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thumper_
10-16-2009, 12:14 PM
(Cross posted from Bimmerfest because that's where I "hang out" at the moment. I'm cross-shopping the 335i and S4 to replace my E46 330i and thought these comments might be useful and/or interesting to Audi fans. I also wanted the input of the Audi S4 community as I continue to make a decision)

First a little background. As you may or may not know, I'm shopping for a new car. I have narrowed it down a while back to the 335i, a Mercedes Benz C-350 or an Audi S4. All of them are roughly in the same price range, but there's quite a "power gap" between the least and most powerful. Of course, the 335i slots neatly into the middle of this trifecta. I have driven the MB and the 335i, but the 335i was not equipped the way I wanted it; no iDrive, automatic transmission and so on so the comparison may not be totally fair. Yet. The MB I pretty much eliminated immediately because it didn't feel like a $50K car. In fact, the interior of the MB felt like a Camry to me, despite some nice touches. It drove nice, but it definitely wasn't me. It's also not available with a stick... and though for the right car I'd drive an auto happily (the 335d springs to mind), in the Mercedes I just felt it was at odds with the car's mission and mine.

OK, so last weekend I decided to go out and test drive an Audi S4. I have looked at the specs, and it is a damned impressive car on-paper. The Audi is of course a gorgeous car, and while I DO like the current 3-series since the sedan facelift (I'm looking at sedans, by the way) I still sometimes look at them on the street and feel that they're a little overstyled. I still love the look of my E46 330i; I think the look of the E36 and E46's were timeless and beautiful... the E9x? Hmm... well, I DO like it, but not the way I like my 330 :) I also find the styling of the Audi S4 to be minimalist and beautiful... smooth without being bland. The LED's on the lights I can take or leave, but there's no denying that it is striking. BMW's stylists could learn a thing or two from Audi here, if nowhere else.

Anyway, I took a few hours out of my day, and the sales guy at Bommarito Audi in Ballwin, MO handed me the keys and told me to enjoy. I don't know if it's my age (I'm 36) or something, but it's been a long time from I've had a sales guy ride with me on a test drive. I don't like it, because more often than not I'm alone in a car. For comparison purposes though I should note that I did have one 115lb passenger for this test drive. The car in question is a 2010 Audi S4 Prestige (pretty much loaded) with a 6 speed manual transmission and the complete Audi Drive Select system... so this means the adjustable suspension and the much-vaunted electronic rear differential.

Now, the first thing you see on stepping into the Audi is of course the interior. Quite frankly; it's gorgeous. This one had the black silk nappa leather which is oozes quality from the moment you slip into the seats. The seats themselves are really supportive, especially around the shoulders (where I think the 3-series sports seats lack a little), but side bolstering is not nearly as pronounced. This might be good for bigger drivers... me, my 170lb frame felt a little "loose" around the waist after being used to being "hugged" by my E46 seats when I drive, but the shoulder support felt nice.

The car in question had the Audi equivalent of "ComfortAccess", so all I had to do was sit down with the key in my pocket and hit the start button. This doesn't have any "wow" value to me because my 18 month old Kawasaki Concours 14 has the same thing, but it's still nice. It DOES have its problems though because of transponder battery life, or loss of a transponder... I once lost one of my transponders out of my riding jacket pocket and never did find it again... but these kinds of losses are no worse than a loss of keys except perhaps replacement cost! Also, the fact that you're in a car somewhat mitigates this problem. I think a system like this makes sense for cars, but I'm still not totally sold on it beyond the "cool factor" for motorbikes.

Anyway, I digress. I hit the start button and at first nothing happened. Then it occurred to me to push the clutch all the way to the carpet and try again. Voila... she started right up. OK... into neutral and release the clutch... lovely. So the car's running... but wow it's quiet. I remember driving a much older S4 with the last gen V8, and it had a lovely burble when sitting at idle that is just... missing. The exhaust note also doesn't seem as deep as the 335i when I fired that up, and certainly not a patch on my 330i that has one of the best exhaust sounds I've ever heard. Well, this is a bit different for me, but not unpleasant. With the doors closed, I find myself enclosed in a very quiet but beautifully laid out cabin. The center console strikes me most... loads of buttons and a rotary controller for the Nav/MMI system. At first it seems a little information overload, but as I settle in and play with the buttons and move around screens I find it quite simple. The first thing that strikes me though is the rotary controller. Being an iPod user for years, I'm used to a clockwise turn to scroll down... this requires a counter-clockwise turn for the same. I'm all for different, but this could take a bit of getting used to. Does the iDrive do this? Dunno... not used that... yet.

I'm not going to bore with the details of the first 15 minutes I spent sitting there familiarising myself with the car, but I will say there was a lot to like, here. The nav screen was clear, simple and well laid out... the Bang and Olufssen sound system was just awesome (and light years better than the stock sound system in the 335i... still haven't heard the Logic7 yet), and I loved the rotary sunroof control. In general at a standstill the entire car was perfectly laid out... so then I got to drive.

Settling into the seat positioned how I wanted it, the first thing I noted was the backup camera when I went into reverse. Nice. The next thing I noticed was how long the travel on the clutch was. I almost had to bury my left foot in the carpet to get the thing disengaged, and only half and inch (or so it felt) above the carpet was the "bite point"... and then there was only minimal travel to fully engaged. As a result, my first few shifts were extremely hard. Next up... well, that shifter is a LONG way forward, and has a long throw... and feels sort of rubbery. Not sure I'm too impressed. I'm used to an easy to modulate clutch and a shifter that my arm naturally falls onto when I'm driving... not to mention just falls into each gear with a light push with only two fingers guiding it. This feels stiff... might be because it's new but those long throws alone are a bit disconcerting. I don't miss a shift, but sometimes I feel like I have to grip the shifter and pull or push it with my entire hand instead of my fingers... so fine control appears to be lacking.

So I pull out onto Manchester road and head off to the East. I have an idea of where I want to take the car; a few twisty roads and turns, some easy highway... a bit of everything on a nice test circuit.

So, ADS (Audi Drive Select) in Comfort for the cruise down Manchester... and I'm in a Mercedes. You can feel it. The steering is light and easy, but there's almost no feedback. It's definitely comfortable and easy... I can see myself driving this on the highway on those days when I wake up and decide I just don't feel like a sporty ride. The only thing that destroys this somewhat is the shifter, which is definitely intended to be on the stiff and sporty side rather than the comfortable. Well, that's not adjustable by ADS ;) This adjustable suspension is truly awesome. Acceleration is easy and the car does seem unflappable. It's not comfortable in the sense of "1990 Buick" comfy, but definitely right there with the C-350 I drove (sport, not luxury). So then I turn South down New Ballwin Road. This is a mostly residential street with stop signs... I wanted to get a handle on stop and go driving, so this seemed like a good mix. Put the ADS in "Auto" and I can feel a subtle difference in the steering as it firms up, and the throttle response becomes a little better. Nothing perceptible on the suspension, yet but I'm also not pushing the car. As a I accelerate up that hill on New Ballwin Road I can feel there's a rear bias to the AWD... it makes a difference in feel as I accelerate. However, the car still doesn't feel FAST... it feels... zippy.

So I stop at a stop sign and try a few standing starts... partly to get a feel for the acceleration and partly because I want to get used to this clutch and shifter. The car definitely accelerates with gusto... but it just doesn't feel as powerful as the 335i even though on paper it has an extra 10% on the 335i. I attribute part of this to the AWD, and presume that the 335xi would be a similar amount of loss through the drivetrain... and also the extra weight of that system. I am still struck by how far I feel I have to push the clutch from fully up to disengaged... it feels far too long for truly sporty driving, but I also feel myself getting used to the short bite to fully engaged. I know it's just a matter of what I'm used to, and this is still much better than most clutch/shifter combinations. I could get used to this...

I switch the ADS into dynamic, and almost immediately I can feel the suspension firm up as well as the steering become MUCH heavier and more like my Bimmer. I turn onto Kiefer Creek Road to try some twisty-road driving. For those that don't know, there are some light twists at the start of the road coming from New Ballwin Road... and some hard turns later. So with no-one around, I throw it hard into the turn at the stop under power (there's a stop with a yield to turn right... hey, I yielded... sort of...) Under power, the back end kicks out a bit like you'd expect from a rear wheel drive car, but the electronic nannies quickly reign that in and the car tracks cleanly through the turn with nary a hint of body roll. Nice... I can definitely get used to this. I could also feel the electronic diff guiding the back end around the corner... like all wheel steering almost. Very slick.

So far, very impressed. I swear when I switched to Dynamic ADS the car lost about a foot in length... the car feels much smaller all of a sudden... more like the car I want to drive. There's still that shifter and clutch, though... still not sold on that...

So now I turn on the heated seats. Oooh... geeky! Press the button and the level setting window slides out of the side of the nav screen... 6 levels of heated seat. Oh hell... all the way up. Toasty :D Takes a while to warm up, but is very nice on this chilly Saturday. I've also found that navigating around the MMI has become a lot easier without taking my eyes off the road, and I definitely like the rotary volume control on the steering wheel. That's nice and far better responsiveness than a pair of volume buttons.

So I get to the tighter corners on Kiefer Creek Road, and thankfully there are no other drivers around. I turn off the traction control (REALLY off... held in the button) and took it into the corner under power in second gear. Even without the electronic nannies, I can REALLY feel that electronic diff now. The back end kicks out a little but it feels like it would take harder cornering than I'm comfortable with in a new car that's not mine to really make it lose composure. Quickly, the rears regain traction and I can feel the back end being pulled gently back into line even as I switch direction quickly and hard. Feedback through the steering wheel is very good... I can't feel every groove the way I do through the wheel of my 330i, but it's pretty damned good for such a large sedan. As I pull the car back straight, I know there's a grin on my face... this is quite addictive.

Out onto Route 100, and head West. The ADS back in Auto and I feel there's a nice balance there for just daily driving duties. I already know the car can play... now I want it to feel like it would if I were driving it every day. Under throttle, the engine does get loud and playful sounding... it feels a little tinny, but I attribute that to the fact that it's a V6 with a supercharger instead of the last generation V8 that ROARED under throttle. I'm still finding my shifts a little harsher than I'd like because of the quick uptake of the clutch... it just doesn't feel PROGRESSIVE enough compared to my E46... but yes, I can get used to it.

Running at 60mph, the car is a great highway car. It is quite predictable, and tracks easily on the road. With ADS in Auto it seems to be just a really nice premium sedan with an easy character that's also easy to live with. OK, time to take it for a bit more play.

ADS in Dynamic, out onto State Highway T for some acceleration runs. Again, no-one around... and wow. This car gets up and goes and is doing 75mph before you can blink. 75-100 seems to come up incredibly quickly, and I easy back off, and just enjoy cruising down T for a bit. There are some nice, sweeping turns which I take at decently high speed and the car just laps it up... at least at one point acting as though to say "Is that really all you've got?". Finally turn in at St. Albans golf course to stop in the car park and give the car the walkaround I would've given it earlier, except that I don't like hovering salesdroids.

The hood popped, man that engine looks SMALL. OK, I'm used to the 330i's inline six, which for a small car just looks ridiculoulsly massive under the hood. It's obvious comparing the S4's engine to mine how much more compact the V6 packaging actually is, and it's nice. The plugs are right there on top and easy to reach, as are all the fluid bottles. And hey, what's this? Looks like a dipstick... but it's not. However, it DOES look like a plastic cover over a dipstick tube... could it be that I can actually buy a dipstick and check my oil the old fashioned way while I put gas in my car? I can't find any definitive information on this... the jury's still out...

The engine's also a long way forward... though I have to be honest that I'd probably have to go far beyond my own personal driving skill levels before that weight out front would really make a significant impact. I drove the car so far the way I drive my 330i, and I'm comfortable that the weight distribution and traction are a decent enough match for my own skills and abilities. Would a professional driver feel that engine hanging out there in front of the front wheels? Oh yes, almost certainly... but I am not a professional driver and rarely track my cars. For my self-assessed intermediate driving level, it's good enough.

The lines of the car look just as good close up as they do from a distance. Fit and finish is just beautiful, and nothing looks out of place. I jump into the back seat behind the drivers seat and am completely blown away with the space, and the comfort of those back seats. True, they wouldn't get used most of the time with me, but I use back seats often enough that space and comfort back there DO make a difference. I'm 5'10", and I feel quite comfortble in there.

The trunk... wow. Even equipped with a spare (no run-flats here!) the trunk is absolutely ridiculously huge. It's also well equipped with tie-downs and cargo nets. BMW could certainly learn a thing or two, here; the lack of a spare tire in the recent 3-series has been a constant source of contention with the enthusiast; BMW saying run-flats are the future but enthusiasts less than convinced. I'm on the fence; in 20 years (or thereabouts) of driving, I've had a TOTAL of four critical punctures that caused loss of pressure while driving. Even then, the last of those was almost a decade ago... I guess I just don't drive much in places where I could pick up something that'd shred a tire. This is a discussion for another day...

So I look in every nook and cranny, and find much to like in the S4: The cup holders are FAR better than the 3-series (whose cup holders feel like an afterthought)... and though I don't drink or eat often in my car, I do like my coffee on a morning commute. The SD card slots for music for the MMI... genius! I love it. I could see myself using that more and more especially as my aging 5G iPod Video starts to fail... 99% of the time I only use it in my car anyway. Being able to throw music onto 4 or 8GB SD cards and then just throw them into my car seems like it just makes sense. Comments have been made that the MMI screen is smaller than iDrive. Not having driven an iDrive car, yet I have to say that I can't comment... except that the MMI screen is small enough that it doesn't distract or detract while driving. Also, when you DO refer to it, it's clear, clean and well laid out. The interface seems like it was designed by Apple with a touch of KDE 4 (yes, I do Windows for work, Apple at home and Linux for an hobby!) I like it... it's simple, it's effective and it's intuitive. Still, the counter-clockwise-roll for down throws me a bit... but it's cool.

I close her back up again, open the windows and roof and we head back onto Highway T to take the S4 back to the dealership. I notice that even after shutting off the engine, the car remembers my heated seat setting... that's slick! Of course, I don't even HAVE heated seats in my E46, though I used to have them in some of my older cars and do miss them on those winter mornings! The exhaust sound is OK... it doesn't have the depth of my E46... of course, the 335i doesn't, either. When I buy a new car, I'll probably miss that most of all. With the windows open under throttle the engine can sound like it wants to play, but it's definitely no V8. I'd compare it (favourably) to the note of the Pontiac Grand Prix GTP I owned 8 years ago... also a supercharged V6. I loved that car despite its flaws, and it's still the only new car I have ever bought. I would probably still own it had my (now ex) wife not hated that car so much. No, she's not an ex because she hated the car :P

I get the car back to the dealership and even as the sales guy tries to get my to make a deal today, I look at the car and think. I point out to him that despite being equipped almost exactly as I personally would equip it, I would be ordering it in Sprint Blue. What can I say? I want a blue car. The one I drove is white, and though it looks nice in white it's not as "wow" as the 3-series in white. Yeah, white is white... but BMW has always had cars that look awesome in white... not sure why exactly... but they add a depth to the colour that no-one else quite manages. The Audi looks good, but if I spend close to $60K on a car I am going to get a car I want with no compromises. Besides, I still want to do the European Delivery. So I leave the dealership with a brochure and a quick conversation with the sales guy... who really (unlike the sales guy at the BMW dealership I went to) actually converses with me like one car guy to another. He seems to really love cars, and love Audi in particular... but he never tries to bad-mouth BMW. I like that. So +1 for the sales experience at the dealership, too. BMW had an epic fail on that one, but I'm going to try a different dealer when I drive a stick 335i.

So as I drive away, my passenger and I talk. She had been with me in my test drive of the 335i and the Mercedes as well... so her opinion mattered, too. She commented that the fit and finish of the interior was easily the best in the Audi... and the interior styling was just beautiful. Since that's where one spends all your time in the car, it's the part you see most... the interior is far more important to long-term happiness with the car than some might think. The BMW's interior was second... and though it was good it just didn't seem like a decade of evolution over my E46... in fact in many ways it was extremely similar, and the radio display just screamed out "1999". No, it wasn't broken... just seemed... old. Of course, I'll reserve judgment on that until I drive a Bimmer with iDrive.

She made one comment that struck me as extremely true: "When you drove the Mercedes, it seemed to just be there. The BMW seemed to excite you, to tingle your nerves every time you hit the gas pedal. The Audi seemed to ENGROSS you, and you seemed like you were more involved with it." This was true... again part of that could have been the big engine with the stick... that is easier to get more involved with the entire process of driving instead of being along for the ride and merely directing the car.

Overall, both cars I'm seriously considering (335i and Audi S4) are VERY similar cars on paper but are quite different when driven. The Audi wasn't as "explosive" as the 335i when you went to accelerate and seemed to make less fanfare about the acceleration. That's not a slam on the 335i... it just FEELS faster and more powerful than the Audi. However, the Audi just seems to acclerate effortlessly to super-legal speeds. I'd say that if you grade your cars according to the "butt dyno" then you're going to go for the 335i simply because it feels like it's leaping up to speed, whereas the Audi "whooshes". The numbers on paper put acceleration as almost identical between the two cars, and I have to say that I agree with it... but it's how it gets there that makes the difference. With the ADS in Dynamic (which I consider to be the fairest comparison with the sport-package equipped 335) there's really not much in it; the steering is a tad more numb in the Audi than the Bimmer, even at full dynamic setting... but in truth the only time that'll become a problem is at the track. The 335i is definitely the more "trackable" car, while the Audi is definitely more "roadable".

The S4 also has the advantage that it has some features that just aren't available on the 335i like the ADS. That changes the game quite a bit because it can mean effectively owning distinct cars with distinctive personalities and being able to switch at will. In Comfort ADS mode, it becomes a long-legged GT that feels like it could drive for hours without making you tired. I don't often do it, but I can see myself appreciating that mode a lot on the occasion (annually, recently) when I drive to Chicago up I-55. I enjoy that drive in my 330i as well, but it DOES get wearing around Springfield... and that's not even half way!

Controls in general in the Audi are well laid out and simple to understand. There wasn't a moment (once I'd familiarised myself with their location) that I wondered how to do something, or "What does that button do?" Sometimes in the Bimmer they can be a little opaque and sometimes fiddly, but again it's a matter of experience and time in the car. I think in general the difference in philosophy on the interior can be summarised as "BMW are focused on the driver, Audi are focused on the occupant." While the two are one and the same most of the time, the Audi feels more like it welcomes everyone into the car... to a passenger the BMW can be somewhat stark and obtuse.

So is it a slam dunk for either car? No. If I were to make a decision today, based upon driving both cars I would actually elect to wait and just drive my 330i through the winter and make a decision next year. If I HAD to buy one of these two cars (say my 330i was gone)... again I think I'd need more time in both cars to make a decision. The Bimmer is all the car I've ever wanted, and feels like an evolution on a car I already love (my E46)... and all of that's a good thing. But the Audi is more than one car, each with its own distinct personality... at least with ADS (which the more I think about it, the more I think it's vital because that differential alone adds so much personality to the car). It's not the hard-edged sports car you get with the Bimmer, but it comes REALLY damned close... so close that I think only a professional driver or someone who tracks his car monthly would notice the difference. I barely noticed it, and I was looking for it! However, the Bimmer can't come close to the level of refinement and comfort you can get when you switch the ADS into Comfort mode. It means that no matter the mission of the day, the Audi can do it... I know that in the time I've owned my E46 there have been mornings when I just want to be coddled in my car and find the sporty ride obnoxious on Highway 40... granted they're the exception rather than the rule, but in my Bimmer I don't have a choice... in the Audi I do.

For anyone else trying to make the same decision I am, I hope this all helps.

Calabria
10-16-2009, 12:44 PM
Long indeed, with all that talk about the S4 being to great on the test drive...the opinion ends with neither? Youll get all the Audi peoples hopes up, but that conclusion is a real downgrade.

L0U
10-16-2009, 12:50 PM
Should go for a rip in the s-tronic version. Let you focus on the car vs. the shifting with an unfamiliar clutch/shifter.

The turbo builds boost and the feel factor is a bit of a rush. The charger has no lull, just flat torque, so it feels eletric.

The way you describe bmw white, is the same as many describe ibis white. Funny that we both like the white on different cars.

Pr0n
10-16-2009, 12:58 PM
That conclusion makes me feel like I got Bel-Air'd. [:/]

aaron1085
10-16-2009, 01:00 PM
I enjoyed the story, a bit in depth, but thats what a review is. I too enjoy the styling of the MB, though have yet to sit in one, I have looked in a few windows and the interior does not impress me. The flip up navigation sand the bland styling looks .... BLAH.

The BMW looks great but again, the interior is not anywhere as nice; I feel, as the Audi.

joseaudi
10-16-2009, 01:11 PM
That's what sold me. Other than the power of course. It's got a super advanced transmission that is just way beyond old school manual shifting. your butt dynometer will be more impressed. Imagine. 0.2 second shifts!! Not many cars can do that.

Infra
10-16-2009, 01:47 PM
Should go for a rip in the s-tronic version. Let you focus on the car vs. the shifting with an unfamiliar clutch/shifter.

The turbo builds boost and the feel factor is a bit of a rush. The charger has no lull, just flat torque, so it feels eletric.

The way you describe bmw white, is the same as many describe ibis white. Funny that we both like the white on different cars.

And I currently have a Lexus IS in crystal white (pearl coat white)... I like the white on all three cars but feel that Lexus does it best. It just looks exceptional at night or when wet.

I want my S4 in Sprint Blue, though.

To the OP... if you are considering the 335i w/ an automatic, you need to try the S-tronic... it really is the best of both. That instant acceleration, engine-to-wheels connection you get in a manual, and the ability to just relax on the morning commute and not have to work a clutch.

mtmspeed
10-16-2009, 01:56 PM
No need to sway our opinions, we're here because we have made up our minds. You should make up yours and tell us in 10 words or less what you chose. good luck with your purchase.

thumper_
10-16-2009, 03:15 PM
No need to sway our opinions, we're here because we have made up our minds. You should make up yours and tell us in 10 words or less what you chose. good luck with your purchase.

LOL... I know, preaching to the choir... but people DO come onto this forum because of what they want to research, not just because of what they own. I posted this to Bimmerfest this morning, looking for some input, and wanted to do the same here because I felt it would be nice to get a balance of opinion.

Yes, although I lean toward the S4, the conclusion was that I was on the fence. Quite simply, there's the money factor as well... and though loaded up I feel I get more for the money in the S4, I can just get FAR better lease deals on a BMW than I can on an Audi. That's really a good part of what puts me on the fence; that and I REALLY do love my E46. Of course, if I buy instead of lease that goes away because the payments will be effectively identical. That decision hasn't been made yet, either.

I think I will go test-drive the s-tronic version as well... but I don't generally like autos. Yes, I know it's not an auto but I like the control that a real stick gives me. Having said that, I've never driven ANY car with a DCT so it'll be a new experience :)

Anyway, any other feedback always appreciated... and I wanted you guys to see a "bimmer fan's" opinion of the new S4 in depth.

Oh, and this post WAS slightly cut down to fit in the 25,000 character limit :P

Nvius
10-16-2009, 03:18 PM
This has nothing to do with this post. But...mtmspeed, I just watched that first video in your signature. Wow...amazing.

Here's a higher quality version
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sIrex6KeUKg

NWS4Guy
10-16-2009, 03:39 PM
I also highly encourage you to try out the S-tronic. The DSG is just amazing. Don't consider it an auto, because it's not - it's an electronically controlled manual. No torque converter, just has 2 clutches - one for even and one for odd gears. As such, don't drive it like an auto, just the paddle shifters like you would the stick, and TELL it what gear you want, and it will respond.

Double and triple tap to skip gears, with 8 milliseconds between shifts, it will barely enter a gear before dropping another if you are quick with the paddles. Driven aggressively like a manual without a clutch (how it should be driven), no clutch stick could ever hope to shift as fast or accurately.

impr
10-16-2009, 06:14 PM
Thanks for the lengthy review, my first post here, but I couldn't help but wonder why you wanted to cross shop the s4 and c350. Im surprised you didn't opt to cross shop a C63. Price wise, a c63 AMG almost matches a fully loaded S4 at US MSRP if I recall correctly and offers an electronically detuned 6.2L V8. Then again I guess you probably wouldn't like the fuel consumption.

Also granted the S4 is supposed to compete with the c350, but the price c63 is so close, and that intoxicating v8 snarl out of the eisenmann quad exhaust pipes never gets old for me when I fire it up in the morning. In terms of interior I guess its a subjective thing, I see it more as spartan and purposeful rather than cheap and camry-like. But of course that's my bias.

Anyway thanks for the review makes me feel better about picking a b8 s4 up to replace my aging bugeye WRX to go along side the c63.

aaron1085
10-16-2009, 06:55 PM
c63 interior is quite nice as well....

L0U
10-16-2009, 06:59 PM
c63 is a bit cheaper than m3 in canada, but about 8k more than s4.

Infra
10-16-2009, 07:12 PM
Yes, although I lean toward the S4, the conclusion was that I was on the fence. Quite simply, there's the money factor as well... and though loaded up I feel I get more for the money in the S4, I can just get FAR better lease deals on a BMW than I can on an Audi. That's really a good part of what puts me on the fence; that and I REALLY do love my E46. Of course, if I buy instead of lease that goes away because the payments will be effectively identical. That decision hasn't been made yet, either.

This is true... Audi really doesn't compare to BMW's lease offers. I've just reasoned that this is a vehicle I'll drive for a while, and will go with the financing when I order mine (gotta wait till current lease is up).

riegeraudi
10-16-2009, 08:38 PM
I enjoyed the story, a bit in depth, but thats what a review is. I too enjoy the styling of the MB, though have yet to sit in one, I have looked in a few windows and the interior does not impress me. The flip up navigation sand the bland styling looks .... BLAH.

The BMW looks great but again, the interior is not anywhere as nice; I feel, as the Audi.

Don't ever get an MB! I had three of them and I eventually came to my senses. The design are nice on the cars but the quality is horrendous especially the rust protection on those cars. That is the reason they only give you a 4/5 year rust protection on those cars compared to BMW and Audi's 12years. Many of them start rusting after 3.5years and all they do is repair it for you if repairable otherwis change the panel. This on top of the mechanical problems.
I will take a BMW or an Audi over MB. With MB you are playing with fire.

jdmnomore
10-16-2009, 09:58 PM
I stopped reading when you said the 330i has one of the nicest sounding exhausts youve ever heard.

Okan509
10-17-2009, 05:43 AM
In my area Audi has insanely better deals than BMW, It's why i went with Audi in the long run... strange to hear otherwise. BMW doesn't want to make deals at all!

L0U
10-17-2009, 08:17 AM
In my area Audi has insanely better deals than BMW, It's why i went with Audi in the long run... strange to hear otherwise. BMW doesn't want to make deals at all!

used to be that way, but the roles are starting to reverse. bmw is struggling financially, while Audi is gaining market share still. They are giving away bimmers nearly now days.

thumper_
10-17-2009, 09:11 AM
I stopped reading when you said the 330i has one of the nicest sounding exhausts youve ever heard.

Depends... if you're talking about the E90 330i then no... it's tinny and quite obnoxious. Also, the ZHP, despite having more horsepower (and the back DID say 330i) actually had an awful exhaust note. The early E46 330i's (like mine) actually have a very nice, deep exhaust note that sounds almost V8-ish. At WOT it sounds brash and purposeful... but it does have that nasty drone at around 50mph, but that goes away again about 55-58 [:D]

thumper_
10-17-2009, 09:17 AM
Thanks for the lengthy review, my first post here, but I couldn't help but wonder why you wanted to cross shop the s4 and c350. Im surprised you didn't opt to cross shop a C63. Price wise, a c63 AMG almost matches a fully loaded S4 at US MSRP if I recall correctly and offers an electronically detuned 6.2L V8. Then again I guess you probably wouldn't like the fuel consumption.

Also granted the S4 is supposed to compete with the c350, but the price c63 is so close, and that intoxicating v8 snarl out of the eisenmann quad exhaust pipes never gets old for me when I fire it up in the morning. In terms of interior I guess its a subjective thing, I see it more as spartan and purposeful rather than cheap and camry-like. But of course that's my bias.

Anyway thanks for the review makes me feel better about picking a b8 s4 up to replace my aging bugeye WRX to go along side the c63.

Yeah, you know I'll probably take a look at the C63, but the interior of the current C-class just rubs me the wrong way. Even in pictures I think it looks stark and almost funerary. The funny thing is, I think the materials in the C-350 were fine... it was really the design that rubbed me the wrong way.

Thing is, the S4 is already at the high end of the amount of money I want to spend on my next car. The problem with the S4's packages is the way I want the car I really have to get the Prestige package... but to get the options I REALLY want on the Bimmer I am looking at a car that's actually going to be a good $5K cheaper, particularly when you take into account European Delivery Invoice Price (which is well advertised on Bimmerfest). The fact that I can't find this info for Audi means that I am automatically on the defensive when it comes to negotiation; with BMW I can walk in and say precisely how much I want to spend (ED Invoice plus $1000, say) and it's up to the dealer to say yay or nay; I can always take my business elsewhere.

Anyway, back on the C-class... that flip-up nav screen? Urgh!!! That's ugly... if I wanted that I'd put an aftermarket head unit in my 330i... give me something that's integrated and "flows" with the rest of the dash. In fact that's the one thing I don't like about the iDrive in pictures... but I also think the dash of the BMW looks odd without it. Go figure.

L0U
10-17-2009, 12:10 PM
weak....

http://www.audiusa.com/us/brand/en/exp/audi_culture/european_delivery.html#source=http://www.audiusa.com/us/brand/en/exp/audi_culture/european_delivery/program_benefits.html&container=page
5% off msrp
•Audi is pleased to offer a one room, one night, complimentary hotel accommodation for you and a guest at a choice of three Audi recommended hotels
•Complimentary 15-day Insurance Coverage, Export License Plates, Vehicle Registration*
•A scheduled guided tour of our factory and a visit to the Mobile museum are available
•Complimentary meals and non-alcoholic beverages at the Customer Center Market Restaurant on your delivery day
•Ground transportation of your vehicle from any of the 14 established European drop off points
•Drop off location fees
•Storage and terminal handling fees
•Ocean freight and marine insurance
•Customs duty and clearance

B8 Phantom S4
10-17-2009, 12:29 PM
weak....

I was actually thinking about doing that too, but you have to pay the VAT which is something like 19% of the sales price, which is refundable, but not until the car is delivered to you. It's kind of a lot of money to have tied up for 2-3 months; for me at least.

Nvius
10-17-2009, 01:07 PM
I got almost 5% just doing regular negotiating...

Okan509
10-17-2009, 01:35 PM
used to be that way, but the roles are starting to reverse. bmw is struggling financially, while Audi is gaining market share still. They are giving away bimmers nearly now days.

It is still impossible to get a bimmer here in florida, st.pete area. I think they have the mentality that we have to make as much money off of each car, because we are not selling that many.

When they should be working in the mentality of- the more cars we sell; even if not making as much on each one; the more profit!

These are symbolic of idiotic american ideals. My father had to go to orlando to buy his X6, was ready to throw down the money on the table, but they wouldn't go down 2 grand. Dumb.

Okan509
10-17-2009, 01:40 PM
Don't ever get an MB! I had three of them and I eventually came to my senses. The design are nice on the cars but the quality is horrendous especially the rust protection on those cars. That is the reason they only give you a 4/5 year rust protection on those cars compared to BMW and Audi's 12years. Many of them start rusting after 3.5years and all they do is repair it for you if repairable otherwis change the panel. This on top of the mechanical problems.

MB's traction control is bullshit. When you have it on, it controls too much, making the brakes die out fast(had to replace mine after 20k miles) and when you have it off, you slip and slide all over the place. I wouldn't buy a MB right now. definitely not a c63

impr
10-17-2009, 03:05 PM
Yeah, you know I'll probably take a look at the C63, but the interior of the current C-class just rubs me the wrong way. Even in pictures I think it looks stark and almost funerary. The funny thing is, I think the materials in the C-350 were fine... it was really the design that rubbed me the wrong way.

Thing is, the S4 is already at the high end of the amount of money I want to spend on my next car. The problem with the S4's packages is the way I want the car I really have to get the Prestige package... but to get the options I REALLY want on the Bimmer I am looking at a car that's actually going to be a good $5K cheaper, particularly when you take into account European Delivery Invoice Price (which is well advertised on Bimmerfest). The fact that I can't find this info for Audi means that I am automatically on the defensive when it comes to negotiation; with BMW I can walk in and say precisely how much I want to spend (ED Invoice plus $1000, say) and it's up to the dealer to say yay or nay; I can always take my business elsewhere.

Anyway, back on the C-class... that flip-up nav screen? Urgh!!! That's ugly... if I wanted that I'd put an aftermarket head unit in my 330i... give me something that's integrated and "flows" with the rest of the dash. In fact that's the one thing I don't like about the iDrive in pictures... but I also think the dash of the BMW looks odd without it. Go figure.

Yeah true the NAV screen doesn't flow with the dash, but the main draws of the C63 are the nicely bolstered seats that just hug you in place, and the thick rimmed flat bottomed steering wheel. I didn't want too stiff of a ride so I got my C63 without the stiffer springs, but its got great road feel, communicative steering and still stays firm without being crashy when going over bumps or dips in the road.

I've heard during the summer people managed to get about 5-7k off on the C63's msrp in the states, but of course, the interior is still mostly the same aside from the much nicer, imo, seats and steering wheel.

For those of you saying the merc TCS is horrible, have you driven a c63 yet? Cuz I feel in sport mode its fine, gives you a nice balance between excitement and safety. Obviously with TCS completely off with only 255 rubber on the rears it can start having some serious tail wagging, but the way the car is setup now it's an easily controllable slide. Concerning the rust issue, I've had 3 mercedes in my life.. one is still a '86 420 sel, the other was a cls55 amg and now a c63 and none of them ever had rust. Of course if it was a c230 kompressor or any of the mercs from the mid 90s to early 2000s those were lacking in quality. The C63 is probably one of the most compelling cars from Merc in a long time, with great chassis dynamics and an incredible engine to boot. All german cars have their share of issues, but the only issue I have with the C63 right now is that it uses a ton of oil up.

Anyway back to the S4, I feel the interior obviously is much nicer overall, the seats aren't as cushy but that's a personal preference, and for wider individuals might not be as favorable of a feature. In terms of all weather performance the S4 is obviously superior, but in terms of bang for your buck performance I couldn't resist the draw of having a small sedan that can run easily with its bigger brothers. Of course, for the other two seasons, the S4 both in terms of safety and excitement shines. The C63 on the other hand isn't for everybody, but it's made enormous improvements over previous AMG models and at a 'bargain' price.

riegeraudi
10-17-2009, 03:28 PM
Yeah true the NAV screen doesn't flow with the dash, but the main draws of the C63 are the nicely bolstered seats that just hug you in place, and the thick rimmed flat bottomed steering wheel. I didn't want too stiff of a ride so I got my C63 without the stiffer springs, but its got great road feel, communicative steering and still stays firm without being crashy when going over bumps or dips in the road.

I've heard during the summer people managed to get about 5-7k off on the C63's msrp in the states, but of course, the interior is still mostly the same aside from the much nicer, imo, seats and steering wheel.

For those of you saying the merc TCS is horrible, have you driven a c63 yet? Cuz I feel in sport mode its fine, gives you a nice balance between excitement and safety. Obviously with TCS completely off with only 255 rubber on the rears it can start having some serious tail wagging, but the way the car is setup now it's an easily controllable slide. Concerning the rust issue, I've had 3 mercedes in my life.. one is still a '86 420 sel, the other was a cls55 amg and now a c63 and none of them ever had rust. Of course if it was a c230 kompressor or any of the mercs from the mid 90s to early 2000s those were lacking in quality. The C63 is probably one of the most compelling cars from Merc in a long time, with great chassis dynamics and an incredible engine to boot. All german cars have their share of issues, but the only issue I have with the C63 right now is that it uses a ton of oil up.

Anyway back to the S4, I feel the interior obviously is much nicer overall, the seats aren't as cushy but that's a personal preference, and for wider individuals might not be as favorable of a feature. In terms of all weather performance the S4 is obviously superior, but in terms of bang for your buck performance I couldn't resist the draw of having a small sedan that can run easily with its bigger brothers. Of course, for the other two seasons, the S4 both in terms of safety and excitement shines. The C63 on the other hand isn't for everybody, but it's made enormous improvements over previous AMG models and at a 'bargain' price.

Well if I had to buy any MB again it would definitely be the C63. It has a great engine and nice exterior. I have driven one and without the TCS on it is just nuts to drive it, and with the TCS I find it always kicking in when you drive it in the rain or aggressively this was the same for the E500.
I had 2000 to 2003 model MB's and all of them had rusting problems. The S-Class had over $20,000cdn of warrantied rust work done to the car, the C-class had a couple of grand of work before I got rid of it and the E500 just started developing rust that was barely visible but mechanically had over $15,000cdn of warranty work done on it.
What I do love about the C63 is that in a straight away it can run with the big boys but on the track I rather have an M3 or the S4.
Daily driver though the S4 takes the cake IMO. Torque yet qiuet, ride comfortable yet sporty, Interior is top notch, maintenance is definitely cheaper than M3 or C63 when out of warranty due to abundance of great aftermarket parts, and it won't chew up tires like the C63.
I vote S4 for daily driver and C63 for weekend car if you need 4 doors and M3 for track car. Agree?

Okan509
10-17-2009, 03:36 PM
For those of you saying the merc TCS is horrible, have you driven a c63 yet? Cuz I feel in sport mode its fine, gives you a nice balance between excitement and safety.

You must have not been driving it very hard, that thing is nuts! Without Traction control it's like trying to ride a bull, seriously out of control. The traction control on is terrible, hate the system, can't wait till they update.

It is impossible to get a mid range driving experience from the c63, its either wild as fuck, or conservative, and eats your brake discs

impr
10-17-2009, 03:49 PM
Riegeraudi yeah I'd agree on the fact that for daily driving the S4 definately fits the bill, which is why I've got one ordered :), and of course in terms of having TCS off on such a torquey rwd car like the C63, I always follow the old adage of slow in fast out. I suppose that's the advantage of awd you can get on the power much earlier, kinda like how in my bugeye wrx I could just keep my foot planted halfway through a turn and steer out. Sucks to hear about your mishaps with your Mercs, they really did have a big dip in quality around then though, and since then have made a great effort to bring the quality back up from the problem prone w211s and the w220s.

Okan509, I probably haven't driven it to 10-10ths but at least 8 or 9-10ths and up to that point I'd say it loves to go sideways and spin its wheels a bit, but as long as you're not going WOT during a turn or in the wet, it's manageable :p.

boombastic
10-17-2009, 04:38 PM
im driving a M3, and C63, just bought the S4 a week ago as my winter ride ( didnt feel too good with my M3 last year). anyway, after 1 week ownership of the S4, trust me or not. personally, if i want to rank those cars by handling, i will go like M3>S4>C63. maybe b/c my c63 doesnt have performance package which includes stiffer suspension and LSD. as straight line performance, the answer is always C63(got powerchip ecu which brings hp to 520). S4, it is actually pretty fast at its level.


Yeah true the NAV screen doesn't flow with the dash, but the main draws of the C63 are the nicely bolstered seats that just hug you in place, and the thick rimmed flat bottomed steering wheel. I didn't want too stiff of a ride so I got my C63 without the stiffer springs, but its got great road feel, communicative steering and still stays firm without being crashy when going over bumps or dips in the road.

I've heard during the summer people managed to get about 5-7k off on the C63's msrp in the states, but of course, the interior is still mostly the same aside from the much nicer, imo, seats and steering wheel.

For those of you saying the merc TCS is horrible, have you driven a c63 yet? Cuz I feel in sport mode its fine, gives you a nice balance between excitement and safety. Obviously with TCS completely off with only 255 rubber on the rears it can start having some serious tail wagging, but the way the car is setup now it's an easily controllable slide. Concerning the rust issue, I've had 3 mercedes in my life.. one is still a '86 420 sel, the other was a cls55 amg and now a c63 and none of them ever had rust. Of course if it was a c230 kompressor or any of the mercs from the mid 90s to early 2000s those were lacking in quality. The C63 is probably one of the most compelling cars from Merc in a long time, with great chassis dynamics and an incredible engine to boot. All german cars have their share of issues, but the only issue I have with the C63 right now is that it uses a ton of oil up.

Anyway back to the S4, I feel the interior obviously is much nicer overall, the seats aren't as cushy but that's a personal preference, and for wider individuals might not be as favorable of a feature. In terms of all weather performance the S4 is obviously superior, but in terms of bang for your buck performance I couldn't resist the draw of having a small sedan that can run easily with its bigger brothers. Of course, for the other two seasons, the S4 both in terms of safety and excitement shines. The C63 on the other hand isn't for everybody, but it's made enormous improvements over previous AMG models and at a 'bargain' price.

Okan509
10-17-2009, 05:36 PM
it's manageable :p.

hahahah yeah its manageable, its the type of car you can drift in, I prefer something agile and tight around corners, although it would be one hell of a car on a track!

vjma
10-17-2009, 06:09 PM
If i have to get a Merc, it will be the C63, no questions. However, that is if you are pointing a gun at my head and demand me to do so. After the horror of the last generation S class and a SLK, I swear I will never get one. The latest offerings seems better in quality but then the new E class is just so plain that it almost looks like a Camry!

Anyway, I think the S4 will be the best all round car. It may not be as exciting as the M3/C63 (it is not designed to be) but it will be more comfortable when you want to relax, which is more than half of the time for me. Locally the S4 is about $20K cheaper than the M3/C63 too it is not a hard choice for me!

boombastic
10-17-2009, 06:21 PM
+1 just came back from my trip from atlantic city NJ. S4 is a really good car on highway, i did miss my beast c63 on highway but hes covered for winter. so i need a chip for the S4 ^^.

If i have to get a Merc, it will be the C63, no questions. However, that is if you are pointing a gun at my head and demand me to do so. After the horror of the last generation S class and a SLK, I swear I will never get one. The latest offerings seems better in quality but then the new E class is just so plain that it almost looks like a Camry!

Anyway, I think the S4 will be the best all round car. It may not be as exciting as the M3/C63 (it is not designed to be) but it will be more comfortable when you want to relax, which is more than half of the time for me. Locally the S4 is about $20K cheaper than the M3/C63 too it is not a hard choice for me!

L0U
10-17-2009, 06:28 PM
+1 just came back from my trip from atlantic city NJ. S4 is a really good car on highway, i did miss my beast c63 on highway but hes covered for winter. so i need a chip for the S4 ^^.


Be the first to mtm that thing and report back. 430hp should liven it up a bit. The 2900 is holding me back from trying.

boombastic
10-17-2009, 06:32 PM
same thing, i also found out ABT has its ecu upgrade for s4 abt 435 hp. no price was listed.


Be the first to mtm that thing and report back. 430hp should liven it up a bit. The 2900 is holding me back from trying.

L0U
10-17-2009, 06:38 PM
I inquired about the abt, and was told it is not being sold in north america. Maybe the abt distributor was brushing me off.

boombastic
10-17-2009, 06:43 PM
i just hope apr, giac, etc can have their software out asap. s4 is really the fun car, i enjoy the DSG as much as the DCT in m3.

riegeraudi
10-17-2009, 09:34 PM
I totally agree with you guys here that the M3 is the best for handling hence why I would love to buy one for the track and maybe weekend drives, S4 for daily driver and if still have money( I doubt it ) I would buy the C63 just to race with the big boys. Each car has it's own niche which is neat. But the question is if you can only have one which one would it be?
For me it would be the S4 and my reason would be it falls in right between the M3 and the C63.

joung300
10-18-2009, 02:13 AM
I own a 335i and I have driven the new s4. Truly a matter of personal preference and the deals you can find in your area. AWD traction or RWD balance? Twin-Turbo rush or S/C response?

I think it all comes down to the way the car makes you feel. As cliche as that sounds I feel like purchasing a car is largely an emotional decision. At the time I purchased the 335i, the closest competition from Audi was the v8 s4 and on the more expensive end the rs4. I did consider the v8 s4 but found gas mileage to be more on par with my 7 series than a small sedan. Also the torque of the twin turbo motor was appealing. I ended up ordering my car with prem. package, sport package, and 6mt. I ended up paying 44,500 out the door (including taxes).

I've enjoyed this car for a few years and several thousand miles and it is a supremely satisfying driving experience. But given the choice of a b8 s4 and a new 335i I would probably say go for the s4. It is marginally quicker than the 335i but incredibly smooth with the r-tronic gearbox. The gearbox is unbelievably good. The interior is better looking but quality of materials is similar.

I know what its like to let go of a car you love. I had a e46 m3 that I adored for several years. But I don't regret moving into my e90.

Good Luck on your purchase, either way 335i or s4 you can't go wrong with either one.

thumper_
10-18-2009, 09:05 AM
joung300:- Thanks for the comments. Yeah, I agree completely that a car buying experience is mostly emotional... and to be honest both the 335i and the S4 excite me, but for completely different reasons. The C63, as much as I like the sound that it makes on the Top Gear comparo between the M3, C63 and last gen Audi RS4 I'm just not sold on either the exterior (a bit "shouty") or the interior (am I in a funeral home?). I will probably drive it anyway, and will report [:)]

I'm going to give both cars a fair shake (the Bimmer and Audi)... but after doing some more research yesterday I think I'm also going to include an M3 with the "M Tech" package (the adjustable suspension and so on). Partly because I think that driving that will be a pretty fair comparison with the bits I REALLY liked in the S4, and partly because when I did my calculations on European Delivery Invoice Price, the M3 with the options I wanted came out almost the exact same price as the S4 [confused]

Yeah I know, RWD instead of AWD... but in truth we don't get enough snow here in St. Louis for it to be a serious problem. Besides, I have one of those jobs where I can work 99% as effectively from home as I can at work... and as such on REALLY snowy days I can still get "to work", but in my bathrobe... hopefully... [:D]

Anyway, I'll continue to update both the Bimmerfest and Audizine communities... I hope you will all find my posts interesting, particularly if you (or someone you know) is making a similar choice. I've set myself a deadline of March to decide, mostly for ordering reasons... as I have something to update, I will.

boombastic
10-19-2009, 06:33 AM
just wondering abt the price for both cars, a fully loaded S4 like mine has a total 59k MSRP. what kind of options in the M3 you spec will add to equal amount? my garage mate, 2009 E92 M3 fully loaded listed MSRP 74k. paid 1000 below invoice at the time i bought it around 67k, which is still 8k more expensive than the S4 if i paid in full MSRP price. Euro delivery will have that much price difference?



joung300:- Thanks for the comments. Yeah, I agree completely that a car buying experience is mostly emotional... and to be honest both the 335i and the S4 excite me, but for completely different reasons. The C63, as much as I like the sound that it makes on the Top Gear comparo between the M3, C63 and last gen Audi RS4 I'm just not sold on either the exterior (a bit "shouty") or the interior (am I in a funeral home?). I will probably drive it anyway, and will report [:)]

I'm going to give both cars a fair shake (the Bimmer and Audi)... but after doing some more research yesterday I think I'm also going to include an M3 with the "M Tech" package (the adjustable suspension and so on). Partly because I think that driving that will be a pretty fair comparison with the bits I REALLY liked in the S4, and partly because when I did my calculations on European Delivery Invoice Price, the M3 with the options I wanted came out almost the exact same price as the S4 [confused]

Yeah I know, RWD instead of AWD... but in truth we don't get enough snow here in St. Louis for it to be a serious problem. Besides, I have one of those jobs where I can work 99% as effectively from home as I can at work... and as such on REALLY snowy days I can still get "to work", but in my bathrobe... hopefully... [:D]

Anyway, I'll continue to update both the Bimmerfest and Audizine communities... I hope you will all find my posts interesting, particularly if you (or someone you know) is making a similar choice. I've set myself a deadline of March to decide, mostly for ordering reasons... as I have something to update, I will.

vjma
10-19-2009, 07:11 AM
joung300:- Thanks for the comments. Yeah, I agree completely that a car buying experience is mostly emotional... and to be honest both the 335i and the S4 excite me, but for completely different reasons. The C63, as much as I like the sound that it makes on the Top Gear comparo between the M3, C63 and last gen Audi RS4 I'm just not sold on either the exterior (a bit "shouty") or the interior (am I in a funeral home?). I will probably drive it anyway, and will report [:)]

I'm going to give both cars a fair shake (the Bimmer and Audi)... but after doing some more research yesterday I think I'm also going to include an M3 with the "M Tech" package (the adjustable suspension and so on). Partly because I think that driving that will be a pretty fair comparison with the bits I REALLY liked in the S4, and partly because when I did my calculations on European Delivery Invoice Price, the M3 with the options I wanted came out almost the exact same price as the S4 [confused]

Yeah I know, RWD instead of AWD... but in truth we don't get enough snow here in St. Louis for it to be a serious problem. Besides, I have one of those jobs where I can work 99% as effectively from home as I can at work... and as such on REALLY snowy days I can still get "to work", but in my bathrobe... hopefully... [:D]

Anyway, I'll continue to update both the Bimmerfest and Audizine communities... I hope you will all find my posts interesting, particularly if you (or someone you know) is making a similar choice. I've set myself a deadline of March to decide, mostly for ordering reasons... as I have something to update, I will.

Great write up. Looking forward to hear more from you.

thumper_
10-19-2009, 07:31 AM
just wondering abt the price for both cars, a fully loaded S4 like mine has a total 59k MSRP. what kind of options in the M3 you spec will add to equal amount? my garage mate, 2009 E92 M3 fully loaded listed MSRP 74k. paid 1000 below invoice at the time i bought it around 67k, which is still 8k more expensive than the S4 if i paid in full MSRP price. Euro delivery will have that much price difference?

Well, I don't have solid information regarding ED Invoice Price for an S4 Prestige with stick, but I have calculated a little over $52,000. Now note that's a guess based upon averages.

With solid information from Bimmerfest, ED Invoice Price on an M3 with the M Technology Package, Heated Seats (speed cloth... I prefer it to leather), Stick... basically the options I REALLY want... put it at... just short of $53,000. The price is as close to identical as makes no odds... somewhere around $500 difference.

Now, I know that the Audi would provide me more creature comforts... sunroof (nice but don't care all that much), AWD (again, not a big deal to me) and fully leather seats (though I DO like the Alcantara seats...) but the M3 is enticing because it's got an extra 80hp stock, though torque is lower (standing starts take practice in the new M3). So no, the comparison is not "apples to apples", but we are talking about two different classes of cars; the RS4 is intended to compete with the M3 (when it arrives)... the S4 is competition for the 335i.

I'm still not sold on either, and haven't driven an M3 on a true test drive yet (driven a friend's on a car park, never on the street and it was a base model without the ADS-equivalent). An M3 is still tempting, and I could live with the loss of a few creature comforts to drive what may be the last V8 M3... [eek]

boombastic
10-19-2009, 08:23 AM
interesting, maybe i will try that on my next car.


Well, I don't have solid information regarding ED Invoice Price for an S4 Prestige with stick, but I have calculated a little over $52,000. Now note that's a guess based upon averages.

With solid information from Bimmerfest, ED Invoice Price on an M3 with the M Technology Package, Heated Seats (speed cloth... I prefer it to leather), Stick... basically the options I REALLY want... put it at... just short of $53,000. The price is as close to identical as makes no odds... somewhere around $500 difference.

Now, I know that the Audi would provide me more creature comforts... sunroof (nice but don't care all that much), AWD (again, not a big deal to me) and fully leather seats (though I DO like the Alcantara seats...) but the M3 is enticing because it's got an extra 80hp stock, though torque is lower (standing starts take practice in the new M3). So no, the comparison is not "apples to apples", but we are talking about two different classes of cars; the RS4 is intended to compete with the M3 (when it arrives)... the S4 is competition for the 335i.

I'm still not sold on either, and haven't driven an M3 on a true test drive yet (driven a friend's on a car park, never on the street and it was a base model without the ADS-equivalent). An M3 is still tempting, and I could live with the loss of a few creature comforts to drive what may be the last V8 M3... [eek]

a4 steve
10-19-2009, 08:29 AM
get the 335 i and get a chip you will have over 400 hp and 400 tq

NWS4Guy
10-19-2009, 08:38 AM
RS4 is supposedly killed, you will have to settle/hope for an RS5 instead it seems.

joung300
10-19-2009, 12:16 PM
get the 335 i and get a chip you will have over 400 hp and 400 tq

after reading about blown turbo systems costing north of 15k to replace on bimmerfest.com, I would be wary of doing modifications before doing some research. I've already read of >5 cases of of Juice Box kits ruining some motors.

you could also buy the s4 and pick up the mtm tune good for 430 hp [up][up]

papashango
09-26-2010, 09:15 PM
When it comes to reliability and maintenance costs, would you guys say the 335i and s4 are equal? i echo the topic starter 100% when he said you feel the bmw acceleration, whereas the audi just goes. The audi is more cerebral but delivers the same results. More versatile and you can have a chill ride or aggressive one. I think the bmw keeps you alert 100% of the time, maybe it is the heavy steering?

DJRs4
09-27-2010, 08:33 PM
S4 better overall value, more advanced but more that can go wrong. Our water pump went out at 12k and we still don't trust it and has died 3 times at stop lights, up until then we thought is was the perfect car, none of them are.

A mildly tuned 335 will get away from you with $600 in parts they can take out in a 1/2 hour put it back to stock and visit the dealer. 335i's are a dime a dozen and parts are getting cheap, you can pick up a pair of upgraded turbos for $3000 a flash or tune and have a real sleeper. After loosing to a few I started second guessing our purchase but since its really the wife's car and she wanted something a little more subtle the decision was made.

The cars are very closely matched and more money will always determine performance. After driving a modified 335 although refined i think could be the more raw performer that will make you smile, but not in stock form. S4 just does it in a different way.

Get what you like and don't look back unless its to see the 335 behind you.