B6/B7 S4 Timing Chain FAQ / Information / Discussion Thread

[joeycuccaro]

The purpose of this thread is to create one central location for information, questions, answers, and discussion concerning the timing chain system used in the Audi B6/B7 S4.


General Information

Does my B6/B7 S4 have a Timing Chain or Timing Belt?
The quick answer is Timing Chain. The B6/B7 S4 4.2 liter power plant is a chain driven system. Other variations of the 4.2 liter V8 are belt driven which can be found in models such as the C5 A6 4.2.

Location of the Chain Driven System
Unlike the belt driven system which is located in the forward section of the motor, the chain system used in the B6/B7 S4 is positioned at the REAR of the motor facing the firewall.

http://www.nogaroblue.com/cars/s4v8.jpg

It's not your chain, its the Tensioners / Guides
When you hear of chain failure in the S4 motor it is in fact the cam adjusters, chain tensioners, and chain guides that wear out / break. There have been no issues to our knowledge of an actual chain snapping. Some cases include:

Bad Adjusters
Broken Tensioner
Worn / Broken Guides



Cold Start and the Infamous Rattle

During a cold start-up you might have heard a weird rattle coming from the engine at one point or another. Here is what the Audi TSB states for this issue:


The Camshaft Adjustment is hydraulically adjusted and controlled by the engine oil pressure. If the engine has been turned off for a long time, the oil pressure drops down and the oil partially flows back into the oil sump. To ensure an efficient camshaft adjustment right after an engine cold start, the oil pressure inside the camshaft adjusters must be built up as fast as possible. During this time, a rattle or knocking noise may be noticeable.

This noise is normal at engine start and will last until the oil pressure is fully built up, which takes about 1-2 seconds. There is no applicable production solution.


If you are hearing this noise it is considered "normal" by Audi. Whether us consumers feel it is normal for a 50k sports car, well that is up to you to determine. This does not necessarily mean that you will need your timing system serviced soon. However, it does hint that your tensioners might be worn.

How to combat the Start-up Rattle / Prolong Life of Timing Components?
Here are a couple tips to ease the start-up rattle / duration and to get the most out of your vital engine components

Frequent Oil Changes: A lot of members change their oil between 3,000-5,000 miles. Try and adopt a similar schedule , anything much over this range is considered too long.
NOTE: Frequent Oil changes will not PREVENT failure of the timing components, but help reduce wear on the guides


High Quality Oil: The oil is the life blood of your motor. It is recommend to use quality oil during oil changes. Our motors use 0w40 or 5w40. A couple popular brands include: Mobile 1 / Lubro Moly / Motul
Proper Care: If you want the maximum life out of your motor you have to take the necessary steps to take care of it. Allow proper warm up, don't beat on the car when it is cold and expect it to last forever. Keep up with scheduled maintenance and address issues as they arise.


Does this failure happen to all of the B6/B7 S4's?
The short and sweet answer is NO. Out of the thousands of S4's sold between the various platforms, only a small percentage of these cars have seen catastrophic failure resulting in service. However, although only a small number, it is something to consider and think about when purchasing this vehicle.

I have heard failure occurs at 100k miles, is this true?
There is no set mileage where failure is imminent. It is a case by case basis on these documented situations. We have seen some engines fail in as little as 40-50k miles and others well over 100k miles. There are a bunch of cars over 140k miles who have had no issues at all. However, several polls have yielded though that the mean average of failures from timing chain components occurs near or around the 100k mark.

Again, if you are considering a car with 100k miles this does not mean the engine is about to blow, but it is something to consider and keep in mind.


Symptoms / Codes: What needs to be replaced?

Cam Over-Advance Codes
If you are getting this fault code you will only need to replace the cam adjusters. This can be done WITHOUT removing the motor. It will be tight, but the cam adjusters can be replaced by removing the rear timing covers when the motor is still in the car.

Start-up Rattle
As stated before, Start-up rattle does not necessarily mean your timing components needs attention. Techniques such as frequent oil changes and quality oil can help this situation. However, if they progressively get worse the chances are they will attention in the near future.

Possible Causes-> Worn Tensioner, Failing Adjuster

Mis-Fires / Lack of Performance
If you start to experience lack of performance and Mis-Fires then the condition is progressively getting worse and will require attention soon.

Possible Causes-> Failing Tensioner, Failing Adjuster

Car is in limp mode
If your condition gets to the point where the car goes into limp mode than you have a serious problem that needs immediate attention. Stop driving the car and have it towed home or to a local dealer / indy shop. Further driving could result in more damage to your motor

Possible Causes-> Broken Tensioner, Broken Adjuster, Broken Tensioner Guide

Is you are having any of these symptoms please use this thread to ask any questions or make any comments. We will collectively try and help as much as we can with your issues. It is best to try and narrow down your problem before making decisions or assumptions.

Supplemental Pictures

Cracked / Broken Guides
http://i230.photobucket.com/albums/ee286/Jengel451/Broken_Tensioner.jpg
http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc4/hs1380.snc4/163241_488729573533_191449448533_5843479_1401051_n .jpg

Bad Cam Adjusters. Take notice to the second picture. The hole should be a perfect circle like the adjuster on the left. Notice the oval shape / wear created on the bad adjusters.
http://i770.photobucket.com/albums/xx344/audis4ification/P1020568.jpg
http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash2/hs380.ash2/65884_488730378533_191449448533_5843498_712826_n.j pg


Timing Chain Service

Is a motor pull required to service the Chain System?
If you need to do a full chain service the motor will need to be pulled from the car. Since the chain assembly is located at the rear of the motor is makes it impossible to access while in the car.

There have been individuals who have only had to replace the Cam Adjusters in their motor. This type of service can be done with the engine still in the car.

I. DIY Approach
These guides will help you service your timing chain system if you wish to go the route of doing it yourself. Keep in mind this is not something that you can knock out in a day. Plan accordingly and assume it will take you longer than a full weekend to complete. With a few hands to help and all weekend allocated, I feel this is something that can be done in two days start to finish.

ENGINE PULL DIY (http://www.*************.net/forum/showthread.php?t=3169)

TIMING CHAIN DIY (Will be available once i am able to get my hands on one)

Cost of Parts
Depending on your situation and your mechanical ability, the timing chain service price can fluctuate. At the bare minimum you are looking at the cost of the new parts if you plan on doing everything yourself. Here is a list of the parts required for a COMPLETE overhaul. Please note that you may not need to do everything listed here, such as the Cam Adjusters.

079109087N — Cam Adjuster [2]- $975
N91086201 — Cam Adjuster Bolt [2]- $14
079109210H — Control Housing - $650
079109204L — Control Housing - $650
079109092B — Control Housing Gasket [Bank 1]- $3
079109091B — Control Housing Gasket [Bank 2]- $3
079109218D — Chain Tensioner [Bank 1]- $100
079109217J — Chain Tensioner [Bank 2]- $100
079109510E — Tensioner Chain Guide [Bank 1]- $35
079109514B — Chain Guide [Bank 1] $30
079109513C — Chain Guide [Bank 2]- $35
079109469AD — Center Upper Chain Guide- $32
079109469AA — Left Lower Chain Guide- $32
079109510F — Left Lower Chain Guide- $30
079109507G — Lower Chain Tensioner/Guide assy- $58
079109467AE — Lower Chain Tensioner- $44
06E905163 — Cam Position Sensor [Bank 1& 2]- $13 x 2 = $26
079109293C — Hydraulic Controller Seal [2]- $6
079131120A — Coolant/SAP Gasket- $8
079109139A — Center Lower Gasket- $5
079131120B — Kombi Valve Gasket [Pipe 2 timing cover]- $3
078131120K — Kombi Valve Gasket [Valve 2 valve]- $3
079105193 — Diamond Disc Washer [2]- $130
035906149A — Fuel Injector Seal Set [8]- $10
077129717Q — Intake Manifold Gaskets [2]- $70
077198025B — Valve Cover Gasket Kit [Bank 1: 1-4]- $55
077198025C — Valve Cover Gasket Kit [Bank 2: 5-8]- $55
079115111A — Oil Filter Housing Seal [Double O-Ring]- $4
N90959701 — Oil Filter Housing Seal [single O-Ring]- $3
********* — Rear Water Manifold O-Rings [2]- $2

[B]Chains- Optional
079109229 — Timing Chain Center Upper- $98
079109229D — Timing Chain Center Lower- $88
079109229K — Timing Chain Upper Left- $98
079109229L — Timing Chain Upper Right- $98

REQUIRED SPECIAL TOOLS
To complete the timing chain service you will need a few special tools:

Crank holder / Pin
2 x Trim Wedge
1 x Multi-point Socket
1 x Pair of Camshaft Locators
1 x Setting Gauge.

Parts can be purchased HERE (http://jhmotorsports.com/shop/catalog/cam-tensioner-and-chain-tools-new-for-b6-b7-s4-p-660.html?osCsid=7ecc732232d95ac329d2ba3b1ea7a16f) for $350 or rented HERE (http://jhmotorsports.com/shop/catalog/cam-tensioner-and-chain-tools-rental-for-b6-b7-s4-p-661.html?osCsid=7ecc732232d95ac329d2ba3b1ea7a16f) for $150
http://jhmotorsports.com/shop/catalog/images/B6-B7_S4_42L_V8_Cam_Chain_Tensioner_Tools.jpg

Based on the list prices above the Total Cost of a complete overhaul for PARTS ONLY (No Tools) will be:
A. Slightly above $3,000 with the Cam Adjusters
B. Right around $2,000 without the Cam Adjusters

Therefore, if you plan to do all of the work yourself you can have it done for the cost of parts you replace.

II. Shop / Dealer Approach

What should i expect to pay to have a shop do the labor?
The cost of having this job done is going to vary from place to place. Each shop has a different labor rate which will effect the amount you will pay to have it done. We have seen quotes for this service for as little as $5,000 and some quotes over $10,000. Again, it all depends on the shops labor rate and the parts being replaced.

One recommendation we have is to have this job done by an experienced Indy or Audi dealership who have done this type of work before. It is a very tedious and involved service that should be completed by experienced technicians. This job is far to costly and time consuming to have it done incorrectly or faulty.

This service seems really expensive, Can't I just buy a used motor for less?
In some cases it may very well be cheaper to buy a used motor to replace the current engine that needs a timing service done. However, be aware that there is no guarantee that the used motor will or will not need a timing chain service of its own in the future. A lot of people will pay the extra cost of the service for peace of mind knowing that their timing components are freshly updated. In the end it is up to you on which route you want to take.

Used motors with lower miles can be had in the range of $2500-$5000. The price will reflect the miles, condition, warranty (if applicable), and the components coming with the motor (bare or complete long block).

Buying a used motor instead?

Make sure the motor has a leak-down and compression test
Try and find a motor with low miles
Warranties are always a plus for used motors


My motor is out for the Timing Chain Service, what else should / can i do?
With the motor out of the car there is an opportunity to take care of maintenance, modifications, and other failing parts that are far easier with the motor out. Here are some items to consider with the motor out:

Maintenance:
Clutch and Flywheel
Motor Mounts
Engine Components (Starter / Compressor / Alternator / PS Pump)
Serpentine Belt
Valve Cover Gaskets
Spark Plugs


Modifications:
JHM Headers / Aftermarket Downpipes
JHM Intake Manifold / Spacers
JHM Oil Cooler
JHM Crank Pulley
Snub Mount
JHM Shifter Trio


[B]
RESOURCES AND GUIDES

ENGINE PULL DIY (http://www.*************.net/forum/showthread.php?t=3169)

Replacing the Bank 2 Cam Adjuster VIDEO (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AiTiJ5mnvQ4)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AiTiJ5mnvQ4

Please note that a bunch of this information is a collective effort from the community. Thanks to all for the helpful information to make this thread possible. If you would like something added please post up what you would like incorporated. If you feel something needs to be changed, feel free to comment.

[B6JoeS4]

Awesome Joey. hopefully Anthony will unblock the EA link so people can figure out how to pull their motors [:)]

[Hazziar]

Great effort putting this together man, very solid info [up]

If you want, you can embed my video on documenting the bank2 timing service with engine in chassis for reference on the alternative to removing the engine for timing work on the heads.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AiTiJ5mnvQ4

[earthtodan]

Rated 5 stars

[jaspirr]

Very helpful, thanks!

[joeycuccaro]

Great effort putting this together man, very solid info [up]

If you want, you can embed my video on documenting the bank2 timing service with engine in chassis for reference on the alternative to removing the engine for timing work on the heads.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AiTiJ5mnvQ4

Awesome! Thanks for letting me throw this in there.

[kelseysautobody]

Great write up! Informative and to the point. It's too bad there isn't more of this on the site.

[BCsniper]

Really good of you to put this all together.


It seems everyone not in the B6/7 crowd is out of the loop on this one and don't know quite the specifics.....all they know is that "this one time I read somewhere that S4 chains go bad at 100k miles"

[buffalony]

Incase anyone is curious i called axis motorsports and they do not have any of the parts in question...

[UnstableOS]

This is the only place you need to go for any part. The prices are fair and the customer service is great. Obviously better deals may be available on parts, but if you need something and need it to be right, GAP is a good place to go.

http://www.genuinevwaudiparts.com

[joeycuccaro]

Incase anyone is curious i called axis motorsports and they do not have any of the parts in question...

Hmm... Thanks for checking up on that. I took another members word for that as i shuffled through the threads.

[joeycuccaro]

Does anyone know the part numbers for the required tools for the timing chain service? Would be a great addition to this thread.

[CHECKERED]

How to combat the Start-up Rattle / Prolong Life of Timing Components?
Here are a couple tips to ease the start-up rattle / duration and to get the most out of your vital engine components

Frequent Oil Changes: A lot of members change their oil between 3,000-5,000 miles. Try and adopt a similar schedule , anything much over this range is considered too long.
High Quality Oil: The oil is the life blood of your motor. It is recommend to use quality oil during oil changes. Our motors use 0w40 or 5w40. A couple popular brands include: Mobile 1 / Lubro Moly / Motul

Proper Care: If you want the maximum life out of your motor you have to take the necessary steps to take care of it. Allow proper warm up, don't beat on the car when it is cold and expect it to last forever. Keep up with scheduled maintenance and address issues as they arise.
I would point out that frequent oil changes will only help prevent wear to the guides, not the failure of the guides, tensioners or cam adjusters, those are a factory hardware issue not a poor maintenance issue.

[joeycuccaro]

^ Made it more clear. Thanks

[guardsredcoupe]

Many thanks to Joey for this very helpful data. A few items on this parts list needs to be updated, however:

P/N 079109210H has been superceded by 079109210L.
P/N 079109510F has been superceded by 079109510M
The Cam Position Sensors for bank 1 & 2 are not the same P/N, they should be:
06E905163 Camshaft sensor 4.2 LITER Left
06C905163B Camshaft sensor 4.2 LITER Right
The Coolant/SAP Gasket for the driver’s (left) side timing chain cover is listed (079131120A), but the similar gasket for the passenger’s (right) side is missing from the list. That part number is 079131120. (for reference, see here (http://www.jimellisaudiparts.com/showAssembly.aspx?ukey_assembly=753120))
The part number for the Rear Water Manifold O-Rings, which is missing in the listing, is N90989503

In the following, all pricing is from GAP (http://genuineaudiparts.com).

So, the updated parts list is:



079109087N — Cam Adjuster [2]- $1109.30
N91086201 — Cam Adjuster Bolt [2]- $10.92
079109210L — Control Housing [Bank 1]- $757.64
079109204L — Control Housing [Bank 2]- $757.64
079109092B — Control Housing Gasket [Bank 1]- $7.44
079109091B — Control Housing Gasket [Bank 2]- $7.44
079109218D — Chain Tensioner [Bank 1]- $127.22
079109217J — Chain Tensioner [Bank 2]- $127.22
079109510E — Tensioner Chain Guide [Bank 1]- $52.27
079109514B — Chain Guide [Bank 1] $24.92
079109513C — Chain Guide [Bank 2]- $24.92
079109469AD — Center Upper Chain Guide- $37.08
079109469AA — Left Lower Chain Guide- $37.08
079109510M — Left Lower Chain Guide- $59.15
079109507G — Lower Chain Tensioner/Guide assy- $59.15
079109467AE — Lower Chain Tensioner- $50.96
06E905163 — Cam Position Sensor [Left]- $21.02
06C905163B — Cam Position Sensor [Right]- $32.18
079109293C — Hydraulic Controller Seal [2]- $17.60
079131120A — Coolant/SAP Gasket- $12.70
079131120 - Coolant/SAP Gasket- $12.70
079109139A — Center Lower Gasket- $9.90
079131120B — Kombi Valve Gasket [Pipe 2 timing cover]- $7.87
078131120K — Kombi Valve Gasket [Valve 2 valve]- $3.72
079105193 — Diamond Disc Washer [2]- $116.06
035906149A — Fuel Injector Seal Set [8]- $23.28
077129717Q — Intake Manifold Gaskets [2]- $36.08
077198025B — Valve Cover Gasket Kit [Bank 1: 1-4]- $46.13
077198025C — Valve Cover Gasket Kit [Bank 2: 5-8]- $46.13
079115111A — Oil Filter Housing Seal [Double O-Ring]- $5.46
N90959701 — Oil Filter Housing Seal [single O-Ring]- $1.24
N90989503 — Rear Water Manifold O-Rings [2]- $3.84






TOTAL: $3646.26



In the following illustration, the blue numbers correspond to the numbers in the list above. View Full Size (http://www.jonhanson.net/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/AllParts.gif)

http://www.jonhanson.net/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/AllParts2.png

Also, make sure you pick up a good supply of your favorite Gasket Silicone Sealant, because you will need it when you replace the various covers. The Audi sealant is P/N D176501A1, $15.07.

Although it was not in this list, it may be prudent to replace the rear seal, P/N 079103051F, $28.09

If you have not replaced your Fuel Injector Pintle Caps, you will probably need to since they often break on removal. There are 8 per engine and are available at JHM (http://jhmotorsports.com/shop/catalog/injector-pintle-cap-each-for-b6-b7-s4-p-630.html).

Note that the Cam Position Sensors, Valve Cover Gasket Kits, Fuel Injector O-Rings, (and perhaps other components) can be purchased from other audizine advertisers at a cost savings. Additionally, JHM has complete timing kits available, see this post (http://www.audizine.com/forum/showthread.php/486552-**New-from-JHM-Timing-Chain-Service-Kits-for-the-B6-B7-S4-4-2L-V8!**).

Sunset Audi (http://www.sunsetaudiparts.com) is able to source the Special Tools:

The complete list of special tools is:



T40237 – Crank Holder - $11.75
3409 – Trim Wedge (2) - $9.20
T40046 – Camshaft Lock - $155.00
T40047 – Setting Gauge - $99.00
T10035 – Multipoint Socket - $25.00
T40049 – Key Wrench - $54.90





TOTAL – $354.85
Total without the Multipoint Socket and Key Wrench (see below): $275.85



The Multipoint Socket is simply a 14mm Triple Square. A 10mm Triple Square is used for the CV joints, so my advice would be to purchase a triple square set instead of the special tool. This set (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0019COW5W) worked well for me.

The crankshaft Key Wrench is not necessary if the serpentine belt is installed: the crankshaft can easily be turned by turning the alternator pulley with a 24mm socket.

I have these tools.


Now, the following is personal opinion and others will certainly have differing opinions, which is fine. To each his own:

I believe that replacing this entire list of parts is overkill. I have not read any account of the chains breaking or stretching. I’ve only read of the Electric Cam Adjuster Actuators failure as a result of physical damage resulting from mechanical adjuster. The chains and electric adjusters (along with Diamond disc washers when you replace the electric adjusters) are pricey items, and I would leave them out of a repair job if cost was a concern.

On the other hand is mechanical cam adjusters and Left Lower Chain Guide (P/N 079109469AA) which often fail. [headbang] There is also a picture above of the Bank 2 Tensioner (P/N 079109217J) having failed. I would always include these items in a repair job, along with all the new gaskets.

Now whether the rest of the guides and tensioners need to be replaced is a judgment call. I haven’t seen pictures of the rest of them having failed, so I’m a little dubious about whether they need to be replaced. If there are pictures that I’ve missed of failed guides/tensioners, by all means, post them here for reference.

And, if you repair budget can handle it and you want the peace of mind, by all means replace everything.

Of course, I am just a guy on the internet, so you should consult with your Professional Mechanic before taking any of my advice.[:D]

[buck15]

Joey - Thanks for putting this together!

Questions:

Should anybody be concerned if they get the rattle restarting warm car, if you turn off completely warm car and restart it 20 minutes later and get rattle?

Is there any signs in the timing advance numbers that would provide early detection of timing issue?

Is there any numbers for amount of miles people have had timing rattle before having failure?

[Monops87]

Is Using the special tools difficult? Is it hard to adjust the timing to the correct position?

[guardsredcoupe]

Please not that I added an illustration above that cross references the parts.



Should anybody be concerned if they get the rattle restarting warm car, if you turn off completely warm car and restart it 20 minutes later and get rattle?


The chain rattle results from the pressure bleeding off that is supposed to pressurize the tensioners. Each time the chain rattles, it puts some stress on the timing system, so the answer really depends on how you use your car. Let's assume that you start your car twice a day to go to work and back. It's really the same whether you get a rattle after 20 minutes or after 4 hours. It still puts stress on the timing system twice a day. However, if you start your car 10 times a day and your pressure bleeds off in 20 minutes, you'll get chain rattle 10 times. If instead your pressure bled off in 4 hours, starting the car 10 times a day would only results in chain rattle on the first start.



Is there any signs in the timing advance numbers that would provide early detection of timing issue?


I think I've read that the VAG-COM can give you the angle that your timing is advanced by.


Is Using the special tools difficult? Is it hard to adjust the timing to the correct position?

The Bentley manual gives step by step instructions in adjusting the timing. If you can get the engine out of the car, you won't have any problem using the special tools.

[mlittleton]

Best thread I've seen on this yet. Very thorough and informative. Thanks Joey!!

[buck15]

"I think I've read that the VAG-COM can give you the angle that your timing is advanced by."

What numbers would be out of range with timing advance? I have seen -5 to 43

[Monops87]

If using the vagcom how can I for sure tell that i have a cam adjuster problem. I read something I think it said 091 092 093 and log those. I'm not sure.. The codes I'm getting are p0300 p0301 p0303 an p1340 .. I'm not getting a timing over advance code nor am I getting a whole bank of cyl misfires. Confused

[tampas4]

part number for the exhaust cam sprocket bolt(number 62 in the diagram)? Bently says that has to be free spinning and needs to be replaced if removed. Also where can I find a complete parts diagram for the B6 s4, I read somewhere that you can get an ETKA login for free but can't find it?

[guardsredcoupe]

part number for the exhaust cam sprocket bolt(number 62 in the diagram)? Bently says that has to be free spinning and needs to be replaced if removed. Also where can I find a complete parts diagram for the B6 s4, I read somewhere that you can get an ETKA login for free but can't find it?

The P/N is N90981001, which is part number 62 (numbered in black) in the illustration above. I've had reasonable success looking at the parts diagram available from JimEllisAudiParts.com (http://www.jimellisaudiparts.com).

[B6JoeS4]

You can get a pirated version of ETKA on eBay. Mine works great

[Mrbell845]

What is the part # for the mechanical cam adjusters?

[Tropicgreena4]

would it be of any value to put a link to the "Solution to chain rattle" thread in this thread?

[guardsredcoupe]

What is the part # for the mechanical cam adjusters?

079109087N


would it be of any value to put a link to the "Solution to chain rattle" thread in this thread?

The solution to chain rattle (http://www.audizine.com/forum/showthread.php/484653-The-solution-to-chain-rattle)

[Mrbell845]

I need help please. I have 2005 a6 4.2. Left side out of timing. I had shop replace all guides, tensioners and chains. 2 guides were broken. The right side is timed perfectly. But the left side cam isn't moving. They think it's either the cam adjuster, the control housing or the camshaft itselfl. What are your suggestions . Thanks

[guardsredcoupe]

I need help please. I have 2005 a6 4.2. Left side out of timing. I had shop replace all guides, tensioners and chains. 2 guides were broken. The right side is timed perfectly. But the left side cam isn't moving. They think it's either the cam adjuster, the control housing or the camshaft itselfl. What are your suggestions . Thanks

You mean the camshaft will not rotate? I assume they have the crank holder installed correctly?
Remove the cam adjuster and see if the camshaft will rotate. If not, remove the control housing and see if it will rotate. IMHO you should definitely be replacing both camshaft adjusters while you have your engine out.

[BCsniper]

You can get a pirated version of ETKA on eBay. Mine works great


That's it Joe. I am calling the POlice

[Mrbell845]

Correct. The camshaft will not rotate. They said they believe there is a mechanism inside the control housing that is supposed to lock but isn't. I'll have them do what you've recommended. Before I purchase the control housing.and I also will definitely change both adjusted like you said. Thanks much

[Mrbell845]

Are the cam adjusters for the 2005 s4 the same as the 2005 a6 4.2?

[EUROSWAGR]

Are the cam adjusters for the 2005 s4 the same as the 2005 a6 4.2?

ETKA shows two part numbers for the adjusters that I assume are suitable substitutes or updated versions

This is for 4.2l V8 engine code BAS

079 109 087 E replaced by 079 109 087 J, which genuineaudiparts says the replacement for the J part# is the below N part#
and the adjuster (079 109 087 N) from above are listed.

So long story short...YES

[scherbad]

Under low throttle I can hear the movement of the chain, not metal on metal but quite simply the sound of a moving chain.. My question is if everything is running efficiently, should I be able to hear this from the cabin? As I get past 3000 rpm the engine sound overpowers the sound of the chain.

I have not had my S4 for very long, nor have I ever been in a brand new one. So I am unsure as what is normal.

[guardsredcoupe]

No, you should not hear chain. If the tensioners are working properly, there will be no slack in the chain. All the movements - pivoting of the links, links meeting sprockets, and chain moving over over the guides/tensioners - should make no chain sounds in the presence of oil.

However, there are straight cut gears in there that are notoriously noisy, maybe that's what you're hearing?

I wouldn't get too worked up about it... with a new (to you) engine, it's easy to fret over unrecognized sounds.

[scherbad]

Its super easy to fret about these engines lol. Thanks for the reply. The engine just rolled over 200,000 kms so I would presume there to be some tension wear. It could very well be the gears if you say they are noisy.

Just trying to prevent future problems! Not a whole lot one can do, other than oil maintenance, right?

[ReeS4e]

I'm getting some chatter from my clutch at about 85K miles, so I'm thinking of doing the timing chain service with the clutch. Based on the recommendation in this thread, it seems the preferred approach is to skip the electric cam adjuster and chains. That being said, it sounds like JHM's Intermediate kit is the way to go.
See here. (http://jhmotorsports.com/shop/catalog/jhm-timing-chain-service-kit-for-b6-b7-s4-intermediate-p-1083.html?cPath=21_56_61_240)
Sound right? Any thoughts on the quality of JHM parts?

Thanks

[MaudiS4]

Some good information for a DIY.

http://audi.workshop-manuals.com/a4-cabriolet-mk2/index.php?id=3048

[teamraw]

Question:
On the Driver side bank, i can move the chain just a little bit and on the passenger-side Bank I can't move it at all ??? Anybody know if these is normal

[Omerta]

Link to the engine pull DIY is dead. Care to update?

[BCsniper]

go over to audirevolution.net and it should still be up.

Also I think Justincredible's motor tear down will show the removal and it's here on AZ

[jeffrey146]

Why is the OPs account terminated? Subscribed to thread for sure.

[S4toA4]

If you have a good running motor that you are pulling to be swapped into another car, what timing components would you change while the engine is out?

[BCsniper]

Everything but the chains is what I'd recommend:

Tensioners
Guides
Mechanical Adjusters
Electric Adjusters

plus all seals, o-rings, etc


If you just want the necessary avoid the adjusters as they add in ALOT to your final cost. That being said, if you do only buy the necessary, check your mechanical adjusters to see if they show wear like others have seen. If they look like this then you'll definitely want to spend the money to replace them

http://i770.photobucket.com/albums/xx344/audis4ification/P1020568.jpg

[cooltj50]

Anybody have info, link, or pics of a work shop manual for replacing Bank 2 Cam Adjuster/Timing Chain?

[cheetah993]

If you have to replace the chain on that side then the engine has to be removed to do so. The Bentley manual shows a great procedure on how to do it, and if you need to remove the engine then Joey from Euroaddiction has a great write up here:

http://www.euroaddiction.net/forum/b6-b7-s4-diy-how-section/3169-b6-b7-s4-diy-complete-engine-pull-guide.html

If you want more info and pics, you can look at my engine pull here:

http://www.audizine.com/forum/showthread.php/533079-My-Engine-Removal

And shamless plug if you need the timing tools (which you will to remove the adjuster and chains) I have them for sale in the classifieds section [:D] PM me if you have any questions about it.

[brownie711_4.2]

Very informative and pretty much cemented what I didn't want to believe.. timing chain fail....

[Omerta]

Can the engine be lowered on the subframe to save time if you have a lift?

[jmcS4]

Can the engine be lowered on the subframe to save time if you have a lift?

Yup

[Omerta]

Yup

Good stuff. Can the tensioners and guides be replaced without removing the chains/resetting the timing? Looking to do a quick refresh on them.

[gcoy]

Good stuff. Can the tensioners and guides be replaced without removing the chains/resetting the timing? Looking to do a quick refresh on them.

No, the chains come off. & timing gets set.

It is intimidating looking at the pictures! Once you are in there and you study the system things are not so bad. I did this job in my garage w no lift. I just took my time.

I can post the procedure of changing guides and tensioners if that would help...

[gcoy]

In fact, I was one day away from shipping my engine to JHM and having them do the chain service.
I pulled the motor using Joeys pull guide.


I talked to another member who had just done this service (cheetah993) His advice to me was. "If you got this far you CAN do the rest".

All I needed was that push over the cliff and pull the rear engine covers & the rest is now history.

http://www.audizine.com/forum/showthread.php/553095-Attn-all-Chain-Warriors-I-need-help-removing-rear-timing-cover?p=8960511&highlight=rear+covers#post8960511

[Omerta]

No, the chains come off. & timing gets set.

It is intimidating looking at the pictures! Once you are in there and you study the system things are not so bad. I did this job in my garage w no lift. I just took my time.

I can post the procedure of changing guides and tensioners if that would help...

Time is my limiting factor. I don't want to run out and and get caught with my pants down the the repair. Re-timing the engine is the most sensitive time consuming part that requires more special tools.

[Qtip]

I work at an Audi dealership in sales. I purchased my 04 model 2 years ago in February with 59,000 miles on it. The car is clean and solid. At around 69k I started to hear the chain rattle at start up. One of our master techs advised me that there was no way to eliminate it once it began. I switched from the factory Castrol to Amsoil. The car was IMMEDIATELY quiet upon start up. It has not returned and now has 83k on the clock!

[Jake@JHM]

I am willing to bet money that you have a cracked guide.

Jake

[earthtodan]

My 04 makes noise intermittently, but I barely hear it anymore. When I had Rector pull the engine last year to replace the rear seal, I was able to look at the guides and they weren't cracked.

[Crusty128]

I work at an Audi dealership in sales. I purchased my 04 model 2 years ago in February with 59,000 miles on it. The car is clean and solid. At around 69k I started to hear the chain rattle at start up. One of our master techs advised me that there was no way to eliminate it once it began. I switched from the factory Castrol to Amsoil. The car was IMMEDIATELY quiet upon start up. It has not returned and now has 83k on the clock!

which grade ?

[gcoy]

My 04 makes noise intermittently, but I barely hear it anymore. When I had Rector pull the engine last year to replace the rear seal, I was able to look at the guides and they weren't cracked.

You did't need to pull the motor to change the rear seal. Just drop the transmission.

So, you went to all that work, plus removing the rear covers, and didn't change your guides or tensioners??

[Qtip]

which grade ?

Full-SAPS Synthetic 5W-40 European EFMQT, gray bottle with black label.

[Qtip]

I am willing to bet money that you have a cracked guide.

Jake

I wouldn't bet against you, Jake. Obviously, the service will need to be done at some point in time but for now, ignorance is bliss. If the rattle returns in spite of the 'fix', I will know to agressively pursue a more permanent repair. I'm hoping I have a little time to to allow me to purchase your shift trio, tune & exhaust, and suspension upgrade. The 60:40 quattro split differential also has my attention and finally the transmission 1-2 collar and 6th gear replacement.

$3000 for a timing chain service with no appreciable performance improvement is a lot to swallow with all the other goodies tempting me.

[Jake@JHM]

I wouldn't bet against you, Jake. Obviously, the service will need to be done at some point in time but for now, ignorance is bliss. If the rattle returns in spite of the 'fix', I will know to agressively pursue a more permanent repair. I'm hoping I have a little time to to allow me to purchase your shift trio, tune & exhaust, and suspension upgrade. The 60:40 quattro split differential also has my attention and finally the transmission 1-2 collar and 6th gear replacement.

$3000 for a timing chain service with no appreciable performance improvement is a lot to swallow with all the other goodies tempting me.

I completely understand [up]. Let me know if you have any questions!

Jake

[earthtodan]

You did't need to pull the motor to change the rear seal. Just drop the transmission.

So, you went to all that work, plus removing the rear covers, and didn't change your guides or tensioners??

Well it was done under extended warranty so I didn't question it too much.

I explained to them that the timing chain tensioners tend to break, and that I'd be interested in replacing them. They said they'd never seen the problem before, and that it would be an extra $2000 of work (not covered under warranty of course). They really tried to talk me out of it. It was pretty surprising given everything I've read on AZ, but I didn't have much money at the time, and I thought, well, you don't hear about all the cars with no problems. So I skipped it.

[gcoy]

Well it was done under extended warranty so I didn't question it too much.

I explained to them that the timing chain tensioners tend to break, and that I'd be interested in replacing them. They said they'd never seen the problem before, and that it would be an extra $2000 of work (not covered under warranty of course). They really tried to talk me out of it. It was pretty surprising given everything I've read on AZ, but I didn't have much money at the time, and I thought, well, you don't hear about all the cars with no problems. So I skipped it.

I totally understand the warranty issue.

Looks to me like the shop knew it was a warranty job and milked the labor.

That is just my opinion.

[pandapod]

So I hate to muddy this thread with my own questions, but figured it'd be better than starting a brand new one. I just bought an 05.5 S4 (build date 05/05) with 138k miles on it (this car actually had 92k on it a year ago, dude I bought it from put 45K on it in a year). I got it for a decent price with the intention of having the timing chain guides/tensioners replaced for roughly $4k by my local audi expert (small shop but great work). I'd buy the Basic kit from JHM and my local guy would do all the work, and purchase any additional parts if needed (hoping none are needed!).

So my question is: Do i go ahead with the preventative maintenance or no PM? It seems like this is a sporadic event and I do not want to shell out this kind of money for a PM job that might not even need it. Will the damage inflicted due to skipped timing be worth the cost to do the PM, or can I just rebuild whatever valves (if any) once the guide/tensioner/adjuster fails? If it's gonna cost me $4,000 in PM that i may not need, do you guys think it would be wise to just wait until it fails completely and have it rebuilt? Even if that means $6,000-8,000 later down the line (one years two years 3, who knows?)...I cannot hear a rattle on start-up, but that could be due to an exhaust leak I have. The guy i bought it from says it has it, so i assume it's there.

My daily driver is an '04 A6 3.0 with 178.5k on the clock and climbing. I've already dumped a ton of money into this one and it should last me awhile, so i wont be driving the B7 every day (mostly in the summer). In fact, I'm currently scared to drive the S4 because of the timing issue, and I'm wondering if I'm just being paranoid (and I also need to register it).

So go for the PM or no? I'm gonna bring it in to the shop once I get it registered to at least fix the exhaust, and have them check over some other things. Should I stick with this plan for now and have my shop do a compression/leak down test (and prob boroscope for cylinder walls) then evaluate from there? I really would like to just put new oil in her and call it a day, and once the timing goes just fix it then.

Thanks for the guidance ahead of time...if this isnt the right place to post this i'll create a new thread...

[sea_shackF1]

...if this isnt the right place to post this i'll create a new thread...

Please don't, there are FAR too many already. Even if this is the wrong place, best to keep it clean as you said. There are many, many other existing threads that would be better for ANOTHER discussion about this as they can get long.


I'm currently scared to drive the S4 because of the timing issue..

SMH [=(] Please don't be. Hopefully this helps..........


Should I stick with this plan for now and have my shop do a compression/leak down test (and prob boroscope for cylinder walls) then evaluate from there? I really would like to just put new oil in her and call it a day, and once the timing goes just fix it then.

This is a much better place to start rather than fixing something that's not broken and may or may not break in the future.

Best to read up on the issue first as there is TONS of info about it. Learn what to look for and videos for how it sounds vs other sounds. Open the hood and you still should be able to hear the rattle over the exhaust if you do have it.

A word of caution when asking about this problem. With little to no info about your actual issue some will suggest you just suck it up and get the work done. Hey, it's not their money right? Those people seem to have no problem spending YOURS. If there is an actual problem though, many here prefer to troubleshoot FIRST. Start out with the easy or cheap fixes first, ie pcv for oil consumption increase problem.

Rattle can be considered 'normal' if it only lasts 1-2 seconds on cold start in cold weather or when the car has been sitting for a couple days. If the problems lasts longer than 3 sec and happens all the time during warm start up and warm weather, also if it throws CEL’s or runs rough then that is not good and needs to be looked into.

There have been a VERY small number that have required needing the timing components serviced which is very labor intensive and therefore expensive. I would caution that when reading up on this issue to take into account that a lot of the people with the problem have come here looking for info and help. This has made it seem the problem is much more frequent than it actually is. That then caused a ton of stress for many current owners, the thread then feeds on itself making the problem seem even more wide spread. Some cars have been abused and dumped, others were healthy but dumped because of fear of this issue. In some cases it’s one car but multiple owners which also makes the problem seem more widespread than it really is. Make no mistake about it, the problem is real, but there are very few people that even know of someone that had the problem, let alone experience it themselves. Early B6’s seem to be effected most and later B7’s the least since the components were updated.

Some have had the service done whether by necessity, as ‘preventative maintenance’ or because they didn’t like the sound only to have the rattle return even with the new and updated components. As said by others, it’s just a bad design. Do some research, learn about the issue and try not to stress out about a problem that most likely (hopefully [;)] ) will not be an actual problem on your specific car.

I personally see no reason to spend $4+ to fix a car that is showing no symptoms of a problem. Yes there have been some that seemingly didn't show any signs before failing, but again they are the exception and not the rule. It's your car, your money and your nights sleep so you can do what you want though. Either way good luck with the car and for god sakes DRIVE and ENJOY IT!!! [drive] [:D] [hail] V8 [s4] [up]

[audi05A8]

So the other day I got a few cam position sensor codes (P0345 and P0340) for both bank 1 and bank 2. Now my car is not missfiring and it still runs good except I can feel a little hesitation at times and it seems a little slugish but for the most part it is running good, the biggest change that I noticed since the codes came on is that the car is a lot louder under load. Under heavy accelaration it sounds a lot like there is a hole in the intake or exhaust. Now I have read quite a bit and it is pretty abviuos what needs to be done but before I start the tear down I was wondering if there is any chance that the sensors might be bad or something in the wiring and if there is a way to test them.

[staubach333]

So the other day I got a few cam position sensor codes (P0345 and P0340) for both bank 1 and bank 2. Now my car is not missfiring and it still runs good except I can feel a little hesitation at times and it seems a little slugish but for the most part it is running good, the biggest change that I noticed since the codes came on is that the car is a lot louder under load. Under heavy accelaration it sounds a lot like there is a hole in the intake or exhaust. Now I have read quite a bit and it is pretty abviuos what needs to be done but before I start the tear down I was wondering if there is any chance that the sensors might be bad or something in the wiring and if there is a way to test them.
My car threw the same codes, and had the exact same symptoms. Here's what broke:http://www.audizine.com/forum/showthread.php/580235-Updated-repair-process-pics-Timing-guide-failure

[audi05A8]

Crap, that is what I thought is going on with it. Does anyone know what my car is worth right now with about 145K on the clock with these symptoms? It has new tires and brand new clutch.

[gcoy]

That's a pretty tough question for us to answer.
Its like asking, My wife has slept with half the town, but she has a new boob job, & only weighs 115lbs. How hot do you think she is??
(just joking w you) :)

[lathdogg]

That's a pretty tough question for us to answer.
Its like asking, My wife has slept with half the town, but she has a new boob job, & only weighs 115lbs. How hot do you think she is??
(just joking w you) :)

Or better yet, how willing are you to sleep with a hot chick that has slept with half the town? She might have a cracked guide!

[staubach333]

That's a pretty tough question for us to answer.
Its like asking, My wife has slept with half the town, but she has a new boob job, & only weighs 115lbs. How hot do you think she is??
(just joking w you) :)
Haha that's too funny!

[audi05A8]

Yeah I understand it's tough to answer. Any ideas, any range where it would be with an issue like this? Like I said it is 2005 with 145k 6spd dolphin grey on black, interior is about 8 or 9, exterior about 7 or 8 with a few door dings. I am trying to get some kind of idea bc I might be putting it in the classifieds here.

[SliverJay]

Yeah I understand it's tough to answer. Any ideas, any range where it would be with an issue like this? Like I said it is 2005 with 145k 6spd dolphin grey on black, interior is about 8 or 9, exterior about 7 or 8 with a few door dings. I am trying to get some kind of idea bc I might be putting it in the classifieds here.
For the right price right and timing this is something I would jump on if it was an avant. I would think someone would buy it and build it for stage 2.

[audi05A8]

That is what I am thinking to find someone that has the time and expertise to get this car back in shape. To me this seems like huge project but for someone that did a couple of them it might not be a big deal. Overall the car is great shape but I dont have the time to mess with a big project like this. What would you say it would be worth without this issue bc I am thinking the repair seems to be about $2000-$3000.

[MrRay904]

Great Work, this was by the far the most detailed Forum on on the timing chain issue. [hail]

[sparkhed]

It's been a long few days for us. Our 05 b6 has had the cold start for two years and its always been on my mind. Wife says "you need to listen to the car". So Saturday evening we decide that we will take some time Sunday to poke around and see what we can find. I have changed out the entire front control arms, front pads and roters, replaced serpent belt and snub, fuel filter and a few other thing. I am not a mechanic but love to wrench. I was hoping for the best but expecting the worse. Intake flapper makes a little noise. Injectors rattle like a power stroke. Valve train is almost as bad but the new noise is killing me! Towed her to our trusty Indy, wait two days while debating with myself as to which level of timing set I will purchase from JHM. Get the call and the noise is coming from the timing as I suspected. Point of post, has anyone bought this stuff from GAP or somewhere else? Intermeidiate plus is what I decided to go with but JHM couldn't take order yesterday due to computers down? I need to get wife back on the road. This Lexus we borrowed from a fried is terrible!!! Any ideas? $2700 is a hard pill to swallow for a box of parts. Could I save a few buck buying somewhere else? I want high quality updated parts. Only want to do this once! Thanks!

[glebtcheb]

You don't need Intermediate Plus - Intermediate is enough.

You will never need new chains.

I just had this service done, after swapping the engine with a used (less 70K miles) one. I actually bought the minimal (which doesn't exist anymore - but basic has a lot more to offer now - and got the rest of the parts directly from Audi)

Sure it's a hard pill to swallow, just pay it, document everything (with pictures, videos, etc.) and hope that one of us will be successful in its class action test case (I am intending to do one in Canada, which will ultimately extend to AoA)... These chain guides (at least one of them) are(is) failing at the exact same spot starting at less than 40,000 miles, plus Audi has revised these parts starting in their '07 year ++ B7 models, proving their knowledge of this engineering flaw... behind the backs of their previous owners (us) and at their expense (our expense)... If we all document this and prove our point, we will be compensated.

Good Luck!

[BCsniper]

......pipe dream right there



good going on getting your car back running though! [up]

[brooklynA42004]

Well it was done under extended warranty so I didn't question it too much.

I explained to them that the timing chain tensioners tend to break, and that I'd be interested in replacing them. They said they'd never seen the problem before, and that it would be an extra $2000 of work (not covered under warranty of course). They really tried to talk me out of it. It was pretty surprising given everything I've read on AZ, but I didn't have much money at the time, and I thought, well, you don't hear about all the cars with no problems. So I skipped it.

I called the dealer that my S4 was serviced in its entire life (I don't have the rattle) to see if the timing service was done and the service manager told me the same thing "That they'd never seen the problem before" also went to my local dealer same response, guessing its not that common of a problem also could be not to many people bring it to the dealer for the service. just my .02 cents

[SliverJay]

I called the dealer that my S4 was serviced in its entire life (I don't have the rattle) to see if the timing service was done and the service manager told me the same thing "That they'd never seen the problem before" also went to my local dealer same response, guessing its not that common of a problem also could be not to many people bring it to the dealer for the service. just my .02 cents

I was told the samething when I bought mine. Or AoA is covering it up?

[S4Bennett]

Does anybody have easy to access information on what is different on the updated guides and when the change took effect? I'm trying toget a feel for whether the inventory has turned to cycle out the older revision and if there's an easy way (visually) to tell the difference between the old and new revs.

[Jake@JHM]

You would have to have both side by side to really notice the difference, but the way the bracing is designed in the center of the guide is visually different.

[S4Bennett]

Anybody know if the new guides are cross linked?

[boomer3]

I am tearing the back end of my block apart, I have all of the parts I need to replace minus seals. I am having a little trouble cross-referencing the audi part #'s supplied by the guys here with the exact seals that I need for this job, EG:
079109293C — Hydraulic Controller Seal [2]- $17.60
079131120A — Coolant/SAP Gasket- $12.70
079131120 - Coolant/SAP Gasket- $12.70
079109139A — Center Lower Gasket- $9.90
079131120B — Kombi Valve Gasket [Pipe 2 timing cover]- $7.87
078131120K — Kombi Valve Gasket [Valve 2 valve]- $3.72
079105193 — Diamond Disc Washer [2]- $116.06
035906149A — Fuel Injector Seal Set [8]- $23.28
077129717Q — Intake Manifold Gaskets [2]- $36.08
077198025B — Valve Cover Gasket Kit [Bank 1: 1-4]- $46.13
077198025C — Valve Cover Gasket Kit [Bank 2: 5-8]- $46.13
079115111A — Oil Filter Housing Seal [Double O-Ring]- $5.46
N90959701 — Oil Filter Housing Seal [single O-Ring]- $1.24
N90989503 — Rear Water Manifold O-Rings [2]- $3.84

It looks like all of them are needed after looking at jimellisaudiparts, but wondering if some gaskets are potentially reusable, such as metal gaskets from kombi etc. Please note, I recognize these are totally newbie questions, the idea that "All seals should be replaced" is lodged in my psyche, but if there are certain seals that don't always have to be replaced please educate me!

[glebtcheb]

colors of the guides are different - updated guides are white/beige as opposed to brown
I believe the "ingredients" of the "plastic" are different or the mix is.
and the updated guide rails are now brown as opposed to black

[gcoy]

Yes, I would replace them. I mean why not? It is so much work to get to where you are now. I can post my parts list from when I did my service... (if that would help)

[sparkhed]

Went ahead with the intermediate plus after getting the stern look from my mechanic and not wanting to argue with him. I have used him for long enough and call him a friend so I trust his advise. Now have to wait for the rs6 in front of us to get its new tranny. Hope to have it back next week. Any break in period that I should know about? I won't be shifting at redline or anything (don't usually anyways) but I am hoping for another 92000 before this motor has to come out again. Thanks!

[glebtcheb]

I had the clutch done at the same time - He has to remove the tranny anyways to do the timing service. Just an extra $350 - $450 totally worth it - especially for the labour savings (you have to get all the way there) if it fails you in 40,000 miles...

[boomer3]

Yes, I would replace them. I mean why not? It is so much work to get to where you are now. I can post my parts list from when I did my service... (if that would help)

Yes I agree with your logic, I am going to replace all, it would be pretty foolish to do all this work and mess up with seals. I would still like to have some fundamental knowledge about it in general, incase there are locations/instances that seals don't need to be replaced.

If you would post the seals that you replaced I would really appreciate it. Also curious if 079105193 — Diamond Disc Washer [2], needs to ber replaced?

[gcoy]

I did not replace the Diamond Disc Washers... nor did the other member in here that helped me with advice when I did my service.

[PushingTin]

I just bought my b6 s4 MT at 124000 miles. I hear a 1-2 second rattle on cold start. From what I have read here that us normal? I'm thinking about buying an extended warranty because I'm scared of the timing system failing but would you? If I already have 125k on the car with no failure what are my odds I bought an s4 that will not encounter the failure? Thanks for any advice

Sent from my SGH-M919 using Tapatalk

[SquiddyB6S4]

I just bought my b6 s4 MT at 124000 miles. I hear a 1-2 second rattle on cold start. From what I have read here that us normal? I'm thinking about buying an extended warranty because I'm scared of the timing system failing but would you? If I already have 125k on the car with no failure what are my odds I bought an s4 that will not encounter the failure? Thanks for any advice

Sent from my SGH-M919 using Tapatalk

Don't bother with the warranty. They won't cover just the noise, and if the engine goes, they'll just back out and stick you with the bill anyway.

[boomer3]

I did not replace the Diamond Disc Washers... nor did the other member in here that helped me with advice when I did my service.


One last thing before i order all my gaskets; i see on ECS that there are a bunch of other gaskets listed under the 079109139 series. Like 079109139K, L, and J. All look like they could be valid to replace, as well as the timing case gaskets 079109092B, and 079109091B.

Why are these not listed in anybody's parts lists? Can they just be reused/left in there? Would be great to see if others have put these gaskets in or gotten away without replacing.

[gcoy]

One last thing before i order all my gaskets; i see on ECS that there are a bunch of other gaskets listed under the 079109139 series. Like 079109139K, L, and J. All look like they could be valid to replace, as well as the timing case gaskets 079109092B, and 079109091B.

Why are these not listed in anybody's parts lists? Can they just be reused/left in there? Would be great to see if others have put these gaskets in or gotten away without replacing.

That's weird, I just looked at my parts list and the only part number close to these that I replaced was 079109139A $6.14

[ProtoFly]

Question for the guys who have done the timing job:

Which cylinder is at TDC when the crank lock pin is in place?

Here's the reason: I'm working on my 2005 A6 4.2, which is pretty much the same engine. It bent the exhaust valves on the passenger side, when the cam chain tensioner decided it wanted to let loose with its plastic guide, throwing it into the exhaust cam sprocket, making it skip a tooth. (Seems to be one of the more common failure modes).

Heads resurfaced, valve job, new valve seals, new timing components, bolts, etc. Last night, I pulled the plug on the pan to put the 3242 crank holder in place, with #1 TDC. Except it didn't lock it in place. Huh. Yep, seated all the way. OK. Thinking I have the number 1 confused (passenger side, front cylinder, right??), I rotate the engine to what I thought was number 5 (drivers side, front). No deal there either. So I rotate to what I think is #8 TDC (Drivers side, rearmost cylinder), and sure enough, pin goes in, locks crank properly. Nowhere else.

The Bentley manual really is no help, as I can't find details -anywhere- except the term 'TDC ignition timing', for which I can't find a definition.

Based on the camshaft positions, this -seems- correct, as the cam lobes indicate that #8 is at TDC, just beginning the power stroke, and #2 is at TDC, just beginning the intake stroke.

Question is, is this correct?

Thanks for any wisdom,

Darryl

[gcoy]

Question for the guys who have done the timing job:

Which cylinder is at TDC when the crank lock pin is in place?

Here's the reason: I'm working on my 2005 A6 4.2, which is pretty much the same engine. It bent the exhaust valves on the passenger side, when the cam chain tensioner decided it wanted to let loose with its plastic guide, throwing it into the exhaust cam sprocket, making it skip a tooth. (Seems to be one of the more common failure modes).

Heads resurfaced, valve job, new valve seals, new timing components, bolts, etc. Last night, I pulled the plug on the pan to put the 3242 crank holder in place, with #1 TDC. Except it didn't lock it in place. Huh. Yep, seated all the way. OK. Thinking I have the number 1 confused (passenger side, front cylinder, right??), I rotate the engine to what I thought was number 5 (drivers side, front). No deal there either. So I rotate to what I think is #8 TDC (Drivers side, rearmost cylinder), and sure enough, pin goes in, locks crank properly. Nowhere else.

The Bentley manual really is no help, as I can't find details -anywhere- except the term 'TDC ignition timing', for which I can't find a definition.

Based on the camshaft positions, this -seems- correct, as the cam lobes indicate that #8 is at TDC, just beginning the power stroke, and #2 is at TDC, just beginning the intake stroke.

Question is, is this correct?

Thanks for any wisdom,

Darryl

Cyl 8 will be up at the correct timing (weird I know) and there is a little arrow on the harmonic balancer that lines up with the timing mark cast at the 12 o'clock position on the front of the engine. If Cyl 8 is up, the crank pin is screwed all the way in and you now cannot move the crankshaft,

[ProtoFly]

Cyl 8 will be up at the correct timing (weird I know) and there is a little arrow on the harmonic balancer that lines up with the timing mark cast at the 12 o'clock position on the front of the engine. If Cyl 8 is up, the crank pin is screwed all the way in and you now cannot move the crankshaft,

Thanks very much gcoy, both for the quick response, and for the reassurance that I wasn't losing my mind.

Is this outlined anywhere in the Bentley? -Seems- like something they'd want to make a point of - but then again, if the harmonic balancer arrow lines up, I guess that's all there is to need to know. (runs out to garage to find the arrow...) Hmm...Don't see it. You wouldn't happen to have a picture of the harmonic balancer little arrow, would you? Seems my balancer is a bit on the rusty looking side of things...Might have to procure a new one.

:-)

[gcoy]

http://i1254.photobucket.com/albums/hh602/gcoy69/9e299e38-199f-4259-b9ee-cf994ee61d14.jpg (http://s1254.photobucket.com/user/gcoy69/media/9e299e38-199f-4259-b9ee-cf994ee61d14.jpg.html)

I used The Elsawin Program, not Bentley. lol

[gcoy]

http://i1254.photobucket.com/albums/hh602/gcoy69/IMAG0797.jpg (http://s1254.photobucket.com/user/gcoy69/media/IMAG0797.jpg.html)

Here is a pic with the cam locks in-place. note the location of the white paint mark on the harmonic balancer ...

[ProtoFly]

http://i1254.photobucket.com/albums/hh602/gcoy69/IMAG0797.jpg (http://s1254.photobucket.com/user/gcoy69/media/IMAG0797.jpg.html)

Here is a pic with the cam locks in-place. note the location of the white paint mark on the harmonic balancer ...


Thanks. Very clean engine! I'll have to pressure wash mine once it is in the car and sealed up. My heads are clean, but the block is still very dirty from the years of oil leaking out the valve cover gaskets.

I'll have to check out the Elsawin program. The Bentley/eBahn goes over things decently, but pictures are lacking.

[ProtoFly]

http://i1254.photobucket.com/albums/hh602/gcoy69/IMAG0797.jpg (http://s1254.photobucket.com/user/gcoy69/media/IMAG0797.jpg.html)

Here is a pic with the cam locks in-place. note the location of the white paint mark on the harmonic balancer ...

White paint mark is pointing towards the idler pulley, correct? My balancer looks to be in the same position, and I did find a faint white paint mark there as well.

I -didn't- see a mark on the block there, though, but there is something at 12 o'clock in your picture.

While I at least feel like I'm in good territory, I think it is worth discussing this a bit, just so that the next person might benefit from the conversation.

[ProtoFly]

Next stupid question: What are the dimensions of tool 'trim removal wedge 3409', which is referenced when setting the timing?

Based on what I'm looking at, it appears that it's just being used to pre-load the tensioners to some degree, to remove any slack from the chains.

[ProtoFly]

Update on my 4.2 project: Car is back together, and runs great. I've learned much about these 4.2's.

I spent quite a bit on little things - all the little o-rings and seals that aren't listed, plus numerous torque-to-yield bolts, water pump, etc, all added up to several hundred dollars. I'm guessing that most people don't replace many of those bolts, but since I plan on keeping the car for another 165k miles, I followed the Bentley pretty closely on that stuff.

Recognizing that my car is an A6, it's clear to me that my 4.2 has almost zero differences from the S4. Many (if not most/all) of the part numbers for the guides and such are the same, or have been superseded to the same parts.

I have to give major props to the S4 forum areas, since there aren't apparently that many A6 owners that work on their own cars, most of the really solid information comes from the S4 people. So, thanks!


-Darryl

[Cyrool]

Hi guys, very interesting tread.

In my 2003 S4 i have this faults codes:
- 17942 - Bank2 adjusting cam (N208) - electrical fault in +
P1534 - 001 - Light on
- 16684 - Wiring trouble detected
P0300 - 008 -
- 16687 - Cylinder 3 Wiring trouble detected
P0303 - 008 -
- 16685 - Cylinder 1 Wiring trouble detected
P0301 - 008 -

Can anyone help me to know what is the real trouble:
- Cam adjuster are used ?
- Electrical adjusting system in bank 2 failed or not powered?
- Another ?

Thanks in advance for your reply and your help.[:D]

Cyril

[jon.m.rob]

Thanks for this info, it is very helpful. I just bought a 2005 S4 with 127K miles. No rattle, and runs really smooth. You suggest using high quality oil, and I have read other places that using a heavier weight oil will also help. I can see that a heavier oil would have advantages because it would be less likely to bleed oil pressure as you mentioned in one of the early posts. But I can see that a lower weight oil would have advantages of getting through the timing components faster once the engine is started. For preventative care would you recommend a heavier weight oil, a lighter weight oil, or just to stick with the spec oil?

[LakeTahoeQuattr]

I am going to bump this thread. And am surprised there has not been more talk about this subject.

Here is a great reference for the adjustment of the timing: Link (http://workshop-manuals.com/audi/a4_cabriolet_mk2/power_unit/8-cylinder_engine_%284.2_ltr._5-valve_with_timing_chains%29_mechanics/enginecrankshaft_group_pistons/servicing_work_on_timing_chain_end/removing_and_installing_camshaft_timing_chains/)

I am have rebuilt the adjusters with the JHM kit, and am currently having difficulty getting the cams "timed" perfectly with the supplied vag tools.

I am +- 1 degree

[TarlCabot]

I am going to bump this thread. And am surprised there has not been more talk about this subject.

Here is a great reference for the adjustment of the timing: Link (http://workshop-manuals.com/audi/a4_cabriolet_mk2/power_unit/8-cylinder_engine_%284.2_ltr._5-valve_with_timing_chains%29_mechanics/enginecrankshaft_group_pistons/servicing_work_on_timing_chain_end/removing_and_installing_camshaft_timing_chains/)

I am have rebuilt the adjusters with the JHM kit, and am currently having difficulty getting the cams "timed" perfectly with the supplied vag tools.

I am +- 1 degree

do you have all the proper tools and instructions on how to put the motor back in time ?
i know its prob a stupid question, but it's pretty straight forward if you do it right and the ecu and electric adjuster take over from there...

[TarlCabot]

that link you provided didnt show the pics of the tools... but seems about right as far as instructions go, long as you have all 7 of the tools i dont see how you could go wrong unless your electrical adjusters are malfunctioning, but you would be getting codes for that :/

[guardsredcoupe]

By the way, my engine died due to an injector that was stuck open and washed down a cylinder wall. So, I have all my timing chain components available for sale. Less than 10k miles on them. Send me a PM if interested.

[LakeTahoeQuattr]

The tools are shown in the link. I am going to re-do the timing today this time using the crank lock pin and not relying on the cam lock bars for timing accuracy. I also did not sue the plastic wedges to push out the chain tensioners so when I tightened up everything the tensioners were not at their normal state this I think the cause of the cams settling a little bit offset. Hopefully this solves the issue. After the amount of work put into this v8 I want to make sure it is all good before I seal everything up...

[VR6OhMy]

Hey guys I cannot find any information on timing marks for the intermediate shafts, not even in the Bentley. I've looked closely at mine and do not see any of the tell tale VW/Audi intermediate shaft marks such as an angled cut tooth for a pointer.

Any help would be greatly appreciated!

[Brandywine050]

The tools are shown in the link. I am going to re-do the timing today this time using the crank lock pin and not relying on the cam lock bars for timing accuracy. I also did not sue the plastic wedges to push out the chain tensioners so when I tightened up everything the tensioners were not at their normal state this I think the cause of the cams settling a little bit offset. Hopefully this solves the issue. After the amount of work put into this v8 I want to make sure it is all good before I seal everything up...

It definitely shouldn't be that difficult. just be sure to lock the cams, have all of the cam bolts loose so the gears are able to spin free on the cams, pull the pins on the tensioners to let the chain tighten up and remove any slack in the chains so the gears can be clocked, oriented and sit neutral on the cams, torque the exhaust cam bolts to 40NM (29.5 Ft/lbs) install the wedges, install the setting gauge over the hall/rotor ring torque them to 40NM as well, remove the crank pin, cam locks, and setting gauge and bar the engine over until you are able to get the cam locks and crank pin back in, and you should be able to install the setting gauge back over the intake cam rotor ring and exhaust cam bolt, then final torque on the cam bolts of 100Nm (73.76Ft/lbs) then 90 degrees.

Some one may need to chime in to verify. its been a while since i timed mine.

[Brandywine050]

Hey guys I cannot find any information on timing marks for the intermediate shafts, not even in the Bentley. I've looked closely at mine and do not see any of the tell tale VW/Audi intermediate shaft marks such as an angled cut tooth for a pointer.

Any help would be greatly appreciated!


intermediate shafts, to which do you refer? if its the accessory drive gears then they do not have any indexing on them indicating orientation.

[VR6OhMy]

intermediate shafts, to which do you refer? if its the accessory drive gears then they do not have any indexing on them indicating orientation.

These ones ;)

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v186/VR6_Oh_My/audi42timingchainboobs.jpg

[Brandywine050]

These ones ;)

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v186/VR6_Oh_My/audi42timingchainboobs.jpg

Gotcha, those can be orientated in any position my friend, there is nothing critical about their position.

[VR6OhMy]

Gotcha, those can be orientated in any position my friend, there is nothing critical about their position.

Thank you sir! ;)

[TarlCabot]

The tools are shown in the link. I am going to re-do the timing today this time using the crank lock pin and not relying on the cam lock bars for timing accuracy. I also did not sue the plastic wedges to push out the chain tensioners so when I tightened up everything the tensioners were not at their normal state this I think the cause of the cams settling a little bit offset. Hopefully this solves the issue. After the amount of work put into this v8 I want to make sure it is all good before I seal everything up...

those plastic wedges are really important... chain has to be tight, could have caused your problem... g/l and keep us updated

[alm70]

Hello..I come from the C6 A6 forums and stumbled across this thread since my car is a 07 A6 4.2. My car currently needs a cam chain tensioner. I'm by no means a mechanic so forgive me if I use the wrong terminology. It needs the tensioner on the passenger side.
My indy shop is saying most people only do the side that has the issue because of the price of parts. If money wasn't an issue, I can see doing both sides, but if I only do the effected side is it a matter of when and not if the other side goes?
The car does have 100K on it.

This isn't my first Audi and I have had VW and Audi's for 20 years so I'm aware of the maintenance cost, but this is by far the biggest repair I have had to do. Looking at the pictures above puts my stomach in knots.

[FormulaElement]

Your 4.2 is FSI and is different than these engines. I would replace both especially if you have to pull the engine because paying to have the engine pulled twice is much more than fronting the cost for both. To be honest if one went already, the other one should be on its way out...

[SquiddyB6S4]

Your 4.2 is FSI and is different than these engines. I would replace both especially if you have to pull the engine because paying to have the engine pulled twice is much more than fronting the cost for both. To be honest if one went already, the other one should be on its way out...

Correct; different engine, much less problematic.

For those with the chain driven 4.2 - FYI, it's plenty common to have one go bad and the other look great. The problem was not a bad design so much as the quality control was a bit off for several parts on these cars. It was low production, so the money spent designing and producing special parts was already high, and, as usual with low production cars, the parts don't end up as uniform and reliable. But, as mentioned, the labor costs much more than the parts, so I would do both, as well as replacing the several other timing bits in there that tend to go bad on these cars. You can do a pretty good timing job on these cars for about $1,500 in parts, as long as nothing has completely failed yet.

[VR6OhMy]

Well...looks like I may have had some valve contact unfortunately. I just got an endoscope and this is what I came up with.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v186/VR6_Oh_My/Snap_003.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v186/VR6_Oh_My/Snap_001.jpg


The middle valve on every cylinder looks like it kissed each piston. The second picture here looks worse than the other 7, but the first picture is representative of every other cylinder. The upper guide was in 6 pieces plus many crumbs so I'm not surprised that it jumped time, but I find it goofy that only the center intake valve is what made contact on every cylinder? Would half of the cylinders have exhaust valves open while the intakes were open on the opposite bank? Another goofy thing is each valve seems completely seated up against the head and no light is visible through the spark plug hole when shining a very bright light down through the topside port.

What would you do in my situation? I'm trying to do things as cheap as possible, but it has to be done proper so if it costs a few more bucks I'd shell them out.

Option #1 Pull heads and replace 1 valve per cylinder, sand top of pistons, replace all valve seals and guides.

Option #2 Replace cylinder heads with used units from a junk yard.

Option #3 Replace entire engine with used unit and refreshed timing guides.

[LakeTahoeQuattr]

Just finished the cam adjuster job last night. Put engine back in car, started and no misfires!!!

[rsrider]

Hey Guys,

Well I MAY have this dreaded timing issue. I have a 2004 B6 which has relatively high miles (175000kms or 108,000 miles). The strange thing for me is that this has effectively come with no warning at all. My car has not used a sceric of oil since its last service 8000kms ago and had barely a 1 second rattle on dead cold start up and nothing at any other time. The oil is also clean as a whistle.

I went to leave work the other night and the car started fine - I warmed it up for a couple of minutes as I always do and while driving down the road at 15kph it suddenly started misfiring and running on what sounded like 5 cylinders. I immediately pulled over to the side of the road and plugged the VAG scanner in that I have. At no point in time did the CEL come on.

It has the following codes:

16684 - Random Multiple cylinder misfire
16685 - Cylinder 1 Misfire
16686 - Cylinder 2 Misfire
16687 - Cylinder 2 Misfire

At no point did I hear any rattling, knocking or any other strange noise before this happened. It is going into the local European private workshop for assessment tomorrow, but I am absolutely dreading the worst.
I had to drive the car about 500m back to work as I had wasn't in the greatest area and wasn't willing to leave it there. I am concerned that I may have caused further damage. Most of the people I have spoken to and the forums I have read with this timing issue have had some sort of warning signs that this might happen (e.g oil useage, rattling, knocking, misfires) - I have had nothing.

Is there anything else that could cause these symptoms I am having?

Thanks

Rory

[SquiddyB6S4]

If you haven't heard a mechanical noise in that time that it failed or after, then I wouldn't fret too much; a cam timing issue should affect cylinders 1-4, not just 1 & 2. Maybe you just have a bad coil pack or something. Let them diagnose and report back. Factory knock sensors are not perfect anyway, and they do fail from time to time.

[badger.]

Couple quick questions on the engine pull:

1. I have a tip (auto) transmission. Do I need to pull the motor AND transmission to do the timing service (JHM Intermediate Kit)?

--- If YES: If I pull motor AND trans, do I need to separate them in order to install the timing components?

2. Are there any guides for the motor pull with a tiptronic? All the ones I've seen (there are a few around) are with manuals. I am concerned I will run into some unforeseen issues. Does anyone have experience on a tip car?

3. Is there a list anywhere of the hardware needed to complete the reassembly? I've heard certain subframe bolts and whatnot might be one-time use but none of the DIYs seem to detail that. (I purchased the Bentley manual this morning so perhaps the answer is in there, however a list from a fellow DIYer would probably be a much faster reference).

________________________________

I think I will be around here more and more asking questions I approach this job. I am planning for early April, full timing service and reinstalled in <10 days, by myself (unless you are in Louisville/Cinci area and want to help for some free beer!!). Since this is my DD, I am trying to be as prepared as possible before starting work.

[rsrider]

Hi Jason thanks for the reply - the only noise I heard was the odd quick rattle on very cold start up. But while driving I hear nothing. Typo in my original post. Codes are:

16684 - Random Multiple cylinder misfire
16685 - Cylinder 1 Misfire
16686 - Cylinder 2 Misfire
16687 - Cylinder 3 Misfire

Nothing about cylinder 4 though, but all on the same bank.

[BCsniper]

Couple quick questions on the engine pull:

1. I have a tip (auto) transmission. Do I need to pull the motor AND transmission to do the timing service (JHM Intermediate Kit)?

--- If YES: If I pull motor AND trans, do I need to separate them in order to install the timing components?

2. Are there any guides for the motor pull with a tiptronic? All the ones I've seen (there are a few around) are with manuals. I am concerned I will run into some unforeseen issues. Does anyone have experience on a tip car?

3. Is there a list anywhere of the hardware needed to complete the reassembly? I've heard certain subframe bolts and whatnot might be one-time use but none of the DIYs seem to detail that. (I purchased the Bentley manual this morning so perhaps the answer is in there, however a list from a fellow DIYer would probably be a much faster reference).

________________________________

I think I will be around here more and more asking questions I approach this job. I am planning for early April, full timing service and reinstalled in <10 days, by myself (unless you are in Louisville/Cinci area and want to help for some free beer!!). Since this is my DD, I am trying to be as prepared as possible before starting work.


1. You don't have to also some may thing it's easier to leave the trans in place because hey don't want to have to pull/re-install that trans from the bottom, plus it's not that hard just to unbolt the driveshaft and trans mounts instead.

2. Not that I know of, but the engine pull should be the same minus the trans mounts. I pulled the motor/trans from a Tip car in a guys driveway and getting the trans to let loose was decently more of a pain in the ass than a manual car, but nothing too drastic.

3. Not sure of that. Subframe bolts are 1-time use but many have re-used them. Also if you leave one side of the subframe bolted up you can avoid having to get an alignment after.


I'm starting to stock pile my parts, so I'll be pulling my motor and doing an overhaul pretty soon also.

[SquiddyB6S4]

Couple quick questions on the engine pull:

1. I have a tip (auto) transmission. Do I need to pull the motor AND transmission to do the timing service (JHM Intermediate Kit)?

--- If YES: If I pull motor AND trans, do I need to separate them in order to install the timing components?

2. Are there any guides for the motor pull with a tiptronic? All the ones I've seen (there are a few around) are with manuals. I am concerned I will run into some unforeseen issues. Does anyone have experience on a tip car?

3. Is there a list anywhere of the hardware needed to complete the reassembly? I've heard certain subframe bolts and whatnot might be one-time use but none of the DIYs seem to detail that. (I purchased the Bentley manual this morning so perhaps the answer is in there, however a list from a fellow DIYer would probably be a much faster reference).

________________________________

I think I will be around here more and more asking questions I approach this job. I am planning for early April, full timing service and reinstalled in <10 days, by myself (unless you are in Louisville/Cinci area and want to help for some free beer!!). Since this is my DD, I am trying to be as prepared as possible before starting work.

1) You don't have to, but it may still be easier. At the very least, you will have to tilt the motor and transmission a bit to get to the bolts, and you'll have to remove the downpipes anyways, so I don't see you saving a whole lot of effort by not pulling the transmission.

2) I haven't seen one either. Good luck. I also haven't bothered searching for one, either . . .

3) I highly recommend that you thoroughly read through the entire procedure at least once in the Bentley manual, if not twice, before putting any tools in your hands. By all means, look at the car for reference, but if you are trying to save time by not reading the manual on something this big and complicated, you are probably shooting yourself in the foot big time. If you had done many engine pulls before on other cars, maybe you don't need to read it thoroughly, but it sounds like you are not a pro at removing and installing engines.


Hi Jason thanks for the reply - the only noise I heard was the odd quick rattle on very cold start up. But while driving I hear nothing. Typo in my original post. Codes are:

16684 - Random Multiple cylinder misfire
16685 - Cylinder 1 Misfire
16686 - Cylinder 2 Misfire
16687 - Cylinder 3 Misfire

Nothing about cylinder 4 though, but all on the same bank.

You're most welcome. I meant are there any sounds it made after you had this issue? You drove it back to work; did it make any sounds then?

[rsrider]

Well - it doesn't sound healthy lol, but I cant hear any loud rattles or knocking - just sounds like its running on less cylinders than normal. Little difficult as it has a Miltek on it which is rather loud. It's just been dropped off to the workshop i'll post back once I have more info.

Thanks

[rsrider]

Ok so had a quick text back from the mechanic. They are still working on it but he says there 'appears' to be an issue with the inlet manifold and its running very rich.......any ideas?

[SquiddyB6S4]

An issue with the inlet manifold? I can't imagine what they mean. My manifold flap was stuck a while back, so I dyno'd it both stuck open and stuck closed, and the car ran perfectly in both situations - obviously missing some power in each mode, of course. I don't know how they would expect to blame a problem with three cylinders on an intake manifold that equally supports all eight cylinders.

If this mechanic does not have a Ross-Tech cable/software, then I would find a different mechanic. Very seriously there.

[rsrider]

Spoke to him on the phone today. Sounds like he hasn't had much time to work on it. He said there was a lot of noise from the inlet manifold and when he disconnected it the car ran a little better but still had a miss. He needs to look into it a bit further to determine where to go to next. He used a scan tool for the timing and said everything appeared to be ok. Will update when I hear next.

[djmilleroh]

Does anyone have an audio of the rattling? I just bought a b7 s4 and I hear a small rattle during a cold start but it goes away after 10/15 seconds. Not sure if this is my paranoia?

[Aundrealti]

Does anyone have an audio of the rattling? I just bought a b7 s4 and I hear a small rattle during a cold start but it goes away after 10/15 seconds. Not sure if this is my paranoia?


I bought my b6 s4 4 months ago.. I didn't know much about it then but I drove it back from P.A. with a misfire..(don't know what I was thinking) 4 hours to be exact and it had little power but made it.. rattle on startup for a couple seconds too..
tensioners were bad... did a full timing job.. There's also another post in here which talks about oil jets.. valley gaskets and what not and I replaced those too
long story short the car runs excellent now.. oh and it also had a clogged pre-cat so I did piggy's while I was at it..
Mine had similar rattling and I believe the replacement of the oil jets solved that problem..
I also notice that if I run low on oil.. I will get an intermediate rattle on cold or warm startups.. which leads me to believe that if there isn't much oil pressure left where those guides are then you tend to get that rattling sound.. check the other thread and hopefully replacing the jets will solve your problem.

[Aundrealti]

Does anyone have an audio of the rattling? I just bought a b7 s4 and I hear a small rattle during a cold start but it goes away after 10/15 seconds. Not sure if this is my paranoia?

btw.. 10/15 seconds is might long.. when mine did it it was 2 seconds tops

[rsrider]

Soooo......it unfortunately was worst case scenario. A guide has completely shit itself and put little bits of plastic around the place. Luckily no engine damage.

Still waiting to confirm exactly what else (if anything) failed and what I will need to replace.

While the engine is out what other things should I be doing?

[Aundrealti]

Soooo......it unfortunately was worst case scenario. A guide has completely shit itself and put little bits of plastic around the place. Luckily no engine damage.

Still waiting to confirm exactly what else (if anything) failed and what I will need to replace.

While the engine is out what other things should I be doing?


I replaced tensioners and guides.. 10 pieces total I believe. FCP Euro.. $700
valley gasket
intake manifold gasket
oil jets
spray jets with the o ring seals
valve cover gaskets
half moons that go with the valve cover gaskets
main seal
that belt in front he motor where the main seal is
optional: upgraded jhm motor mounts and snub mount
optional: the cluch was half worn so I changed that too

also had the motor flushed and replaced the oil with mobil 0-40.. have no idea what was in there before..
I replaced any small seal that looked like it was sweating or leaking...
and also did the piggy mod while the motor was out..

maybe forgetting more but that's what I remember from off the top of my head...

[rsrider]

Thanks for that. Here is the list of parts I had intended to purchase - some of it may be overkill so any advice appreciated.

ECS Standard Timing Chain Kit (Includes all chains, tensioners, guides, bolts etc) - Does not include the two expensive tensioners or the mechanical adjusters
Spark Plugs
Camshaft Position Sensors x 2
EGR Valve Gasket
Front Crank Seal
Rear Crank Seal (Rear Main)
Cam Chain Tensioner Gasket - Cylinders 1-4
Cam Chain Tensioner Gasket - Cylinders 5-8
Camshaft Seal x 2
Cam Chain Tensioner Gasket Right
Cam Chain Tensioner Gasket Left
EGR Valve Adapter Gasket
Both Engine Mounts & Snub Mount
Valve Cover Gasket Set
Accessory Belt & Tensioner
Oil Check Valve Service Kit (includes valley pan gasket, intake manifold gaskets, oil check valves, oil spray valve, oil filter housing gaskets)
Front Subframe Bushes (doing these as he is dropping subframe)

I was thinking of doing fuel injector seals also - or can I do these anytime?

[badger.]

Similar questions here. Going with the JHM intermediate kit.

1. Will I lose any trans fluid during and engine+trans pull and timing work? (other than when dc'ing cooler lines to the radiator)

2. With the intermediate kit (does not come with the control adjuster assembly) do I still need the gaskets for these?
--- "cam chain tensioner gasket cyl 1-4 & cyl 4-8"

3. Do the timing covers require any sealant for reinstall?



...anyone want to rent me the timing tools?

[TarlCabot]

3. Do the timing covers require any sealant for reinstall?

...anyone want to rent me the timing tools?

yes... i can let you know when mine are returned and ready to ship if you dont find some sooner [:(]

[yoshibishi]

yes... i can let you know when mine are returned and ready to ship if you dont find some sooner [:(]

Wait.. did you have your car on autotrader recently?

[TarlCabot]

no... NEVER, if you look in the 25q thread, the guys are talking about that... it's got a bad motor iirc and their asking almost 17k [facepalm]

[yoshibishi]

no... NEVER, if you look in the 25q thread, the guys are talking about that... it's got a bad motor iirc and their asking almost 17k [facepalm]

It was around 20k when I bought my S4. Thank god I didn't pull the trigger on that then!

[guardsredcoupe]

By the way, my engine died due to an injector that was stuck open and washed down a cylinder wall. So, I have all my timing chain components available for sale. Less than 10k miles on them. Send me a PM if interested.

[VR6OhMy]

Anyone know what the torque specs are for the T30 bolts and studs that secure the tensioners and studs that hold the guides?

I just found some of the specs. Just need the tensioners now.


http://ww2.justanswer.com/uploads/nabilc/2011-11-21_143003_sss.jpg

[gcoy]

Here is a Very informative thread running now.

http://www.audizine.com/forum/showthread.php/644173-Finally-Doing-Timing-with-164k-on-the-Clock!

It looks like we have a new O-ring seal to add to the parts list. #N 906 384 02

(see post #34 thru #44)

[Markie93]

I have a 2005 A6 with the 4.2L V8. I know for sure it has chains but was wondering if it was the same as this one.

[TarlCabot]

I have a 2005 A6 with the 4.2L V8. I know for sure it has chains but was wondering if it was the same as this one.

chains mean the same ;) only different engine is RS4

[Vertol]

By the way, my engine died due to an injector that was stuck open and washed down a cylinder wall. So, I have all my timing chain components available for sale. Less than 10k miles on them. Send me a PM if interested.

I'm curious about this...could you elaborate on this? What damage did this cause? I have never heard of this.

[guardsredcoupe]

I'm curious about this...could you elaborate on this? What damage did this cause? I have never heard of this.

Something blew out inside the injector so that the fuel was flowing right through it. This allowed the fuel to dump continuously through the injector into the cylinder and wash past the rings. This diluted the lubricating effect of the oil on the cylinder walls and without enough lubrication the rings scored the cylinder walls beyond repair. When it happened, the engine stumbled and the check engine light came on, but I figured that it was just the famous coil pack failure and drove home. Wrong.

[sdmad33]

https://youtu.be/BhK0aQMGisg

Hello All,
New member, first post. I am not particularly knowledgeable about auto mechanics but am not a total dumbass either. I do not work on my own car(s) but know the general workings/engineering. Anyway, I am having some issues with my 2005 B6 S4 MT6 (120,000 miles). Above is a short video (I hope...not sure I did it right) so y'all can hear the ticking. It started about a week ago as a very faint sound that I wasn't even sure I was hearing. Within a few days it got worse and the video was taken last night (7 or 8 days after first noticing something was amiss). No roughness or bucking while driving. No misfiring. Aside from the irksome and incessant ticking, no other symptoms at all. From the threads I have read, the prognosis seems very likely to be grim. My ticking sounds very similar to a few other ticking videos I found, where the diagnosis was a timing chain tensioner issue (the other 'most-likely' scenario that I saw is a faulty intake manifold flapper?). Can anyone confirm or deny this? If that is indeed the issue and the engine needs to come out, I ask y'all if you think the cost is justifiable (about 8K left on my loan), taking into consideration that my sick baby is also burning oil (approx. 1-quart every 200-300 miles and sometimes needs a quart after as little as 100 (harder driven) miles)? I suppose the question is... Does the ticking issue have anything to do with the oil consumption or vice versa? Meaning, if I drop $5K (or whatever) on the tensioner and/or cam adjusters repair(s), will the underlying oil issue simply cause the same problem again? Even if the answer is no (that the one issue does not have anything to do with the other), I have a feeling most will tell me that it is idiotic to sink that much cash into an already 'over the hill', oil burning engine ...which deep down I know and agree with but damn it, I love this badass car! Please advise :( What would you do?!

Thank you so very kindly in advance,
Shawn

P.s. Pretty sure it is not relevant but earlier this month my CEL popped on and car went into limp-mode. I drove it (very gently) approx. 6 miles, directly to my shop where they replaced the shot coil, all plugs and performed a fuel injection servicing. She drove & sounded like a dream (albeit a typically oil guzzling one) for the couple of weeks leading up to my current situation.

P.s.s. One last quick question... I've been using 0W-40, as per the manual. I've read that 5W-40 is also acceptable and some say better. Given the info I've provided on my car, what is the best oil to use?! Is there an actual, definitive answer to that question or is it all just opinion? I just want to baby her wherever I can...

THANKS AGAIN!!

[badger.]

Video is set to private

[S4Polak]

good post

[TEB]

1qr5tewqwr5wq

[Adubinetsky]

I heard the b7 has less problems with the timing chain/tensioners issue. Anyone know how true this is?

[Sickws6]

So where is a good manual or written process to follow for doing timing job?

[badger.]

The bentley manual goes through it in a muddy way (~$100 online).

There is a pretty thorough engine pull DIY linked all over the place here that covers the engine pull for a 6MT. But it can be mostly used for a TIP car (worked for me in conjunction with the bentley and some common car sense)

No one has done a full DIY type writeup for actually doing the timing setup. Depending what you replace and how you diassemble things will change what steps are needed. I have a very rough draft of my engine pull and timing work (for a TIP) but I have not had any time recently to work on it.

But if you do get into it there are lots of people here and other forums that can help you through specific steps.

[Sickws6]

The bentley manual goes through it in a muddy way (~$100 online).

There is a pretty thorough engine pull DIY linked all over the place here that covers the engine pull for a 6MT. But it can be mostly used for a TIP car (worked for me in conjunction with the bentley and some common car sense)

No one has done a full DIY type writeup for actually doing the timing setup. Depending what you replace and how you diassemble things will change what steps are needed. I have a very rough draft of my engine pull and timing work (for a TIP) but I have not had any time recently to work on it.

But if you do get into it there are lots of people here and other forums that can help you through specific steps.

Cool, sent you a PM

[bigredx24x]

This might be relevant for this thread, found this on YouTube:

Cold start sound before timing chain service: http://youtu.be/gNYWIenzqbg

Sound after service: http://youtu.be/kRHr1ZimhA4


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Sickws6]

Here is a vid of the damage via noise.

http://i114.photobucket.com/albums/n241/sickws6/th_VIDEO00621_zpsg9zkfdbv.mp4 (http://i114.photobucket.com/albums/n241/sickws6/VIDEO00621_zpsg9zkfdbv.mp4)

[bigredx24x]

Here is a vid of the damage via noise.

http://i114.photobucket.com/albums/n241/sickws6/th_VIDEO00621_zpsg9zkfdbv.mp4 (http://i114.photobucket.com/albums/n241/sickws6/VIDEO00621_zpsg9zkfdbv.mp4)

Yikes! [o_o]

[Sickws6]

Hoping I can get away with rebuilding the heads and salvaging the block and rotating assem. We shall see once I rip into it


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[fallingreason]

Once this service is done at around 90-100k, will it likely need to be repeated at 200k? Or are the faults limited to the factory components?


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[Sickws6]

Updates on my thread yeah that is what causing that noise. Check out the pics

http://www.audizine.com/forum/showthread.php/663832-Just-baught-a-05-s4-Dreaded-timing-chain-issues?p=11040770#post11040770

[Kevinskir]

So this might be a dumb question, but, does this also apply to a B7 RS4? From what I found they also have a timing chain but are they plagued with the possible same issues? I mainly ask because I have been talking myself into getting one and making it work lol. Two I am looking at have 84k and 104k miles respectively, just trying to see what I might be looking at for immediate service is all. Thanks!

[RedS4avant]

Rs4 has metal guides I believe

[amc120475]

So my b6 s4 just had catastrophic failure due to failure of the timing components. Engine is toast. I called audi to at least share my ownership experience and they advised me to take it to the dealer and get a diagnosis, and they gave me a case number. The car is at a very reputable indy shop currently. Has anyone who has had timing issues, ever got audi to help out with out of warranty costs? Just wondering if they were just giving me lip service, or if it is something worth pursuing with them. If anyone can share their experiences it would be greatly appreciated. I know this thread is rather old...

[BCsniper]

Yer fucked...sorry man.

I think Audi helped a couple folks back in the day when people were under warranty or just had it expire. Even then they made you pay for a teardown. After that I think I remember them paying out all of twice....and that was back when these failures were a brand new thing. Now tell just laugh and offer you a new (rebuilt) motor for 15k

[amc120475]

Thanks. Just fucking bullshit that at 104k miles a car needs a complete new engine. Did all the research on timing chain and other issues with the b6 until my eyes bled, and still made the decision to buy. Didn't know I'd be one of the horror stories I read about all those hours, although I think I'm in the minority with owners who had complete catastrophic failure. Lucky me! Owned it since 80k and always had regular service. I do love the car and this won't be my last Audi, but for a high end manufacturer of cars, they should be ashamed of this.

[jordanskole]

Wow. Thank you so much for putting this thread together. I am currently considering a 2005.5 B7 S4 right now, and I was doing research when I found this. Does anybody know:

- How common is this problem? It seems like dealerships say it isn't common, but seems like it is?
- Can anything be done to prevent this? The car I am looking at was owned by Audi Corporate for a long time, would they do they have done the replacements as PM (under 60k miles)?
- I have access to all the mechanical records since factory for the car I am considering. Is there anything I should look out for to indicate this is in my future?
- It seemed like this issue plagued the b6 more than the b7, is that true?

Thanks again for putting together this thread and thanks in advance for the answers!

[alofoke1985]

Can anyone help me to put my s4 back in time please ☹☹

[alofoke1985]

Can anyone help me to put my s4 back in time please ☹☹

[0396]

Excellent tread, its unfortunate that Joey is no longer a member -:(. If he was in LA, I would take my S4 to him for service / timing change service.

[NAPPYKHAKI]

What was the total cost on your repair...if you don't mind me asking.

[0396]

What was the total cost on your repair...if you don't mind me asking.

Excellent question, as I plan on having my S4 done too.

[VinnysS4]

Ok im a little confused here. Not trying to beat a dead horse or bring up the timing chain topic more than it already has been brought up. Here are my 2 questions. #1---JHM sells their intermediate kit off their website for $1575(plus shipping im assuming) and they also sell what appears to be the exact same kit(and is labeled the exact same) on ebay for $2150+$50 shipping. What is the difference? Am i missing something?
#2---What would be the difference of ordering a kit from say ecs tuning (https://www.ecstuning.com/ES2593417/...Y9AaAgyH8P8HAQ) and adding the mechanical adjusters and subtracting the chains? other than just a few seals, they appear to be the same.
I'm not trying to start a huge debate as to who is a better company or who works on these engines more etc...JHM is obviously a huge contributor to the S4 world (much thanks for that too!) I'm just the average guy who wants to fix his own car and doesn't want to spend more than is needed to do it. As people have stated before, the chains don't really break. People have talked about them stretching, but i have never once seen anyone measure them too see if this is infact a measurable amount. It's hard for me to justify the $2000 expense as a maintenance item, but i don't want to wait until it breaks and be possibly stuck with 2x that amount in repairs. I have 94k on my motor with some rattle on start-up (considered normal) and every once in a while ill hear it on warm startup. anyone?

[drwest]

Ok im a little confused here. Not trying to beat a dead horse or bring up the timing chain topic more than it already has been brought up. Here are my 2 questions. #1---JHM sells their intermediate kit off their website for $1575(plus shipping im assuming) and they also sell what appears to be the exact same kit(and is labeled the exact same) on ebay for $2150+$50 shipping. What is the difference? Am i missing something?
#2---What would be the difference of ordering a kit from say ecs tuning (https://www.ecstuning.com/ES2593417/...Y9AaAgyH8P8HAQ) and adding the mechanical adjusters and subtracting the chains? other than just a few seals, they appear to be the same.
I'm not trying to start a huge debate as to who is a better company or who works on these engines more etc...JHM is obviously a huge contributor to the S4 world (much thanks for that too!) I'm just the average guy who wants to fix his own car and doesn't want to spend more than is needed to do it. As people have stated before, the chains don't really break. People have talked about them stretching, but i have never once seen anyone measure them too see if this is infact a measurable amount. It's hard for me to justify the $2000 expense as a maintenance item, but i don't want to wait until it breaks and be possibly stuck with 2x that amount in repairs. I have 94k on my motor with some rattle on start-up (considered normal) and every once in a while ill hear it on warm startup. anyone?

I am hoping for some good input here seeing that I am contemplating on what timing kit to buy. I have been leaning towards the ECS Tuning standard kit, but now that its pointed out that JHM has a beefier guide, perhaps this should be reconsidered.

[Jake@JHM]

This kit is hands down the most recommended kit available on the market:

https://jhmotorsports.com/shop/catalog/jhm-timing-chain-service-kit-jhm-oem-for-b6-b7-s4-intermediate-p-2312.html

we supply a metal guide to replace that pesky plastic OEM guide that is always breaking, and we provide the JHM Adjuster repair kit. The intermediate kit replaces everything that is most failure prone that requires an engine pull.

[VinnysS4]

ok so what is the difference between the kit on your web site and the one on ebay sold from you as well? its like a $600 difference

[Jake@JHM]

ok so what is the difference between the kit on your web site and the one on ebay sold from you as well? its like a $600 difference

There is an OEM kit and a JHM Kit.

[VinnysS4]

BTW, as i stated before: Thank you for continuing to work on our model of S4 and making parts for them. You seem to be one of the only, and by far the best aftermarket companies around. I'm not saying "buy xxxxx parts because they are 50 bucks cheaper" im just trying to figure out 1: why there is such a gap in price for what appears to be the same exact kit sold from different locations by the same manufacturer and 2: other then the upgraded guide that is known to fail so often, what is really the difference in ordering from JHM for as opposed to someone else who sells other manufacturers parts? Sorry for the questions and if i sound like i'm butting heads...i don't mean to sound that way. I'll probably just order the kit from you anyways, its just a lot more than something like a tank of gas and x-mas is right around the corner...

[VinnysS4]

fast response! so then the one on E-bay is the OEM kit? and the on on your web site is JHM?

[Jake@JHM]

BTW, as i stated before: Thank you for continuing to work on our model of S4 and making parts for them. You seem to be one of the only, and by far the best aftermarket companies around. I'm not saying "buy xxxxx parts because they are 50 bucks cheaper" im just trying to figure out 1: why there is such a gap in price for what appears to be the same exact kit sold from different locations by the same manufacturer and 2: other then the upgraded guide that is known to fail so often, what is really the difference in ordering from JHM for as opposed to someone else who sells other manufacturers parts? Sorry for the questions and if i sound like i'm butting heads...i don't mean to sound that way. I'll probably just order the kit from you anyways, its just a lot more than something like a tank of gas and x-mas is right around the corner...

The biggest reasons to order from us is because we are the ones supporting the community the most. If people don't order from us, we won't be able to support you. We also provide a TON of tech support, which you simply will not get from other vendors who just sling parts. We actually manufacture parts for the timing chain kit to make it better than OEM, which means you won't be able to get those better parts from other companies because we are the only ones who truly support this platform.


fast response! so then the one on E-bay is the OEM kit? and the on on your web site is JHM?

JHM Intermediate: https://jhmotorsports.com/shop/catalog/jhm-timing-chain-service-kit-jhm-oem-for-b6-b7-s4-intermediate-p-2312.html
OEM Intermediate: https://jhmotorsports.com/shop/catalog/jhm-timing-chain-service-kit-oem-for-b6-b7-s4-intermediate-p-1083.html

[VinnysS4]

Better than OEM for cheaper?? Sounds like a good deal to me. I really appreciate the information. I just didn't really want to start another timing chain thread with the same oid information.

[VinnysS4]

one last question for ya. might seem dumb but it made me think....why use the same exact picture for the 2 different kits(OEM and JHM) if they have different parts in them? do they all look 100% identical between the two kits or do you just not have a kit with the upgraded guide in it? or do you include the upgraded one with the OEM kit, hence the same exact photo? THANKS!

[Jake@JHM]

Better than OEM for cheaper?? Sounds like a good deal to me. I really appreciate the information. I just didn't really want to start another timing chain thread with the same oid information.

Yup, better and cheaper than OEM!

[Jake@JHM]

one last question for ya. might seem dumb but it made me think....why use the same exact picture for the 2 different kits(OEM and JHM) if they have different parts in them? do they all look 100% identical between the two kits or do you just not have a kit with the upgraded guide in it? or do you include the upgraded one with the OEM kit, hence the same exact photo? THANKS!

The upgraded guide we include in all kits now, but the JHM kit comes with our adjusters and the OEM comes with OEM

[dhjelm]

Popping in with an RS4 question if you don't mind. (Audi RS4 B7)

More or less right after I changed the camshaft position sensors, i got a new code:P1528 - 004 - open circuit - MIL ON.. Fault status:11100100, fault frequency:3

What does fault status and Fault frequency actually mean?

The mechanic used VAG-COM, to get this information. But his idea is that I need to change timing chain(!) witch for me makes no sense. As the code states that there is something goign on with the Camshaft Timing adj. Bank 1 (N205)

Are there times when the car thrown this codes that chain replacements are necessary?

The car wont start in the mornings when cold. I can hear some clicking here and there. But the starter motor does not react. The car starts after I wiggle a bit on some connectors..

The whole fault:

005416 - Camshaft Timing Adj. Bank 1 /N205)
P1528 - 004 - Open circuit - MIL ON
Fault status: 11100100
Fault priority: 0
Fault frequency: 3
Reset counter 255
Milage: 110494 km
Time indication:0

[jakeoboy67]

Popping in with an RS4 question if you don't mind. (Audi RS4 B7)

More or less right after I changed the camshaft position sensors, i got a new code:P1528 - 004 - open circuit - MIL ON.. Fault status:11100100, fault frequency:3

What does fault status and Fault frequency actually mean?

The mechanic used VAG-COM, to get this information. But his idea is that I need to change timing chain(!) witch for me makes no sense. As the code states that there is something goign on with the Camshaft Timing adj. Bank 1 (N205)

Are there times when the car thrown this codes that chain replacements are necessary?

The car wont start in the mornings when cold. I can hear some clicking here and there. But the starter motor does not react. The car starts after I wiggle a bit on some connectors..

The whole fault:

005416 - Camshaft Timing Adj. Bank 1 /N205)
P1528 - 004 - Open circuit - MIL ON
Fault status: 11100100
Fault priority: 0
Fault frequency: 3
Reset counter 255
Milage: 110494 km
Time indication:0

did the code pop up just after changing the sensors ?

[dhjelm]

Yes/No, about 2000 KM after.
I changed the position sensors at 108000-ish KM

[VinnysS4]

Do you still have the old cam sensor or access to a new one? Seems kindof like you may have gotten a bad part...that code is common with failed adjusters but if you just changed the sensor, it could be bad. Did you get a saved log of the vcds scan?

[dhjelm]

I binned the old sensors. But, I would assume that the new once are good since the P0010 code is gone. (?) I did not get the log. I took a picture of his screen, but that is as far as I got. Have had some communication problems with mechanics in Spain. And now I moved to Poland where my language is limited to those word I learned from Borat.

[audidd777]

just wondering what would happen if I dont get my timing chain served at 100000miles?

[Mr.Wrong]

just wondering what would happen if I dont get my timing chain served at 100000miles?
Absolutely nothing*. Some run quite well over 100k mile mark on original timing components and all is fine. It all depends on your car specific symptoms and how you're utilizing it. I'm planning on extensively modifying mine for much higher output as well as multiple track and strip visits. So I'll be doing mine at 100k just as a preventative maintenance. Otherwise if I were to just dd it with occasional spirited hauling, then probably could prolong it till 125-150k miles. Also if you're planning on keeping yours for a while, then why not earlier than later. There's always a risk of one of the guides completely disintegrating at some point, depending on its current state...

[Mr. Corey]

Absolutely nothing*. Some run quite well over 100k mile mark on original timing components and all is fine. It all depends on your car specific symptoms and how you're utilizing it. I'm planning on extensively modifying mine for much higher output as well as multiple track and strip visits. So I'll be doing mine at 100k just as a preventative maintenance. Otherwise if I were to just dd it with occasional spirited hauling, then probably could prolong it till 125-150k miles. Also if you're planning on keeping yours for a while, then why not earlier than later. There's always a risk of one of the guides completely disintegrating at some point, depending on its current state...

This past summer I went through replacing everything and anything that could possibly break and I was only at 68k. I had valve stems seals started failing on me so engine had to come out anyway. Glad i did it early because as Mr wrong said those timing guides are guaranteed to fail and one of mine had a hairline crack in it 30k before the suggested replacement.... so it was only a matter of time. Vinny if you can afford it I'd recommend replacing the valve stem seals and valve guides while the engine out as well.... Add some headers and you have and an incredible car!!!!

[0396]

This past summer I went through replacing everything and anything that could possibly break and I was only at 68k. I had valve stems seals started failing on me so engine had to come out anyway. Glad i did it early because as Mr wrong said those timing guides are guaranteed to fail and one of mine had a hairline crack in it 30k before the suggested replacement.... so it was only a matter of time. Vinny if you can afford it I'd recommend replacing the valve stem seals and valve guides while the engine out as well.... Add some headers and you have and an incredible car!!!!

Quick question regarding the valve stems, are you suggesting that one should do a valve job too? Heck, I'vebeen down that road on another motor. ..it simply never stops. 100+ miles. ..Audi sucks

[Mr. Corey]

Quick question regarding the valve stems, are you suggesting that one should do a valve job too? Heck, I'vebeen down that road on another motor. ..it simply never stops. 100+ miles. ..Audi sucks

Maybe I was just unlucky because I had an early build date..... but I've seen enough threads with other members having the blow by issues over the years. So why risk another problem if you have the engine out? I agree its a love hate with Audi and the B6/7 S4. Seems like most of the problems our cars suffer from Audi changed things up and made reliable 8 cylinders in the S5 and RS4.

[VinnysS4]

This past summer I went through replacing everything and anything that could possibly break and I was only at 68k. I had valve stems seals started failing on me so engine had to come out anyway. Glad i did it early because as Mr wrong said those timing guides are guaranteed to fail and one of mine had a hairline crack in it 30k before the suggested replacement.... so it was only a matter of time. Vinny if you can afford it I'd recommend replacing the valve stem seals and valve guides while the engine out as well.... Add some headers and you have and an incredible car!!!!

I have only done valve seals one time before. Never done guides. It's a good idea, I'm just curious how much a shop would charge to change then for me I'f I brought them the heads

[Mr. Corey]

I have only done valve seals one time before. Never done guides. It's a good idea, I'm just curious how much a shop would charge to change then for me I'f I brought them the heads

I went the pricey route and did the JHM heads but my buddy had his stock ones redone for around 1200 if i remember correctly.

[TarlCabot]

I have only done valve seals one time before. Never done guides. It's a good idea, I'm just curious how much a shop would charge to change then for me I'f I brought them the heads

i had a local shop put all new guides and seals, plus surface for $600
looked brand new

any head and block shop should be able to do this, they don't have to be Audi or BMW specific

[VinnysS4]

i had a local shop put all new guides and seals, plus surface for $600
looked brand new

any head and block shop should be able to do this, they don't have to be Audi or BMW specific

Thats not that bad of a deal. I guess my debate would be to buy some new/reworked heads and sell my old heads(nothing wrong with them, just like new stuff) or to just have a shop change the seals and guides. Either way the heads have to come off

[The Guvna]

There is a guy selling his B6 S4 with 170k miles on it who has never had the guides done. Miracle?

[badger.]

There is a guy selling his B6 S4 with 170k miles on it who has never had the guides done. Miracle?

Not really, I was at 164k when I did mine. It was cracked but I never had anything more than startup rattle once in a while.

[dkokorus]

Hey guys, so I just did the job. Mechanic and I double checked installed new parts. After we went through a test drive the code came back on. Any one else have this happen.

Code came up 16935

[jakeoboy67]

Hey guys, so I just did the job. Mechanic and I double checked installed new parts. After we went through a test drive the code came back on. Any one else have this happen.

Code came up 16935

http://wiki.ross-tech.com/wiki/index.php/16935/P0551/001361

a power steering code ?

[dkokorus]

Came up as a cam shaft malfunction bank 1 in mine


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[dkokorus]

It was the right upper guide thank god I do not need to pull the motor for that


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[neilpaku]

Hi, B6 2005 late VIN. Here's photos of my broken upper and left lower guides. Rear cover was a bit reluctant to come off but I used a plastic scraper (wedge) and screwdriver to apply moderate pressure while tapping and it broke it free. I think someone has been into this engine before. The sealant around the rear cover is brown. Is there a way to determine if this is the original engine in this car (or which # on the engine is the engine serial #)?
Cheers,
Neil
(pictures sideways for some reason)

Ground up plastic
21640 Mostly missing guide
21641 Partly broken upper guide
21642 General timing chain arrangement
21643

[0396]

Hi, B6 2005 late VIN. Here's photos of my broken upper and left lower guides. Rear cover was a bit reluctant to come off but I used a plastic scraper (wedge) and screwdriver to apply moderate pressure while tapping and it broke it free. I think someone has been into this engine before. The sealant around the rear cover is brown. Is there a way to determine if this is the original engine in this car (or which # on the engine is the engine serial #)?
Cheers,
Neil
(pictures sideways for some reason)

Ground up plastic
21640 Mostly missing guide
21641 Partly broken upper guide
21642 General timing chain arrangement
21643

How many miles did the motor have when you opened her up?

[VinnysS4]

https://youtu.be/3zyjyVUoe6c

Came across this..got me thinking... you can see the timing in vcds realtime. Does anyone know if this is accurate enough to use in diagnosing worn tensioner or cracked guides?

[TarlCabot]

https://youtu.be/3zyjyVUoe6c

Came across this..got me thinking... you can see the timing in vcds realtime. Does anyone know if this is accurate enough to use in diagnosing worn tensioner or cracked guides?

to start with... yes, if you know what to look for.....but, you will will hear chatter, then ultimately failure

[neilpaku]

How many miles did the motor have when you opened her up?

115k - was a little rattly when I bought it at 85k and got beyond my comfort zone at 115. I just pulled off the timing chains and opened up the camshaft adjusters. The right / passenger side wasn't very worn but the left side had the pin housing broken out. I wasn't expecting to see that but that explains why the left / driver's intake camshaft was "further" out of time than the exhaust. So, I'm looking for another 079 109 087N (supercedes L) if someone has one. I'll fit the JHM sprocket to it.
Cheers,
Neil.

[BugAudi1]

Mine went today. 135k. Started it up, normal half second of rattle kept going and sounded horrendous. The rpms jumped a little and it started to die so I shut it off. Ran about 5 seconds at the most.
Anyways I pulled the passanger side valve cover, the chain is tight and the guide is not worn at all. Is there more I should be looking for or should I jump to the other side?

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[TarlCabot]

Mine went today. 135k. Started it up, normal half second of rattle kept going and sounded horrendous. The rpms jumped a little and it started to die so I shut it off. Ran about 5 seconds at the most.
Anyways I pulled the passanger side valve cover, the chain is tight and the guide is not worn at all. Is there more I should be looking for or should I jump to the other side?

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that isn't the guide that will be worn :/ nor the port side... i wouldn't run her anymore sounds like you could have caught before valve damage, drop the tranny, flywheel... timing covers and check what failed... something did!

[BugAudi1]

Yeah, I think I caught it in the nick of time. Time to get the engine out! I'm betting on the big one in the middle.

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[VinnysS4]

ok so i used to have a little rattle on first startup. I switched oil and ran a oil treatment as i do with all my cars and the noise completely went away. Well just recently i have heard it a few times on a cold startup and once on a warm startup. I recorded a video of the noise today. Can some of you give a quick look and tell me what you think?
https://youtu.be/Ppabr7VyPbY
Thanks! i really appreciate it. I am on the verge of ordering the timing components from JHM, but that's expensive if it is just the check valves.
2005.5 S4 99k miles unknown if timing service has been performed.
thanks again!

[0396]

Oh, I was just thinking of a full timing job last week when I saw 1005 on my 2004 S/4. I was planning on purchasing the described kit too. But being that I still have to find a shop/ dealer for the conversion of some component. I simply call a Mgr at a local Audi dealer if he can assist with parts and labor discount..he said no worries. He will assist me . Car is going in at end of April..one less thing to worry about.

[2004B6S4]

Mine went today. 135k. Started it up, normal half second of rattle kept going and sounded horrendous. The rpms jumped a little and it started to die so I shut it off. Ran about 5 seconds at the most.
Anyways I pulled the passanger side valve cover, the chain is tight and the guide is not worn at all. Is there more I should be looking for or should I jump to the other side?

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It's possible that your ac/ compressor went and the rattle you're hearing is the broken driveshaft. I don't want to tell you to run the engine with a possible timing issue just to see if it blows cold air, so another way to check would be to jack up the car and look at the driveshaft, if you search the forums there's a thread with a picture and a better description of how to find it

[VinnysS4]

ok so i used to have a little rattle on first startup. I switched oil and ran a oil treatment as i do with all my cars and the noise completely went away. Well just recently i have heard it a few times on a cold startup and once on a warm startup. I recorded a video of the noise today. Can some of you give a quick look and tell me what you think?
https://youtu.be/Ppabr7VyPbY
Thanks! i really appreciate it. I am on the verge of ordering the timing components from JHM, but that's expensive if it is just the check valves.
2005.5 S4 99k miles unknown if timing service has been performed.
thanks again!

Anyone???

[FormulaElement]

I would go ahead with the JHM kit especially if you're going to be keeping the car.

On a side note, i've heard that same whine/groan/buzzing sound from all of these engines that happens for around the first five minutes of running. I've been chasing it on mine as its really bad in the cold. At this point i have changed every pump besides the oil pump.

I might change it to see if it gets rid of that sound unless someone knows where its coming from... I haven't heard of any of these oil pumps going bad before but the sound makes me think that they might be losing more efficiency with time than most other engines, thus leading to more timing problems.

I've changed all my timing components myself 20k miles ago and all of a sudden i am starting to get the sound again. I have the metal guide so i know its not that. I would just like to not have to do the timing service again.

[jr1415us]

I would go ahead with the JHM kit especially if you're going to be keeping the car.

On a side note, i've heard that same whine/groan/buzzing sound from all of these engines that happens for around the first five minutes of running. I've been chasing it on mine as its really bad in the cold. At this point i have changed every pump besides the oil pump.

I might change it to see if it gets rid of that sound unless someone knows where its coming from... I haven't heard of any of these oil pumps going bad before but the sound makes me think that they might be losing more efficiency with time than most other engines, thus leading to more timing problems.

I've changed all my timing components myself 20k miles ago and all of a sudden i am starting to get the sound again. I have the metal guide so i know its not that. I would just like to not have to do the timing service again.

Pretty sure it's the SAI pump. Mine's really loud during the first minute, especially during cold weather.

[FormulaElement]

Mine is unplugged ATM since it has a fault code anyways. I know what you're talking about and its really noisy, but this is a different sound.

[VinnysS4]

Have you touched the power steering at all? When there is air in the system it will groan like that. Sometimes it will go away after its been running for a minute. I would check the fluid for bubbles. If you need the correct bleeding procedure ( pretty important ) let me know!

[VinnysS4]

https://youtu.be/YzBu9fRZeNQ

This was recorded a few months ago. 2 different rattles I think. Opinions? ???

[BugAudi1]

It's possible that your ac/ compressor went and the rattle you're hearing is the broken driveshaft. I don't want to tell you to run the engine with a possible timing issue just to see if it blows cold air, so another way to check would be to jack up the car and look at the driveshaft, if you search the forums there's a thread with a picture and a better description of how to find it
Even with my A/C off? I honestly can't remember the last time I've used it.

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[jakeoboy67]

Even with my A/C off? I honestly can't remember the last time I've used it.

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Even if your a/c is turned off, the shaft and compressor are turning.

it's driven by the timing chain.

[BugAudi1]

Even if your a/c is turned off, the shaft and compressor are turning.

it's driven by the timing chain.
Oh. Woah. Something I didn't know. I assumed it was a normal belt driven setup with an electromagnetic clutch. Where do you see this drive shaft at under the vehicle? Might be worth a check.

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[VinnysS4]

The only thing run off a belt is the alternator. Everything else is gear driven. The gears that drive accessories are straight cut gears like a dog box transmission. That is why our engines have that little whine you can hear. The AC pump is run off a shaft that is ran from these gears.

[BugAudi1]

Well I just had a look underneath, only about an inch of the shaft is visable going into the compressor. It goes in perfectly straight. Couldn't reach it to jiggle it, but it looks good as far as I can tell. It could be stripped out at one end, but I don't really have any means of testing it (other than tearing stuff apart, in which I might as well wait until I do my chains). I really wish it was possible to get a paper copy of the Bentley. The DVD is worthless to me.

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[2004B6S4]

hmm sounds like it's probably not that, that idea was kind of a long shot anyways. If you want to be absolutely 1000% sure, I suppose you could have someone turn the engine by hand while you watch the shaft to see if it turns with the engine.

[BugAudi1]

I was thinking of just pulling the fuel pump fuse and having someone give it a quick crank. Unfortunately there is nobody around, last thing people wanna be doing on Easter. Haha. Though I did find a massive oil pan leak, so it wasn't for nothing.

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[neilpaku]

i had a local shop put all new guides and seals, plus surface for $600
looked brand new

any head and block shop should be able to do this, they don't have to be Audi or BMW specific

Did you also replace the valves? And if so, did you install stock ones yourself or have the shop do it?

[TarlCabot]

Did you also replace the valves? And if so, did you install stock ones yourself or have the shop do it?

no... valves were fine, shop did everything... i just had to replace half the cam cap bolts, because they had to drill them out (stripped)

[BugAudi1]

Doing my chains soon, need some input as to whether or not I should un-bolt the subframe and remove the engine/trans from the bottom? Or un-bolt from the tranny and pull from the top? I don't see any reason for pulling both the trans and the engine out of the top. Would I need to?

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[lunder03]

Where did they get the cam bolts from? I need to replace 4 of mine and haven't been able to find them?

[gsxt5r1]

Does anyone know the position or where I can find the position for the timing marks on the cam adjusters, I took them off today to rebuild them and have no idea where the timing line is suppose to point, it's the only thing holding me up at the moment

[evildsmr]

Does anyone know the position or where I can find the position for the timing marks on the cam adjusters, I took them off today to rebuild them and have no idea where the timing line is suppose to point, it's the only thing holding me up at the moment
There are no timing marks on the mechanical adjuster. Just need to make sure you spin the inside until the pin clicks before you put it back on the motor.

When I did mine I grabbed an air nozzle and covered up one of the holes on the back of the adjuster and shot air through the front to disengage the pin to make sure the mechanism functioned properly. Jhm has a video of this process.

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[gsxt5r1]

There are no timing marks on the mechanical adjuster. Just need to make sure you spin the inside until the pin clicks before you put it back on the motor.

When I did mine I grabbed an air nozzle and covered up one of the holes on the back of the adjuster and shot air through the front to disengage the pin to make sure the mechanism functioned properly. Jhm has a video of this process.

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Yeah I did all this and followed the video, I just noticed on one of the teeth on each adjuster there was a line which I assumed was a timing mark but from what you're saying they can go on in any position?

[evildsmr]

There are no timing marks on the mechanical adjuster. Just need to make sure you spin the inside until the pin clicks before you put it back on the motor.

When I did mine I grabbed an air nozzle and covered up one of the holes on the back of the adjuster and shot air through the front to disengage the pin to make sure the mechanism functioned properly. Jhm has a video of this process.

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Yes they can go in any position because they are not actually timed them selves. The only compresses the adjuster to the camshaft and the metal piece that goes over the adjuster which the timing tool sets the timing in relation to the exhaust cam hence the tool fitting to the exhaust cam. Like I said make the the pin is fully engaged inside the mechanical adjuster and you can put it on to the intake camshaft in any manner you choose.

What I did when I disassembled my engine was I made marks in relation to each gear on the chain. This made it a little easier to install lining up the marks and what not. But as long as the pin is engaged you can put that sprocket on any way you please.

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[gsxt5r1]

Yes they can go in any position because they are not actually timed them selves. The only compresses the adjuster to the camshaft and the metal piece that goes over the adjuster which the timing tool sets the timing in relation to the exhaust cam hence the tool fitting to the exhaust cam. Like I said make the the pin is fully engaged inside the mechanical adjuster and you can put it on to the intake camshaft in any manner you choose.

What I did when I disassembled my engine was I made marks in relation to each gear on the chain. This made it a little easier to install lining up the marks and what not. But as long as the pin is engaged you can put that sprocket on any way you please.

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Thanks so much, this is such a huge stress relief, I left the shop today pretty bummed out thinking that I could finish in time before the day was over, guess I gotta wait one more day, thanks again!

[VinnysS4]

i cant believe how long it takes to do the timing chain service on our cars. thanks audi!

[0396]

How long did the shop quote you?

[VinnysS4]

i dont remember if they gave me a time quote.. more just parts and their labor estimate. who knows exactly what they were going to change. ALLdata claims :

Timing Chain Replace

Camshaft Chain:

One Bank
Does Not Include: Engine R&I.
B 0.0 9.2
Both Banks
Does Not Include: Engine R&I.
B 0.0 10.9
NOTE

To R&R Chain Guides, Add
B 0.0 0.1
To R&R Tensioner, Add
B 0.0 0.1

Timing Chain:

One
Does Not Include: Engine R&I.
B 8.0 11.5
Both
Does Not Include: Engine R&I.
B 0.0 11.7
NOTE

To R&R Chain Guides, Add
B 0.0 0.1
To R&R Tensioner, Add
B 0.0 0.1

so 11.7 hours for the timing chains, not including engine R&I. i don't know how many hours they quote for engine removal and installation. My local Audi dealer charges $135 an hour so id assume it wouldn't be cheap

[BugAudi1]

What are the chances that I could just replace the timing guides and the cheaper of the tensioners and leave all the stock chains and sprockets be?
I am no longer looking to keep the car, just to get some of its value back in a trade. It's current condition is 135k on stock chains. Normal start up rattle became loud and lasted longer. When this happened I just shut it off and never put the key in the ignition again. No CEL for timing issues. At most I'll put 20k more miles on it. I know it's a gamble, but how often are these the only faults?

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[2004B6S4]

personally I doubt that any of the tensioners really need to be replaced, other than the one with the integrated plastic guide. Most people replace those while they're in there just to be safe, but I've never heard of an actual tensioner going bad so if you wanted to do things as cheaply as possible I think you could get away with replacing only the plastic parts. The cam adjusters only need to be replaced if they are too wallowed out to hold the pin in place, and if that's the case then you will have the corresponding codes. (obviously if they're showing significant wear then it's normally a good idea to replace them preventatively so they don't fail soon after completing the job, but if you're just planning to sell the car then there's no need to worry about preventatives)

[jakeoboy67]

any idea what would cause an intermittent hot start rattle, I replaced most timing components(JHM intermediate+) about 2000 miles ago.
oil checkvalves are also new, they have been changed while doing the timing.

+ could too much oil in the sump cause this kind of thing? , It started not too long after adding a little bit of oil (the level is now slightly over the max mark on the dipstick)

[ILVTRANCE]

any idea what would cause an intermittent hot start rattle, I replaced most timing components(JHM intermediate+) about 2000 miles ago.
oil checkvalves are also new, they have been changed while doing the timing.

+ could too much oil in the sump cause this kind of thing? , It started not too long after adding a little bit of oil (the level is now slightly over the max mark on the dipstick)

now your making me nervous even fixing my avant

[Green12valve]

http://s32.postimg.org/ehzdvsmzl/image2.jpg (http://postimg.org/image/ehzdvsmzl/)

Need information on test results of electric cam adjusters
i tested both of a set on a car im working on and on neither does the piston actually move? it just like vibrates? one is alot weaker than the other and the strong one was on the side with misfires...... what does a test of one show? other than the hum and vibrate....... dont wanna spend an extra 1400 if i dont have too

- - - Updated - - -

the top image where the cam adjuster goes one side spins freely and one side will barely move..... is it suppose to move freely or not? the side with the misfires was the side that spins freely

[52of250QUATTRO]

Hey- I'm looking to buy back my 25th Quattro from a friend. It has 68K. Well maintained. My concern is the timing chain. What have your experiences been? Should I worry?

[badger.]

any idea what would cause an intermittent hot start rattle, I replaced most timing components(JHM intermediate+) about 2000 miles ago.
oil checkvalves are also new, they have been changed while doing the timing.

+ could too much oil in the sump cause this kind of thing? , It started not too long after adding a little bit of oil (the level is now slightly over the max mark on the dipstick)


Did you replace the orings on the back of the tensioners (that don't come with the kit). If you didn't, the new tensioners don't come with the orings and you would have weak oil pressure on some tensioners. I'm not sure how too much oil would matter, unless you are way over and getting it frothy and getting bubbles instead of oil in some of the pressure ports. But I'm just spitballing on that, I could be way off base :)

Do you have cold start rattle at all? Is the hot rattle even truly that? I think this engine just likes to make noise sometimes even when everything is working 100%