amp. I love the idea of the JBL-MS8's ability to tune itself with some microphones (kinda like Yamaha YPAO) but I don't need the 8 channel amp that's built in or the remote display. I just need something that can handle dealing with 2 amps, 8 speakers, 1 sub and has an aux input for my ipod/android phone.

Right now I'm looking at the Alpine PXA - H100 and the PXE - H660. Like I said, I like the idea of the processor doing some/all the tuning for me.

There aren't a lot of DSPs on the market, so you're going to end up with something with more features than you need. It's not necessarily a bad thing except for the extra size. Most good DSPs give you 8 channels and with the number of speakers you have, you could really take advantage of that. Yeah it's silly that they give you tiny-ass amps, it's for people who are plugging into a system with stock speakers and not changing anything else.

Not all auto-tunes are the same. Alpine's Imprint is old and gets mixed reviews. JBL's offering is new and is far more advanced than anything on the market, and gets almost universally great reviews. It's not just an auto EQ, it does tricks with time alignment and phase that tweak your stage height using top-secret psychoacoustic tricks. Then you can play with your own tune on top of that. I don't know this from firsthand experience because I'm a die-hard DIY tuner and I will never use one, but I did hear a car with it once and I thought it sounded pretty good.

If you want a DSP with no built-in amp, other units to look at are the Audiocontrol DQL-8 and Audison BitOne.

[AnthraciteA4]

Well I just picked up the JL Audio Clean Sweep CL441dsp and CL-SSI for $75. I don't think its hoss enough to handle 8 speakers. It only puts out 4 channels. I'm sure I could cut some corners to make it work, but that's not what I'm going for. I strayed away from the MS-8 because it had more than I needed and the price. Surprisingly the Audiocontrol and Audison both cost more than the MS-8.

I am going to try and sell the MB Quart Premium 1200.1D, the Hifonics BXi608 and any of the other random stuff I have lying around. Doing this the right way is seriously cutting into my performance parts budget.

[earthtodan]

All the good DSPs list for $800. Where did you find the JBL for $500?
There are a few other DSPs on the horizon that look promising and may be cheaper if you're willing to wait for an unknown release date.

[swoardrider]

Boy o'boy, do you have a lot of options.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe the 2004 A6 OEM audio/navigation system is the RNS-E??
My experience is with a 2006 A4, running the OEM RNS-E, and DC Zapco amps. Ironically before that was a Land Rover with a MB Quart/ Jl Audio set up consisting of the add-on mid bass.
Assuming you have the OEM RNS-E head unit, I can think of probably 5 or more different scenarios you can do. Some fairly easy, and some very complicated. Everything of course depends on your level of sound quality vs price. It sounds like you are looking for the easiest system to do, so I will give you my 2 cents on the easy way.
Since you've chosen to use the OEM RNS-E, I hate to say it, but you just waisted money the CL441 and the SSI. All the DSP processing of your Bose system is in the Bose amp. The RNS-E puts out a fairly flat, clean signal. All you have to do is take the RNS-E out puts, and splice RCAs into them. This gives you 4 low voltage level inputs into your amp of choice. Here's the rub. You have no DSP processing other than the shitty bass and treble controls of the RNS-E. You really need some form of equalization to sound right. So, you could either buy a preamp DSP, or get an amp with built-in DSP. For this reason, I chose the DC Reference series amps from Zapco. You can control the amp parameters and equalization via laptop for precise tuning. I'm sure there are cheaper options out there as well like the Kenwood KAC-X4R.

Here's my top 4 ideas in oder of ease vs. sound quality vs price. I've included a section of your MB Quart manual at the bottom of this post to show how to hook up the front stage:

1. One Zapco DC 1000.4 amp - Run all the front stage off of amp channels 1 and 2 in 2 ohm stereo (2x250 watts), run 3and 4 amp channels bridged into the sub at 4 ohms (1x250 watts). I'd leave it at this, but if you must run rear door speakers for fill, stick with the stock speakers on the stock Bose amp. This is what I did, but I can still fade the rear speakers in and out because the Zapco amp's signal is being fed only by the front RNS-E low level outputs. If cost is a factor, replace the Zapco with something like the X4R or similar, but sound quality will suffer due to lesser quality and less power. Many lower quality amps may not handle 2 ohm loads well, so be cautious.

2. One Zapco DC 650.6 plus one Zapco DC200.1 - on the 650.6, run the mids and tweets off of channels 1 and 2. Midbass sets off channels 3 thru 6. Everything will then run 6x50 watts at 4 ohms. Run DC200.1 at 4 ohms bridged mono at 205 watts. Again run stocks rear Bose for fill. (my favorite scenario here, but not cheap!)

3. 2 Zapco DC 360.4 - (amp 1) run mids and tweets on channel 1 and 2 (2x50 watts at 4 ohms). Run 1 set of midbass off of channels 3 and 4 (2x50 watts at 4 ohms). (amp 2) run 2nd midbass set off of channels 1 and 2 (2x50 watts at 4 ohms). Bridge channels 3 and 4 to sub (1x180 watts at 4 ohms). Again run stock rear Bose for fill.

4. Run same as option 3 above, but replace one of the 360.4 with a 650.6, and run MB Quart rear speakers off of the extra 2 channels the 650.6 will provide. (essentially what you mentioned you want to do with the Alpine amps, but those don't have any tuning capability)

I'm using the Zapco line as an example, because I know the line well, but any amp line will work, depending on budget vs sound quality vs ease of installation. I haven't found a better on board DSP than the DC reference series, plus the Symbolink system Zapco uses allows the flexibility of only running one or 2 small signal cables from the front of the car to the back, as opposed to a bunch of large RCA cables. With option 1 above, you could literally run 1 small black cable to source your amp with a clean, strong signal that repels noise intrusion.

Good Luck!
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7005/6805913257_6f205e9a26_b.jpg

[naiku]

All the good DSPs list for $800. Where did you find the JBL for $500?

Amazon has the JBL for $560 I think, and while I am not sure if its still working, Sonicelectronic were selling it for $460.

[AnthraciteA4]

Buy.com has them for $535 with free shipping and Amazon has them for $540 and its Prime eligible so I can get it overnighted for an extra $4.

[AnthraciteA4]

I am not the best communicator. I am really more hands on, and I explain through demonstration. I don't think I've been able to accurately convey what's going on in my head about this setup in one post. I am going to TRY and do it in this one.

I have the following parts and pieces for my install:
1 pair MB Quart PTE25 1" tweeters
1 pair MB Quart PWE100 4" mid range speakers
2 sets of MB Quart QSC-164 6.5" mid bass woofers
2 sets of crossovers from the QSC-164 kit
1 MB Quart RWE254 10" subwoofer
1 custom fiberglass subwoofer enclosure
1 MB Quart PAB1200.1D mono block amplifier
1 Hifonics BXi608 mono block amplifier
1 Alpine PDX-5 5 channel amplifier
1 JL Audio Clean Sweep CL441dsp DSP
1 JL Audio CL-SSI signal summing interface for the JL CleanSweep
2 custom door panels with holes for 2 6.5" speakers 1 4" speaker and 1 1" tweeter
1 Audi Symphony II factory stereo with satellite radio and MMI navigation (the joy stick kind that takes CDs not DVDs)

My plan is to obviously install the various speakers in their respective locations in the front door panels. I'm going to use the Alpine PDX-5 to power the 4" mid range, tweeters and subwoofer. Then I am going to buy an Alpine PDX 4.100 to power the 6.5" mid bass woofers. I am going to install them both in the spot previously designated for the MB Quart 1200.1D because they are just that small. I plan to negate the rear door speakers entirely.

I am going to sell the JL Audio CleanSweep DSP and SSI for well more than the $75 I paid for it (so its can go from a loss to a profit). I am going to sell the MB Quart 1200.1D and the Hifonics BXi608 (new in box) and use the money from these three items to purchase some sort of DSP. Right now I am leaning very heavily toward the JBL MS-8 which I can pick up for $500 brand new off eBay. Although from an aesthetics and size stand point I like the Audison BitOne.

I still plan to change out the Symphony II for something else (EVENTUALLY). I want to keep the option of satellite radio, but add the option for things like HD radio, hands free calling, ipod hook up and control, and better navigation. In my mind this is pointing me toward an aftermarket unit like the AVIC Z series or something comparable from Alpine, Eclipse etc. But in the meantime I would like to get these audio pieces out of my office and into my car so I can start enjoying them.

So my understanding is that I will be taking the wires that were going to the Bose amp(s) and feeding them to the DSP instead. The DSP will give me RCA pre outs that I'll feed to the amps. Then I will run wiring from the amps to the speakers. If I'm using a DSP like the MS-8 will I still need the crossovers that were included in the QSC-164 kit? When I replace the headunit I will just wire the adapter that comes with it to the factory wiring, so once the system is in place, I should only have to mess with THAT section of it... right?

Should I run 0ga to a distribution block and then 4 ga to each amp and 8 ga to the DSP or can I get by with distributing a 4 ga wire to multiple amps? What gauge wire should I run to the speakers? The PDX 4.100 puts out 100watts RMS and will be my most powerful source (aside from the 300 watts RMS that's going to the subwoofer).

[swoardrider]

I still plan to change out the Symphony II for something else (EVENTUALLY). I want to keep the option of satellite radio, but add the option for things like HD radio, hands free calling, ipod hook up and control, and better navigation. In my mind this is pointing me toward an aftermarket unit like the AVIC Z series or something comparable from Alpine, Eclipse etc. But in the meantime I would like to get these audio pieces out of my office and into my car so I can start enjoying them.

So my understanding is that I will be taking the wires that were going to the Bose amp(s) and feeding them to the DSP instead. The DSP will give me RCA pre outs that I'll feed to the amps. Then I will run wiring from the amps to the speakers. If I'm using a DSP like the MS-8 will I still need the crossovers that were included in the QSC-164 kit? When I replace the headunit I will just wire the adapter that comes with it to the factory wiring, so once the system is in place, I should only have to mess with THAT section of it... right?

Sounds like you are pretty set on the Alpine amps, which I agree are good amps for various reasons. I'm just not super keen on D class amps for sound quality. No need for a Bit One or MS-8. You may as well stay in the Alpine line, and get the PXE-H660: http://vault.alpine-usa.com/products/documents/OM_PXE-H660.pdf. In lame terms, this will give you; Symphony H/U to 4 sets of RCA 4volt outputs without making your own RCAs (perfect for what u want to do with all those amp channels and speakers), multiple DSP functions, including automatic sound tuning via microphone, and and simple aux input for the iPod, and it can be controlled via remote controller or laptop. All for the low low price of only $225 online.

[AnthraciteA4]

Not all auto-tunes are the same. Alpine's Imprint is old and gets mixed reviews. JBL's offering is new and is far more advanced than anything on the market, and gets almost universally great reviews. It's not just an auto EQ, it does tricks with time alignment and phase that tweak your stage height using top-secret psychoacoustic tricks.

I'm not looking to do this half-assed. Easy and cheap isn't exactly what I'm going for, but I am a total novice as far as tuning things for myself. So an auto-tune type system is going to help me make sure I do it right. I don't need it easy, I just need it CORRECT.

I'm going to work on selling the extra stuff I have, and see where that gets me. I'll pick up the PDX 4.100 and see what's left over. I'm trying to fight two fires at once. I'm trying to lay the foundation to skip straight to a stage 2 tune, and I'm trying to get all this audio stuff installed properly. I'm waiting to hear back from Concentric 190 about his exhaust. If I don't hear back soon, I'm going to give up and I can use the money I have set aside for it.

[naiku]

Sounds like you are pretty set on the Alpine amps, which I agree are good amps for various reasons. I'm just not super keen on D class amps for sound quality. No need for a Bit One or MS-8. You may as well stay in the Alpine line, and get the PXE-H660: http://vault.alpine-usa.com/products/documents/OM_PXE-H660.pdf. In lame terms, this will give you; Symphony H/U to 4 sets of RCA 4volt outputs without making your own RCAs (perfect for what u want to do with all those amp channels and speakers), multiple DSP functions, including automatic sound tuning via microphone, and and simple aux input for the iPod, and it can be controlled via remote controller or laptop. All for the low low price of only $225 online.

For the average listener, most people are not going to be able to tell the difference between a Class D or a Class AB amp. Especially with modern class D amps. The PXE-H660 is not going to be a good solution here, it cannot handle a 3 way set up. I used to have a PXE-H650, while it was great, it can only handle a 2 way plus sub. The H660 is much the same.

I think the Bit One is going to be too hands on for what AnthraciteA4 is looking for, which leaves the MS8 as the best solution. It is also auto tuning via microphone, and has an aux in.

[earthtodan]

I have the following parts and pieces for my install:
2 sets of crossovers from the QSC-164 kit

If I'm using a DSP like the MS-8 will I still need the crossovers that were included in the QSC-164 kit?

No, ditch the passive crossovers, for several reasons.

- With a DSP you will have enough channels to tune & time align all your speakers individually.

- You have mismatched quantities, which means the impedance will change if you hook them all up at the same time.

The passive crossovers are meant to power one woofer, one mid, one tweet, each at about 4 ohms. If you hook up two woofers in parallel, they will become a 2-ohm channel. That's fine for your amp but it will screw up the levels if you use the passive xover. You definitely want to hook those two woofers up in parallel by using jumpers from one to the next, because running extra speaker wires into the door is extremely difficult.

[AnthraciteA4]

So my understanding is that I will be taking the wires that were going to the Bose amp(s) and feeding them to the DSP instead. The DSP will give me RCA pre outs that I'll feed to the amps. Then I will run wiring from the amps to the speakers. If I'm using a DSP like the MS-8 will I still need the crossovers that were included in the QSC-164 kit? When I replace the headunit I will just wire the adapter that comes with it to the factory wiring, so once the system is in place, I should only have to mess with THAT section of it... right?

Should I run 0ga to a distribution block and then 4 ga to each amp and 8 ga to the DSP or can I get by with distributing a 4 ga wire to multiple amps? What gauge wire should I run to the speakers? The PDX 4.100 puts out 100watts RMS and will be my most powerful source (aside from the 300 watts RMS that's going to the subwoofer).

Once I figure out what wiring I'll need I will have a pretty concrete list of what I need to buy. Now I just need to liquidate some assets so I can buy it all.

[earthtodan]

You're essentially running a 7 channel system, and unless you use only 1 of each driver on each side, you can't use your passive crossovers, so you'll need 7 amp channels. You've got 5 channels planned. I think the easiest way to discuss it is to draw it out and post it. I like to do this in MS Paint.

You can also simplify your install if you use a 7-channel amp like this one. http://www.ebay.com/itm/Zapco-i5100-7-7-channel-Amplifier-1500-Watt-/280815345900
It's kind of expensive, but you can find them cheaper used. I have one running the bench system in my garage. It will save you the hassle of a distribution block and reduce the likelihood of ground loop noise. You can power the DSP by jumping a small fused wire from the power terminal of the amp, because it can be run off a 5A fuse with a small wire. You can buy more power by getting multiple amps, but this is a still a solid option.

Also, how are you planning to mount everything? Since you have a sedan, check out my install thread for an amp rack idea. Jump to post #58. http://www.audizine.com/forum/showthread.php/402581-My-stereo-build-(with-plenty-of-photos)

[AnthraciteA4]

You're essentially running a 7 channel system, and unless you use only 1 of each driver on each side, you can't use your passive crossovers, so you'll need 7 amp channels. You've got 5 channels planned. I think the easiest way to discuss it is to draw it out and post it. I like to do this in MS Paint.

You can also simplify your install if you use a 7-channel amp like this one. http://www.ebay.com/itm/Zapco-i5100-7-7-channel-Amplifier-1500-Watt-/280815345900
It's kind of expensive, but you can find them cheaper used. I have one running the bench system in my garage. It will save you the hassle of a distribution block and reduce the likelihood of ground loop noise. You can power the DSP by jumping a small fused wire from the power terminal of the amp, because it can be run off a 5A fuse with a small wire. You can buy more power by getting multiple amps, but this is a still a solid option.

Also, how are you planning to mount everything? Since you have a sedan, check out my install thread for an amp rack idea. Jump to post #58. http://www.audizine.com/forum/showthread.php/402581-My-stereo-build-(with-plenty-of-photos)

I still plan to buy a PDX 4.100 so powering all the channels is taken care of. I didn't want to use the passive crossovers anyway. I didn't know where I would try and hide them. As far as the mounting, one of my friends is a sign fabricator at AdCon, so he does a lot of aluminum work. He's building me a rack. I'll post pictures once its built. I have this (http://forums.audiworld.com/showthread.php?p=15372161) to fall back on if I don't like how it turns out. Its similar to yours except its more serviceable but doesn't do nearly as well hiding the wires.

As far as the wiring diagram, I think its pretty straight forward. My biggest hang up was how to wire the passive crossover. Now that I'm negating the rear door speakers and not using the passive crossovers this install got alot easier to visualize for me.

[earthtodan]

Oh I see, you do have plenty of amp channels. I wasn't reading it right.

[AnthraciteA4]

Managed to sell the MB Quart. Putting the money toward the PDX4.100 should have it within the week. I made an offer on a new MS-8 on ebay. I'm prepared to pay full price, but if I can save a couple $$ I'm going to try.

[naiku]

Make an offer on one at sonicelectronix.com, I made an offer last night of $450, and it came back as saying too low, but they would accept an offer of $493.

[AnthraciteA4]

I'll keep that in mind. Thanks

[swoardrider]

For the average listener, most people are not going to be able to tell the difference between a Class D or a Class AB amp. Especially with modern class D amps. The PXE-H660 is not going to be a good solution here, it cannot handle a 3 way set up. I used to have a PXE-H650, while it was great, it can only handle a 2 way plus sub. The H660 is much the same.

I think the Bit One is going to be too hands on for what AnthraciteA4 is looking for, which leaves the MS8 as the best solution. It is also auto tuning via microphone, and has an aux in.

You are correct. I was insinuating using the PXE-H660 in conjunction with the passive crossover network (see my post #26 above for diagram) for the front stage. I have used the add-on midbass system from Quart for the last 8 years (and will never use again! Only 3-way that I've ever heard sound good is the Dynaudio) . I have tried to run them actively, and could never get them to sound right. Now maybe the MS-8 can deliver some magic on running everything active, (I've never used one), but it seemed to me like the Quarts always liked running their passive crossover network. As you can see from the #26 post diagram, they wire the crossovers crazy, so that a 1"tweet and 4" mid, mated to a 6.4" midbass yields 4 ohms, yet if you just run the 1" and 4" on their crossover, without the add-a-midbass 6.5", it still runs at 4 ohms. (still haven't figured that one out!) That's why my #1 recommendation is still to run a Zapco DC Reference 1000.4, run it 2 ohms to the front stage in stereo using the Quart supplied passive crossover network off of the front half of the amp, run the sub bridged off of the back half, use the on board DSP of the amp for tuning, and be done with it.
I'm not trying to be an ass, but in SQ, 90% of SQ gurus will tell you that less is more. 2 Amps, 9 channels, an MS-8, and a gazzilion RCAs, speaker wires, power wires, etc, sound like a pretty big nightmare to me. The odds of introducing ground loop noise is fairly high when running the stock Symphony H/U. The whole reason I run the Zapco stuff with the Symbiink is because of an old Audi enthusiast that went by the name of Avincar here on AZ/ Audiworld (Avincar, as in Avincar Sound of Portland, OR). He owned a high end stereo shop as well as an A3 and other various Audis. He has had terrible noise issues using the stock H/U mated to aftermarket amps over the years.
Can better sound be had with the MS-8?? Maybe yes, maybe no. For me, I'd take a proven world class SQ A/B amp like Zapco with a built in fan to mount it just about anywhere, over 2 D class amps anyday. I'd take 500 (2x250) real, clean, watts, and turn the gains down to drive those front 8 speakers. Then take 500 real, clean, watts to power that sub, and again turn the gains down.
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7010/6475571879_7a2d7f863f_z.jpg

[naiku]

You are correct. I was insinuating using the PXE-H660 in conjunction with the passive crossover network (see my post #26 above for diagram) for the front stage.

That might work, but he would need another crossover for the mids/tweets, and would have to set the mid-bass as the rear channels on the H660, and then hope that the auto-tune would get everything working correctly. The Zapco may actually be the simplest solution.



I'm not trying to be an ass, but in SQ, 90% of SQ gurus will tell you that less is more. 2 Amps, 9 channels, an MS-8, and a gazzilion RCAs, speaker wires, power wires, etc, sound like a pretty big nightmare to me.

I agree on the wiring headache, I hate how my wiring looks in the trunk, but there is not a whole lot I can do with it since its all needed. I keep debating selling both my amps, and picking up a single 5 channel instead, but I know I won't get enough out of selling my amps to pick up a good enough 5 channel.


The odds of introducing ground loop noise is fairly high when running the stock Symphony H/U. The whole reason I run the Zapco stuff with the Symbiink is because of an old Audi enthusiast that went by the name of Avincar here on AZ/ Audiworld (Avincar, as in Avincar Sound of Portland, OR). He owned a high end stereo shop as well as an A3 and other various Audis. He has had terrible noise issues using the stock H/U mated to aftermarket amps over the years.

Pretty sure I have read some of Avincar's posts, but I have never had any ground loop noise using my Symphony HU though, and that's using various different configurations.

[earthtodan]

I'm not trying to be an ass, but in SQ, 90% of SQ gurus will tell you that less is more. 2 Amps, 9 channels, an MS-8, and a gazzilion RCAs, speaker wires, power wires, etc, sound like a pretty big nightmare to me. The odds of introducing ground loop noise is fairly high when running the stock Symphony H/U. The whole reason I run the Zapco stuff with the Symbiink is because of an old Audi enthusiast that went by the name of Avincar here on AZ/ Audiworld (Avincar, as in Avincar Sound of Portland, OR). He owned a high end stereo shop as well as an A3 and other various Audis. He has had terrible noise issues using the stock H/U mated to aftermarket amps over the years.
Can better sound be had with the MS-8?? Maybe yes, maybe no. For me, I'd take a proven world class SQ A/B amp like Zapco with a built in fan to mount it just about anywhere, over 2 D class amps anyday.
Sliced another way, you could argue that 90% of SQ is in the tune, and from that perspective the DC Ref is not the best solution. For background for those reading this thread, the Zapco DC Reference series has DSP built into each amp that you control with a 1/2 DIN external unit. It's a top quality setup but like any DSP, tuning yourself is an art and a science. Anthracite says he doesn't want to take on a big tuning project, and let's admit, tuning is never done. So I think an auto-tune is a must from this perspective, and the complication of having lots of speakers makes this even more true.

[swoardrider]

Sliced another way, you could argue that 90% of SQ is in the tune, and from that perspective the DC Ref is not the best solution. For background for those reading this thread, the Zapco DC Reference series has DSP built into each amp that you control with a 1/2 DIN external unit. It's a top quality setup but like any DSP, tuning yourself is an art and a science. Anthracite says he doesn't want to take on a big tuning project, and let's admit, tuning is never done. So I think an auto-tune is a must from this perspective, and the complication of having lots of speakers makes this even more true.

No, no, no! You control the DC amps via laptop and software! Yes, a high percentage of SQ is in the tune. That's why the software is so great. It's easy to use. Just sit in the driver's seat with a laptop and tune away. No jumping from the trunk to the cab anymore! I'm not nearly as knowledgable as you are when it comes to tuning, plus my ears are shot, but it took me maybe an hour of tinkering on the laptop to understand the software and get my car sounding decent. It is by far the most straight forward DSP design I have seen to date. Even though you don't have a DC amp, you can still play around with the software in "sample mode". Download it and try it: http://thepiratebay.se/torrent/4682101

http://www.the12volt.com/installbay/uploads/zapco1.jpg

Now if only Zapco would make an iPad app for the software!

[AnthraciteA4]

I appreciate all the input, but the fact is I've always liked the PDX series amps. Class D vs Class A/B.... Its still going to blow the Bose system that came in the car out of the water. I was able to pick up the PDX5 for $175, the PDX 4 for $185, and I can get the MS-8 for $470. Yes its more expensive than a Zapco amp, but I already bought them.

If I was designing this system from the ground up, I would have NEVER gone with the 3 way stage, but once again I got an AMAZING deal on the components. I started this thread out of fear of where to hide the passive crossovers and how to wire them properly. If I'd communicated better from the start, my problems could have all been solved with the phrase "JBL MS-8".

Long story short is it's going to sound F'n great. I'm going to love it. Thank you to everyone involved. I will take lots of pictures when I do the install, and I'll make a thread about it so you can all see what you've helped create.

[naiku]

Where did you get a PDX5 for only $175?

[AnthraciteA4]

Where did you get a PDX5 for only $175?

Locally. I also managed to sell my MB Quart 1200.1D for $200

[earthtodan]

No, no, no! You control the DC amps via laptop and software! Yes, a high percentage of SQ is in the tune. That's why the software is so great. It's easy to use. Just sit in the driver's seat with a laptop and tune away. No jumping from the trunk to the cab anymore! I'm not nearly as knowledgable as you are when it comes to tuning, plus my ears are shot, but it took me maybe an hour of tinkering on the laptop to understand the software and get my car sounding decent. It is by far the most straight forward DSP design I have seen to date. Even though you don't have a DC amp, you can still play around with the software in "sample mode". Download it and try it: http://thepiratebay.se/torrent/4682101

http://www.the12volt.com/installbay/uploads/zapco1.jpg

Now if only Zapco would make an iPad app for the software!

Yes I love the Zapco interface too (and I hate the interface on my BitOne) but my point is not whether the software is easy to use; you still have to tune it yourself. The OP's goal is to create great sound all at once and call it a day, and not make a continuing project out of it while driving around for weeks with a work in progress. It takes endless time and tweaking to match gains, adjust active crossover points, develop an ear for tuning and set the EQ and delays on your own, and it can be pretty frustrating. Zapco amps and DSP are a beautiful thing, but they don't tune themselves.

[AnthraciteA4]

I picked up the MS-8 and the PDX4.100. Now I just need to wait for them to arrive. They'll both be here by this time next week. I'm going to make a thread of the install from start to finish.

[AnthraciteA4]

The MS-8 arrived today. Brand new for $470 shipped from Infiniti Electronics. I like it better than what I had pictured in my head. Once the Alpine amps arrive I'll start the build thread. I don't know how much progress I'll make with it being so f'n cold out, but it's a step in the right direction. I still have to wait for my friend to finish fabbing my amp rack.

[naiku]

Good luck, make sure to keep us updated with the progress. I installed my MS8 last night, and while it requires some tweaking (and a new center channel) it sounds incredible.