Carbon Build Up - 2008 Audi A4 3.2L

[BEM3]

I wanted to share another carbon build up issue and have already posted this in the Audi FSI Engine Carbon Build-up Megathread in the Transmission & Drivetrain Forum.

Here’s another data point. This is my first post and unfortunately it doesn’t have anything good to report…

Vehicle Make/Model: 2008 Audi A4 3.2L
Location: Seattle, Washington
Mileage/Date: 11,990 miles / 30 November 2009
Oil used: Unknown. Dealer Supplied
Oil Change Interval: Average every 2850 miles*
Fuel Used: Chevron Supreme Techron (91/92 octane) or Shell V-Power (91/92 octane)
How short/long are your trips on average: 6 to 30 miles

Reported rough idle when cold to the dealer. CEL was on. Did not notice any loss of power.

Dealer invoice states:

“Verified Customer Concern. Hooked up scan tool, found five random engine faults. P0300, P0301, P0302, P0303, and P0304 (random cylinder misfire, cylinder misfire 1-4). Followed TSB 2019948/3, added fuel additive and road tested vehicle for 60 miles sustaining high engine RPM. Allowed vehicle to sit for several hours to repeat cold start up. Hooked up scan tool and cold started vehicle, MVB 14 registered 8 faults (4 in cylinder 1, 2 in cylinder 2, and 2 in cylinder 3). Will open TAC ticket. --- (Tech 2751) opened TAC ticket. They said to check camshaft adjustment. Performed check through MVBS 90-96 and they are fine, there are no sticking adjusters. Removed intake manifold and found carbon build up on back of valves. TAC said to perform cleaning as stated in the TSB. Cleaned valves, removed spark plugs, blew out carbon chunks. Reassembled and test drove. Let sit outside overnight and started cold. There was no misfire on any cylinder. Performed oil service per TSB. Closed TAC ticket. Done.”

Note:
Vehicle purchased new with 49 miles / 27 September 2008
Engine (short block) replaced for cylinder wall scoring 6521 miles / 14 April 2009
*Oil change interval shorted by engine replacement
Drove the car from Seattle to San Francisco and back. It currently has over 15,000 miles on it and its starting to run rough when cold again. Thank goodness for warranty!

[JoshDub]

holy damn. well atleast you have a warrenty! thats going to break the bank soon

[Hammer]

It is moments like this when my urge for APR 93 + HFC is quelled. CPO'd until 2014...then who knows what could happen. [:)]

[jimrobbington]

Then you trade for a new car!

[BEM3]

After the engine was changed under warranty, Audi of America extended the warranty (non-transferrable) on the engine and drivetrain another year or 12,000 miles.

It would be great to have a new car, but it seems like all the new cars that I like have direct injection.

[Miker2k]

Does anyone have a write up of that particular TSB? When the dealership told me I had carbon buildup causing rough idle/cold start problems there was no offer to clean them.....

[BEM3]

Sorry, I don't have a copy of the TSB. I asked the dealer, but they wouldn't give me a copy.

[Sal_B7]

Damn i definitely have a rough idle at cold start. I wish i would have checked out my valves better when i had my kit installed. I remember my buddy taking apart the intake manifold to put in the new injectors but at that time i had no clue about carbon build up.

[Hammer]

Then you trade for a new car!

It's a sharp looking car...maybe a rebuild into a weekend toy after serving as a daily driver? Keep dreaming man...keep dreaming lol... [:p]

[Tanner]

From what I've been told, naturally aspirated FSI engines will feel the effects of the buildup much sooner than forced induction (which makes sense).

[Sal_B7]

Yeah there are guys with RS4's and S4's already dreading this problem. That sucks!

[$lick]

Yeah there are guys with RS4's and S4's already dreading this problem. That sucks!

i dont think S4's are FSI

[Tanner]

Only S4 that is FSI is the new B8 S4.

[Nikoman]

Does the new TTS have this carbon build up issue?

[Tanner]

All FSI engines of Audi's will have this issue.

As I said before, forced induction engines will start to encounter CELs and such much later than naturally aspirated engines. R8 V8 owners are having the same problem. R8 V10 owners will experience the same eventually as it's too new at this time. A4 3.2FSI has this problem. The new B8 S4 3.0T will eventually. The new B8 A4 2.0T will to. All of them.

[scoobyx]

Unfortunately, I have to throw my story in the pile with the rest of you. I currently own a 2007 A4 3.2L S-Line. A couple of weeks ago (~29,500mi on the odometer), the CEL fired (I was also noticing some very hard idling in the mornings upon starting the car). I took the car into Nalley Audi in Roswell, GA. They updated the software on the car, supposedly to increase the tolerance for the cold-start errors that were causing the CEL to fire. The service rep told me that he thought he would see me back soon since he was guessing that I was experiencing carbon build-up in the engine. Imagine my surprise! At that point, I started doing some research on the internet - that's where I initially ran across this board. I read through posting after posting of carbon-related problems people are having with these cars. I hoped, at the time, that I wasn't going to fall into the same pit, but it wasn't to be.

My CEL fired again a week or so later. I brought the car into Nalley again whereupon they performed the second round of Audi-sanctioned service, the fuel treatment. (begin tongue-in-cheek moment...now)I was fortunate enough that a technician got to take my car home for the evening - since they were so busy but are required to put 60 miles on the car.(end moment here) I haven't let anyone drive my car so you can imagine how frustrating this scenario was for me. That aside, the tech brought the car back in the next day and hooked it up to the computer and lo and behold, the engine was still misfiring on one of the cylinders (#4, if I remember correctly). Nalley proceeded to service the vehicle. The car went into the shop on a Tuesday morning and I got it back late Friday afternoon. They had to remove the intake manifold assembly and manually remove carbon buildup in the engine.

Here's where the story gets interesting (at least to me). I had discussions with two different service advisors at the dealership. Both advisors confirmed that this is a "known" issue within Audi. One advisor went so far as to tell me that he's really disappointed that the company decided to use this power plant because of all the trouble they have been having with it. According to him, they are performing this service at least 2-3 times per week. Nice, huh? I asked both of them what I could do to alleviate the problem. They both told me that Audi was working on a fix. They also both told me that I should avoid short trips (not super easy, seeing as how I live in a major metropolitan area and I can easily get to almost anything I want within 10 minutes or less) and I should "drive the car like I stole it...". To be honest, this isn't really the answer I wanted. While I enjoy getting on the accelerator quite a bit, I can't/won't do it every time I am in the car. There are too many police around and sometimes, I even have guests in my car who I don't think would appreciate the aggressive driving style they are evangelizing.

I decided to call AoA to ask them to extend my warranty (time's up in Oct'10 on this car). I spoke with a rep named Lisa who did everything she could to make sure that I understood that Audi wasn't aware of this problem and that this is considered normal maintenance. This is where the disconnect exists - my dealer is telling me that Audi is working to fix the problem and AoA is telling me that there is no problem. I received a call back from Lisa a short time ago (Wed 1/27) informing me that she spoke with the dealership and obtained my service records and based on the fact that they performed the cleaning once and this isn't a known problem, they saw no reason to extend my warranty.

Anyhow, I have been out test driving some cars, in anticipation of this very situation. I didn't pay $45,000 to get into a maintenance clap-trap and I am certainly not comforted by the diametrically opposed stories I am getting from Audi. I have ZERO confidence that anyone at Audi is addressing this issue. I certainly don't believe that any fix will be available before my car falls out of warranty and I am stuck footing the $1500+ bill for the soda blast that they used on my engine this time around.

One last thing - I *religiously* put 93 octane fuel in the car. I have always avoided "Chet's Gas and Guzzle" in favor of the major suppliers in my area such as BP, Shell, Chevron, and QT. I have also only had the car serviced by my Audi dealership and despite Audi telling me that I can go 10k between oil changes, I do it every 5k, no matter what. There you have it - pay a premium at every turn just to have something like this happen. Thanks for nothing, Audi.

[Tanner]

Third paragraph: wow.

[ralentor]

I spoke with a rep named Lisa who did everything she could to make sure that I understood that Audi wasn't aware of this problem and that this is considered normal maintenance.Wait a minute...Audi claims that they aren't aware of a CB problem, yet they consider CB cleaning to be normal maintenance? How can they claim not to be aware of the CB problem if they consider CB cleaning to be normal maintenance? And furthermore, if CB cleaning is "normal maintenance", why is it missing from the official Audi A4 maintenance intervals?

[mickf29]

I think it is time to get rolling on a class action suit here. This is getting beyond ridiculous.

[TehDolphin3.2]

08 3.2 here with carbon issues as well, 21k. The light went on and off 3 times over the course of 2 or 3 weeks. Every time I made an appointment for service the light went off so I cancelled because Audi told me the computer clears the code. Light comes on for a 4th time and I'm finally able to get it in for service on the Jan. 22nd...Cyl. 1 misfire, probably caused by carbon build up is what they tell me.
Audi's solution for me, pay $170 for us to do a BG service that I'll have to do every few weeks. At this point they don't do any service, just clear the code. Dealer also tells me to beat the balls of the car. I'm not one to tear around needlessly and risk injuring myself, any one riding with me, or any one else on the streets so no thanks I'll drive my car like a normal person.
Yesterday the 26th, light back on.

Same situation as Scooby...5k between oil changes, 93 octane brand name fuel only.

[Miker2k]

After doing the fuel additive service last time and having their techs drive around for 60 miles at high RPMs (I wasn't thrilled either). The service manager told me to "drive it like you're 16 again" and if all else fails to put a for sale by owner sign in the window. Very very disappointed with the way Audi is handling this issue.

[Zebman]

Sorry you all are having problems. I just plan on riding it out and waiting for a performance high-flow head, performance camshafts and valvetrain kits to come out, then I will just swap the carbon-clung valves out! If you know your way around an engine, taking the head off a 2.0T, working on it and getting it back into time shouldn't be terribly hard.

That is no excuse though for what's happening. I believe Audi is either going to or has already started putting secondary injectors in front of the valves to spray gas on them and clean the valves.

[4ringcircus]

This pretty much confirms what I was thinking from a thread I started a few days ago http://www.audizine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=340160. The 3.2 FSI engines heat up slower than the 2.0T's, and it takes heat to burn off the carbon. My 5.5 2.0T is over 100K; former owner commuted about 75-100 miles per day/35,000 miles per year, so every time the engine turned on, it was ran good and hot. From the looks of it, BEM3's 3.2 is almost 2 years old and has 12,000 miles... you only drive it 16 miles per day, or 8 miles one way before turning it off. How long does that take you, 10 minutes? I also see you are in Seattle, what's the temp out there this time of year...?

Since I am a turbo owner, I want to know if an APR chip will help heat the engine faster and increase the carbon burn off. I certainly would help me drive like a 16 year old!

[RS4POWER]

Lisa chick must be related to Artur...

[BEM3]

4ringcircus might have a point regarding the heat of the engines. The 3.2s don’t rev as high and have no turbo.

The carbon build up is clearly a design issue since DI engines spray fuel directly into the cylinder. That said, does it really matter what kind of fuel is used since the fuel doesn’t even touch the intake or valves? Also, why would anyone what to generate more heat in their engine? This would just be another factor to increase engine wear.

My A4 is only 16 months old and has over 15,000 miles (The engine is only 8 months old). Most of my drives are about 25 miles and takes 35 minutes each way, so the engine gets plenty warm. On my shorter drives, which are infrequent, the car is running for at least 15-20 minutes because I’m stuck in traffic. IMHO, outside temperature isn’t really much of a factor. I have owned many cars over the years, including a 21 year old Corvette with 78,000 miles and have never had this kind of problem. I heard the Porsche Cayenne has carbon build up issues too. I was going to buy a Porsche 997.2 C2S but since it has DI, I’ve reconsidered.

In my experience, AoA doesn’t seem to care about customers and this situation should not happen, no matter how you drive the car, period.

BTW, I believe the car still stores a code even though the CEL goes off. I’ve seen a couple posts where the dealer said there were no codes stored because the CEL went off.

[MarkFank]

scoobyx - I have had an identical experience w/ my RS4.

Delivery August 2008. Almost exclusively use Chevron 91 (best available in my area).

CEL #1 on April 2 2009 5,275 miles. Misfires on #1,3,4. I cleared the codes to see if they would come back. First oil change was done prior at 5k miles.

CEL #2 Sept 4, 2009 9,674 miles. Misfires on #4. Took to the dealer this time. Had them do a 10k oil change and they said they've seen several FSI engines with carbon build up issues. Their protocal is to add a fuel additive, clear codes and see if the codes come back. I had the discussion w/ the tech that fuel additive won't do anything. He agreed but has to follow protocol. Grr.....

CEL #3 Oct 17, 2009 10,731 miles. Misfires on #2,4. They took the car in and they kept it over night. Started it the next morning & recorded misfires again. They removed the intake manifold & discovered a decent amount of carbon & they manully cleaned the valves. There were 2 other RS4s at the dealership with the exact same CB issue. Car felt fast again after the clean up! Tech recommendation is that these cars love to rev so drive it like you stole it! Um yeah, I can do that occasionally but don't want to buzz through the neighborhood at 7k rpms all the time. :-)

I hope Audi comes up with a fix. I think a water/meth injection system would help reduce the build up and then you could run a cleaner like BG44k through the injection system every 2500 or miles or so to help keep it clean. The only problem with this is that Audi would likely void the warranty.

[scoobyx]

scoobyx - I have had an identical experience w/ my RS4.

...

I hope Audi comes up with a fix. I think a water/meth injection system would help reduce the build up and then you could run a cleaner like BG44k through the injection system every 2500 or miles or so to help keep it clean. The only problem with this is that Audi would likely void the warranty.

Mark, I am super sorry to hear about your problems (as I am everyone who has posted to this forum noting this issue with their vehicles). I realize I am on the low-end of what I spent on my car versus you guys with the RS4's. I can't even imagine. In terms of the warranty, can you have someone like Stasis or another after-market approved brand put into your car and then have them pick up the warranty? My understanding is that if you have Stasis upgrade your car, they carry the warranty on the car going forward. That might be a good call...

I asked the dealership about the induction cleaning service and they quoted me ~$400. I always knew the cost of ownership on this car was going to be on the high-side, but that's crazy!

If this truly is part of the "ownership experience" for this car/power plant, I just wish the manual made mention of it and/or I was told about it up-front. I know...I could have told the sales guy that I was buying the car to run over orphans in the street and he would have still gladly sold me the car. But if the car needs to be constantly "stroked", it would have been nice to get the heads-up ahead of time (or some mention in the manual). At this point, I am considering getting rid of the car. It's truly heartbreaking because I can honestly say, "I love this car." I just don't want to go forward knowing with certainty that at some point in the relatively near future (read: sometime in the next couple of years) I am going to get saddled with a very expensive repair. I am also worried about the effects, over time, of having excessive carbon buildup and what it will do to the engine, in general. I am not a mechanic, so I can't hope to answer this question, but I can't imagine the answer is good. Also, aside from greatly reduced gas mileage, how much wear and tear am I putting on my car by running it around at ~4k RPM for extended periods of time (from time-to-time, like the dealership recommended)? Surely the oil is getting hammered and I may benefit from reducing my change intervals from 5k to 2.5k (again, $100+ a pop at my dealership).

Has anyone gotten the sense from someone at AoA that they are aware of/working on this issue? I really think that since this problem isn't causing an immediate threat to a person's health (e.g. Toyota's currently infamous sticking accelerator pedals) they're just going to try to ride out the storm. These cars are all going to fall out of warranty sooner or later and the A4 3.2 + RS4 must represent a much smaller footprint of Audi drivers compared to if they were having this problem with the A4 2.0T.

[CBRmatt600]

This along with the Cam Follower problem have been enough to completely turn me off from the Audi brand. Hopefully someone from Audi is getting this information, but if something isn't done within a year, they can kiss me goodbye. As soon as this lease is up, I'm going Porsche or BMW. The completely disregard from AoA is absolutely astounding.

[art1188]

Guess I'm a lucky guy then. I have an 06 A4 3.2 with about 34k on it now and have never had any problems like the ones everyone has been describing. Then again, I'm 22 so I probably drive it like I stole it more often than others :p

[Zebman]

I just hold high rpm longer, stomp it every once in a while through first and second, and use RLI oil now thanks to RS4power's suggestion. But honestly since I have a 2.0T, I look at this problem as extended maintenance, like a transmission rebuild. When I need it done, i'll clamp the coolant line off, move it, take the manifold off and have a few buddies over to bullshit and chisel at my valves.[wrench]

Question: After reading all these threads about manual removal, it's got me thinking: what is the realistic risk of damaging or unseating a valve by physical removal of this carbon? Is the carbon staring at you when you take the intake off, or is it on the backside and you have to get a chisel to the back of it? I'd imagine that to be difficult to reach.

[Kerby]

These misfire codes caused me to fail State Inspection in NY and no one seems to know how to get rid of the build-up thats causing the car to now run like a 82 corolla, not the good kind.

I am about fed up.

[TehDolphin3.2]

These misfire codes caused me to fail State Inspection in NY and no one seems to know how to get rid of the build-up thats causing the car to now run like a 82 corolla, not the good kind.

I am about fed up.
Did you have an active CEL when you went for your inspection?

[Kerby]

Did you have an active CEL when you went for your inspection?

The light was cleared, but it was still stored, and when they ran it the Misfire diag showed "Not Ready."

I got an inspection sticker, but not the legal way.

[Sanjman]

I just asked my dealership and they quoted me 200 for the 2.0T engine... I'm getting'er done soon

[A4_Eyez]

I just asked my dealership and they quoted me 200 for the 2.0T engine... I'm getting'er done soon

For the BG cleaning?

[ked]

I should "drive the car like I stole it...". .

I was told the same by my service advisor. I'm already a "spirited" driver so punching it every now and again doesn't bother me but, for the average driver, there has to be a better solution to the issue.

[Tanner]

Same here, well, not in those exact words but he did say that these FSI engines need to breathe and pushed time to time.

[Mezzer]

My car is at Independent Tuning right now getting the carbon cleaned out. I talked to Bryan late yesterday and he told me that my engine wasn't as bad as others that he's seen, comparing my 3.2 to 2.0 engines. The reason I took my car in is I am also getting random misfire codes from time to time as well as hard morning starts and with 150,000KMS on her I thought its time for a cleaning.
I do drive rather 'spirited'... by that I mean that I use the Tip mode most of the time and hold the rev's up while driving. I'm going to have some pix soon and will post for those that want to see. I also change my oil every 7000KMS, as the service interval is around 14000KMS.

[EuroSpec27]

So basically if I drive like a maniac I'll never have to worry about this problem? My does car hesitate to start sometimes, but once it gets going it seems to be fine. Also, I have not had the CEL come on and the I'm just about to reach 28k miles.

[oc-drop]

I've had my 3.2 for 6 mos and driven 20k miles (35k-55k) ~ no carbon issues yet. lots of redlines though, seems they help.

[Tanner]

So basically if I drive like a maniac I'll never have to worry about this problem? My does car hesitate to start sometimes, but once it gets going it seems to be fine. Also, I have not had the CEL come on and the I'm just about to reach 28k miles.

I wouldn't say "drive like a maniac" but rather keep the revs high and give it WOT from time to time.

[JGreen76]

I have no CEL's, nor do I notice any real problems. When I start the car in the morning, my idle seems to have a pulse to it... It's not a rough idle, but more of a pulse sound. Is that normal, or do you think I should see if CB is creating this? My car has 46K on it.

[rmh]

One more data point. My car: 2008 A4 B7 3.2 6MT


I've got the Ross-Tech VCDS scanning tool and have been scanning my car every 2000-4000 miles since I got it and I've captured logs of all my scan results and summarized them into a spreadsheet with every maintenance item performed on the car. I work a lot from home, so my car sits for extended periods of time, between relatively long drives. I'm a spirited driver, so I change my oil every 5000 miles. I had AudiCare thrown in when I bought the vehicle, so all work has been performed at the dealer to date.


For the past 8000 miles, I've been getting P0303, P0304, P0305, P0306 and P0300 codes (VAG codes 000771, 000772, 000773, 000774 and 000768, respectively).


My CEL has come on twice (it doesn't come on when the codes start showing up, only after some period of time) and is currently at the dealership. TSB 2019948/2 was performed almost exactly 4000 miles ago. Service advisor tells me that all DI engines by all manufacturers are starting to see this problem since the fuel isn't flowing past the valves and cleaning the valves. Service advisor tells me BMW, VW, Audi, Honda, Toyota, and GM all advise their vehicle owners to use Top Tier gas (see http://www.toptiergas.com/index.html, http://www.toptiergas.com/retailers.html, and http://www.toptiergas.com/deposit_control.html).


I spent quite a bit of time researching the availability of Top Tier gas in my area, and there are currently 23 locations where I can even find Top Tier gas within 50 miles of where I live, and I think 1 within 10 miles.


Typical VAG-COM scan snippet (note only 2 throw a MIL):

000772 - Cylinder 4: Misfire Detected
P0304 - 007 - Short to Ground - Intermittent - MIL ON
Freeze Frame:
Fault Status: 10100010
Fault Priority: 6
Fault Frequency: 4
Reset counter: 40
Mileage: 37794 km
Time Indication: 0

Freeze Frame:
RPM: 1472 /min
Mass Air / Rev.: 207.1 mg/str
Temperature: 16.5°C
Part Throttle
Time: 51.2 s
Speed: 11.0 km/h

000774 - Cylinder 6: Misfire Detected
P0306 - 007 - Short to Ground - Intermittent - MIL ON
Freeze Frame:
Fault Status: 10100010
Fault Priority: 6
Fault Frequency: 5
Reset counter: 40
Mileage: 37794 km
Time Indication: 0

Freeze Frame:
RPM: 1472 /min
Mass Air / Rev.: 207.1 mg/str
Temperature: 16.5°C
Part Throttle
Time: 51.2 s
Speed: 11.0 km/h

000773 - Cylinder 5: Misfire Detected
P0305 - 007 - Short to Ground - Intermittent
Freeze Frame:
Fault Status: 00000010
Fault Priority: 6
Fault Frequency: 1
Reset counter: 5
Mileage: 37794 km
Time Indication: 0

Freeze Frame:
RPM: 928 /min
Mass Air / Rev.: 179.8 mg/str
Temperature: 19.5°C
Idle
Time: 51.2 s
Speed: 4.0 km/h

000768 - Random/Multiple Cylinder Misfire Detected
P0300 - 006 - Short to Plus - Intermittent
Freeze Frame:
Fault Status: 00000001
Fault Priority: 6
Fault Frequency: 5
Reset counter: 40
Mileage: 37794 km
Time Indication: 0

Freeze Frame:
RPM: 1472 /min
Mass Air / Rev.: 207.1 mg/str
Temperature: 16.5°C
Part Throttle
Time: 51.2 s
Speed: 11.0 km/h

000771 - Cylinder 3: Misfire Detected
P0303 - 007 - Short to Ground - Intermittent
Freeze Frame:
Fault Status: 00000010
Fault Priority: 6
Fault Frequency: 1
Reset counter: 23
Mileage: 38416 km
Time Indication: 0

Freeze Frame:
RPM: 896 /min
Mass Air / Rev.: 163.5 mg/str
Temperature: 21.0°C
Idle
Time: 51.2 s
Speed: 0.0 km/h

[Tanner]

HAve you tried using a fuel line cleaner? The high pressure injectors are known to get a bit clogged up. I had a few misfires but one noticeable misfire that generated a fault code but no CEL. Went through two tanks with Motul fuel line cleaner, ran it hard (italian style tune-up) and the back bumper was covered in soot. Since then, no issues and use one bottle of the stuff every six months now. It won't prevent buildup on the intake valves of course.

If the misfires continues after using two tansk with the cleaner, I'd then be pressuring Audi to look at the intake valves. Document everything that you have done along the way.

[rmh]

The last time my car was in at the dealer with the initial carbon buildup misfire CEL, I ended up with a bottle of "Fuel Additive for Petrol Engines", in my car. I'm sure it's what the dealer used on my car. Why I had a full bottle on the floor of the passenger's seat is unknown.

On this (full) 150ml bottle, it says: Made in Germany, Distributed by Volkswagen AG. It has the VW, SEAT, SKODA and Audi logos on it. It is part # G 001 700 03. Instructions say to mix 10 ml per 10 litre petrol to prevent corrosion, carburetor icing and keeping intake ports clean. See either http://www.worldimpex.com/parts/oem-cleaner_71921.html or http://www.ecstuning.com/Search_VW/G00170003/ to buy some.

I think I'll pick up a case of this stuff and run it through periodically.

Update:
Got my car back from the dealer today.

Service advisor (SA) gave me another bottle of the additive (part #G00170003), and tells me to put it in a full tank of gas in about 1500 miles.

SA tells me that this stuff is the Audi recommended way to keep valves and injectors clean. SA also told me that their service procedure involves much less than a full tank of gas and a full bottle of this additive, then they drive the car for 90 miles and retest.

Hmmm, let's see... The bottle says 10ml to 10l (1:1000 additive:fuel ratio) which equals 1ml per 0.264 gal, so for the 16.6gal tank in my A4, I should use 62.84ml of the stuff. So, a full 150ml bottle in my tank yields a 1:419 additive:fuel ratio.

I asked SA about the use of Motul Fuel System Cleaner - he didn't know the formulary differences between that and the Audi product.

I just called ECSTuning - this part # is currently not available to the public - it's on something like a referral hold from Audi, the great guy I spoke to at ECSTuning said that when parts go on this status it means that either there's a recall coming or something but it's to ensure that the dealers can get the quantities they need. Bummer...

Update:
The good news is that my SA told me that I can buy this product at the parts counter and get my ACNA discount on it. I'll update later with the details on (hopefully, case) pricing.

[BEM3]

I wanted to share another carbon build up issue and have already posted this in the Audi FSI Engine Carbon Build-up Megathread in the Transmission & Drivetrain Forum.

Here’s another data point. This is my first post and unfortunately it doesn’t have anything good to report…

Vehicle Make/Model: 2008 Audi A4 3.2L
Location: Seattle, Washington
Mileage/Date: 11,990 miles / 30 November 2009
Oil used: Unknown. Dealer Supplied
Oil Change Interval: Average every 2850 miles*
Fuel Used: Chevron Supreme Techron (91/92 octane) or Shell V-Power (91/92 octane)
How short/long are your trips on average: 6 to 30 miles

Reported rough idle when cold to the dealer. CEL was on. Did not notice any loss of power.

Dealer invoice states:

“Verified Customer Concern. Hooked up scan tool, found five random engine faults. P0300, P0301, P0302, P0303, and P0304 (random cylinder misfire, cylinder misfire 1-4). Followed TSB 2019948/3, added fuel additive and road tested vehicle for 60 miles sustaining high engine RPM. Allowed vehicle to sit for several hours to repeat cold start up. Hooked up scan tool and cold started vehicle, MVB 14 registered 8 faults (4 in cylinder 1, 2 in cylinder 2, and 2 in cylinder 3). Will open TAC ticket. **- (Tech 2751) opened TAC ticket. They said to check camshaft adjustment. Performed check through MVBS 90-96 and they are fine, there are no sticking adjusters. Removed intake manifold and found carbon build up on back of valves. TAC said to perform cleaning as stated in the TSB. Cleaned valves, removed spark plugs, blew out carbon chunks. Reassembled and test drove. Let sit outside overnight and started cold. There was no misfire on any cylinder. Performed oil service per TSB. Closed TAC ticket. Done.”

Note:
Vehicle purchased new with 49 miles / 27 September 2008
Engine (short block) replaced for cylinder wall scoring 6521 miles / 14 April 2009
*Oil change interval shorted by engine replacement
Drove the car from Seattle to San Francisco and back. It currently has over 15,000 miles on it and its starting to run rough when cold again. Thank goodness for warranty!

UPDATE:

Carbon build up again despite driving the car longer and harder…

Vehicle Make/Model: 2008 Audi A4 3.2L
Location: Seattle, Washington
Mileage/Date: 18,082 miles / 01 April 2010
Oil used: Unknown. Dealer Supplied
Oil Change Interval: Average every 4520 miles*
Fuel Used: Chevron Supreme Techron (91/92 octane) or Shell V-Power (91/92 octane)
How short/long are your trips on average: 6 to 30 miles

*Oil change interval shorted by engine replacement and valve cleaning

Issue: “Client states CEL is on and vehicle has a rough idle when started cold”

Dealer invoice states: “Verified Check Engine Light was on, performed guided fault finding, found fault P0301 Cylinder 1 misfire detected, P0303 Cylinder 3 misfire detected, both were at cold start, checked for TSB’s, found TSB2020645/4 for ECM update, updated software, suggest leaving car overnight to cold start and verify repair retested AM ok.


Less than a week later…


Vehicle Make/Model: 2008 Audi A4 3.2L
Location: Seattle, Washington
Mileage/Date: 18,255 miles / 09 April 2010
Oil used: Unknown. Dealer Supplied
Oil Change Interval: Average every 4520 miles*
Fuel Used: Chevron Supreme Techron (91/92 octane) or Shell V-Power (91/92 octane)
How short/long are your trips on average: 6 to 30 miles

*Oil change interval shorted by engine replacement and valve cleaning

Issue: “Client states the Check Engine Light is on. Please verify and advise (rough when cold)

Dealer invoice states: “XXXXX Could not verify concern.. No Check Engine Light on. Ran GFF and found faults P0301 and P0303. Same faults as before engine replacement. Removed all six coils and spark plugs. Checked cylinder walls for wear. Cylinder 3 shows reseding cross hatch. Checked history and found short block has been replaced, valve cleaning has been performed 6000 miles ago. ECM update has been performed. Camshaft Tensioner has been replaced for misfires on one bank. After gathering all information on this vehicle made a TACS Ticket. Access code XXXXXX. Case number XX-XXXXXX. Instructed to perform another valve cleaning and application of G17 fuel additive to fuel system following TSB number 2019948/3. Had 2 hrs of diag and preperation prior to repair. Added fuel additive to fuel tank, also filled gas tank with 10 gallons of fuel and drove vehicle for 60 miles. Slight misfires still felt. Removed intake manifold and air distribution housing. Cleaned off valves and swapped Injectors 1 with 4 and 3 with 6 for further diag in future if needed. Replaced all seals on swapped injectors. Removed all spark plugs and blew out any debris. Reinstalled all removed components. Performed an oil change under warranty as per TSB. Cold started vehicle and verified no cold start misfires. Every once and a while the vehicle needs to be driven harder than normal to clean off any carbon buildup on back of valves. Placing fuel additive in truck of vehicle and recommend adding in 3000 miles. G17 additive should be added on full tank.”

I am not confident that this is a permanent fix, but at least the dealer is doing what they can.

[Red Baron777]

I wanted to let you know of my experience with my 08 A4 Cab s-line 3.2 concerning the CEL issue. I bought this car a year ago with very low miles(8K) on it. I have the remainder of the factory warr. and the CPO. I started experiencing CEL issues at about 16K. I brought it to dealer at 20K and they did the usual additive and test drive and returned it to me. The car now has 25K and is in for its routine service. The CEL has being going on and off for the last 5K miles. The dealer is now manually cleaning all the valves and returning the car to me, probably tomorrow. I have used only Shell premium since I had the car and will continue to do so. We will see what happens when I get the car back. As a side note, I have had many Audi's since the early 2000's as did my wife(she's had 2 S-4's and an A4(when the S4 was not available in 2003, I believe). I had a major problem with my 2002 A4 where it was burning thru cat converters. After replacing 3 CC and not knowing what else to do, they took the car back and gave me a new 2003(the 2002 was not in production anymore). Prior to that my daughter's VW Passat just stopped while driving for no apparent reason. After jumping thru some hoops, they took that back also and refunded to me all my payments less wear and tear on the car. That's when I bought her the 2001 A4 1.8T which is still on the road with 93K miles. Suffice it to say, I am a believer in the product and feel I have been treated fairly by them, so far. I will have to wait and see how this current problem plays out.

[vwjetta1.8t]

I've just picked up an 07 3.2 a4 avant 3 weeks ago and my cel started flashing the second day I had the car. My ESP light also came on at the same time. I was on the highway and the car was shuddering and there was reduced power on acceleration. Brought it to the dealership and they changed the fuel injector in cylinder 2. Car ran ok until today. 1500k later and the same problem. I was backing into my driveway when I felt the car start shuddering (misfire?). The esp light came on then the CEL started flashing. Are these the same symptoms that you guys with carbon issues experiencing? Hooked the car up to an OBD2 and getting codes p0202 and p0302.

[Red Baron777]

Not me. The CEL would come on at cold start-up and although it stayed on, the car ran fine after about 20 seconds. By the way of my first post, the dealer pulled off the heads and the intake manifold fold, manually cleaned all the valves andfound a faulty injector in one of the cylinders. They replaced it and I have had the car back for 1,000 miles and it seems fine, at least for now.

[min417]

Hey all-
Just came back running some freeways after reading the threads. =)

I also have had the carbon build up issue on my 3.2 at 12K miles, with the check engine light on. Engine kept on misfiring and the dealer removed intake and inspected for carbon build up and they actually had scraped the build up off. Then again by 15K miles the light came on again and had to take it to the dealer again for same issue, this time cleaning up all intake valves and cylinders. I was given the VW fuel injector cleaner to be put in with next gas fill up, where they recommended to burn up.

[rmh]

Another update - 3rd CEL within 8000 miles, last one was about 3000 miles prior. Car is back at the dealer today (again).

In my experience, the Audi G-001-700-03 HD6-C additive doesn't help and neither does the 'spirited driving' technique. See my update here:

http://www.audizine.com/forum/showthread.php/336352-Audi-FSI-Engine-Carbon-Build-up-Megathread?p=5489076&viewfull=1#post5489076

[Tanner]

Audi's process in troubleshooting this is first using additives to determine if the injectors are dirty. That did help me a few years ago. Hard driving from time to time only helps to delay the problem from occurring as long as possible to the point where the intake valves needs to be cleaned by hand.

What I do know is that the CEL seems to come on and flash if the misfire count on a cylinder exceeds 100. You will get misfires from time to time but they're low enough that it's not an issue at all. If you're driving around and feel the misfires, get off the throttle, coast a bit, and it'll reset the count back to zero. Only found that out when I was logging the misfires via the ross-tech tool and when one of the cylinders exceeded 100 misfires, the flashing CEL then came on. Of course the CEL could come on if there's a big misfire I imagine. :)

[homieelee]

having the same issue. i didn't even know something wrong was going on. I had no rough idles other than one start the tach dipped a bit but idled right back up. No power loss.

'08 A4Q3.2 6MT bought CPO at 23k. I got CEL at 28k, car is at the dealership now. Service manager reported back of cylinder misfires and are in the process of cleaning the valves due to carbon buildup.

I would say I have driven this car pretty heavily. Easier to sustain higher revs and hard acceleration since it's a manual. however after reading this thread it's disappointing to hear that we MUST drive the car hard, and even then it might not help. just seeing that there is a MEGATHREAD on carbon buildup is enough to make me angry at audi. hope there is a solution to this soon.

[Tanner]

No there won't be a solution from Audi.

All you can do is probably put in a catch can which should delay the issue significantly.

[ossodiseppia]

This is indeed disappointing as I am contemplating a 3.2 Avant. The car that I am considering has been in the shop multiple times for this issue. Fuel additives and valve "cleaning" were the fix each time.

The vintage cars I drive are notorious for carbon build up because most owners putter around in them. The fix has always been an Italian tune up which involves some very spirited driving.

So, I'm wondering if the spark plugs are not hot enough and if there is a hotter plug that might help.

[Tanner]

So, I'm wondering if the spark plugs are not hot enough and if there is a hotter plug that might help.

Nope. Spark plug doesn't make things hotter, it's just a spark to ignite the fuel/air mixture. Oil vapour in the blow-by gas is the issue which collects on the intake valves. Oil vapour separator isn't up to the job really in our 2.0Ts so catch cans help considerably. Though it's not 100% effective either due to valve overlap but it delays the issue much longer.

[ossodiseppia]

Thanks for clearing that up. I've been reading thru the carbon build up thread. There's lots of chatter about additives. Then, there is the BSG treatment. Someone even commented about the old school method of ice water. The old school method I learned was to dump ATF into the carburetors. That stuff is caustic and does a great job of cleaning valve deposits.

I really like the Avant and I want a 3.2l. But now, I'm getting cold feet about getting one. My VW with the 24V VR6 has been a great reliable car. All I do is change the oil and filter every 5k miles and drive it.

[Tanner]

I paid say around $700CDN to do the cleaning on my turbo four. on a V6, it'll be a bit more obviously but if this is done every 50-60,000 miles, it's not that big of a deal. Just a minor nuisance cleaning, so if you plan on not forever keeping the car, plan on getting this maintenance thing done once at least.

All newer cars are going to direct injection, nothing out there right now is totally foolproof in mitigating the buildup on the intake valves. Even Toyota's approach, using a secondary port injector to spray the intake valves once in a while to wash it, isn't a 100% working solution. Mini Cooper S's with the turbo engine has the same buildup issue too as it's direct injection also.

[Euro Vs Earth]

I have the wonderful 3.2 as well. Now this problem does seem like a design issue that should be dealt with accordingly. I've heard just about everyone with a problem with the carbon build up runs high test gas.
Does the problem lay with bad gas, not high enough test gas (93+), or should we just all pool our resources and hunt us down someone who will help us find/construct ourselves some awesome Heads and through in a sweet cam.
Jeez lets let our voices be heard and flip the stigma about the 3.2b7 being the black sheep in the tuning world... Anyone?

[Tanner]

It's a inherent weakness with all direct injection engines. I've been running shell v-power since day one and still had to get the intake cleaned at 102,000km. There is a solution right now that will resolve most of this issue, it's called a catch can.

[ossodiseppia]

I have the wonderful 3.2 as well. Now this problem does seem like a design issue that should be dealt with accordingly. I've heard just about everyone with a problem with the carbon build up runs high test gas.
Does the problem lay with bad gas, not high enough test gas (93+), or should we just all pool our resources and hunt us down someone who will help us find/construct ourselves some awesome Heads and through in a sweet cam.
Jeez lets let our voices be heard and flip the stigma about the 3.2b7 being the black sheep in the tuning world... Anyone?

It's not a design issue as most think. This is really just the nature of the beast. Read through this entire thread and you should get a better understanding of what's causing this issue.

This issue seems to be very common in all direct injection cars. I've been snooping around a few forums and have read complaints about Mini, BMW, VW and Porsche. I am sure there are others.

Blow-by gases are sent through the intake to be burned in the combustion chamber. This, I think, has been done since it was mandated by the US Federal government in the late sixties. Other countries may have adopted this. These blow-by gases contain oil vapor. The oil vapor sticks to the back side of the valve and the valve face.

In a multi-port injection engine. gas is squirted on the back side of the valve to get the gas (and air) into the combustion chamber. This delivery method is sufficient to reduce these deposits. When these deposits do build up, a fuel additive works to help reduce them. I prefer the Italian tune-up method over this.

Direct injection engines squirt directly into the combustion chamber. Therefore, no gas hits the back of the valve. So, there is nothing to reduce these deposits or keep them from forming.

Some folks are routing the blow-by gases to a catch can. When the oil vapor hits the inside of the can, it condenses and is collected in the bottom. From time to time, the can is removed and drained.

I own two vintage Alfa Romeos. Both have an oil vapor recovery system. The oil vapor is separated and returned to the crank case. The gases get vented into the air cleaner.

http://www.alfabb.com/bb/forums/attachments/spider-1966-up/161634d1261888882-euro-air-box-conversion-ovs-spica_small.jpg

I hope this helps.

[A4 Centaur]

Hey, I saw something years ago that you would spray into the head and let sit for an hour or so. Then you would replace your plugs, and fire the engine back up WOT for a spell. I think it was designed for boat engines?

[ScoGold]

Was all of this covered under warranty or Audi Care?

I just purchased a CPO A4 3.2 B8 and am at 18k miles. Do you think performing an oil change every 5k will prevent the Carbon Buildup?

Sorry for the noob questions.

[WasGTIguy]

I just had the carbon cleaned out last month. My engine light was on and sent the car in. My injectors were soaked and had carbon build up. The car had 70,000km and was done under warranty

[Tanner]

Warranty and CPO will cover cleaning. Changing the oil that often won't really help prevent carbon buildup, because that's what I did more or less.

[wackogracko]

Im about to get a '08 2.0T S-line and it has 28k on it. Does anyone have a rough estimate of the mileage that carbon buildup is starting to occur at for the 2.0T? It looks as though the 3.2L are happening before or around 20k, and definitely before 30k. The reason I ask is because if I purchase the car, it only has a year left on the warranty, so I am debating whether I should wait to get the extended until just before the factory warranty runs out or if I should tack it on right now. Thanks in advance.

[Tanner]

A large factor is driving style. It seems that a lot of short drives will bring the issue sooner vs later, while others that drive continuously for quite a while (to the point that the engine is properly warmed up) the issue comes later. I know of a 3.2L owner that has probably 70-80,000 km and no issue. I had issues starting around 95,000km and had the intakes cleaned shortly after on my 2.0T.

Cleaning a 2.0T from the dealer if I recall, was just under $700CDN taxes in.

[wackogracko]

Thanks for the info. Most of the driving I will be doing will be 20+ min on the highway, but I need to inquire what kind of miles the previous owner put on it and whether or not they were commuting or driving around town. The clutch feels a little soft (it catches right at the end of the stroke of the pedal) but the thing that I'm a little worried about is the engine seems to have a pulse to it, like mentioned at the top of this page. Is this one of the symptoms of carbon build up or is it related to the PCV valve or cam followers or something else entirely? Thanks again in advance.

[Tanner]

Based on my experience, when the intake valves are in bad condition, you'll feel the engine stumble on a cold start. Drive off slowly, and the stumbling will continue. Once the engine warms up, the stumbling will lessen but it'll still occur, but just not as frequently, as shown below when I was tracking the misfires on each cylinder before I got the intake valves cleaned.

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4134/4767384145_4c02909049_z.jpg

Cam issue - that's a different beast. If you're full throttle and the engine stumbles at high RPM, it's a good indicator that there's a problem with the HPFP, which could then indicate that the cam follower has completely worn through. It does seem that people that are chipped will run into this issue sooner than others that aren't chip, obviously because of the higher demand on fueling.

As for the pulse, if you're talking about that noticeable tick, that's the high pressure fuel injector.

Clutch - if it catches up really high, clutch is probably on it's last leg. It'll start to slip if you accelerate hard in 5th or 6th gear on the highway, otherwise if it isn't no need to worry about it until it happens.

[wackogracko]

Yes, its definitely the "noticeable tick" you are referring to. So when you say "thats the high pressure fuel injector", does that mean its operating normally that way or is there something going wrong/bad with the HPFI? Thanks.

[Tanner]

Yes the ticking is the high pressure fuel injectors, see the below video from APR:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hg1lhTlSZwE

Of course there are other ticks that the engine makes :)

[a4b7qtro]

20,000 miles on my '08 A4. No issues yet. but I try to do track days 2-3 times a year. The tail pipes are coated w/ black at the end of these...... I think drive hard and hot occasionally seems to be the answer. My daily driving is less than 10 miles and barely gets the car warmed up.

[buellwinkle]

My 2008 A4 3.2 is reaching high miles, 13.5K and it got it's first check engine light (P303 and P305) and yes, I drive the piss out of it, mostly long drive, but infrequently, for example, I'll drive it 75-85 miles one way, but may not drive the car or a few weeks in between and mostly 80mph (typical CA freeway driving). We'll see what they do. I could have reset the code, but I want it on file that they did because the warranty is up soon, and they would have to own up to it if they didn't fix the problem on the initial visit. I'm thinking of getting the Audi extended warranty. Would this be covered or are they calling it maintenance, because to me, to call it maintenance, it would have to be described in the maintenance manual, no?

[Tanner]

Cleaning the valves I believe is covered under CPO as I recall reading RS4 guys getting it done under CPO. Definitely leave the code there and don't reset it.

[buellwinkle]

The dealer clarified that if there's carbon build up on a car with high miles, for example 80k-100K miles, that may be considered normal build up and that would not be covered (not that the warranty goes that far). But I said my car has 13K miles, if I was on the extended Audi warranty would that be covered if it causes misfire codes, he said yes. I checked on costs and he said about $1,200 to take the intake off and scrape the valves and $300 of that is parts like gaskets. To do a the BG treatment that some mentioned is $276.

[Tanner]

At that mileage, i'd just get it cleaned vs trying the BG treatment. The treatment IMO is good if the valves are relatively clean, more as preventative, but when there's enough buildup to cause misfires, a good scrubbing is required.

[Kai@EliteMS]

We've done many 3.2 carbon cleanings, unfortunately it's there. Here are some pics. The 4.2 FSI has been very popular with this service but essentially all direct injected motors suffer from it.

This link will take you to our Facebook page and goto a album there regarding the RS4's includes some before and after shots.
http://www.facebook.com/#!/media/set/?set=a.10150208507658534.330272.191449448533&type=3

These are some 3.2's

http://sphotos.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-snc7/s720x720/385106_10150453279798534_191449448533_8680269_2062 140421_n.jpg
http://a8.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/s720x720/404189_10150563064003534_191449448533_9073523_4162 05826_n.jpg
http://a1.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc7/s720x720/389430_10150449180038534_191449448533_8669342_1492 838846_n.jpg

[Pasquallies]

This is why I always put 93 octane in and add a carb/injector cleaner to every 3rd fill up on my B7 3.2

[Brooks2]

I bought my 2008 B7 3.2 new in Pennsylvania. While I lived there, my commute was short and slow (PA slow, really slow). I developed the miss fire problem. I read about it in Audizine and tried the flat out accelleration cure. Initially, this caused a cloud of smoke for the exhausts. More spirited driving meant no more smoke and no more missfires.

Last summer I moved back to California. I drove from Massachusetts to California. Much of the time was spent at engine speeds over 3,000 rpm. In the West, this meant driving 400+ miles between gas stops at relatively high rpm. Back in Cali, I have been doing a lot of driving on 101 between San Luis Obispo and San Jose (posted speed limits are 65 to 70 most of the way). The car passed CA Emmisions with no problem at 77k.

The problem occured with my 3.2 B7 when I was driving short distances in congestion in PA. I have not had the problem with most of my driving at California highway speeds. This is my experience (it may not be typical.)

[mr larry]

For anyone who is wondering what Audi has already and/or may be working on to incorporate into our engines to help alleviate this problem, feel free to read their patent for it. It's a little tough to read but makes it pretty clear, to me at least, that nothing short of incorporating additional injectors pre-intake to wash the valves with fuel is going to work since the timing overlap and blow-by recirculation system isn't going away.

http://www.google.com/patents?id=fLITAAAAEBAJ&printsec=abstract&zoom=4&dq=valve+coating+carbon+VW#v=onepage&q&f=false


This thread also has a promising solution to the buildup by bypassing the PCV system and dumping it into the exhaust (instead of a catch can), but that's only realistically going to work for someone that lives in a state without emission testing.

http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?4387972-Bypassing-PCV-and-routing-to-exhaust-description-(DIY)-(long)&highlight=bypass

[Tanner]

There's an engine from Toyota already that incorporates both direct and indirect injection plus it's included in the 2.0L boxer engine in the BRZ/FR-S which I'm currently looking at. Audi's only finally coming around to this with their recent 1.8T in Europe and it'll trickle down eventually to all of their FSI engines.

That patent of coating the backside of the intake valves, not sure how effective it is especially if Audi is now doing indirect injection. I honestly don't think it really worked well in the real world if they are using it in their FSI engines. Cattch cans do help but it won't resolve the issue 100% due to valve overlap.

[Simply Juiced]

I have a b7 a4 3.2Q At with 115k miles on it and I am currently the second owner and the car-facts showed soooo many Audi services but none for injection cleaning should I be worried about cleaning out my valves because I get some hesitation going up the merge ramp onto the highway at 4k RPM's occasionally. Also the CEL is on showing and the code shows something within the intake shut closed.

[West.point1]

I had my 08 done at 102k km which is 63k miles and mine was disgusting inside ! Drove great for couple weeks after now just feels the same but it is still really peppy good throttle response improvement. It's not cheap to have it done right. But it's an audi so do it right !

[vtwinjunkie]

08 a4 2.0T here....63k miles on it and I have never had the carbon buildup issue....Is this primarily a 3.2 issue or are there just as many 2.0T's with the problem? If so....what mileage?

[Roaldtm]

My experience with the FSI engines started with my MKV VW GTI. When I got my GTI it had 111,000 miles, needless to say I had to do the timing belt service right away. After owning the GTI for a few months I began to have the P0101 code when the car was cold. A few visits to the shop and tinkering with it made us look into the carbon deposit issue. The build up was really nasty but after that was done and over with the car it was a complete beast (at the time it was APR stage 2+). After owning the GTI for almost 3 years with no issues and I guess having a mid life crisis I decided that I wanted an Audi.

3 months ago I finally got my A4 Quattro Sline, knowing and loving the 2.0 FSI engine in my GTI it was a no brainier for me to get the Audi(here's where everything went downhill). I got the car with 70,300 miles and while I was test driving it I connected it to my reader and I was able to pull a P0303 code. Thinking the usual: Coil Packs, Spark Plugs, Injectors etc I went ahead and purchased the car from the Ford dealership where they couldn't be happier with getting rid of the Audi. Got in the car thinking that I outsmarted the dealer and that I had already the R8 coil packs at home from the GTI the first thing I did when I got the car was the plugs and coils. With this the car was running smoother and I was a happy guy with my low mileage almost new Audi. Two weeks after that the P0303 code came back... having the extended warranty on the car(for which I paid $3,700) I drove the car to the nearest Audi dealership which is 1 hour 20 minutes away. The dealership said that most likely was an injector so they replaced 1 injector for almost $600 which is messed up because the 4 injectors set are like $430 on any website. Anyway 4 days without a car and I'm back home thinking that everything is good to go, but no! a week after getting the car the P0303 came right back, I called the dealer and asked if they saw any sludge or deposits when they removed the injectors and they said no.

I didn't have time to be without a car and the car was running perfectly fine every time I cleared the CEL so I lasted like that for a month. Last week the car started leaking something(power steering fluid from my AWE aftermarket cooler which came with the inter cooler kit) so I decided to take the car to the dealership again and get both issues fixed. Now I was just told by the guy at the dealership that since the power steering cooler is aftermarket the extended warranty will not cover it(FML but hey I didn't buy the inter cooler so I really don't know how long it had been there) and that after checking the compression, cylinder #3 is not good so they will have to replace either the Cylinder Head (sticking valve) or the whole engine (scorched piston or cylinder wall). This is my experience with the outstanding 2.0 T FSI made by the VAG in both of my VAG cars.

[Audibot]

08 a4 2.0T here....63k miles on it and I have never had the carbon buildup issue....Is this primarily a 3.2 issue or are there just as many 2.0T's with the problem? If so....what mileage?

It's a problem with all direct injection engines that don't have any kind of port injection (i.e., all the 2.0Ts, 3.2s, 4.2 FSI). The naturally aspirated ones have a bigger problem than the forced induction ones, probably because it doesn't get as hot.

I had my 2.0T done at 120k, and OMG did it wake up!

So you probably do have a buildup but not enough to cause codes. I never had any problems unless I went WOT, at which point the CEL would start blinking. Even the guys who built up their engine with W/M injection have buildup issues.

[vtwinjunkie]

I hope I can make it to 120k before having to do it!




It's a problem with all direct injection engines that don't have any kind of port injection (i.e., all the 2.0Ts, 3.2s, 4.2 FSI). The naturally aspirated ones have a bigger problem than the forced induction ones, probably because it doesn't get as hot.

I had my 2.0T done at 120k, and OMG did it wake up!

So you probably do have a buildup but not enough to cause codes. I never had any problems unless I went WOT, at which point the CEL would start blinking. Even the guys who built up their engine with W/M injection have buildup issues.

[TheBlueMartin]

So there is a new oil vapor separator for the older 3.2's that should help reduce the carbon issues we have. Wish I would have seen this before I got mine all back together:

http://www.hengst.de/conpresso/_data/1-V-Raum_Audi_AS354M_High_Performance_Technology.pdf

http://www.ecstuning.com/Audi-C6_A6-Quattro-V6_3.2L/Engine/Emissions/PCV/

The visual difference is the plastic housing of the new part compared to the aluminum housing of the old one.

[jayulzvern]

^ how does this help with buildup? Isn't the problem that there is no fuel/ solvent going past the intake valves? Is there a way to pump some intake cleaner in with the intake air to break up some of the buildup?

[Audibot]

^ how does this help with buildup? Isn't the problem that there is no fuel/ solvent going past the intake valves? Is there a way to pump some intake cleaner in with the intake air to break up some of the buildup?

While this is true, the oil vapor separator would PREVENT (or at least reduce) the oil vapor from reaching the valves, thus reducing carbon buildup. Fuel/solvent over the valves during operation would just help rinse off what is deposited, but since that's not an option (without much modification) on these cars, this would be a more feasible solution.

[TheBlueMartin]

^ how does this help with buildup? Isn't the problem that there is no fuel/ solvent going past the intake valves? Is there a way to pump some intake cleaner in with the intake air to break up some of the buildup?

Where did you think the carbon building up on the valves is coming from?

[West.point1]

Have any of you fellow 3.2ers had problems with your hpfp and can follower?
My 08 3.2 is throwing two codes right now
P0346 - camshaft position sensor
P0087 - fuel rail / system pressure too low

[TheBlueMartin]

Why don't you start a thread somewhere to bring up this HPFP issue? You're not going to get much feedback on the thread that is talking about carbon buildup.

[jimrobbington]

Have any of you fellow 3.2ers had problems with your hpfp and can follower?
My 08 3.2 is throwing two codes right now
P0346 - camshaft position sensor
P0087 - fuel rail / system pressure too low
Short answer, yes. There's even some recalls for it. Search.

[West.point1]

I've tried and dealerships even say there is nothing for my car either...

[jimrobbington]

I've tried and dealerships even say there is nothing for my car either...
That's right. I think the recalls Wes only for years before 08, and for some reason, 08 got left out, even though it still has the same hardware.

[West.point1]

^^ exactly my point !

[steveakatheman]

I have a 07 b7 3.2, has about 125k now. Hasn't thrown any codes yet, should I worry about carbon build up?

[crazyquik22023]

I have a 07 b7 3.2, has about 125k now. Hasn't thrown any codes yet, should I worry about carbon build up?

If you take mostly long trips and use high octane gas there will be less chance of carbon build up. If you take short trips and use lower octane gas the chance is greater. If you start getting misfiring codes its time for a cleaning.

[TheBlueMartin]

If you take mostly long trips and use high octane gas there will be less chance of carbon build up. If you take short trips and use lower octane gas the chance is greater. If you start getting misfiring codes its time for a cleaning.

That's not true at all, I haven't seen a car with over 100k on it without carbon buildup. I commute 35 or more miles each way (mostly highway), take long road trips, and only use premium gas (mostly Costco). I also run 5w40 Castrol Syntec in the summer and 0w40 Mobil1 in the winter. And my valves at 192,000 miles on the ODO:

https://fbcdn-sphotos-e-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xpf1/t31.0-8/10918986_10153004187785948_238644091564171459_o.jp g
https://fbcdn-sphotos-c-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xpf1/t31.0-8/10486280_10153004197275948_6540760966709531650_o.j pg

[oVeRdOsE]

That's not true at all, I haven't seen a car with over 100k on it without carbon buildup. I commute 35 or more miles each way (mostly highway), take long road trips, and only use premium gas (mostly Costco). I also run 5w40 Castrol Syntec in the summer and 0w40 Mobil1 in the summer. And my valves at 192,000 miles on the ODO:


+ 1, octane level has nothing to do with carbon build up.

Even less for direct injection engines.

Octane level is a carbon chain in the fuel that change the flash point. On high octane level, The air/fuel mixture will need more heat to ignite.

If you have dirt build up because of octane, is because you have old car and the ECU can't adjust, then you have pre-detonation, and the air/fuel calculation is bad and you running extra rich on non-direct injection engine. Having all those situation combine, then octane MIGHT influence the engine cleanliness.

[vwjetta1.8t]

I've been getting really poor mileage lately. Would this be an indication that I have carbon build up?

[shahk62]

https://instagram.com/p/BE4BjiLQBR5/


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Okedokey]

Its really not that hard to clean yourself

[esandes]

It would be great to have a new car, but it seems like all the new cars that I like have direct injection.

exactly. same here. i'd rather have the old fashioned fuel injection.

i thought audi was supposed to be introducing the hybrid fuel/direct injection system. that would help to sweep the intake ports and valves.

[veeray]

Just a question, do the exhaust valves also need to be cleaned? I walnut blasted my intake valves, they were REALLY bad (210k kms), and it took away some issues, outlined in my other thread. Next step is to try and walnut blast the exhaust valves, and someone mentioned they could have been burnt too...

EDIT; Link to my thread

http://www.audizine.com/forum/showthread.php/717682-p0301-Rough-idle-ONLY-when-started-up?highlight=p0301

[Okedokey]

Interesting, thats a good question.

[b7_Andy]

Just a question, do the exhaust valves also need to be cleaned? I walnut blasted my intake valves, they were REALLY bad (210k kms), and it took away some issues, outlined in my other thread. Next step is to try and walnut blast the exhaust valves, and someone mentioned they could have been burnt too...

EDIT; Link to my thread

http://www.audizine.com/forum/showthread.php/717682-p0301-Rough-idle-ONLY-when-started-up?highlight=p0301

The only way to fully remove the exhaust manifold in a 3.2 is to pull the motor. I'm curious if the exhaust valves get buildup, I don't think they would but maybe it's possible.

[veeray]

The only way to fully remove the exhaust manifold in a 3.2 is to pull the motor. I'm curious if the exhaust valves get buildup, I don't think they would but maybe it's possible.

Luckily it's a 2.0t... Im gonna see what I can do over the weekend, I will update my original thread.

[b7_Andy]

Luckily it's a 2.0t... Im gonna see what I can do over the weekend, I will update my original thread.

Ah gotcha, ya I'm interested to see if the exhaust valves have carbon buildup

[veeray]

Before I started to pull the turbo and manifold off. I figured it would be best to do a leakdown test.

But im even more puzzled lol

When 1st cylinder is on tdc, i can hear air coming out of the oil dipstick hole. I move it a little to the right, and air starts coming from the 2nd spark plug hole. Keep moving it and its really hard to work against the air pressure, so im very puzzled.

Did the same thing on 2nd cylinder, got the same result and the 2nd cylinder has no misfires... i dont know whats going on.

[veeray]

New developments in original thread, if you guys could drop some knowledge as to why that is, I would appreciate it greatly. From now, I am going to post there, as this is taken a weird turn aaway from the carbon cleaning. Thanks

http://www.audizine.com/forum/showthread.php/717682-p0301-Rough-idle-ONLY-when-started-up?p=11802799

[Audi Junkie]

I have a 2010 Q5 and just got the CEL for secondary air now at 60k. I'm guessing the dealer is going to sell me on a valve cleaning too, in addition to the "covered" SA cleaning.

I never had an issue before, as I do an intake cleaning every Spring, now with the new CRC GDI spray. I suggest taking a look.... http://crcindustries.com/auto/intake-valve-cleaner.php

Made for DI, has 150x the PEA in Techron. Yes it clean the exhaust valves, as the spray process creates an excessively rich engine condition.

The thing is, I don't want to pay the dealer for a BG type cleaning, well not more than $200 let's say. What's involved in a physical cleaning, or what's the process known as....? Just "decarb" doesn't mean much unless it's physical, not chemical. No way I'm paying $600 for that.

I'll check back later.

[Audi Junkie]

Also, I going to rethink letting my wife run 93, as it'll burn more slowly than the 91 which is what the engine is tuned for, specifically the valve timing. I think 93 could cause deposits. Running higher octane is notorious in power equipment for this exact thing....deposits.

[Kingprime]

I've just picked up an 07 3.2 a4 avant 3 weeks ago and my cel started flashing the second day I had the car. My ESP light also came on at the same time. I was on the highway and the car was shuddering and there was reduced power on acceleration. Brought it to the dealership and they changed the fuel injector in cylinder 2. Car ran ok until today. 1500k later and the same problem. I was backing into my driveway when I felt the car start shuddering (misfire?). The esp light came on then the CEL started flashing. Are these the same symptoms that you guys with carbon issues experiencing? Hooked the car up to an OBD2 and getting codes p0202 and p0302.


did you get this sorted out? do you remember what all was wrong and what needed to be fixed? i think ill start with the ignition coil packs and go from there but im experiencing the same issue. thanks for any and all info