BT Injector solution

[DRAKLORE]

Today I had an epiphany, most everyone knows that mazdas been using FSI technology and we are
Not alone in that realm.
My point is, there are Mazda fsi running 800+ whp... They have obviously found a fueling solution as stated by John a hpfpupgrade. Is there a possible way to run a mazda higher cc fsi injector in our motor. I'm talking a company that is willing to sell a billet sleeve kit to adapt the port in our head for a Mazda injector, or a possible way to bore out the injector port and sleeve...
Any insight would be much appreciated. :-)

[mr shickadance]

talked to my buddy about this, apparently what has been going on is that they have been modifying their fuel rail to flow more....i'll talk to them, their hpfp's are the exact same as ours but they don't run a cam follower its pretty strange, we have very similar engines to the mazda lineup

[DRAKLORE]

Maybe what their doing, we can do? It's gotta be possible

[CorneliusRox]

There is a whole line of fuel rails you can jump to, they just arent made for our engines and you would have to run steel high pressure lines afterwards. Also, blocking off the return at the end of it (litterally throwing a plug in) will get you an extra bit of pressure.

And as for different injectors, just get your hands on one of them, then rip your head off, then go around to local machine shops and tell them what you need done (make this injector fit in this hole). Tell them it has to be precission work and you will get a quote. Chances are, they will get it very close with the machines, then have them pollish the taper, and tell them there is no room for error so take their time and do it right. If they accept, they are liable for the head if they ruin it.

Anyways, it isnt as hard as you would think. We have done this to fit John Deere tractor injectors into a 5.9 CR Cummins diesel. Much much easier then any of us were expecting.

[mr shickadance]

what kind of plug would you need to cap off something that runs pressure at 1800 ?? not discounting your idea bc at this point we need everything we got, but im just wondering for direct injection since the pressure is so insanely higher

[DRAKLORE]

we need some of the tuning and manufacturers to chime in on this thread...

[CorneliusRox]

what kind of plug would you need to cap off something that runs pressure at 1800 ?? not discounting your idea bc at this point we need everything we got, but im just wondering for direct injection since the pressure is so insanely higher

Well, coming from the diesel world (owned a few cummins, worked for cummins on the QSK19 turbo system), 1800 is nothing. The standard for diesel now (dont quote me) is 34000 psi in the rail at all times. It is amazingly higher than gas. That is because emmissions havent pushed gas to that point yet. What I am saying is, you could basically throw down some diesel CR parts, change the seals to be gasoline tolorant, and call it a day.

Basically, the higer pressure you can get your fuel, the more it will break apart into droplets, the more surface area you have, the quicker the chemical reaction, the more mechanical energy absorbed, the more HP. You also need the fuel for this. I am not sure what our cars are set up like but I know that some do 8 hole nozzels and shoot 5 shots per every 'pre CR' one.

[CorneliusRox]

Fuel rail and lines (just plug 2 of them): http://lansing.craigslist.org/pts/2546822779.html
Injection Pump: http://cincinnati.craigslist.org/pts/2481010455.html
fuel pump: http://athensga.craigslist.org/pts/2506965093.html

all for diesel and would have to be converted, but you get the idea.

basically $1000 for the whole system that blows anything I have seen on here away.
I am waiting for someone to tell me why this isnt a good idea. lol

[DRAKLORE]

I thought our issue was the Injectors? are you guys saying we need to upgrade the fuel rail as well?

[CorneliusRox]

well you can ship injectors out to get the nozzles hones to suite whatever you want for volum size (obviously not more than what is safe to hone it too). but higher rail pressure will do the same thing

[A4 Centaur]

Hey, coming from Bosio 520 nozzles on my Jetta Tdi monster, the "common rail" on the ALH engines (99--05) were 54 bar? That is like 40,000+ PSI?

The solution you speak of is certainly in either nozzles that are already produced or possibly in conjunction with using a higher PSI/ BAR in a common rail set up? I would imagine that controlling that would be the hard part. The RS8 nozzles would be a good start. I could have sworn I saw on here a guy who had an idea for aftermarket nozzles, used already in another application. The chip tuners would have a field day tuning a monster idea like this!

The one problem I had with the larger nozzles was getting my Alligator Chip to work with the Bosio Nozzles. That has to be coordinated in advance to minimize fouling the plugs, or even failing to run at all?

She smoked like a beast!! But made TONS of torque and a bit more HP on a K03 turbo.

[mr shickadance]

I thought our issue was the Injectors? are you guys saying we need to upgrade the fuel rail as well?

Ms3's that hit the numbers u posted all have modified fuel rails

[DRAKLORE]

I'm going to look at trying to get my hands on a set of MS3 BT injectors and modified fuel rail...
Are they modifying the OE fuel rail? And if so what exactly are they doing to it.?

[mr shickadance]

I'm going to look at trying to get my hands on a set of MS3 BT injectors and modified fuel rail...
Are they modifying the OE fuel rail? And if so what exactly are they doing to it.?

I need to check before i go saying something i shouldnt but they are boring out the rail... Again i THIIIIINK thats what they do

[CorneliusRox]

I need to check before i go saying something i shouldnt but they are boring out the rail... Again i THIIIIINK thats what they do

hmm that sounds scary. The average gas CR is not designed for that pressure. The good CR's are made of something called CGI which is the same as cast iron but it is processed different and makes it 70% stronger. New engine blocks from BMW, a few from VW, and all the semi's are using it. Very cool stuff.

[CorneliusRox]

Hey, coming from Bosio 520 nozzles on my Jetta Tdi monster, the "common rail" on the ALH engines (99--05) were 54 bar? That is like 40,000+ PSI?

The solution you speak of is certainly in either nozzles that are already produced or possibly in conjunction with using a higher PSI/ BAR in a common rail set up? I would imagine that controlling that would be the hard part. The RS8 nozzles would be a good start. I could have sworn I saw on here a guy who had an idea for aftermarket nozzles, used already in another application. The chip tuners would have a field day tuning a monster idea like this!

The one problem I had with the larger nozzles was getting my Alligator Chip to work with the Bosio Nozzles. That has to be coordinated in advance to minimize fouling the plugs, or even failing to run at all?

She smoked like a beast!! But made TONS of torque and a bit more HP on a K03 turbo.

I totally forgot about the TDI, there is a pretty good chance that the injectors would fit. Companies have a tendency to keep tapers. I ahve some injectors out of a Cummins QSK19 (19L HHP engine) and they fit in my 5.9 Cummins. Saving them for a rainy day.

But I bet you could use a lot of TDi parts, and all you would have to do is bring them to an injection shop and have them swap the seals. I would also recommend putting a larger pulley on the injection pump since they are lubricated by the fuel and diesel is a better lubricant than gasoline so the bigger wheel would slow down the pumps and give slightly less pressure. Not a bad thing in this case.

[DRAKLORE]

VAG fsi injectors-
http://www.goapr.com/images/20ts3_injectors.jpg
VW TDI injectors-
http://www.volkswagenspares.com/UserFiles/Image/vw%20audi%20pd%20tdi%20injector%20(Custom).jpg
http://www.langleyvw.ca/tech/img/pd_injector_unit.gif
Mazdaspeed 3 injectors
http://www.maperformance.com/products/deatschwerks_Evox-1000cc.jpg

Looking at the Mazda injectors. I think it would be relatively simple to bore out the opening to fit those, almost to simple. They even look to be about the same height. The TDI look incredibly difficult because they require some sort of injection pump to run them???

[CorneliusRox]

Wow... TDI's use some old effin Tech. Cam driven injectors... wow. Are you sure that is even CR? The whole idea behind common rail (other than high pressure at low RPM) is the electronic injector aspect that lets you do multiple shots. Mechanical injectors allows you to run a p-pump which is Awesome for higher RPM applications, just not as great at lower RPM's.

anyways, I think that would be tough. Looks like the mazda heads are thin walled for that to work. Just look through a bunch of other diesel applications. No performance companies actually make injectors, they just modify them, so if you are running an injector that is modified at twice its OEM pressure, I bet it will leak and there is no way around that.


On another note, you guys should look at active injection (sometimes referred to as amplified injection), it uses high common rail pressures but also have a very strong solenoid that shoots a plunger down to squeeze even higher pressures at the nozzle. Bosch is always coming out with the new designs so even just call up a rep if you are serious about it.

[mr shickadance]

I need to check before i go saying something i shouldnt but they are boring out the rail... Again i THIIIIINK thats what they do

Checked with the ms3 guys

I was wrong basically thwy have no fueling issues beyond the hpfp upgrade, people run gt35's with the stock injecties with no issues

The ms3 injectors would make sense but would you need a file that accepts it? For example the rs4's and s3's need tbe acceptable file for the ecu to recognize them and idk how a non vag part would work but i dont know much about the vag system

Oh yea sry abootthe shitty spelling i is on an iphone

[CorneliusRox]

That is a good point. you would definitely have to find out what voltage they run. I would guess 48V but idk for sure. Then I am sure they read different so you would have to figure out what the car outputs, what closed/open resistance on the injectors are, and then do some code editing.

[DRAKLORE]

An injector is an injector, just as you tune for an rs4 injector. Is imagine you just tune for it's impedance and a pulse... It's been a really long time since I've learned about that's stuff, I guess we'd need some input from a tuner how difficult it would be. Also how bog of a cc difference these ms3 guys have over our rs4 injectors which I believe iirc are 480cc...

[mr shickadance]

thats another thing, with ms3 they are sitting around 500whp but are running into issues, not with fueling or anything like what we experience i think their block is pretty fragile, especially since they deal with a very high amount of torque, but there is not a lot of info on fueling for the ms3 guys only bc they have not hit that road block yet....

[martin0079]

Hey, coming from Bosio 520 nozzles on my Jetta Tdi monster, the "common rail" on the ALH engines (99--05) were 54 bar? That is like 40,000+ PSI?

The solution you speak of is certainly in either nozzles that are already produced or possibly in conjunction with using a higher PSI/ BAR in a common rail set up? I would imagine that controlling that would be the hard part. The RS8 nozzles would be a good start. I could have sworn I saw on here a guy who had an idea for aftermarket nozzles, used already in another application. The chip tuners would have a field day tuning a monster idea like this!

The one problem I had with the larger nozzles was getting my Alligator Chip to work with the Bosio Nozzles. That has to be coordinated in advance to minimize fouling the plugs, or even failing to run at all?

She smoked like a beast!! But made TONS of torque and a bit more HP on a K03 turbo.

54 BAR is only ~793 psi the B7 engine runs 110 to 120 BAR on the stock pump if I am not mistaken 1595-1740 and the aftermarket is 125 to 130 Bar 1812-1885 jus so you are aware 1Bar is ~14.5 psi

[A4 Centaur]

Hey, sorry the Bar was :1,800 bar/26,000 psi.

Pumpe Duse (Unit injector is dead) as of 2007

http://www.autoblog.com/2005/10/20/vw-says-goodbye-to-tdi-hello-to-common-rail/

[lIRATIl]

I feel like 034 or APR would love to take on a project like this

[arisgti]

No performance companies actually make injectors, they just modify them, so if you are running an injector that is modified at twice its OEM pressure, I bet it will leak and there is no way around that.


Hgp turbo modified the oem injectors with the currently -oem spray pattent but is very expensive.1980 euros for brand news and 1580 euro for modify yours.
http://hgp-turbo.de/vw/golf6r20.html
I email to them and they reply to me this:
"" Good morning Aris,
thank your for your inquiry.
These are always the original injectors we change, not RS4 injectors.
For the small price, you have to send your injectors to us and we modifies them.
For higher price, you became new injectors with for example 40% more injector
volume, then you can realize ca. 500hp but therefor you need a high pressure pump.
(You cannot use the original).
Hope you understand, what i wrote.
Regards, Ute Gräf ""

Apr makes excacly the same to their kits.They modify the oem injectors.
My opinion is that we must find a company to modify-big porting our injectors.
Some companies porting diesel injectors.Why not a fsi injectors?

[Lensch09]

PM Me. I'm the Quality Engineer for the company that supplies John Deere Engine Works (Waterloo, Iowa, makes all of the "big" engines for JD) with all of their fueling solutions (pumps, injectors, filters, you name it). I'm just about to start the same discussion with my friend that is the Senior QE for Bosch NA.

The pictures of the injector for the old TDI show it as a mechanical injector...This is obviously NOT the case with ours. What I'm wondering is this:

Why hasn't someone thrown out the piece of shit HPFP that's in our cars and causes all sorts of problems and replaced it with a dedicated gear/chain driven unit? There are hundreds if not thousands of gear driven pumps on the market that would most definitely provide us with the adequate amount of pressure to do whatever the hell we want. Most if not all of them are diesel pumps but WHO cares? Fuel is fuel after a few tweaks to convert it to gas. Also, I'm sure it would take some fab to install a gear driven pump, but if you're shooting for these types of horsepower numbers wouldn't that kind of come with the territory?
-Dan

[A4 Centaur]

Hey, Are there any electric fuel pumps (Walbro) that can handle some higher PSI ratings than our pumps?

One trick at Tdi Club.com was to use an aftermarket pump in to replace the crappy "in-tank" pump.

[DRAKLORE]

How big are these chain driven units? Would we be able to put a chain gear where there hpfp lobe is? And then make an adapter plate off of the stock location hpfp. Also can these be belt driven? I'm assuming they are louder than our current hpfp and and probably have more parisitic draw on the motor?

[audi8844]

How big are these chain driven units? Would we be able to put a chain gear where there hpfp lobe is? And then make an adapter plate off of the stock location hpfp. Also can these be belt driven? I'm assuming they are louder than our current hpfp and and probably have more parisitic draw on the motor?

I feel like the chain driven would be much more reliable. There would be some serious design that would have to go into this to dial it in correctly for proper flow at any given rpm, but that's always a consideration. This would be a wonderful alternative to the cam follower. Plus the chain driven is in constant and equal contact with the gears, so the friction isn't wearing down the components like the follower does

[audi8844]

Sorry double post...

[CorneliusRox]

PM Me. I'm the Quality Engineer for the company that supplies John Deere Engine Works (Waterloo, Iowa, makes all of the "big" engines for JD) with all of their fueling solutions (pumps, injectors, filters, you name it). I'm just about to start the same discussion with my friend that is the Senior QE for Bosch NA.

The pictures of the injector for the old TDI show it as a mechanical injector...This is obviously NOT the case with ours. What I'm wondering is this:

Why hasn't someone thrown out the piece of shit HPFP that's in our cars and causes all sorts of problems and replaced it with a dedicated gear/chain driven unit? There are hundreds if not thousands of gear driven pumps on the market that would most definitely provide us with the adequate amount of pressure to do whatever the hell we want. Most if not all of them are diesel pumps but WHO cares? Fuel is fuel after a few tweaks to convert it to gas. Also, I'm sure it would take some fab to install a gear driven pump, but if you're shooting for these types of horsepower numbers wouldn't that kind of come with the territory?
-Dan

You do know this is exactly what I have been saying correct? lol

[Charles]

I would think the most efficient solution would be to use our stock injectors and modify them. What about a place like RC engineering? Honestly, looking at the MS3 injectors, they look nothing like ours and you'd have to do a buttload of work to the head to get those to fit.

[viziers]

Those Ms3 injectors are not DI Injectors BTW!




vizi

[CorneliusRox]

Those Ms3 injectors are not DI Injectors BTW!


vizi

You just blew my mind. lol I feel stupid now. I was wondering why they would require such a thin walled head.


And as for price, I am sure modding our injectors is probably the easiest solution, but you are limited. Like always you pay to play and if you are going big, you have to get comfortable with "no going back" situations (like major head machining). If you want to go big in one step, buy some common rail diesel stuff, have it changed to gas, and buy some head studs too because you'll need them. Be warned that being the first, you will NO MATTER WHAT, run into issues (leaking, bad injectors, etc...).

Good luck!

[swoardrider]

OK peeps, let's all come back down to earth now.
This thread is starting to sound like The Riley Martin Show.

We all know that the OEM fuel system sucks. We all know it could have been designed ten times better than it was. And we all know that there are like ten different directions they could have gone to provide a more reliable design. But the truth is that nobody is going to R&D and produce a completely different way this engine pumps high PSI fuel for literaly a few hundred drag/dyno queens on the entire face of the planet. H2O Sport's follower solution and an APR-like HPFP is about as good as we are going to get, design wise, for our engine. The only two cost effective ways I see fixing the psi problem is either improving the OEM design (currently already done) or maybe someday an industrial company will find a magic way to invent a cheap 2000psi electric pump.

Same goes with injectors. Why would you spend 1600 Euros to modify an old stock injector? Why would you drill out holes in a perfectly good $2000 head to fit a Mazda part, that the ECU will freak out on? Just buy the Bosch Motorsports for $1200 a piece and tattoo "gotta pay to play" on your palms [headbang]

[mr shickadance]

Those Ms3 injectors are not DI Injectors BTW!




vizi

the MS3 is a direct injection engine

[mr shickadance]

Those Ms3 injectors are not DI Injectors BTW!




vizi

the MS3 is a direct injection engine

[mr shickadance]

and the bosch injectors i thought were non existant

[viziers]

and the bosch injectors i thought were non existant

From what i was told from Bosch is they as long as you want to pay for the manufacturing and R&D they will make you whatever spec DI Injector you want.


Scott are you positive that is a DI Injector as the ones I looked at on Google images were different..




vizi

[Lensch09]

How big are these chain driven units? Would we be able to put a chain gear where there hpfp lobe is? And then make an adapter plate off of the stock location hpfp. Also can these be belt driven? I'm assuming they are louder than our current hpfp and and probably have more parisitic draw on the motor?

I would imagine parasitic loss would be comparable or less on a chain driven pump. Reason for this is that it is contant tension. There will not be the ups and downs that you would generally see with a lobe driven pump. They are about the same size as an alternator on smaller applications. The new BMWs use a chain driven HPFP and if Audi is smart, it will only be a matter of time before they follow suit.

At this time there is not a variable rate electonic HPFP (at least for fueling applications)

The issue is that there is not a return line in our fueling system. It would take quite a bit of engineering to get a chain driven pump to work on our cars. That being said, I'm sure it could be done, the main question would be, where in the hell would you put the thing? If I were doing I would choose to have a sprocket coming off of the crank. Basically the entire front portion of the engine needs to be re-engineered...Honestly, looking at some of these guys and the crazy amount of $$ and time they have put into their turbo kits suprises me that no one has gone this route...

Now...if someone could design an electronic HPFP and patent that son of a bitch, they would REALLY be in the money
-Dan

[mr shickadance]

2.3 direct injection spark ignition (DISI) im like 90% sure they use a direct injection system, i know for a fact that APR and auto tech supplies the upgraded HPFP's for the stage 2 and 3 ms3's i mean it is literally the exact same pump, the base is a little different, but hitachi makes the same pump and internals

what is odd tho.....MS3's do not have cam followers.....i think they use a roller but not 100%

[CorneliusRox]

OK peeps, let's all come back down to earth now.
This thread is starting to sound like The Riley Martin Show.

We all know that the OEM fuel system sucks. We all know it could have been designed ten times better than it was. And we all know that there are like ten different directions they could have gone to provide a more reliable design. But the truth is that nobody is going to R&D and produce a completely different way this engine pumps high PSI fuel for literaly a few hundred drag/dyno queens on the entire face of the planet. H2O Sport's follower solution and an APR-like HPFP is about as good as we are going to get, design wise, for our engine. The only two cost effective ways I see fixing the psi problem is either improving the OEM design (currently already done) or maybe someday an industrial company will find a magic way to invent a cheap 2000psi electric pump.

Same goes with injectors. Why would you spend 1600 Euros to modify an old stock injector? Why would you drill out holes in a perfectly good $2000 head to fit a Mazda part, that the ECU will freak out on? Just buy the Bosch Motorsports for $1200 a piece and tattoo "gotta pay to play" on your palms [headbang]


Nobody is bad mouthing VW? They want more fuel and pressure and nobody is really talking about the 1600 euro option. We are basically brainstorming cheap alternatives that would suit any fueling need. Saying come back down to eath doesnt make sense because the fuel rail and lines would be an instant swap (for cheap), The pump would take a bracket, seal swap, and some custom lines, and yes, injectors would require head modification, but all of this combines is not going to be the $1200/injector price. closer to $2000. So a $2000 real life solution to all a heavy modders fueling needs is not some crazy concept. Just combining technologies from different side of the world...

[mr shickadance]

here is an idea that has not been talked about

there is a group buy on vortex right now for an aluminum manifold, they will custom make these manifold and they have a model that features two spots that can fit a 5th or 6th injector in, not too mention a tap for water/meth

by implementing a 5th or possibly 6th injector i think that would be all the fueling we would need

the manifold right now costs around 1200
the injectors would be closer to around 100 (not direct injectors)
the fuel pump would be (i have no idea)
and then tuning i supposed to accomodate the stand alone 5th and 6th injector.....


but would that be an easier option....not really cost effective but another option that has not been talked about

[CorneliusRox]

here is an idea that has not been talked about

there is a group buy on vortex right now for an aluminum manifold, they will custom make these manifold and they have a model that features two spots that can fit a 5th or 6th injector in, not too mention a tap for water/meth

by implementing a 5th or possibly 6th injector i think that would be all the fueling we would need

the manifold right now costs around 1200
the injectors would be closer to around 100 (not direct injectors)
the fuel pump would be (i have no idea)
and then tuning i supposed to accomodate the stand alone 5th and 6th injector.....


but would that be an easier option....not really cost effective but another option that has not been talked about


That's a good idea. Arctic Cat (snowmobiles) has a design (that they dont use yet I dont think) for their 2-Strokes where they use DI and then a second injector goines with the crankcase oil and in through the intake valves. This is not a bad idea by any means. Definitely an interesting one

[mr shickadance]

i know people are running a 5th injector....but i dont know how, but i think the manifold that had the spots would certainly make it easier to try it

[CorneliusRox]

i know people are running a 5th injector....but i dont know how, but i think the manifold that had the spots would certainly make it easier to try it

I'm sure just on the end of the intake manifold and the air flowing into the cyl probably pulls the fuel vapor

[viziers]

Dimitris is running a 5th injector... i'm sure he will chime in soon!



Personally im going to see what 4 port direct injected meth will do and then go from there as I have a decent lead on drums of 100% Meth....





vizi

[hpfpupgrade]

Hgp turbo modified the oem injectors with the currently -oem spray pattent but is very expensive.1980 euros for brand news and 1580 euro for modify yours.
http://hgp-turbo.de/vw/golf6r20.html
I email to them and they reply to me this:
"" Good morning Aris,
thank your for your inquiry.
These are always the original injectors we change, not RS4 injectors.
For the small price, you have to send your injectors to us and we modifies them.
For higher price, you became new injectors with for example 40% more injector
volume, then you can realize ca. 500hp but therefor you need a high pressure pump.
(You cannot use the original).
Hope you understand, what i wrote.
Regards, Ute Gräf ""

Apr makes excacly the same to their kits.They modify the oem injectors.
My opinion is that we must find a company to modify-big porting our injectors.
Some companies porting diesel injectors.Why not a fsi injectors?

You can find new injectors for your car, they are just "very" expensive. We will have a direct injectors (direct replacement) injector ready soon, how soon... I don't know. I had to build an injector test stand (pat pending) so we can modify the OEM units and then flow them. No independent shop has a way to flow injectors at this time, all the bigger company's (bosch, stadadyne, Hitachi, Mistsu, ect) have custom injector testing options for high pressure, these normally cost millions of dollars. Our test stand was built from our fuel pump test/dyno bench (seemed logical to build on what we already had). How much will the injectors be? No idea, how long before we have a solution, no idea. We are working on it and working hard to find a solution for the DI market.

Porting injectors for the diesel market is easy, there is lots of room. Porting injectors for the gas market... not so easy. There is very little room to work with in the OEM DI market injectors.


Hey, Are there any electric fuel pumps (Walbro) that can handle some higher PSI ratings than our pumps?

One trick at Tdi Club.com was to use an aftermarket pump in to replace the crappy "in-tank" pump.

No, there are no electric fuel pumps that can deliver the volume and the pressure needed for the application. Well, I should say that there are none that would fit under the hood or work with the 12 volt system on the car.


I feel like the chain driven would be much more reliable. There would be some serious design that would have to go into this to dial it in correctly for proper flow at any given rpm, but that's always a consideration. This would be a wonderful alternative to the cam follower. Plus the chain driven is in constant and equal contact with the gears, so the friction isn't wearing down the components like the follower does

Chain driven would be an option, problem being... you would end up spending $3500 for something like this. You would have to move the fuel lines, pump location, drive assembly, chain, gear, housing, ect ect ect. In the end you would end up spending 4 x what an upgraded fuel pump costs and still only have the pressure of the OEM pump and you still have the restriction of the OEM injectors. We have addressed the follower issue and wear will not be a concern for much longer.


I would think the most efficient solution would be to use our stock injectors and modify them. What about a place like RC engineering? Honestly, looking at the MS3 injectors, they look nothing like ours and you'd have to do a buttload of work to the head to get those to fit.

Yes, that is the best solution and cheapest. Problem being... you need to verify flow and spray pattern at the proper pressure levels... this is a problem for most company's because they don't have access to a 2000 + psi injector flow center. This is why we build our own injector flow station.


Those Ms3 injectors are not DI Injectors BTW!

vizi

Good eye! Yes, those were not MS3 injectors.

[hpfpupgrade]

2.3 direct injection spark ignition (DISI) im like 90% sure they use a direct injection system, i know for a fact that APR and auto tech supplies the upgraded HPFP's for the stage 2 and 3 ms3's i mean it is literally the exact same pump, the base is a little different, but hitachi makes the same pump and internals

what is odd tho.....MS3's do not have cam followers.....i think they use a roller but not 100%

Yes, they use a direct injection system. Yes they have a cam follower, they have a very similar drive to that of the VW... they just don't have the issues with wear. Last, yes APR builds the fuel pumps for CPE (supplier for the Mazda DI market). The pumps themselves are very different yet use the same internals. There are some differences on the inside of the pump as well, but I am not going to go there with this thread (already enough confusion in this thread).


here is an idea that has not been talked about

there is a group buy on vortex right now for an aluminum manifold, they will custom make these manifold and they have a model that features two spots that can fit a 5th or 6th injector in, not too mention a tap for water/meth

by implementing a 5th or possibly 6th injector i think that would be all the fueling we would need

the manifold right now costs around 1200
the injectors would be closer to around 100 (not direct injectors)
the fuel pump would be (i have no idea)
and then tuning i supposed to accomodate the stand alone 5th and 6th injector.....


but would that be an easier option....not really cost effective but another option that has not been talked about

Meth injection... done! If you want more fueling, get a good meth kit, run 80/20 mix (more meth) and you will have your second injector. Problem with running an actual 4th or 5th injector is you will be pulling fuel from the supply line that feeds the high pressure pump and from the intank fuel pump. Its already been stated that the in tank pump cannot supply enough fuel to the high pressure pump, so putting even more load on it or asking more from it is going to end bad. In order to run an actual additional injector, you are going to have to run a completely separate fuel system. You will need, fuel pump, fuel cell, lines, regulator, rail, manifold, ect ect ect. We have looked into this, and trust me... its going to cost $3 to $4k to make something and that is at cost. Right now, meth is your best bet for adding more fuel and it the cheapest option out there.


Dimitris is running a 5th injector... i'm sure he will chime in soon!

Personally im going to see what 4 port direct injected meth will do and then go from there as I have a decent lead on drums of 100% Meth....

vizi

We have a MS3 shop car running on direct port along with a 5 nozzle located up in the upper pipe (just before the t-body). Here is the link to that build http://www.mazdasnw.com/showthread.php?8027-Erich-s-MS3-build-thread&p=226082#post226082. For around $500 you can have additional fuel installed and running just about any car. Meth works very well, just how well... we will soon find out.

[viziers]

Thank you for chiming in! Please keep us updated if at all possible..





vizi

[hpfpupgrade]

Thank you for chiming in! Please keep us updated if at all possible..

vizi

I will do what I can, still looking at becoming a vendor over here... first have to wait for the pumps to come off galactic back order, LOL.

[viziers]

I will do what I can, still looking at becoming a vendor over here... first have to wait for the pumps to come off galactic back order, LOL.


Yes I read that they are on backorder until September or some crazy stuff.....





vizi

[lIRATIl]

I thought additional injectors were a problem due to the fact that tuning a DI engine to run using DI injectors and normal injects would be extremely hard/impossible?

[mr shickadance]

Ms3's have cam followers? I thought they had a roller system, ive never heard of an ms3 blowing a hole in thier cam follower

I dont doubt you im just suprised

[viziers]

I'm waiting to get their 142bar Fuel return valve!




vizi

[DRAKLORE]

When I can I will jump on that train with you Vizi.
Me and you both running DW-300 lpfp, we may have a little more room on the supply side of things. I also am glad that our heads are out of the clouds in this thread for once lol
And sorry about the ms3 injector pic mix up dn you google images lol

[DRAKLORE]

Also wasn't Apr experimenting with modifying S3 injectors?? They couldn't modify the RS4 because they were laser welded shut but the S3 ones were not

[mr shickadance]

i know for a fact that ms3 people are running 100% meth set ups, i would really like to see some tuners step in here and advocate whether or not that is a good idea or a bad one

if you think its a bad idea please provide reasons why, bc honestly running a 100% set up is not the scariest thing in the world, you will not blow up your block or anything you will just increase the octane

essentially it would be like running race gas all the time

[hpfpupgrade]

I thought additional injectors were a problem due to the fact that tuning a DI engine to run using DI injectors and normal injects would be extremely hard/impossible?

They are a problem but a good tuner could tune around them with the DI. You have to take baby steps when tuning with additional fuel on board and you have to make sure that there are no drop offs in fuel pressure or supply on the low side. Its not easy, but a competent tuner should be able to make a meth system work or additional injectors work without to many problems.


Ms3's have cam followers? I thought they had a roller system, ive never heard of an ms3 blowing a hole in thier cam follower

I dont doubt you im just suprised

Yep... if need be I can take a few pictures for you. The do not have a roller system and the ramp of the cam is much more aggressive than that of the VW and Audi pump lobe. You will never hear of a MS3 blowing a hole through the follower because they made them properly.


i know for a fact that ms3 people are running 100% meth set ups, i would really like to see some tuners step in here and advocate whether or not that is a good idea or a bad one

if you think its a bad idea please provide reasons why, bc honestly running a 100% set up is not the scariest thing in the world, you will not blow up your block or anything you will just increase the octane

essentially it would be like running race gas all the time

We have several running 100% meth set ups right now. This is the only way to make power in the upper RPM band. Any car N/A to boosted can benefit from a quality meth kit/install. The DI cars benefit even more, it helps keep the runners clean, the intake valves clean and the intake manifold itself clean. I cannot think of one - or downfall that meth would have on a DI car. The only scary thing about meth would be, if it failed and that is why they make failsafes.

[arisgti]

You can find new injectors for your car, they are just "very" expensive. We will have a direct injectors (direct replacement) injector ready soon, how soon... I don't know. I had to build an injector test stand (pat pending) so we can modify the OEM units and then flow them. No independent shop has a way to flow injectors at this time, all the bigger company's (bosch, stadadyne, Hitachi, Mistsu, ect) have custom injector testing options for high pressure, these normally cost millions of dollars. Our test stand was built from our fuel pump test/dyno bench (seemed logical to build on what we already had). How much will the injectors be? No idea, how long before we have a solution, no idea. We are working on it and working hard to find a solution for the DI market.

Porting injectors for the diesel market is easy, there is lots of room. Porting injectors for the gas market... not so easy. There is very little room to work with in the OEM DI market injectors.




If you make this solution ,i am sure that all planet will buy injectors from you.I almost finish my gtx3071 setup and i was thinking to make a fueling solution with 4 oem s3 fsi injectors(rs4 sucks) and 4 additional injectors with an extra ecu.I will waiting for you 1-2 months..

[CorneliusRox]

is there any advantage to running a Fass fuel pump or anything like that?

[audi8844]

Just throwing this out there, since we are trying to consider all options [:D]

http://www.audizine.com/forum/showthread.php/445053-Don-t-have-enough-fuel-pump-How-about-one-from-a-Veyron!

[swoardrider]

Chain driven would be an option, problem being... you would end up spending $3500 for something like this. You would have to move the fuel lines, pump location, drive assembly, chain, gear, housing, ect ect ect. In the end you would end up spending 4 x what an upgraded fuel pump costs and still only have the pressure of the OEM pump and you still have the restriction of the OEM injectors. We have addressed the follower issue and wear will not be a concern for much longer.

That was my whole point in my previous post. Chain gear driven is a PITA for fabrication and tuning, thus not cost effective.

Are these the mysterious Bosch Motorsport injectors nobody seems to be able to find?? http://www.bosch-motorsport.com/en-US/literature/en-US/onRequest_DataSheet_enUS_T7398960267.pdf

[mr shickadance]

you can find them online, but physically i dont think anyone has seen them

[swoardrider]

you can find them online, but physically i dont think anyone has seen them

I could be wrong, but I believe it is because they are custom made to order. My point above is that they are not some "unicorn". I found them after searching with Google for 5 min. For someone who is going to spend $15k in upgrades to get a 2 liter to 500AWHP, means that money is almost no object. At that point, I don't see why people are bitching about $4800 for injectors.

[mr shickadance]

i can see why hahaha 1200 a pop....forget that

[DRAKLORE]

If these flow testers for rs4 injectors are so hard to come by and so expensive. How do we really know how many cc rs4 injectors really are? I am just wondering of Bosch has even flow tested them and put a definitive number on them? If we're looking to improve something, it would be nice to know the benchmark... Whose to say our injectors are even the problem?

[mr shickadance]

^^ all good questions.....however, its odd that RAI decided to go to a S3 injector for our cars there has to be some reason

[swoardrider]

^^ all good questions.....however, its odd that RAI decided to go to a S3 injector for our cars there has to be some reason

I'm going to take a guess and say the spray pattern. That makes sense to me, seeing that a V8 would most likely need need a different spray pattern than an inline engine would, due to the angle of the cylinders.

[DRAKLORE]

I've talked personally with ray at RAI... The only reason that I'm aware they went with S3 is because they more readily available at the time, and that's what the tune was written for. Now they Are essentially stuck using them.
No one really can say anything definitive about what's better rs4 or s3
All I know is that the 2.0tfsi making more than 350whp are using rs4....

[swoardrider]

I've talked personally with ray at RAI... The only reason that I'm aware they went with S3 is because they more readily available at the time, and that's what the tune was written for. Now they Are essentially stuck using them.
No one really can say anything definitive about what's better rs4 or s3
All I know is that the 2.0tfsi making more than 350whp are using rs4....

Yep, you are right. After reading up on this for the past year on various forums, I've come to the conclusion that the S3 spray pattern is closest to an A4, and is preferred, but the RS4 clearly flows more volume for more power. For anything above a K0R, the RS4 is probably preferred, as it was designed to handle a .525 liter cylinder.

[hpfpupgrade]

If these flow testers for rs4 injectors are so hard to come by and so expensive. How do we really know how many cc rs4 injectors really are? I am just wondering of Bosch has even flow tested them and put a definitive number on them? If we're looking to improve something, it would be nice to know the benchmark... Whose to say our injectors are even the problem?

Yes they have, all the flow results are listed in documents on Bosch's site (it just a pain to navigate through all the BS).

Injectors are the problem, reason being we are running out of time to open and close them. The amount of time a DI motor has to inject fuel is much less than that of a traditional style point injection (above the valve injection). The higher the RPM you run, the less injector you have to spary the motor with. This is why larger injectors are going to be a "MUST" for the really big turbo guys running 8K + RPM.

We all need "bigger" injectors!


I'm going to take a guess and say the spray pattern. That makes sense to me, seeing that a V8 would most likely need need a different spray pattern than an inline engine would, due to the angle of the cylinders.

Ding... winner! Spray pattern is key to making power and getting proper flame path propagation. There is a company that has cut a window inside of a Mazda motor and they took different injectors and sprayed the motor at different boost levels and different fuel pressure levels... you would be amazed at how much the air moves around inside the combustion chamber and the different combustion results that you get with higher or lower fuel pressure levels.

Look at a V8 cly head, then look at a 2.0 cly head... it should be clear that the RS4 injector is not the best option for the FSI platform.


Yep, you are right. After reading up on this for the past year on various forums, I've come to the conclusion that the S3 spray pattern is closest to an A4, and is preferred, but the RS4 clearly flows more volume for more power. For anything above a K0R, the RS4 is probably preferred, as it was designed to handle a .525 liter cylinder.

Correct, the S3 is the better option. Also, I have been told that the new Type R Golf has a higher flowing injector as well, something like 18% more flow. This might become the new upgrade for the FSI guys... I still have to verify this info but from what I have been told... they work wonderful.

[swoardrider]

I have been told that the new Type R Golf has a higher flowing injector as well, something like 18% more flow. This might become the new upgrade for the FSI guys... I still have to verify this info but from what I have been told... they work wonderful.

Perfect, the mothership has landed back down to Earth and everyone can get off now. No more BS about chain drive pumps, modified Mazda messes, etc. Dyno queens problem's are solved. EFR turbo running with type R injectors, hpfpupgrade's stage 3 pump, USP or ASP's lpfp, and internals. Look out Supras, cuz we're coming thru.

Now we can finally get the B7 forum back on track with VMR wheel and LED threads! [:p]

[hpfpupgrade]

i can see why hahaha 1200 a pop....forget that

I have found a company that will take new DI injectors, cut them apart, lazer weld them back together. $500 for the service and you have to provide new injectors, $800 a pop! Its very expensive to get the higher flowing injectors done.... but what are our other options? Its new, its great and the company's that offer the service are going to get the price for the service, in two years when every car is direct injected then we will have more options.

[hpfpupgrade]

Perfect, the mothership has landed back down to Earth and everyone can get off now. No more BS about chain drive pumps, modified Mazda messes, etc. Dyno queens problem's are solved. EFR turbo running with type R injectors, hpfpupgrade's stage 3 pump, USP or ASP's lpfp, and internals. Look out Supras, cuz we're coming thru.

Now we can finally get the B7 forum back on track with VMR wheel and LED threads! [:p]

LOL, OMG that was funny!

No stage 3 pumps just yet, LOL.

I don't know about the Supras but I am sure we can go out and whoop some ass on the EVO and WRX guys!

[viziers]

I have found a company that will take new DI injectors, cut them apart, lazer weld them back together. $500 for the service and you have to provide new injectors, $800 a pop! Its very expensive to get the higher flowing injectors done.... but what are our other options? Its new, its great and the company's that offer the service are going to get the price for the service, in two years when every car is direct injected then we will have more options.


Would you mind pm'ing me the info to the company that can do that and by new DI injectors do you mean the stock B7 A4 DI injectors???




vizi

[viziers]

Also, I have been told that the new Type R Golf has a higher flowing injector as well, something like 18% more flow. This might become the new upgrade for the FSI guys... I still have to verify this info but from what I have been told... they work wonderful.


Would you have any more info on these maybe part numbers???




vizi

[hpfpupgrade]

Would you mind pm'ing me the info to the company that can do that and by new DI injectors do you mean the stock B7 A4 DI injectors???

vizi

I will get that info sent over to you, I just have to dig through all my emails to find it. Yes, they stated that they can do any DI injector upgrade.


Would you have any more info on these maybe part numbers???

vizi

I do not have any additional info, but... I will see what I can come up with for you.

[viziers]

I will get that info sent over to you, I just have to dig through all my emails to find it. Yes, they stated that they can do any DI injector upgrade.



I do not have any additional info, but... I will see what I can come up with for you.


I'm also waiting patiently for when you announce yours so I can scoop them up as quick as I can!!!



vizi

[viziers]

The only thing im a bit fuzzy on is , is it 800 for a new set and 500 per injector modification or 500 for the service and 800 per injector modification???? Sorry I just wanted to be sure..



vizi

[hpfpupgrade]

The only thing im a bit fuzzy on is , is it 800 for a new set and 500 per injector modification or 500 for the service and 800 per injector modification???? Sorry I just wanted to be sure..



vizi

I should have been clear on that... its $500 per injector and you have to provide 4 "brand new" injectors. So, it will be close to $800 + per injector. Yes, it sucks!

[DRAKLORE]

These golf type r injectors... You state 18% more flow.. More flow than what?? Stock/s3/rs4??
And if so how much flow is the rs4/s3/stock... You never stated that. If I were to hand out the $$$ for some injectors I'd want to know this info:-/
Also if s3 is closer to spray pattern, obviously they don't flow very much if an rs4 can produce way more HP with an
"innefficient" design... Just wish their was a little more clarification, because we can all come out and state things, but with nothing to back it up, it just becomes words in a thread...

[mr shickadance]

easy there cowboy, the guy claimed that he had only "heard" about the golf R injectors and had yet to verify anything, it would be a different story if he was just stating things like you said in your post, but even hpfpupgrade clearly stated that they needed to verify the info


i think bottom line is that we just dont know that much about our injectors, and knowing more onformation actually costs more then any of us had anticipated, who knows, perhaps we are all wrong with the rs4 injectors, maybe the 3 injectors are our bread and butter. everyone has their own theories and such but personally, ( and this is 100% my opinion, i have no facts, i have no figures, i have nothing) but i think our problem does not lie in our injectors, but the fuel pump


looking at the graph that APR provides when they make the arguement that the stock hpfp is inefficient, you can clearly see that at certain RPM's our pumps lack the amount of fueling right? i mean thats how they got us to buy their pump in the first place

http://www.goapr.com/includes/img/products/fsi_pump_potential.gif

the same could be said about the upgraded hpfp, granted it flows a shit ton more then stock hpfp, but even at certain HP levels, it will not flow enough fuel

look at apr's stage 3 hp numbers, i mean it comes pretty damn close to that threshold line....and that's only a gt28, imagine how much closer those lines would be if you were to run a gtx35 or even bigger.....i would imagine at a certain point even the HPFP cannot flow enough fuel



then what?

[ladedruck]

2010 997t is 3.8l 6 cylinder 500hp direct injection. might be one to look at next time you are at the injector store.

[Operator]

the same could be said about the upgraded hpfp, granted it flows a shit ton more then stock hpfp, but even at certain HP levels, it will not flow enough fuel

look at apr's stage 3 hp numbers, i mean it comes pretty damn close to that threshold line....and that's only a gt28, imagine how much closer those lines would be if you were to run a gtx35 or even bigger.....i would imagine at a certain point even the HPFP cannot flow enough fuel

then what?

I think that's where the Stage II hpfpupgrade pump comes in.

[DRAKLORE]

Sorry I didn't mean to sound rude, I'm just frustrated with this issue as I'm sure a lot of us are...
First it was hpfp needs upgrading so ok that males sense and we do it, next is injectors.. Quite obvious. rs4 injectors after much debate..check... Next I have my lpfp upgraded because every tuner out there says this is the big hurdle...vast Dw-300 check. :-)
Now it's the check valve.. Makes sense I'm going to have to do it... And still there is uncertainty... That is why I'm pissed. Can no one offer proof that any of this shit is absolutely necessary.. I mean Camc made what 350awhp on stock injectors and tune... And yet we are saying that is the limit for rs4... Now I'm hearing the upstaged hpfp I've got needs upgrading. And the rs4 injectors as well... Lol I just want someone to say "here is the definitive proof" yes I understand why John will tiptoe around that, and the downfalls of stating something that is unclear. It's just seeming to me that because we have these issues with fueling that we are willing to jump on any solution that is offered. Alot of these graphs that show the fuel dying off in the upper rpm range are probably monitoring the same PIDs just to see a general fueling picture yet each tuner/manufacturer is certain its something else..
I'm not complaining or whining about the cost, I just get this feeling we've become a market susceptible to snake oil salesmen because we want a fix so bad. This is not a stab at John or hpfpupgrade at all, I really do agree with the Need to upgrade the rail valve. Just think we need to put our collective minds together for once on this issue..
Shane

[viziers]

Sorry I didn't mean to sound rude, I'm just frustrated with this issue as I'm sure a lot of us are...
First it was hpfp needs upgrading so ok that males sense and we do it, next is injectors.. Quite obvious. rs4 injectors after much debate..check... Next I have my lpfp upgraded because every tuner out there says this is the big hurdle...vast Dw-300 check. :-)
Now it's the check valve.. Makes sense I'm going to have to do it... And still there is uncertainty... That is why I'm pissed. Can no one offer proof that any of this shit is absolutely necessary.. I mean Camc made what 350awhp on stock injectors and tune... And yet we are saying that is the limit for rs4... Now I'm hearing the upstaged hpfp I've got needs upgrading. And the rs4 injectors as well... Lol I just want someone to say "here is the definitive proof" yes I understand why John will tiptoe around that, and the downfalls of stating something that is unclear. It's just seeming to me that because we have these issues with fueling that we are willing to jump on any solution that is offered. Alot of these graphs that show the fuel dying off in the upper rpm range are probably monitoring the same PIDs just to see a general fueling picture yet each tuner/manufacturer is certain its something else..
I'm not complaining or whining about the cost, I just get this feeling we've become a market susceptible to snake oil salesmen because we want a fix so bad. This is not a stab at John or hpfpupgrade at all, I really do agree with the Need to upgrade the rail valve. Just think we need to put our collective minds together for once on this issue..
Shane


If John finds the part number and can toss me a part number i'll gladly purchase them and see if they are indeed better than the Rs4's the one thing that I wonder is the spray pattern to see if they are another srource for us....

Here is the HEP Stage One+ I'm looking to get. It is 960+ shipping for a 5 person GB....

http://i818.photobucket.com/albums/zz106/stefandragnea/SorensenSTG2Mani1.jpg







vizi

[DRAKLORE]

That sure is an impressive intake! Its the first I've heard of these golf injectors, I'm certain that we will soon know more. Doctor has always claimed that their are many fsi in Europe pushing over 500awhp. I'm not sure if it's via 5th injector or what?

[viziers]

That sure is an impressive intake! Its the first I've heard of these golf injectors, I'm certain that we will soon know more. Doctor has always claimed that their are many fsi in Europe pushing over 500awhp. I'm not sure if it's via 5th injector or what?


It is from running the 5th injector...



vizi

[ladedruck]

I don't think they are making 500awhp on 93 octane fuel and stock rev limiters. The thing is you need more fuel and higher octane to run a "safe" 23+psi. The meth is going to help both of those needs.
Also for reference the RS4 runs higher fuel pressure stock then the A4(115-119bar verses 110). If an rs4 needs 8 injectors to make 420hp running 119bar of fuel pressure and leaner afr stock then how is an A4 going to make 400awhp with 4 of them running 110bar fp??? That is 20% more power out of 50% less injector flow capacity and 7.5% lower fuel pressure. I guess you could throw some race gas in it.

[mr shickadance]

Sorry I didn't mean to sound rude, I'm just frustrated with this issue as I'm sure a lot of us are...
First it was hpfp needs upgrading so ok that males sense and we do it, next is injectors.. Quite obvious. rs4 injectors after much debate..check... Next I have my lpfp upgraded because every tuner out there says this is the big hurdle...vast Dw-300 check. :-)
Now it's the check valve.. Makes sense I'm going to have to do it... And still there is uncertainty... That is why I'm pissed. Can no one offer proof that any of this shit is absolutely necessary.. I mean Camc made what 350awhp on stock injectors and tune... And yet we are saying that is the limit for rs4... Now I'm hearing the upstaged hpfp I've got needs upgrading. And the rs4 injectors as well... Lol I just want someone to say "here is the definitive proof" yes I understand why John will tiptoe around that, and the downfalls of stating something that is unclear. It's just seeming to me that because we have these issues with fueling that we are willing to jump on any solution that is offered. Alot of these graphs that show the fuel dying off in the upper rpm range are probably monitoring the same PIDs just to see a general fueling picture yet each tuner/manufacturer is certain its something else..
I'm not complaining or whining about the cost, I just get this feeling we've become a market susceptible to snake oil salesmen because we want a fix so bad. This is not a stab at John or hpfpupgrade at all, I really do agree with the Need to upgrade the rail valve. Just think we need to put our collective minds together for once on this issue..
Shane


i can imagine your frustration, i mean i dont even have the BT parts....i mean dont get me wrong, i would love to go BT and quite frankly i def see it in my future, immediate future? prolly not, im more so looking into a nice little present for myself after busy season (think march) and i know i am frustrated for all the reasons you are saying, but i could not imagine having the parts and everything and STILL not having a solution... must be killing you


im a logic guy, so despite not using exact fact and figures so to speak, "if it looks like fish, swims like a fish, and tastes like a fish.....its prolly a fish" is something i go by

now, we have all seen, heard, or got fuel cuts, so an upgraded HPFP is clearly needed so at least we can all agree on that

here is where I think it gets a little hazy

mazda people have been upgrading their fuel rail and HPFP so i understand the fuel rail thing (bonus that its not 1 million dollars either.....relatively cheap mod)

however, mazda people have been using their stock injectors for applications that touch around 450 even 500 whp.....granted this is not ALL WHEEL, however, those are impressive numbers on stock injectors.....injectors that are eerily similar to the ones we have

so are the injectors the main issue thats my question, i mean if the injector cannot flow enough fuel, wouldn't it show it constantly throughout the RPM? (when the turbo is fully spooled and running) fueling dieing off higher in the RPM range would tell me that not enough fuel was fed to the injectors bc of how fast the fuel was needed......now i may be wrong, but again, take a peek at that graph i posted, thats a GT 28 getting very close to what the upgraded HPFP could flow.....so is it the injectors? or is it the pump?

[DRAKLORE]

So how would we go about upgrading our fuel rail? Would replacing it or boring it ve better

[mr shickadance]

waiting for hpfpupgrade to comment on that....

[eastwick897]

So how would we go about upgrading our fuel rail? Would replacing it or boring it ve better

I doubt that would do anything quite honestly. Since we are running the RS4 injectors it isn't the fuel rail that is impeding us as of now, it is the injector. The fuel rail can deliver more fuel then the RS4 injector can squirt out. It's like hooking up a fire hose to a garden hose sprayer, you are still limited to the amount of water that can pass through the tip.

Back a few posts I read about the idea of us modifying our stock injectors. I think that is probably the best bet, but I have personally had my injectors sent to a specialty injector shop for modification and the guy said he broke several drill bits on the tip. He said they are hardened and quite difficult to modify. Now, can he be lieing... Quite possibly, but considering he could've made some money and didn't I think the guy was pretty up front. We need to find someone with the appropriate tools so we can safely bore out our injectors and flow test them.

[DRAKLORE]

I wish bench testing these wasn't so hard. If you could easily do it, I could see tuning distributors testing thousands of injectors and seeing which ones flow that % more than the others and then selling them for more $$ lol

[mr shickadance]

I doubt that would do anything quite honestly. Since we are running the RS4 injectors it isn't the fuel rail that is impeding us as of now, it is the injector. The fuel rail can deliver more fuel then the RS4 injector can squirt out. It's like hooking up a fire hose to a garden hose sprayer, you are still limited to the amount of water that can pass through the tip.

Back a few posts I read about the idea of us modifying our stock injectors. I think that is probably the best bet, but I have personally had my injectors sent to a specialty injector shop for modification and the guy said he broke several drill bits on the tip. He said they are hardened and quite difficult to modify. Now, can he be lieing... Quite possibly, but considering he could've made some money and didn't I think the guy was pretty up front. We need to find someone with the appropriate tools so we can safely bore out our injectors and flow test them.

i feel like if that was the case wouldn't the rs4 injector not be able to provide enough fuel consistently across the RPM range?

like here is how i picture it going down

engine at 4000 RPMs, the rs4 injectors can handle and spray enough fuel

engine at 6500 RPMs, the rs4 injectors cannot spray enough fuel?.....to me that just does not make sense, it would seem as if not enough fuel was ever getting to the injector in the first place if that was the case


if the rs4 injector did not flow enough wouldn't the injector not be able to supply enough fuel at 4000 rpm and at 6000rpm?? bc the amount of gas squirted into the chamber is not going to change between 4000 and 6000 (i am pulling these numbers out of my pooper) the only difference between 4000, and 6000 is that at 6000 it requires faster fueling

[ladedruck]

you are exactly right though. the window to spray a DI injector at 6k rpms is VERY small. That is why you run out of injector up top and not at 4k.

Eastwick what rail pressure was your car at when you maxed out the injectors???

[DRAKLORE]

you are exactly right though. the window to spray a DI injector at 6k rpms is VERY small. That is why you run out of injector up top and not at 4k.

Eastwick what rail pressure was your car at when you maxed out the injectors???
^ if this were the case than having another set of injectors ready to spray( alongside your primary injectors) in the upper rpm range sounds ideal....

[DRAKLORE]

Jeff, although I don't have a chance in hell getting in on that HEP intake lol but it just looks like sex haha what are the chances they machine it to accept the 70mm TB. Also how does it mount up, the plastic manifold has the rails and lines attached to it? Looks great, what's the normal cost?

[ladedruck]

you say "if this were the case" like it might not be. In rough numbers you can say you have 360degrees of crankshaft rotation to spray a DI injector no matter what the engine speed(now this is just a very rough example because cam and ignition timing are going to shorten that in reality) at 4000rpms it is 15 milliseconds and at 6000 it is only 10. So you only have 2/3 the time to spray fuel in every cycle.

[DRAKLORE]

I understand that yes the timeframe gets very short, but I was more or less questioning the validity of your "this is why you ""run"" out of injector" statement. I'm not doubting your knowlege of this motor or it's components. I just have yet to SEE any proof that it's the injectors or the hpfp or rail... The list is endless.[evilmad]

[eastwick897]

you are exactly right though. the window to spray a DI injector at 6k rpms is VERY small. That is why you run out of injector up top and not at 4k.

Eastwick what rail pressure was your car at when you maxed out the injectors???

I couldn't tell you if I tried, I really don't remember.

[DRAKLORE]

Slimjoker got in at least one dyno run pre detonation lol what were his numbers? He didn't want to publish because it wasn't finalized

[hpfpupgrade]

2010 997t is 3.8l 6 cylinder 500hp direct injection. might be one to look at next time you are at the injector store.

Ding, we are testing these as well as a few others right now. I will not post any info until we are approved as vendors, so hang in there with me guys.


Sorry I didn't mean to sound rude, I'm just frustrated with this issue as I'm sure a lot of us are...
First it was hpfp needs upgrading so ok that males sense and we do it, next is injectors.. Quite obvious. rs4 injectors after much debate..check... Next I have my lpfp upgraded because every tuner out there says this is the big hurdle...vast Dw-300 check. :-)
Now it's the check valve.. Makes sense I'm going to have to do it... And still there is uncertainty... That is why I'm pissed. Can no one offer proof that any of this shit is absolutely necessary.. I mean Camc made what 350awhp on stock injectors and tune... And yet we are saying that is the limit for rs4... Now I'm hearing the upstaged hpfp I've got needs upgrading. And the rs4 injectors as well... Lol I just want someone to say "here is the definitive proof" yes I understand why John will tiptoe around that, and the downfalls of stating something that is unclear. It's just seeming to me that because we have these issues with fueling that we are willing to jump on any solution that is offered. Alot of these graphs that show the fuel dying off in the upper rpm range are probably monitoring the same PIDs just to see a general fueling picture yet each tuner/manufacturer is certain its something else..
I'm not complaining or whining about the cost, I just get this feeling we've become a market susceptible to snake oil salesmen because we want a fix so bad. This is not a stab at John or hpfpupgrade at all, I really do agree with the Need to upgrade the rail valve. Just think we need to put our collective minds together for once on this issue..
Shane

This is the whole reason we waited so long before releasing any parts or info.

1. You need an upgraded HPFP, that has been proven time and time again. Which one is the best... I will leave that to those that want to form opinions or post the facts.
2. The rail valve/limiter valve is something that everyone has overlooked. Why? I have no idea, I can simply say that we have tested them, we have seen the side effects and we realized that something needed to be done about it.
3. We can offer proof, we have proof I just need the email so we can start advertising over here! Don't get upset because other people/companies have pulled the "wool" over your eyes. What should piss you off is how no one has offered a real solution to a cam follower that doesn't wear out every 3 to 4 months.

Yes, you can make 350 WHP on the stock injectors, you just need a fuel pump (HPFP) that can supply the pressure and volume. Its not something else... it call comes down to what is needed and what the car demands are. RPM plays a huge part in the available injector size, so does the rail valve, it all comes together to make a complete fuel system.

Look at it this way, in traditional point injection (pre-intake valve) you would upgrade the fuel pump... when that ran out you would upgrade the injectors... when that ran out you would replace the fuel lines with larger diameter lines and add a rising rate regulator. The DI applications are no different. You will need to upgrade the HPFP, you will need to upgrade the rail valve (regulator of sorts), you will eventually need to upgrade the injectors but... the fuel pump and upgraded rail valve should support most the applications out there. At some point you will have to upgrade the in - tank fuel pump... when? Well, this is something we are still testing. We have found that the high pressure pump will still function with 44 psi behind it and everyone knows that the volume increases from the low pressure pump when the pressure falls off (lower pressure = higher flow).

You made a comment about the upgrade to the upgraded fuel pump. Yes, people will need to upgrade this as well. When? I state that it should be done at 400 HP or higher boost on bigger turbos (K04 or GT series turbos). The OEM pump upgrades are good, the supply the fuel needed for your basic "tunes" or "small turbo upgrade".

Here is the problem... the first company to offer a fuel pump set the standard. That standard has stuck around until other options started to show up (still the standard in most peoples eyes). Problem being, those other options have huge issues and not one single company has been willing to come forward with a complete pump upgraded seal option for the market (until now). The company that set the standard are happy with what they have, it works for the tunes that they sell, it works for the masses. There was never any need to make a Stage II pump or verify the limits of the OEM rail valve... it worked and worked well. Now, there are companies that are working on complete fuel systems addressing the problems and the short comings of current fueling system/options. The market is huge and everyone wants a part of it, but very few are willing to build the testing equipment, test the parts, and offer the parts after testing. There have been a lot of revisions, a lot of tune "updates", a lot of "what ifs" and we hope to address these concerns of the site members and customers when the time comes.

I hope that this makes sense and we are here for the questions. I hope that this helped in clearing up your frustration.


So how would we go about upgrading our fuel rail? Would replacing it or boring it ve better

No need to do this, the current fuel rail will support 700 HP with the proper injectors and pump driving them.


I wish bench testing these wasn't so hard. If you could easily do it, I could see tuning distributors testing thousands of injectors and seeing which ones flow that % more than the others and then selling them for more $$ lol

Its not hard... give us a few months and you will start to see lots and lots of data from us. We have build over $300k worth of special testing equipment for the DI market in the last year, it will all be getting put to use in the coming months.


I understand that yes the timeframe gets very short, but I was more or less questioning the validity of your "this is why you ""run"" out of injector" statement. I'm not doubting your knowlege of this motor or it's components. I just have yet to SEE any proof that it's the injectors or the hpfp or rail... The list is endless.[evilmad]

It well known that the pump is a short fall (you can see the pressure drop with datalogs or with a VAG COM)... the pump is a must.

Rail valve, well you have seen our testing on line (pressure bench) and its kind of a no brainer... you don't want the fuel dumping back into the system until you have reached your target fuel pressure (hence the tune requesting a higher fuel pressure). I don't know why it has been over looked, I just know that its a needed item when you start tuning with a higher requested/commanded fuel pressure.

Injectors... we are working on that and test results will be up soon. This way we will be able to verify what is what, and what works.

[CorneliusRox]

So do we have an injector pattern (as in multiple shots) or just a single?

[hpfpupgrade]

So do we have an injector pattern (as in multiple shots) or just a single?

Right now I am working with just a single, will have a multiple solution up and running soon.

[Jay-Bee]

I like everything about this post.

[DRAKLORE]

Right now I am working with just a single, will have a multiple solution up and running soon.
Awesome feedback John. I want to push the b7 but for your applications there are better candidates out there over in the build section! Currently I do not have a built motor (not wanting to push it past 380ish whp..
I Just upgraded my lpfp thanks to vast performance, with a DW-300 drop in. I will contact you as soon as I can about your rail valve. But Bassically I feel for 380-400 whp the fueling setup I have is more than sufficient.. Rs4 INJ/dw-300/kmd hpfp/progressive water/meth... And soon rail valve.
But as soon as I get my motor built I will be wanting to turn up the boost.. Which means way more fuel, then I will contact you about your stage 2..
Thanks for the input so far. I Definently see what your saying about the current hpfp offered, and shick made a good point as well. As far as injectors are concerned I think once we hit the brick wall after my upgraded hpfp that's when I would start suspecting them :-/

[yungcotter]

2010 997t is 3.8l 6 cylinder 500hp direct injection. might be one to look at next time you are at the injector store.

Maybe 911 GT2rs injectors thats 612 hp from the same 3.8. But also isn't the veyron direct injected ?I would bet those flow enough.

[swoardrider]

Todd from AWE's test pics and findings. S3 injectors look like a winner to me:

What was even more interesting were the measured flow rates:

Stock = 1080 cc/min

RS4 = 1091 cc/min

S3 = 1217 cc/min

http://awe-tuning.com/media/products/awe/mk5_k04/fueling/FSI_injectors_comparo.jpg

[mr shickadance]

im still convinced that the a bigger part of the problem lies in the upgraded hpfp....but at least we are finnaly getting somewhere, swoadrider.....you is the best

[viziers]

Todd from AWE's test pics and findings. S3 injectors look like a winner to me:

What was even more interesting were the measured flow rates:

Stock = 1080 cc/min

RS4 = 1091 cc/min

S3 = 1217 cc/min

http://awe-tuning.com/media/products/awe/mk5_k04/fueling/FSI_injectors_comparo.jpg



I remember hearing talk that they were only tested at normal MFI injector PSI not at the DI's intended PSI...





vizi

[arisgti]

I have found a company that will take new DI injectors, cut them apart, lazer weld them back together. $500 for the service and you have to provide new injectors, $800 a pop! Its very expensive to get the higher flowing injectors done.... but what are our other options? Its new, its great and the company's that offer the service are going to get the price for the service, in two years when every car is direct injected then we will have more options.
Pm me if you like this company.

[DRAKLORE]

Todd from AWE's test pics and findings. S3 injectors look like a winner to me:

What was even more interesting were the measured flow rates:

Stock = 1080 cc/min

RS4 = 1091 cc/min

S3 = 1217 cc/min

http://awe-tuning.com/media/products/awe/mk5_k04/fueling/FSI_injectors_comparo.jpg

If you remember correctly that whole test stand and setup was an incorrect setup that proved nothing except that maybe the rs4 injectors have a different flow pattern...[facepalm] but now were going to start this thread ALL over again[headbang] awesome

[viziers]

^ I hope not....



vizi

[audi8844]

^ I hope not....

Change the subject.... so how bout that earthquake?

[jimrobbington]

Nothing that happens in this thread affects me, but it is a great read. There are great things happening in here. Yay aftermarket Audi community!

[crazytex21]

this is intense. i just read the whole thread (don't know where i have been the past few weeks.) i am currently still trying to figure out how much power i want this car to have. i will never get rid of it, so i guess the options are many, but i would rather just go stupid big the first time and call it done (enter RAI EFR.) following this very closely now.

[eastwick897]

Slimjoker got in at least one dyno run pre detonation lol what were his numbers? He didn't want to publish because it wasn't finalized

His car never pre-detonated.... Where did you hear that from???? It was a mechanical failure.

[audi8844]

I just got a call!!!! 91octane (needed gas didnt have a station with 94 near) + w/m with the stock intank pump + 23psi =
419awhp and 375awtrq!!!!!!

bob asked if i wanted to throw some race gas at her i said let me just get used to this first lol!!!!!

SO FUCKING HAPPY!!!!! AHAHSJKDHWLKJB***EAKBA

I'll posted up dyno sheet etc this afternoon!

Check out his build thread. Very impressive!

[viziers]

Bump for any new info out there...



vizi

[DRAKLORE]

His car never pre-detonated.... Where did you hear that from???? It was a mechanical failure.
DOH! lol I meant before his engine sploded(detonated!?)
I know were talking fueling haha but I wasn't talking timing/combustion hahaha

On another note, Camc has made 419awhp and has seen "no issues" with the rs4 injectors...

[ladedruck]

On another note, Camc has made 419awhp and has seen "no issues" with the rs4 injectors...

I assume they have turned up the fuel pressure(as well they should) in his plus he has meth. Apples to oranges to a car without meth. Meth allows a lot leaner conditions and the meth supplies some of the fuel as well. So with meth the rs4s should be ok for a ways up. Especially if they are tuned right so they idle correctly etc. If you look at what I said about Vizi's car on the dyno we ran out of injector and needed the ck valve. There is obviously more there if we raise the fuel pressure above 110 bar. Hell maybe stock pressure will be enough with the meth.

[crazytex21]

^^yeah, i saw that. was he was running the HPFP upgrade from autotech as well?

[camc]

I assume they have turned up the fuel pressure(as well they should) in his plus he has meth. Apples to oranges to a car without meth. Meth allows a lot leaner conditions and the meth supplies some of the fuel as well. So with meth the rs4s should be ok for a ways up. Especially if they are tuned right so they idle correctly etc. If you look at what I said about Vizi's car on the dyno we ran out of injector and needed the ck valve. There is obviously more there if we raise the fuel pressure above 110 bar. Hell maybe stock pressure will be enough with the meth.

Actually we arn't using w/m as a fueling solution, the nosel isnt even in a fueling location. I nor does bob want a car that relies of w/m for fuel. 91octane BLOWS as we all know so the w/m was just keeping to timing in check, but we were still getting plenty of fuel, it just sucks that was with 91 octane cuz its not really a power making fuel ahaha oh well.


I think all these "tuners" that still preach this rs4 injector hater speech need to go back to the drawing board with there tuning solutions.

next 2 runs are 94 and then race gas.

Oh ya and before anyone else speculates what i have

all i have done to the fuel system is this:

eurodyne low pressure fp controller
autotech hpfp
rs4 injectors

everything else is original. that includes whatever rail check valve everyone talking about this minute and the intank fuel pump.

[DRAKLORE]

Got my tune on[evilsmile].....

[camc]

Got my tune on[evilsmile].....

#'s?

[DRAKLORE]

Camc you know I'm ghetto, there's only beer at my buddies garage, no dyno lol
But seriously holy shit. I'm retarded for even thinking for a second this car was fast with the stg2+ software.
Mike@VAST made me jizz tonight as I hit 2nd and broke my tires loose<<<no homo... Ok maybe a little.. Lol
But seriously so far I only have the boost at 21 because I really only feel comfortable at that, it literally accelerates too fast for my brain to take everything in right now, I'm just not used to it. Once I get a little more comfortable I'm going to turn it up. Maybe 23-24 and then dyno. I have my meth setup for fueling... The cars AFR is very nice and I don't think the rs4 injectors are working that hard :-/ I will log-drag strip-dyno-winning.
And the stg3 clutch from vast.... Buy that shit! No chatter, no slip! I hate to sound like a salesman but honestly to be one of the first b7a4s with it, I'm glad that I took a chance on getting something new to the market.
I updated my thread, tomorrow I'll adD the videos :-)

[swoardrider]

If you remember correctly that whole test stand and setup was an incorrect setup that proved nothing except that maybe the rs4 injectors have a different flow pattern...[facepalm] but now were going to start this thread ALL over again[headbang] awesome

Todd had done that test back in '08, and the big debate over on Vortex was the PSI setting. Todd claimed correct PSI via a mathematical equation that nobody understood, but him, and claimed his test resulted in the same exact numbers as the manufacturer of the RS4 injectors, Hitachi. Dyno queens claimed BS, due to proven engine builds with logs.
Either way, the one thing that the test does show, is that the spray pattern is clearly different than the intended spray design for our engines. RS4 injectors also use a different impedance. From all my readings, I've come to the conclusion that they will work, but are not the optimal, and over long term, may prove to be catastrophic. Only time will tell.

[hpfpupgrade]

Maybe 911 GT2rs injectors thats 612 hp from the same 3.8. But also isn't the veyron direct injected ?I would bet those flow enough.

I think that the GT2's have a different spray pattern from the injector... I could be wrong, so let me do some lurking on this. The Veyron... no idea.


Todd from AWE's test pics and findings. S3 injectors look like a winner to me:

What was even more interesting were the measured flow rates:

Stock = 1080 cc/min

RS4 = 1091 cc/min

S3 = 1217 cc/min

http://awe-tuning.com/media/products/awe/mk5_k04/fueling/FSI_injectors_comparo.jpg

That spray pattern looks like its low pressure, any idea what pressure he is spraying at?


im still convinced that the a bigger part of the problem lies in the upgraded hpfp....but at least we are finnaly getting somewhere, swoadrider.....you is the best

Yes, the problem is in several parts of the high pressure side. Most would freak if they knew just how little fuel gets moved with a standard fuel pump, this is why we came out with our S2 pump (more details on that later). Still waiting for the admin to contact me about advertising???

[hpfpupgrade]

Bump for any new info out there...



vizi

Nothing yet, working on some additional fueling solutions this weekend.

[hpfpupgrade]

Actually we arn't using w/m as a fueling solution, the nosel isnt even in a fueling location. I nor does bob want a car that relies of w/m for fuel. 91octane BLOWS as we all know so the w/m was just keeping to timing in check, but we were still getting plenty of fuel, it just sucks that was with 91 octane cuz its not really a power making fuel ahaha oh well.


I think all these "tuners" that still preach this rs4 injector hater speech need to go back to the drawing board with there tuning solutions.

next 2 runs are 94 and then race gas.

Oh ya and before anyone else speculates what i have

all i have done to the fuel system is this:

eurodyne low pressure fp controller
autotech hpfp
rs4 injectors

everything else is original. that includes whatever rail check valve everyone talking about this minute and the intank fuel pump.

You need to get Bob over to the dark side of meth, LOL. DI cars need it, not only for its fueling options but also for the cleaning quality's it has for getting all the gunk off the top of the intake valves and out of the runners. On 91 octane... you should be running meth no questions about it!!! 91 sucks bad!

I agree with you, the RS4 injector works but its not the best option on the market. The rail/limiter valve is a huge contributing factor in proper fueling. Why dump fuel out of the rail when your target fuel pressure (tune commanded fuel pressure) is over that of the OEM crack pressure of the limiter valve? I am not surprised that you made 400 + hp with your car on the stock in tank pump... it just supplies the fuel to the HP pump so its not a huge factor in getting the fuel to the motor.

I also feel that the low pressure controller you have on the car played a huge part in getting your numbers, thumbs up!

[hpfpupgrade]

Todd had done that test back in '08, and the big debate over on Vortex was the PSI setting. Todd claimed correct PSI via a mathematical equation that nobody understood, but him, and claimed his test resulted in the same exact numbers as the manufacturer of the RS4 injectors, Hitachi. Dyno queens claimed BS, due to proven engine builds with logs.
Either way, the one thing that the test does show, is that the spray pattern is clearly different than the intended spray design for our engines. RS4 injectors also use a different impedance. From all my readings, I've come to the conclusion that they will work, but are not the optimal, and over long term, may prove to be catastrophic. Only time will tell.

I understand that he used the math to get his numbers, but the efficiency of the injector changes when you swap from 70 psi to 2000 psi math or not.

That is key, the spray pattern. This is why we need a high flowing injector on the market (working on it) that will supply the fuel to meet the needs and demands of big builds to the S2 stock turbo guys.

When we have the permissions to advertise I will be posting up some of the details of our injector testing.

[viziers]

OMG Anthony please hurry up! Thank you for the info John it is much appreciated!



vizi

[audi8844]

I understand that he used the math to get his numbers, but the efficiency of the injector changes when you swap from 70 psi to 2000 psi math or not.

That is key, the spray pattern. This is why we need a high flowing injector on the market (working on it) that will supply the fuel to meet the needs and demands of big builds to the S2 stock turbo guys.

When we have the permissions to advertise I will be posting up some of the details of our injector testing.

This definitely has me holding off on additional mods to see how this all develops. Very interested in seeing more info on this

[viziers]

I am installing their 142 bar fuel relief valve today instead of the 135 bar Rs4 valve....




vizi

[audi8844]

I am installing their 142 bar fuel relief valve today instead of the 135 bar Rs4 valve....

Definitely interested to see some reviews on these. I think it's you and Draklore getting their relief valves (?)

[DRAKLORE]

I haven't oresered mine yet, but will soon. Vizi would have the older 116 CV where I'm pretty sure I would have the updated 126?? Either way it's on my list of needs :-) then maybe I will try their stg2 hpfp?

[Operator]

Definitely interested to see some reviews on these. I think it's you and Draklore getting their relief valves (?)

I already have mine http://img36.imageshack.us/img36/3100/photo5rok.jpg

[audi8844]

I already have mine

Oh yea I knew that. Let us know how it works out for you. Especially with the K0R-GT install

[arisgti]

any news???????

[viziers]

Well my 142bar valve is installed and so far it seems to have helped smooth out my WOT runs nicely (maybe a placebo effect).. I think Evan will be surprised to see how it has done once its on the dyno...


Where is Evan anyways?




vizi

[ladedruck]

Well my 142bar valve is installed and so far it seems to have helped smooth out my WOT runs nicely (maybe a placebo effect).. I think Evan will be surprised to see how it has done once its on the dyno...


Where is Evan anyways?




vizi
that guy is a dick anyway ;) Where are the pics of your new set up??? I can't wait to see what kind of fp that valve will hold. [evilsmile]

[viziers]

that guy is a dick anyway ;) Where are the pics of your new set up??? I can't wait to see what kind of fp that valve will hold. [evilsmile]


Lol..... You will see soon enough as Im working on getting it down to you hopefully this comming Tuesday... Just gotta see if the wifey is up for the drive (she is due this month).....



vizi

[DRAKLORE]

Idk how you do it! I have a hard enough time with one kid. Jeff do you watch family guy? Cause I would say your wife is like Bonnie (joes wife), seems like she's been pregnant everyday since I've joined these forums lol

[swoardrider]

That spray pattern looks like its low pressure, any idea what pressure he is spraying at?

That's the big debate. Here is the original thread. Maybe you can shed some light on it, as this getting way outta my league: http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?4080220-KMD-injectors-or-so-they-say/page3

[mr shickadance]

more evidence that i think the problem lies in the hpfp not in the injectors
apr's hpfp graph
http://www.goapr.com/includes/img/products/fsi_pump_potential.gif
HPFP upgrade graph
http://hpfpupgrade.com/images/products/comparison-tn.jpg



im not trying to start anything with apr or anything like that all im saying is notice how the stage 2 HPFP upgrade starts at 200 and ends at 600 and APR starts at 180 and ends at 525 (i am ball parking those numbers based on the graph)

stage 1 hpfp upgrade is more similar to APR, but if the stage 2 exists, we are looking at a pump that out performs the APR one by quite a bit, im still not 100% convinced the injectors are what is holding people back, the mazda folk still have not reached their injectors limits.


thoughts?

[DRAKLORE]

Someone with the car built and ready, with a 3076 or larger is going to have to step up get the rail valve, get the stage two hpfp and see what more they can get, I would say that person should also have a lpfp solution as well.... Now who meets that criteria....
Cough* Vizi cough* Camc lol

[ladedruck]

I am sitting in my den turning Vizi's rail pressure up as I type.

and burping a 5lbs baby girl at the same time.

[DRAKLORE]

Congatulations :-) or is that Jeffs 8th child??? LMAO

[ladedruck]

Congatulations :-) or is that Jeffs 8th child??? LMAO
Thanks. And hahaha you say Jeff''s 8 but I just realized that between us we will have 7 soon since this is my 4th.

Now back to injectors..... I am not sure the graphs posted are apples to apples because I have no idea how either one of the companies are getting a hp rating here. One may be calculating assuming a different afr etc. It would be much more useful to see a chart of volume/pressure between the two(or all of the available choices) don't you think???

[DRAKLORE]

I love component HP ratings, how do they know? So many things factor into efficiency. But I guess were in the dark on most schtuff for the b7 lol were not even sure about Bosch injectors

[viziers]

Someone with the car built and ready, with a 3076 or larger is going to have to step up get the rail valve, get the stage two hpfp and see what more they can get, I would say that person should also have a lpfp solution as well.... Now who meets that criteria....
Cough* Vizi cough* Camc lol


I would consider giving their Stg2 HPFP a go if its at the right price.. But as for HPFP's go you know the horror stories that can happen.. If I did the HPFP i'd also get the H2Sport CF fix too and then my hope for a intake goes out the window (not that the GB is progressing or anything).... So we will see what happens gotta first see what Evan can muster up in that old engine of mine....

Even now i'm already thinking of the drivetrain......



vizi

[viziers]

I am sitting in my den turning Vizi's rail pressure up as I type.

and burping a 5lbs baby girl at the same time.


Evan, it's 11pm go to bed...Lol the car will be there tomorrow and family first...


P.S. Unless you are teaching her the tricks of the trade then it's ok...lol



vizi

[mr shickadance]

Thanks. And hahaha you say Jeff''s 8 but I just realized that between us we will have 7 soon since this is my 4th.

Now back to injectors..... I am not sure the graphs posted are apples to apples because I have no idea how either one of the companies are getting a hp rating here. One may be calculating assuming a different afr etc. It would be much more useful to see a chart of volume/pressure between the two(or all of the available choices) don't you think???


no you do make a good point, i think the graphs were meant to show when and where in the RPM range that you should expect to see fuel cuts bc the hpfp could not provide enough fueling for the applications. that being said, i have no idea how the companies came to any of thier numbers, for all i know they could be just writing a line down on a graph and calling it a day

i just wanted to toss out the idea bc i feel like we all have been brainwashed a little to accept the fact that there can only be one HPFP and once you upgrade it you are looking at the max, and hpfpupgrade seems to have broken that barrier

[viziers]

since we are talking about HPFP her ya all go, there is a first for everything... Not a big deal but figured you all wanted to know about it...

http://www.golfmkv.com/forums/showthread.php?t=155515




vizi

[mr shickadance]

thats crazy, i have not seen an APR pump seize or have problems....what is nice though is it looks like APR is covering the problem for the cost of shipping, which is a really decent and respectful of them, i shot out a few questions to HPFPupgrade.com just to see if they have any warranty system, fueling is def next on my list and i have been pretty adamant about going apr for a while, but now that i see this site im starting to look for alternatives

eventually i do plan on going BT at the moment, i am looking for a house, a ring, and a few other more important expenses but eventually perhaps in a year or so i will make the plunge into the BT area, what i dont want to do is buy an 800$ pump from APR, and then another 800$ pump from HPFPupgrade when i go BT

[viziers]

thats crazy, i have not seen an APR pump seize or have problems....what is nice though is it looks like APR is covering the problem for the cost of shipping, which is a really decent and respectful of them, i shot out a few questions to HPFPupgrade.com just to see if they have any warranty system, fueling is def next on my list and i have been pretty adamant about going apr for a while, but now that i see this site im starting to look for alternatives

eventually i do plan on going BT at the moment, i am looking for a house, a ring, and a few other more important expenses but eventually perhaps in a year or so i will make the plunge into the BT area, what i dont want to do is buy an 800$ pump from APR, and then another 800$ pump from HPFPupgrade when i go BT



You and me both but i have the APR pump already (very happy with it too) but if HPFPUpgrades flow more and is what is needed then that is where I have to go...


vizi

[mr shickadance]

thats another thing, i don't know if thats the problem.....all i know is that the MS3 who have very similar fueling/.engines have not needed to upgrade thier injectors yet, but have upgraded thier fuel pumps


i wouldn;t want to spend 800 bones to find out that the problem is infact injectors

[DRAKLORE]

Its not clear cut until its proven lol its an exspensive game, but i guess its cool to be a pioneer lol

[mr shickadance]

well im waiting for a reply for hpfp, then ill pull the trigger if its in stock, then someone just needs to let me borrow/give me thier gt3076 and we can prove something

[viziers]

You dont want myn 76r as she has been used... and no one likes a used HO....lol



vizi

[mr shickadance]

pm me price!!with manifold!?

[viziers]

pm me price!!with manifold!?



Ignore Pm read request wrong!!!! LMAO sheesh...




vizi

[viziers]

HPFPUpgrade, any news on the BT injectors??? price/release date???




vizi

[jmarch1122]

Whats the deal with the stage 3 from hpfpupgrade? Go big or go home i say. what does it cost?

[Operator]

Whats the deal with the stage 3 from hpfpupgrade? Go big or go home i say. what does it cost?

After talking with him, Stage II is enough to handle the BT guys pushing the limits on their turbos. So unless you play to go further than that, I don't think you'll need stg3.

[arisgti]

Many people says that the injectors from the new Porsche 997 turbo is the correct solution..

[viziers]

Many people says that the injectors from the new Porsche 997 turbo is the correct solution..


Do you have any proof of that maybe links to where it is said.... I ask becasue I can say "ive heard lambo injectors work too" (not trying to diss you) but see what I mean??






vizi

[DRAKLORE]

LOL "many people have said the Delta Lunar module injectors work..."

[arisgti]

Do you have any proof of that maybe links to where it is said.... I ask becasue I can say "ive heard lambo injectors work too" (not trying to diss you) but see what I mean??






vizi
Wait the reply from hpfpupgrade..

[viziers]

Bumping as to not lose the thread.


vizi

[DRAKLORE]

Any way we can get some more tuning manufacturers to participate in this thread? We should send out some pms...

[Operator]

Was this thread edited too?!?

[DRAKLORE]

more evidence that i think the problem lies in the hpfp not in the injectors
apr's hpfp graph
http://www.goapr.com/includes/img/products/fsi_pump_potential.gif
HPFP upgrade graph
http://hpfpupgrade.com/images/products/comparison-tn.jpg



im not trying to start anything with apr or anything like that all im saying is notice how the stage 2 HPFP upgrade starts at 200 and ends at 600 and APR starts at 180 and ends at 525 (i am ball parking those numbers based on the graph)

stage 1 hpfp upgrade is more similar to APR, but if the stage 2 exists, we are looking at a pump that out performs the APR one by quite a bit, im still not 100% convinced the injectors are what is holding people back, the mazda folk still have not reached their injectors limits.


thoughts?

OK first and foremost, these graphs are really pissing me off! I mean WTF (where) are they getting these predicted numbers from. I mean what calculation did they use? Because as far as I know, there are 2.0Tfsi capable of these numbers anyways, so there must be a formula based on the BAR each pump is good for... That leads me to my second point

-WTF is each hpfps BAR rating? I've heard 200 BAR for the autotech which the CTSturbo guy was a bit shaky on that info
APR is said to be around 130-140BAR?? I mean what are the real numbers, how fucked am I with my latest revision KMD?
How much better is the hpfpupgrade pump? What about stg2.
Smoke and mirrors...

Shane Drake

[mr shickadance]

stock is 130

apr i thought was closer to 140

hpfp upgrade claims to be 142 stage 1 and stage 2 was like 147?


autotech is on drugs if they are claiming 200 bar thats close to 3,000PSI .....thats pretty much 1/3 better then oem

[DRAKLORE]

So if you get the 142BAR check valve (rail valve) unless your hpfpupgrade stg2, you will never crack it??!!
Is it more of a safety mechanism, so not to over pressurize the injectors???

Shane Drake

[CorneliusRox]

just glanced at the APR chart... it is crap. Tq=(5252*HP)/RPM which doesnt make that graph which makes me think less of APR... If TQ is a straight line, HP wouldnt look like that. Maybe I am just tired and being dumb... idk


Also, I have heard of ppl plugging their rail check valve for a bit higher pressure. It is made to make sure nothing fails (rail, lines, injectors, hpfp), but if you are looking for max numbers... fuck it

[DRAKLORE]

It looks as though those graphs were made in paint... Imma go make my own graph and show up everyone of you. It's all just hypothetical BS :-/

But I guess if the pigs eat it, then keep forking it to them.

[mr shickadance]

i believe that the graph lines are linear like that, the spray and function of a HPFP is not going to be a curve like an engines hp, its driven from the cam, and the RPMs are a linear function, so i can understand that, i also can gather that a pump that pushes out 130 bar, will provide less fuel then a pump running at 142,

all i was trying to prove with those 'graphs' i guess is that APR's pump is weaker then the hpfp ugrade.....and if thats the case, then not all hpfp solutions are not same so maybe the fuel issue lies with that

[CorneliusRox]

i believe that the graph lines are linear like that, the spray and function of a HPFP is not going to be a curve like an engines hp, its driven from the cam, and the RPMs are a linear function, so i can understand that, i also can gather that a pump that pushes out 130 bar, will provide less fuel then a pump running at 142,

all i was trying to prove with those 'graphs' i guess is that APR's pump is weaker then the hpfp ugrade.....and if thats the case, then not all hpfp solutions are not same so maybe the fuel issue lies with that

I'm not hating no you, just saying that ARP is giving out some fake info.

Shane, could you make me up a chart too. I wanna peak torque at 15prm's ;-)

[mr shickadance]

haha yea no offense taken, company graphs always need to be taken with a grain of salt

[DRAKLORE]

We gonna let this thread just die?

[viziers]

I hope not....





vizi

[Operator]

Well my pump, injectors, and rail valve are installed, but I haven't done anything to really push the car yet to see their impact.

[jimrobbington]

I thought the stock hpfp could only handle 120 bar? I also read that stage 2+ tunes are requesting 130 bar, which is why you have to upgrade the pump.

[bman005]

This is straight from my training book for 2.0t engine back when it came out:
High Pressure System

The high pressure system maintains fuel
pressure in the 435–1,595 psi (30–110 bar)
range. The pressure range may vary.

High Pressure System Components
Include:
• High pressure fuel pump
• Fuel Pressure Regulator Valve N276
• Fuel rail
• Pressure limiting valve (opens at
approximately 1,740 psi [120 bar])
• Fuel Pressure Sensor G247
• Cylinder Fuel Injectors N30–N33

There's no info about max pressure for the pump but notice when the pressure limiting valve opens

[jmarch1122]

I am expecting to receive my stage 2 HPFP and 142 BAR check valve from hpfpupgrade.com sometime this week. Like someone mentioned, I dont know how exactly Ill test it out. I havent gone fast enough to force a fuel cut in 5 months.

I aso have 4 brand new RS4 injectors starring at me from a box. I wanna start plugging everything in, but its a little complicated because the only thing I know about my internals in what has happened to me while using them. Here is what I know:

I definitely have had a fuel cut, probably 3 times total during which I completely lost control on the throttle until I slowed down from 130 to about 65-70mph where it returned to normal.

Based on what I understand, if I had had stock fuel injectors, I could not have been able to redline it up to 130mph-it would have cut out. This leads me to believe that I have RS4s already installed. Since I have a ATP-450 kit, Im pretty sure whoever put it all together knew enough to use RS4s, rather than S3s, which are mostly only used in complete kits like APRs.

[DRAKLORE]

Jmarch, to save yourself some hassle of ripping of the intake manifold to ^see what injectors you've got, find someone with a decent boroscope, preferably one with an LCD display. Then have them feed it down there to ^see if you can get the part #s or ^see if the part #s have been etched off(KMD does this)
Just my .02 you prob have RS4 if your bumper is covered in soot on a regular basis...

[hpfpupgrade]

Today I had an epiphany, most everyone knows that mazdas been using FSI technology and we are
Not alone in that realm.
My point is, there are Mazda fsi running 800+ whp... They have obviously found a fueling solution as stated by John a hpfpupgrade. Is there a possible way to run a mazda higher cc fsi injector in our motor. I'm talking a company that is willing to sell a billet sleeve kit to adapt the port in our head for a Mazda injector, or a possible way to bore out the injector port and sleeve...
Any insight would be much appreciated. :-)

Very soon, we will have a stock replacement drop in proper spray pattern option. We have figured out a way to modify the OEM injector to give much more flow. When we are loaded up as a site sponsor we will be getting to all these details and prices on our current products. Stay tuned!

[hpfpupgrade]

OK first and foremost, these graphs are really pissing me off! I mean WTF (where) are they getting these predicted numbers from. I mean what calculation did they use? Because as far as I know, there are 2.0Tfsi capable of these numbers anyways, so there must be a formula based on the BAR each pump is good for... That leads me to my second point

-WTF is each hpfps BAR rating? I've heard 200 BAR for the autotech which the CTSturbo guy was a bit shaky on that info
APR is said to be around 130-140BAR?? I mean what are the real numbers, how fucked am I with my latest revision KMD?
How much better is the hpfpupgrade pump? What about stg2.
Smoke and mirrors...

Shane Drake


stock is 130

apr i thought was closer to 140

hpfp upgrade claims to be 142 stage 1 and stage 2 was like 147?


autotech is on drugs if they are claiming 200 bar thats close to 3,000PSI .....thats pretty much 1/3 better then oem


So if you get the 142BAR check valve (rail valve) unless your hpfpupgrade stg2, you will never crack it??!!
Is it more of a safety mechanism, so not to over pressurize the injectors???

Shane Drake


It looks as though those graphs were made in paint... Imma go make my own graph and show up everyone of you. It's all just hypothetical BS :-/

But I guess if the pigs eat it, then keep forking it to them.


haha yea no offense taken, company graphs always need to be taken with a grain of salt

LOL guys, as soon as I have my site sponsor I will be in here answering questions.

There is a lot to be imagined with the charts and to be honest with you... you can run much more fuel pressure and get more power I just cannot say much without my posts getting deleted.

[DRAKLORE]

Ugh* very frustrating indeed. I and I'm sure many others will be waiting patiently...
:-)

[viziers]

I can't wait John! Car is runing great and needs more fuel for the 76r it's wearing....Lol




vizi

[slimmj0k3r]

Slimjoker got in at least one dyno run pre detonation lol what were his numbers? He didn't want to publish because it wasn't finalized

My numbers on 93 we're around 400whp, same as eastwick.

My numbers on 91 were never dyno'd with the actual 91 I'm running out here. Mark used an 89 file he created which was a really mild tune until i got out here and we had time to revise things, never got around to the revision as the car took a shit. Cam locked up and we're still trying to figure out what caused it. Before all that happened I did log the car and will try and get those logs from my buddy soon.

The car will be back and stronger than before pending on what we find. I'd like to start tackling this fueling as well, I'm hopefully going with a smaller turbo this time around but still looking to break 400whp for DD.

and bump this back up!

[viziers]

Hope John from HPFPupgrade can chime in on some new news on things to come..



vizi

[jimrobbington]

Yeah, isn't he supposedly an advertiser now? I still haven't seen any posts from him.

JR

[CorneliusRox]

Yeah, isn't he supposedly an advertiser now? I still haven't seen any posts from him.

JR

still in the process of becoming one was the last thing I heard. That is probably why he hasnt been around too much lately.

[DRAKLORE]

Jeff, spill the beans! I know your holding back ;-)

[viziers]

Jeff, spill the beans! I know your holding back ;-)


I can't unfortunately, but if it works out everyone will be fapping to the dyno graph when its posted.....



vizi

[jimrobbington]

Wasn't it over a week ago when I was slapped on the hand for talking about hpfpupgrade, then told he was confirmed as an advertiser? I want new stuffs to talk about already! It's snowing and boring at work today.

JR

[viziers]

Wasn't it over a week ago when I was slapped on the hand for talking about hpfpupgrade, then told he was confirmed as an advertiser? I want new stuffs to talk about already! It's snowing and boring at work today.

JR

If it helps I made the owner of a Dodge Charger feel bad about his car this morning, On Sunday I also surprised the shit out of a mustang GT that was modded .. I then had to explain why the car smoked (RS4 injectiors)...


vizi

[jimrobbington]

If it helps I made the owner of a Dodge Charger feel bad about his car this morning, On Sunday I also surprised the shit out of a mustang GT that was modded .. I then had to explain why the car smoked (RS4 injectiors)...


vizi

Good! Haha! The Dodge Charger is the gayest "muscle" (i use that term very loosely) car available. Why anyone would buy that ugly hunk of crap when the Challenger is right there in the same dealership is beyond me. They need to discontinue that pos stat.

JR

[DRAKLORE]

You Sonavabitch Jeff...

[Operator]

Any of you have vids of the smoking the RS4's cause?!?

[CorneliusRox]

Good! Haha! The Dodge Charger is the gayest "muscle" (i use that term very loosely) car available. Why anyone would buy that ugly hunk of crap when the Challenger is right there in the same dealership is beyond me. They need to discontinue that pos stat.

JR

every car has it's up side. The SRT8 Chargers are freaking fast! If I recall they handle the track much better than a Challenger. Downside is price, and the lack of mods, but for an older guy? not bad. They are around $60k though. I think 58 and some change before options, tax, plates, etc..


Vizi, I want to hear what you changed to get your car running right (after you make your big release)!!

[jibatnes]

Not meaning to ruin the thread, but i have searched and i havent found anything yet. Will the RS4 injectors work with a k04 or a K0R-GT or is it best to go with the S3 injectors? Is the one better than the other? Thanks.

[viziers]

You Sonavabitch Jeff...



[:p]


vizi

[viziers]

Any of you have vids of the smoking the RS4's cause?!?

well looking at it through the rear view it look minimal but noticable.




vizi

[viziers]

Vizi, I want to hear what you changed to get your car running right (after you make your big release)!!


Will do for sure!


vizi

[viziers]

Not meaning to ruin the thread, but i have searched and i havent found anything yet. Will the RS4 injectors work with a k04 or a K0R-GT or is it best to go with the S3 injectors? Is the one better than the other? Thanks.

Yes they will but I think the S3 injectors are better suited for the K0r and K04 turbos



vizi

[CorneliusRox]

Not meaning to ruin the thread, but i have searched and i havent found anything yet. Will the RS4 injectors work with a k04 or a K0R-GT or is it best to go with the S3 injectors? Is the one better than the other? Thanks.

you'll be fine with S3's if you stay under the 300awhp mark is what I have gathered. And you wont get much smoke. The spray pattern on the S3's are the same as the stock 2.0's. The RS4's flow more though, so if you ever want to go real big, you should get them. Also they are cheaper.

And that isnt ruining the thread, but I am 99% sure that this info is in this thread at this point.

[DRAKLORE]

In the top of this pic, you can ^see the two black spots on the driveway from starting the car up in that spot a few times
http://i739.photobucket.com/albums/xx33/draklore/ef1b5a93.jpg

[Operator]

Wow, more than I thought, for just a couple times....

[CorneliusRox]

cadi wagon is shizlow! lol

so are you saying that is from your exhaust? or just an oil leak somewhere?

[DRAKLORE]

From my exhaust, it really only noticeably smokes if I've been driving normal. Or me driving after the wife, then I get childish and step on it, as soon as it kicks you in the pants there is a rather large plume of black smoke in the rearview.

[{PMS}fishy]

What about TT RS injectors, or some parts off the new Porsche 998?

[CorneliusRox]

From my exhaust, it really only noticeably smokes if I've been driving normal. Or me driving after the wife, then I get childish and step on it, as soon as it kicks you in the pants there is a rather large plume of black smoke in the rearview.

If you want, I can take a vid of the black smoke my truck leaves and it will make you feel a lot better!

[bman005]

If you want, I can take a vid of the black smoke my truck leaves and it will make you feel a lot better!

I bet its awesome!!! You should totally post one up [up]

[CorneliusRox]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v733/TelevatorTMV/th_DSCF4395.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v733/TelevatorTMV/?action=view&current=DSCF4395.mp4)

this is from 2.5 years ago, so... it doesnt really compare. plus i am not moving.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v733/TelevatorTMV/th_TruckProject.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v733/TelevatorTMV/?action=view&current=TruckProject.mp4)

heres a little one, before the lift, and tuned down for the campus police...

[jimrobbington]

Corey, your links is all messed up yo.

JR

[CorneliusRox]

yeah, i see that. I am uploading them to photobucket. taking a while though. I'll edit it when I do, and update this thread

[CorneliusRox]

http://www.audizine.com/forum/showthread.php/444805-BT-Injector-solution?p=7072475&viewfull=1#post7072475

[jibatnes]

Yes they will but I think the S3 injectors are better suited for the K0r and K04 turbos



vizi


you'll be fine with S3's if you stay under the 300awhp mark is what I have gathered. And you wont get much smoke. The spray pattern on the S3's are the same as the stock 2.0's. The RS4's flow more though, so if you ever want to go real big, you should get them. Also they are cheaper.

And that isnt ruining the thread, but I am 99% sure that this info is in this thread at this point.


Thanks. Ive been reading through the thread, and many others but has anyone tested the RS4 injectors with the K04 or K0R? Is there any reason they wont work with these turbos? Is it smoking more? Im just thinking since they are cheaper, and if it works fine with these turbos why not go with them? :)
And one more thing, my car is a 2005 mod. Ive been reading about the fuelrail valve, and prob i got the 116 bar one. Im gonna go with a K04 or K0R and i see that there is options for 142, 145 and 150 bar. Wich one is best of for these turbos? Or my stage 2+ im at now? Is there going to be a problem if i order the biggest one?

Thanks :)

[jimrobbington]

142 bar will be fine, but if you are an 05.5 at stage 2+, you haven't even used the power available yet. Get that valve immediately and you'll get more power. You are still just running at normal stage 2 levels, losing about 200psi of available fueling.

JR

[jibatnes]

142 bar will be fine, but if you are an 05.5 at stage 2+, you haven't even used the power available yet. Get that valve immediately and you'll get more power. You are still just running at normal stage 2 levels, losing about 200psi of available fueling.

JR

Thanks alot :) Ordered as we speak.

[jimrobbington]

Thanks alot :) Ordered as we speak.

Glad I could help.

JR

[CorneliusRox]

Thanks. Ive been reading through the thread, and many others but has anyone tested the RS4 injectors with the K04 or K0R? Is there any reason they wont work with these turbos? Is it smoking more? Im just thinking since they are cheaper, and if it works fine with these turbos why not go with them? :)
And one more thing, my car is a 2005 mod. Ive been reading about the fuelrail valve, and prob i got the 116 bar one. Im gonna go with a K04 or K0R and i see that there is options for 142, 145 and 150 bar. Wich one is best of for these turbos? Or my stage 2+ im at now? Is there going to be a problem if i order the biggest one?

Thanks :)

It really doesnt matter what size you get. I doubt your file requests it that high and they are basically there so fuel will escape out of the PRV instead of blowing the common rail. So if there were never any errors, ever. Then you could plug it. I mean you could do that anyways, but if the file had an error, called for 999BAR or something, the rail would burst = BAD

[viziers]

Bumping this so it does not get lost!



vizi

[hpfpupgrade]

Ok guys, I think we can discuss this a little bit more in depth now.

RS4 injectors have a bad spray angle and cause cold morning fuel enrichment due to the partially burnt or raw fuel getting pumped out the turbo/exhaust.

S3 injectors... a much better option (proper spray angle).

RS4 vs S3 injector. For those that don't know, we have a test bench that we can test injectors at pressure on (its tied into our fuel pump dyno). Its been rigged up for adjustable voltage control for open or open close events (for those injectors that require both open and close voltage). I can only see injector spray pattern at this time, getting accurate flow results is going to take some sort of "collection" at the bottom of the tubes. The good thing about this, we can see and measure spray angle and cone diameter. The tubes are 8 inches in diameter that the injector sits on top of, so we an see the whole spray angle. The RS4 spray angle is way off and it appears to deliver more fuel at the bottom of the cone than at the top. The S3 injector is a perfect match to the OEM/stock injector. From the testing of the S3 and RS4 injector flow, the S3 injector appears to be delivering more fuel at 80 bar than the RS4 injector. I have not pushed the injectors to the full potential of 140 bar (not very comfortable with pressures this high), but from what we can tell the S3 or Golf Type R injector moves more volume than the RS4 injector.

Good news, we can modify the S3 injectors to move even more volume. I will have more details on this after the start of the year and we have the tool to take the injectors apart, so this will make things much easier now. I will keep everyone updated on the progress that we make with the injector.

Thanks,

John

[viziers]

John, that is fantastic!!!! I'm too excited for this!!!



vizi

[hpfpupgrade]

It really doesnt matter what size you get. I doubt your file requests it that high and they are basically there so fuel will escape out of the PRV instead of blowing the common rail. So if there were never any errors, ever. Then you could plug it. I mean you could do that anyways, but if the file had an error, called for 999BAR or something, the rail would burst = BAD

10 bar over your current tune request is what we recommend.

Even with the rail valve, if you had an upgraded fuel pump and commanded 250 bar... the common rail would burst. I have experienced this first hand when testing different fuel pump and control devices on the N276 valve. It is possible to get a spike of 270 bar if you command something stupid with your tune, its a very bad condition and it put calibration fluid all over my shop when the rail failed on the pump dyno.

[hpfpupgrade]

John, that is fantastic!!!! I'm too excited for this!!!



vizi

Thanks.

I have been working very hard at getting something together for the FSI world. I have all the info and testing done all I need to do is figure out a way to mass produce the item and we will have a larger injector ready for everyone.

[viziers]

Wow that is crazy, hope no one got hurt...... So far the 142 bar valve is working great. How is the cam follower progress as ill be needing one in the very near future.



P.S. John I have 3 of my stock injectors as spares if you need them.



vizi

[DRAKLORE]

This is fantastic news, seems like your results are on par with awe, but with the speculation in pressures and flow rates I'm glad your waiting to put any numbers or hard facts out there.
I really can't wait to get an injector that doesn't cause my car to look like a diesel... I'm just a little miffed that You can't modify the rs4s... Seeing how a majority of the vendors have these in stock for good prices and the S3s are not as easy or cheap to come by :-/
Good luck

[hpfpupgrade]

Wow that is crazy, hope no one got hurt...... So far the 142 bar valve is working great. How is the cam follower progress as ill be needing one in the very near future.



P.S. John I have 3 of my stock injectors as spares if you need them.



vizi

Vizi, when you get a chance PM me and I will trade you for some stuff for those injectors.

No one was hurt, but that damn calibration fluid doesn't like to be wiped or mopped up so it was a little slick for a few days in the shop. It was amazing how far the fluid sprayed when the rail failed, damn near 30 ft away we found calibration fluid.

[hpfpupgrade]

This is fantastic news, seems like your results are on par with awe, but with the speculation in pressures and flow rates I'm glad your waiting to put any numbers or hard facts out there.
I really can't wait to get an injector that doesn't cause my car to look like a diesel... I'm just a little miffed that You can't modify the rs4s... Seeing how a majority of the vendors have these in stock for good prices and the S3s are not as easy or cheap to come by :-/
Good luck

Thanks.

We can modify the RS4 injectors to correct the spray pattern, problem being it makes them much larger and there is not a tuning solution out there to address the additional flow (they are like 40% larger). The S3 injectors are very easy for us to come by and they are cheaper than the RS4's. You just have to know the part number for the US application :)

[Operator]

the S3s are not as easy or cheap to come by :-/
Good luck

Check out the VW forums, they seem to be in the classifieds quite often.

[DRAKLORE]

I have yet to come by the funds for the rail valve lol I think I'll be swapping my KMD hpfp internals for the hpfpupgrade stage2 before I attempt any injector modifications. There's just no sense in upgrading them if I am stuck with a sub par hpfp ya know
John, have you tested the s3s compared to stock, iirc awe found that stock injectors flowed quite a bit... And if you could replicate the modifications to stock injectors it might save you even more money?

[bman005]

Does anyone have a part number for the S3 injectors?

[fordyoz]

142 bar will be fine, but if you are an 05.5 at stage 2+, you haven't even used the power available yet. Get that valve immediately and you'll get more power. You are still just running at normal stage 2 levels, losing about 200psi of available fueling.

JR

how positive are you about this?
just curious.

[viziers]

Vizi, when you get a chance PM me and I will trade you for some stuff for those injectors.

No one was hurt, but that damn calibration fluid doesn't like to be wiped or mopped up so it was a little slick for a few days in the shop. It was amazing how far the fluid sprayed when the rail failed, damn near 30 ft away we found calibration fluid.


Hey John, I sent ya a pm.



vizi

[swoardrider]

Ok guys, I think we can discuss this a little bit more in depth now.

RS4 injectors have a bad spray angle and cause cold morning fuel enrichment due to the partially burnt or raw fuel getting pumped out the turbo/exhaust.

S3 injectors... a much better option (proper spray angle).

RS4 vs S3 injector. For those that don't know, we have a test bench that we can test injectors at pressure on (its tied into our fuel pump dyno). Its been rigged up for adjustable voltage control for open or open close events (for those injectors that require both open and close voltage). I can only see injector spray pattern at this time, getting accurate flow results is going to take some sort of "collection" at the bottom of the tubes. The good thing about this, we can see and measure spray angle and cone diameter. The tubes are 8 inches in diameter that the injector sits on top of, so we an see the whole spray angle. The RS4 spray angle is way off and it appears to deliver more fuel at the bottom of the cone than at the top. The S3 injector is a perfect match to the OEM/stock injector. From the testing of the S3 and RS4 injector flow, the S3 injector appears to be delivering more fuel at 80 bar than the RS4 injector. I have not pushed the injectors to the full potential of 140 bar (not very comfortable with pressures this high), but from what we can tell the S3 or Golf Type R injector moves more volume than the RS4 injector.

Good news, we can modify the S3 injectors to move even more volume. I will have more details on this after the start of the year and we have the tool to take the injectors apart, so this will make things much easier now. I will keep everyone updated on the progress that we make with the injector.

Thanks,

John

Ha! I love it when I'm right. (see post #111) I don't know why you guys always doubt me [:p]

[viziers]

Ha! I love it when I'm right. (see post #111) I don't know why you guys always doubt me [:p]


''Ooooo blow it out your ass!!!" lol anyone know where that quote is from?


vizi

[Operator]

The Great Outdoors, one of my all-time favs!!

[shiro1745]

Thanks.

We can modify the RS4 injectors to correct the spray pattern, problem being it makes them much larger and there is not a tuning solution out there to address the additional flow (they are like 40% larger). The S3 injectors are very easy for us to come by and they are cheaper than the RS4's. You just have to know the part number for the US application :)

I'm a bit confused, I thought it was the other way around. S3 >$ RS4 injectors. Details please !!!

[Operator]

Like 3 posts up in the quote.

[shiro1745]

^ ^ I'm sorry I wasn't clear enough. I meant details on where we can find S3 injectors cheaper than RS4. like hpfpupgrade said:


Thanks.

We can modify the RS4 injectors to correct the spray pattern, problem being it makes them much larger and there is not a tuning solution out there to address the additional flow (they are like 40% larger). The S3 injectors are very easy for us to come by and they are cheaper than the RS4's. You just have to know the part number for the US application :)

And by the way, when you say US application .. you mean that an S3 here has different injectors than another in Europe? or where?

[jimrobbington]

^ ^ I'm sorry I wasn't clear enough. I meant details on where we can find S3 injectors cheaper than RS4. like hpfpupgrade said:



And by the way, when you say US application .. you mean that an S3 here has different injectors than another in Europe? or where?

Probably the part number to the exact same part, but produced in the us

JR

[hpfpupgrade]

I have yet to come by the funds for the rail valve lol I think I'll be swapping my KMD hpfp internals for the hpfpupgrade stage2 before I attempt any injector modifications. There's just no sense in upgrading them if I am stuck with a sub par hpfp ya know
John, have you tested the s3s compared to stock, iirc awe found that stock injectors flowed quite a bit... And if you could replicate the modifications to stock injectors it might save you even more money?

Yes I have flowed to the best of my ability the two injectors in question. Yes, the flow 18% more than the OEM units. Now, this is only at 80 bar of fuel pressure, from what I can tell they really shine at 140 bar (on car tested with another company). We can replicate the S3 spray pattern with OEM injectors (very easy). I just have to get them to flow an additional 2% so we can list them as a + 20% injector. Next... we are working on a + 30% injector after we have the testing done with the + 20's.