Question for old guy, or any mechanical wizard with engine knowledge

[ColinBurger00]

I am having a heated argument with a coworker about the lamborghini galleardo and the 2010 Audi S6 having the same engine. I disagree that the Audi S6 has the SAME engine as the lamborghini, and this coworker is telling me that they are fundamentally the same? ?? I understand that Audi uses a few of the R&D and parts from the lambo engine, but to say they are the same? you would have to br drunk??? My coworker says that the only reason HP and Torque specs are different is because of tuning, but when was the last time you saw a car gain 200+ HP from a f**kin tune????

Can anyone please tell me the similarities and differences between the 5.2 Litre S6 engine and the Lamborghini Galleardo engine>???????? and murcealago engine...


I would like to put this debate to bed, as I can't understand how anyone would think a car 1/6 the cost would have the exact same engine considering that if it was a tune that made the difference they could just walk to a tuner and bring out the same HP...

thank you

[itsmatt33]

dont you just love how much knowledge old guy has serious the guy has a gift

[ColinBurger00]

its not like they roll a S6 body in to the Lambo factory and drop the engine in, but the engine that is put in the S6 is the same one in the Lambo and you could potentially tune it to produce the same specs that the Lambo engine produces.

This is an excerpt from your wiki article!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
it is talking about the Lambo engine that is used in three different audi's.
it"s right below this text!!, right there!!!
5.2 V10 40v FSI 386-412kW (Lamborghini/R8)
This is the second Lamborghini engine developed by AUDI AG, who became owners of Automobili Lamborghini S.p.A. following the takeover of Lamborghini by the GermanVolkswagen Group. It is a development of Audi's fundamentally identical 5.2 V10 FSI 320-386kW engine as used in the Audi C6 S6 and Audi D3 S8. This variant has been de-tuned for the Audi R8 V10.

[KGB]

Lol, props to your coworker.

[ColinBurger00]

Old Guy is a genius as far as Im concerned. BTW the second post I put up is this coworker saying that the "identical engine" was de-tuned and that the exact same HP can be achieved if the car was sent to RPI with reiger tuning, can anyone confirm or deny this??? I could be a brand new S6 owner and have the exact same engine performance as the lambo with just a simple tuning?????

[ColinBurger00]

Lol, props to your coworker.

Huh? Why isnt everyone running out to buy the new S6?????

here is a wiki blurp I found


Audi C6 S6 V10 engineMotive power in the C6 S6 powertrain features an all-aluminium alloy 5,204 cubic centimetres (317.6 cu in) Fuel Stratified Injection (FSI) 40-valve (four valves per cylinder) 90° V10 petrol engine (parts code: 07L, identification code: BXA). Compared to the similar, but completely unrelated 5.0 litre V10 engine found in the Lamborghini Gallardo,

[Elliott]

Is this the A4 forum?

[nycion]

"I would like to put this debate to bed, as I can't understand how anyone would think a car 1/6 the cost would have the exact same engine considering that if it was a tune that made the difference they could just walk to a tuner and bring out the same HP..."

I don't think the price ratio is correct...It seems like an S6 is ~70K and a Gallardo ~210K so that's 1/3. In addition, it is very common in the auto industry to use common components/engines and to pay extra for the name/image. For example VW - Audi have many things in common, but Audi has more prestige. In addition, you can buy a Chrysler that has a Mercedes engine/transmission for less money.

You also need to look at the production figures for each car - Audi it's a mass produced car and Gallardo is not that common (not saying S6 is, but you get the jist). More cars sold, more money. Lamborghini needs to make a profit as well, and they charge "a little" extra. There are also other perks and above everything is the looks/prestige thing...Performance it's a big thing also, but that can be matched by many cheaper cars (not to mention if you add some mods).

[ColinBurger00]

Is this the A4 forum?

Yeah man, who cares..

[itsmatt33]

next time put this in chatter box to avoid that^^^^

[Casius]

I don't see any problem with that. You need to look into how horsepower especially is measured. If, by quickly glancing at some figures, you consider where the power is measured you might get some clue as to how these engines are different. The S6 for example produces 435hp @ 6800 RPM and 398 TQ @ 3000. On the flip side the Gallardo produces it's peak hp at 8000 RPM and peak TQ at 6800 RPM. Right off the bat it's easy to see that the Gallardo version of the engine probably revs much higher and breathes much better. The simple fact that it revs higher produces a bunch more hp.
5.2L V10 is a huge engine there's a lot of room to play. Where the S6 variant has to be produced semi economical and consider environmental issues, the Gallardo variant is not held back by either of these considerations.
So yes, you can prob tune your S6 that high, but you'll probably spend $50 grand doing it.

[Audi Skate Snow]

yes it is the same motor as the lambo... just slightly different mechanically.

FYI if you look at parts on an R8 there are Audi stamps and Lambo stamps on engine parts.

[ColinBurger00]

yes it is the same motor as the lambo... just slightly different mechanically.

FYI if you look at parts on an R8 there are Audi stamps and Lambo stamps on engine parts.



Ok just so Im clear, a stock 1.8T is fundamentally the same engine and car as a 1.8T with a big full framt 30R Turbo, but what im saying is when crankshafts and internals are different, is it really the same engine? NO!!!!
There are so many V8 big block platforms that are eccentially the same engine, but when you consider the details and inner workings of the engine so many things make it so much different.

The Audi S6 has to have extreme differences in the engine build compared to the Lambo...

pistons?
crank shaft?
Cylinder head?
all that shit !!!

[nycion]

Ok just so Im clear, a stock 1.8T is fundamentally the same engine and car as a 1.8T with a big full framt 30R Turbo, but what im saying is when crankshafts and internals are different, is it really the same engine? NO!!!!
There are so many V8 big block platforms that are eccentially the same engine, but when you consider the details and inner workings of the engine so many things make it so much different.

The Audi S6 has to have extreme differences in the engine build compared to the Lambo...

pistons?
crank shaft?
Cylinder head?
all that shit !!!


Here's the deal: you're both right or you're both wrong or you're wrong and he's right or he's right and you're wrong. This can go on forever - just relax and let it go...

[JEENYUS]

the s6 engine is essentially the same as the gallardo engine. i think you should have researched it BEFORE you made a thread about it and instead of arguing with your co-worker...

[Dan[FN]6262]

the heads are different.

[ColinBurger00]

the s6 engine is essentially the same as the gallardo engine. i think you should have researched it BEFORE you made a thread about it and instead of arguing with your co-worker...

I did research it, and when he made the bold statment that you can send the car to RPI and have it tuned to be the exact same engine I came here. So you concur with him on that comment?

I know the base engine is fundamentally the same, but where does one draw the line? when is an engine different? If you owned the lambo and I owned the S6, and told you "yo dude, we have the exact same engine" you would lose your shit disputing it.

at what point is an ENGINE THE SAME, and AT WHAT POINT IS IT DIFFERENT??

[JEENYUS]

have you watched the top gear episode on the S6?

[JoshDub]

Id say if the block is the same, its pretty much the same. Everything else can be changed for the most part. The S6 has a more tame V10 then the gallardo. Pull it out, swap in some new pieces and you a gallardo motor. Swap in some better stuff and you have a v10 thats more powerful.

You are making this way more complicated then it should be.

And to answer your last question, no. No you can not tune the S6 to be the same as the gallardo. IIRC the gallardo is NA. the S6 is turbocharged. two completely different setups for Audis 5.2 V10.

EDIT: here is a link I found comparing the S8 V10 vs the Gallardo V10
http://www.germancarforum.com/pit-general-discussion/1431-s8-v10-vs-gallardo-v10-difference.html

[Papachristou]

Id say if the block is the same, its pretty much the same. Everything else can be changed for the most part. The S6 has a more tame V10 then the gallardo. Pull it out, swap in some new pieces and you a gallardo motor. Swap in some better stuff and you have a v10 thats more powerful.

You are making this way more complicated then it should be.

And to answer your last question, no. No you can not tune the S6 to be the same as the gallardo. IIRC the gallardo is NA. the S6 is turbocharged. two completely different setups for Audis 5.2 V10.

EDIT: here is a link I found comparing the S8 V10 vs the Gallardo V10
http://www.germancarforum.com/pit-general-discussion/1431-s8-v10-vs-gallardo-v10-difference.html

the s6 is not turbo'ed broski... V10, NA

[JoshDub]

the s6 is not turbo'ed broski... V10, NA

My bad. For some reason I was thinking RS6 which is Biturbo. My mistake. Thanks for catching that.

[secnd2no1]

The 2010 Audi S6 is equipped with a Lamborghini-sourced 5.2-liter V10 engine that produces 435-horsepower at 6,800 rpm and 398 pound-feet of torque at 3,000 to 4,000 rpm. A six-speed Tiptronic automatic transmission, which allows for both manual and automatic shifting based on custom settings, is standard. According to Audi, the S6 has a top speed of 155 mph and can accelerate from 0 to 60 mph in 5.1 seconds.


I am having a heated argument with a coworker about the lamborghini galleardo and the 2010 Audi S6 having the same engine. I disagree that the Audi S6 has the SAME engine as the lamborghini, and this coworker is telling me that they are fundamentally the same? ?? I understand that Audi uses a few of the R&D and parts from the lambo engine, but to say they are the same? you would have to br drunk??? My coworker says that the only reason HP and Torque specs are different is because of tuning, but when was the last time you saw a car gain 200+ HP from a f**kin tune????

Can anyone please tell me the similarities and differences between the 5.2 Litre S6 engine and the Lamborghini Galleardo engine>???????? and murcealago engine...


I would like to put this debate to bed, as I can't understand how anyone would think a car 1/6 the cost would have the exact same engine considering that if it was a tune that made the difference they could just walk to a tuner and bring out the same HP...

thank you

and its 127 HP diff. Not 200+

__________________________________________________ _________

There was also some speculation that the engine block of the original 5.0 litre Lamborghini V10 is closely based on the Audi 4.2 FSI V8, which Audi produces for their luxury cars. However, this was denied by AUDI AG, in their official documentation for their 5.2 FSI V10 engine, as used in the Audi S6 and Audi S8 - the Lamborghini 5.0 V10 has a cylinder bore spacing of 88 millimetres (3.46 in) between centres, whereas the Audi 5.2 V10 cylinder bore spacing is 90 millimetres (3.54 in).[3] The cylinder heads use the four valves per cylinder layout favoured by the Italian firm, rather than the five valve per cylinder variation formerly favoured by the German members of Volkswagen Group - including Audi and Volkswagen Passenger Cars. It was later confirmed by Stefan Reil of Audi's quattro GmbH subsidiary that the new 5.2 litre Lamborghini V10 does share technologes with the Audi 5.2 V10 engine, as is evident by Lamborghini's usage of Audi's Fuel Stratified Injection, and 90 mm cylinder spacing.[4]

[ColinBurger00]

Thank you very much for that!

[Audi Skate Snow]

if you guys ever have questions like this feel free to PM me

[pkny]

I did research it, and when he made the bold statment that you can send the car to RPI and have it tuned to be the exact same engine I came here. So you concur with him on that comment?

I know the base engine is fundamentally the same, but where does one draw the line? when is an engine different? If you owned the lambo and I owned the S6, and told you "yo dude, we have the exact same engine" you would lose your shit disputing it.

at what point is an ENGINE THE SAME, and AT WHAT POINT IS IT DIFFERENT??

In your opinion, is the engine in the Audi TT 1.8t 225hp the same as the Audi a4 1.8 170hp the same as the passat 1.8t 180hp the same as the jetta 1.8t 180hp?
They are all essentially the same engine with some minor modifications that can be done at any tuning shop. Granted I have been told that the TT has a larger bore size which can also be done on a tuning shop.
The main different is the support engine components that are different and different regulations as someone here already mentioned.

I think nascar engines are basically normal engine that are tuned to hell without any environmental concerns. But they produce much more torque and hp and cost so much more. (not sure how true that statement is)

[secnd2no1]

In your opinion, is the engine in the Audi TT 1.8t 225hp the same as the Audi a4 1.8 170hp the same as the passat 1.8t 180hp the same as the jetta 1.8t 180hp?
They are all essentially the same engine with some minor modifications that can be done at any tuning shop. Granted I have been told that the TT has a larger bore size which can also be done on a tuning shop.
The main different is the support engine components that are different and different regulations as someone here already mentioned.

I think nascar engines are basically normal engine that are tuned to hell without any environmental concerns. But they produce much more torque and hp and cost so much more. (not sure how true that statement is)

TT 225 also has the K04 which makes it have more power

[ColinBurger00]

I think if bore size is different and valves per cylinder is different, you just plain and simple have a different engine.... PERIOD... That was the point I was trying to make to my friend.. I understand that the basic mold of the block is the same etc etc, but where does one draw the line and say that NO his engine is not the same?

If I rolled up to you in a V10 S6 and looked at you in your galleardo LAMBO, and said to you... Hey dude, whats up, did you know our cars have the exact same engine?

what would the LAMBO owner say?

My guess is "GO F**K YOUR HAT!!!

[secnd2no1]

I think if bore size is different and valves per cylinder is different, you just plain and simple have a different engine.... PERIOD... That was the point I was trying to make to my friend.. I understand that the basic mold of the block is the same etc etc, but where does one draw the line and say that NO his engine is not the same?

If I rolled up to you in a V10 S6 and looked at you in your galleardo LAMBO, and said to you... Hey dude, whats up, did you know our cars have the exact same engine?

what would the LAMBO owner say?

My guess is "GO F**K YOUR HAT!!!


Listen dude The engine is SOURCED form the Lambo ....meaning essentially Most of the parts come from the Lambo (hence markings on engine that say Audi/Lambo)...... Ure dude was right but your right too it isnt 100% the same engine i bet if u add about 2 or 3 things to the core of that engine you could tune it back to add 127 HP back ....... even the Mitsubishi ralliart was De-tuned -54HP ...... if they wanted to De-tune it to -100 they could. WHY R U KILLING YOUSELF OVER THIS

[ColinBurger00]

Listen dude The engine is SOURCED form the Lambo ....meaning essentially Most of the parts come from the Lambo (hence markings on engine that say Audi/Lambo)...... Ure dude was right but your right too it isnt 100% the same engine i bet if u add about 2 or 3 things to the core of that engine you could tune it back to add 127 HP back ....... even the Mitsubishi ralliart was De-tuned -54HP ...... if they wanted to De-tune it to -100 they could. WHY R U KILLING YOUSELF OVER THIS

Guy if valves per cylinder is different and Cylinder bore spacing is different, that F-In motor is different end of story..

GM may use the same V8 platform for every engine etc, but when you change the head, the piston design, rods, crankshafts etc you have a different engine!!! thats my argument.

[secnd2no1]

Guy if valves per cylinder is different and Cylinder bore spacing is different, that F-In motor is different end of story..

GM may use the same V8 platform for every engine etc, but when you change the head, the piston design, rods, crankshafts etc you have a different engine!!! thats my argument.

Hmmmmmm...... pistons rods crankshaft are essential upgrades to maintain and hold power in an Engine

[JoshDub]

so if someone on here has a, lets say, built 1.8tt, they no longer have the same engine as anyone else with a 1.8t?

[secnd2no1]

so if someone on here has a, lets say, built 1.8tt, they no longer have the same engine as anyone else with a 1.8t?

I was just about to say..... if i wanted to slap on a 35r on my 1.8T ... my number one thing is to upgrade the internals in my engine Guy..... pistons rods valve stems crankshaft my Engine would be the same as any 1.8T but have Stronger Internals to hold the Power increase so i wont have a piston head Destroying my whole engine

[Dan[FN]6262]

the only thing you really need to upgrade for a 35R is exhaust valves and rods. everything else is fine.

[pkny]

Guy if valves per cylinder is different and Cylinder bore spacing is different, that F-In motor is different end of story..

GM may use the same V8 platform for every engine etc, but when you change the head, the piston design, rods, crankshafts etc you have a different engine!!! thats my argument.

I really don't understand you. You came here looking for an answer and the majority agreed with your coworker that he was more right then you. Not just regular people but some really knowledgeable folks here also agreed.
If it is not your answer then its not right?
How about this, contact someone from Cummins and ask them what is the definition of an engine and what would make them different. Their answer would be absolute. For the most part they are really helpful when i needed information during my college years and that is why i mentioned them.

I do see your side but do you have any engineering books to back your bold statements or are they just opinionated?
When i have time this week i will go ahead and ask one of the mechanical engineers around here if i remember.

[ColinBurger00]

Look someone said there is a bore spacing difference, and also number of valves per cylinder? that to me means different. Where different and the same meet for each of you is beyond me? I understand AUDI PRIDE, I own one, but im just looking for real engine details... I dont believe the HP difference is all TUNING... not when these fundamental differences are mentioned.

thats it

[secnd2no1]

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