Car and Driver: Audi S4 vs: 335i Article

[iamaudi.com]

By popular demand here is the full Car and Driver article comparing the new Audi S4 and the BMW 335i, It is a good read.

http://img114.imageshack.us/img114/5386/s4vs335inov2009cdpage1y.jpg (http://www.iamaudi.com)

http://img56.imageshack.us/img56/5954/s4vs335inov2009cdpage2.jpg (http://www.iamaudi.com)

http://img114.imageshack.us/img114/50/s4vs335inov2009cdpage3.jpg (http://www.iamaudi.com)

http://img18.imageshack.us/img18/5472/s4vs335inov2009cdpage4.jpg (http://www.iamaudi.com)

http://img340.imageshack.us/img340/5605/s4vs335inov2009cdpage5.jpg (http://www.iamaudi.com)

http://img73.imageshack.us/img73/7848/s4vs335inov2009cdpage6.jpg (http://www.iamaudi.com)

[BlackB6]

Good read indeed [up].

[brownishwater]

Let the debate begin...

<Paging the 2 BMW fanbois>

[Papachristou]

finally!

[Silverstreak98]

Thanks for posting!

[L0U]

everytime I read it, I think the S4 pounded the 335 harder than the previous read.

[Okan509]

audi's interiors are the best out of any brand name it it's class, better than some out of its class. Mercedes had great interiors with until recently, and I've never been fond of BMW. I owned a 2006 C230 and the interior was perfect, they've lost this now.

[L0U]

article from 2001, bmw lost the title for the s4 vs 335, but they maintained this title for 9 years running. There is allways next year.

http://www.epinions.com/content_960077956

[riegeraudi]

audi's interiors are the best out of any brand name it it's class, better than some out of its class. Mercedes had great interiors with until recently, and I've never been fond of BMW. I owned a 2006 C230 and the interior was perfect, they've lost this now.

MB interiors are so cheap now. The C and the new E class interior have so much black plastic and no textures.
The BMW has always be simple interiors if that is what you like but it also looks dated and definitely cheap materials
Audi in my opinion almost perfect except they should have made the painted silver part also brushed aluminum like the door trims or carbon fibre for carbon interiors.

[Sin_city_Rings]

Just recieved this issue in the mail today. I was very pleased to see the verdict of this test! GO Audi!![up]

[Toast]

just to start the war - enjoy it while you can because next year bmw will have something new in the 3 series which im sure will heat things up even more

[vjma]

This test is consistent with every other tests that I've read so far. Even the most pro-BWM magazines had to admit defeat this time. However, there will always be people preferring one to the other for different reasons. So who cares as long as you paid your hard earned cash for the one you like?

[L0U]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uULudWLWFP0

see what happens when they test the s4 with the 19s...car and driver tried real hard to rig the test towards a 335 outcome. here the S4 beats in the slalom,1/4,0-60,braking,...go figure eh...oh and equaled the skidpad too. car and driver test is a comic book, just look at the pictures, because the print is a fib.

[A6.S-line]

C&D did test the S4 with 19s (read the article).

In any case, in most if not all comparo's the mags drive the cars as equipped and provided by the manufacturers.

[sakimano]

C&D did test the S4 with 19s (read the article).

In any case, in most if not all comparo's the mags drive the cars as equipped and provided by the manufacturers.

true, but I think his point was that C&D was anti-Audi from the get go.

This review felt the same...
http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/comparisons/09q3/2010_audi_r8_5.2_v10_fsi_quattro_vs._2009_ferrari_ 430_scuderia-comparison_tests

while the Scuderia is definitely the quicker, trackier car, C&D did everything they could in the ratings to favour the Ferrari. It's comical...they even praised the Ferrari's interior. Having sat in a Scuderia, the interior looks like a grenade went off. It's raw, hard, uncomfortable, ergonomically disastrous and at the end of the day...THERE IS NO INTERIOR! How they gave the nod to the Ferrari I'll never know. Just looks like a stacked deck.

Further, comparing the V10 R8 fully equipped to the Scuderia is about as relevant as comparing a VW Golf 1.8TDI to Sony's new 65" Bravia XBR LCD TV.

There's a stripped Audi R8 coming...tougher, harder, WAY lighter, stripped of its niceties, and RWD to boot...that's the comparo for the scuderia and the GT3/GT2...not the plush R8 5.2 in full luxo trim. It's just bad journalism.

[A6.S-line]

true, but I think his point was that C&D was anti-Audi from the get go.


His point was based on the (false) premise that C&D, intentionally and by design, tested the S4 on something other than the presumably optimal 19s.

Anyway, regardless of that rather dubious point, does anyone else think the test was "rigged" from the get go? The article begins by noting their admiration for the previous edition of the S4 and its win in its last comparo. It ends with the new S4 winning this comparo as well. Where exactly is the bias here?

Or are we all neurotic? Winning a magazine test isn't enough - we feel better because we believe "it was against stacked odds"?


This review felt the same...
http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/comparisons/09q3/2010_audi_r8_5.2_v10_fsi_quattro_vs._2009_ferrari_ 430_scuderia-comparison_tests

while the Scuderia is definitely the quicker, trackier car, C&D did everything they could in the ratings to favour the Ferrari. It's comical...they even praised the Ferrari's interior. Having sat in a Scuderia, the interior looks like a grenade went off. It's raw, hard, uncomfortable, ergonomically disastrous and at the end of the day...THERE IS NO INTERIOR! How they gave the nod to the Ferrari I'll never know. Just looks like a stacked deck.

Further, comparing the V10 R8 fully equipped to the Scuderia is about as relevant as comparing a VW Golf 1.8TDI to Sony's new 65" Bravia XBR LCD TV.

There's a stripped Audi R8 coming...tougher, harder, WAY lighter, stripped of its niceties, and RWD to boot...that's the comparo for the scuderia and the GT3/GT2...not the plush R8 5.2 in full luxo trim. It's just bad journalism.

Here's the thing about the subjective parts of these comparisons (e.g. interiors): they're merely opinions and you don't have to agree with them [up] I couldn't care less what they said about the interior of an F430, Scuderia or otherwise; I'd probably take it in a heartbeat over an R8, 5.2 or otherwise.

Besides, what should an R8 5.2 be compared to? These aren't Honda Accords, where exact competitors can be not only identified but also obtained from their manufacturers quite easily. Not only does an R8 V10 have few exact competitors, I'm guessing it's not easy to obtain those few Porsches, Lambos or Ferraris at the same time.

Any mag needs to fill its pages (and sell copy), that's an obvious caveat to reading them. Should they have published a "what if" article instead, hypothesizing on how the upcoming R8 might do against the Scuderia? Or, if they hold off every time they are about to make an inexact comparison in the world of exotics, what would be left of the magazine? Would you still read these mags, with all the blank pages from them waiting to find a better match-up?

And if C&D is such a bastion of bias (a bias which can be bought, presumably) and poor journalism, why are we celebrating an Audi's "win" there?

[L0U]

I think the bias comes from 4 extra points on cost for the bmw, when if they had optioned it out the same the cost factor would have been 1 at best. Not putting 2k worth of awd on it, and keeping it a stripper is not realistic when the S4 had every option nearly.

The other odd part is driver comfort. In the text they say the S4 seats were more comfortable, and they slag the 335 for harsh runflats affecting ride. The S4 has less interior noise as well. So a tie perhaps, but plus 1 for 335 on comfrt seems odd.

Finally. The bias of saving the 2k on cost with no awd....well it saved 200 lbs too, and drivetrain loses, and 2% worse weight bias.....then the same thing is rewarded in the points for cost, braking.

The 335 does fine. I take exception to calling it a close win. I'd say it was a blowout when the real inconsitantcies are taken into account. If it was the 335x loaded...it would not have won any category except driver comfort.....which is half baked. Edmunds test did have the s4 doing a sweep in every category, and they too used a rwd 335.

If the 335 had beaten the s4 in all categories, anyone saying it was a close call would be laughed at.

[NWS4Guy]

I think the bias comes from 4 extra points on cost for the bmw, when if they had optioned it out the same the cost factor would have been 1 at best. Not putting 2k worth of awd on it, and keeping it a stripper is not realistic when the S4 had every option nearly.

The other odd part is driver comfort. In the text they say the S4 seats were more comfortable, and they slag the 335 for harsh runflats affecting ride. The S4 has less interior noise as well. So a tie perhaps, but plus 1 for 335 on comfrt seems odd.

Finally. The bias of saving the 2k on cost with no awd....well it saved 200 lbs too, and drivetrain loses, and 2% worse weight bias.....then the same thing is rewarded in the points for cost, braking.

The 335 does fine. I take exception to calling it a close win. I'd say it was a blowout when the real inconsitantcies are taken into account. If it was the 335x loaded...it would not have won any category except driver comfort.....which is half baked. Edmunds test did have the s4 doing a sweep in every category, and they too used a rwd 335.

If the 335 had beaten the s4 in all categories, anyone saying it was a close call would be laughed at.

I'd also add that on the Edmunds, they dinged the S4 by 20 points alone for the cost over the 335, and the S4 STILL won by over 17 points.

[illusive45]

I agree. I'm usually a C&D supporter but they totally skewed the results. The S4 shoulda stomped on the 335i even more! Only # that scares me: 4000 lbs!!! I thought Audi was making a conscientious effort to cut down on weight?
I know they say it doesn't feel like 2 tons, but those are cold, hard numbers. You can't hide the weight. I'm just gonna have to test drive one.

[L0U]

4k is a lot of mass eh....all the suv drivers that want to be safe in a boat anchor, have an alternative now in a sedan. My winter tires/rims takes 60lbs off the rotating weight alone.

[NWS4Guy]

Yea I can't argue the weight, but I can say that after driving it, the S4 certainly doesn't FEEL like 2 tons. The wife has a little LR2, and it weighs just a couple hundred pounds more and feels like a tank, so they at least decieve well, and get crazy performance out of something so hefty.

[D's Avant]

The weight is a killer in my mind, I'll keep my paid for B5 a liitle longer. If they bring in the S4 Avant, that's another story. Good to see Audi beat BMW too.

[sakimano]

Besides, what should an R8 5.2 be compared to? These aren't Honda Accords, where exact competitors can be not only identified but also obtained from their manufacturers quite easily. Not only does an R8 V10 have few exact competitors, I'm guessing it's not easy to obtain those few Porsches, Lambos or Ferraris at the same time.


An R8 5.2 should be compared to its competitors...Lamborghini Gallardo LP560-4, Ferrari F430.

Go watch Top Gear for a while...if comparing a stripped our Ferrari...they'll bring in a stripped out Lamborghini. If comparing a full interior Ferrari...they'll bring in a full interior Lamborghini. They get it. C&D didn't...(in this instance)

p.s. you're a good writer.

[sakimano]

The weight is a killer in my mind, I'll keep my paid for B5 a liitle longer. If they bring in the S4 Avant, that's another story. Good to see Audi beat BMW too.

so...if it weighed the same as say a a B5 S4 you'd have sold your B5 A4 and bought the $55,000 B8? Come on.

p.s. B5 S4 sedan with a manual transmission weighs about 3600lbs. B8 S4 sedan weighs about 3750. The difference is 150lbs...negligible.

[vwong]

I think the bias comes from 4 extra points on cost for the bmw, when if they had optioned it out the same the cost factor would have been 1 at best. Not putting 2k worth of awd on it, and keeping it a stripper is not realistic when the S4 had every option nearly.

[up] I actually think that the cost factor should be equal between the S4 and the 335i when they option both equally.

My S4's MSRP was $55,925; and my 335i's MSRP was $53,650.

My S4:
- ibis white (so no extra charge for paint)
- 6MT
- prestige
- sport rear diff
- silk nappa leather
- carbon inlays
- power rear sunshade

My 335i coupe:
- alpine white (also no extra charge for paint)
- rwd (I feel like BMW is known for its rwd, not awd)
- 6MT
- M-sport pkg.
- premium pkg.
- heated front seats (standard in the S4)
- comfort access (standard in the S4 prestige)
- nav (standard in the S4 prestige)
- iPod adapter (standard in the S4)
- Logic7 sound (B&O sound is standard in the S4 prestige)
- power rear sunshade

Let just say to make things more equal, remove the sport rear diff in my S4 since the 335i doesn't have LSD. And in the 335i, add 19" wheels (which wasn't available in 2009 M-sport pkg.) and factory installed alarm (standard in the S4). Now these will make the S4 MSRP down to $54,825, and the 335i MSRP up to $55,050 (2010 price). Ok, so the M-sport pkg. in the 335i is not necessary equal in the S4, but it does include the sport seats and black headliner which the S4 has as standard.

[A6.S-line]

An R8 5.2 should be compared to its competitors...Lamborghini Gallardo LP560-4, Ferrari F430.

Go watch Top Gear for a while...if comparing a stripped our Ferrari...they'll bring in a stripped out Lamborghini. If comparing a full interior Ferrari...they'll bring in a full interior Lamborghini. They get it. C&D didn't...(in this instance)

p.s. you're a good writer.

I'd agree that, in an ideal world, an R8 or any other car should be compared to its closest competitors. However, the mags have to rely on what the manufacturers provide to them. And the manufacturers have caught on that providing a top-of-the-line spec of any model is the best strategy to win a comparo, despite the gamble on losing 'value' points. Audi does the same thing: the B8 S4 theoretically starts at 45k but the ones tested in the mags have weighed in at almost 60! Along the same lines, it's not surprising if the only 430 Ferrari provides for these comparos is the Scuderia.

I also have a sneaking suspicion the corporate honchos at Audi don't allow the Gallardo to be tested too often against the R8 V10 [race]

As for TG, they mess up too. I was watching an old episode last week, and they tested a 130i 5dr hatch against a Golf R32. You'd think an A3 3.2 would have been a better comparison. And don't get me started on their biases: decidedly anti-Porsche from JC, and all objectivity goes out the window any time anything remotely British comes in (regardless of how long said marquee has been under foreign ownership). They tested the then-new Aston against a 575 Maranello a few yrs back and literally said the Ferrari was the better car but they'd take the AM because "it was the underdog" (just another way of saying it was the weaker car).

[A6.S-line]

Let just say to make things more equal, remove the sport rear diff in my S4 since the 335i doesn't have LSD. And in the 335i, add 19" wheels (which wasn't available in 2009 M-sport pkg.) and factory installed alarm (standard in the S4). Now these will make the S4 MSRP down to $54,825, and the 335i MSRP up to $55,050 (2010 price). Ok, so the M-sport pkg. in the 335i is not necessary equal in the S4, but it does include the sport seats and black headliner which the S4 has as standard.

It's unclear how the S4 would do without ADS and sport diff (Audi does not provide one without for these comparos - deduce from that what you will).

C&D actually makes a pretty good case for the S4's value:


Forget the Audi's as-tested price of $59,425 and the BMW's $49,320 tab. This story is about how a $50,675 Audi S4 (base price plus the performance-vital ADS but minus all the non-essential luxuries we're assiduously ignoring because we're trained professionals) meets a $48,470 BMW 335i (base price plus the requisite options to match the S4's standard equipment) on virtually equal treads.

So they are within 2k of each other, not 10k as first meets the eye. That small (4%) difference remains, so it's not surprising a few points are awarded to the bimmer (and before anyone else screams more C&D bias, it's certainly possible to have a 335i with the same drivetrain for a lot less: base price plus only the sport package for the sedans, while the sports suspension is standard on the rwd coupes).

[D's Avant]

so...if it weighed the same as say a a B5 S4 you'd have sold your B5 A4 and bought the $55,000 B8? Come on.

p.s. B5 S4 sedan with a manual transmission weighs about 3600lbs. B8 S4 sedan weighs about 3750. The difference is 150lbs...negligible.


Good point... It's a mental thing with me then, I prefer a lighter/tossable car.

With a kid and all their gear I'm hopping for a S4 Avant and in the mean time I'll keep putting the money I would spend on a monthly car payment in savings.

[b6onboost]

see, this remark implies that because he has a B5 A4 that he cannot afford a $55k B8. [rolleyes]

it seems like your logic is if he could afford a $55k B8 he wouldn't still be driving a B5, which is a pretty bad assumption IMHO.


so...if it weighed the same as say a a B5 S4 you'd have sold your B5 A4 and bought the $55,000 B8? Come on.

[Nvius]

Especially since I'm coming from a B5 A4 to an B8 S4.

[fast_audi]

bmw is old compared to the audi . its been in production for 3 years now. This reminds me of the relase of the e92 bmw m3 vs b7 RS4

[L0U]

There has been an explosion of 335 cars lately in my area. Everyone has one in the driveway. 3 on my court alone. I'll be the only S4 at work, and within a 5 mile radius for now. I actually like the old 330 better for looks. When my wife lease runs out, a leased bmw 323 might do the trick. With a set of wheel it looks like the 335, and it gets decent gas mileage, all for dirt cheap payments. 13 months left on that lease.

[NWS4Guy]

There has been an explosion of 335 cars lately in my area. Everyone has one in the driveway. 3 on my court alone. I'll be the only S4 at work, and within a 5 mile radius for now. I actually like the old 330 better for looks. When my wife lease runs out, a leased bmw 323 might do the trick. With a set of wheel it looks like the 335, and it gets decent gas mileage, all for dirt cheap payments. 13 months left on that lease.

I couldn't agree more with this :)

[riegeraudi]

Well you will be guaranteed not many S4's will be around since Audi is only importing 3000 to North America and only 7000 for 2010 worldwide from what I read somewhere.

[L0U]

Well you will be guaranteed not many S4's will be around since Audi is only importing 3000 to North America and only 7000 for 2010 worldwide from what I read somewhere.

wicked....resale values should be better this way.