C&D - S4 takes down 335i anyone have article?

[GrnMtnS4]

word is that the S4 unseated the 335i on another forum...anyone able to scan to PDF? If I get my hands on it will do my best to post it up for everyone

[B6JoeS4]

guess i haven't gotten that issue in the mail yet

[XM_Rocks]

This just in... BMW M3 takes down the Audi A3.

Its like a back handed complement to have the regular lines 3 series compared against the best Audi has to offer. [;)]

[AFizzle87]

This just in... BMW M3 takes down the Audi A3.

Its like a back handed complement to have the regular lines 3 series compared against the best Audi has to offer. [;)]

They are direct competitors...

[L0U]

If you want to find the article...it will be in full flight on the bmw forums, as they all cry about how the M3 is the competitor...oh wait, it may not even win in that comparison either....when ALL areas are considered. I want to see the S4 up against cars 10k more, it might come out the underdog winner.

The defensive crowd is where this is news. Here it is just old hat.

[Alkivar]

so just to get this right the "direct competitors" would be...

S4 vs 335i
S5 vs M3
S6 vs M5

so then where do the RS4/RS5?/RS6 fit?

[WinterRunner]

so just to get this right the "direct competitors" would be...

S4 vs 335i
S5 vs M3
S6 vs M5

so then where do the RS4/RS5?/RS6 fit?

I'd say:

E92 M3 Vs RS5
E90 M3 VS RS4 (B7)
M5 vs C6 RS6
E90 335 vs S4
E92 335i vs S5
550i vs S6
760 vs S8
R8= no competition [up]

[L0U]

Actually, which article would we be talking about. Of the 5 I have read so far this year, they all have the 335 getting beat, 5 out of 5. Do a search on goggle 2010 s4 vs. bmw and you will find lots. most of them are even on the forums, if you do a search as well. Keyword shootout.

[phEight]

so just to get this right the "direct competitors" would be...

S4 vs 335i
S5 vs M3
S6 vs M5

so then where do the RS4/RS5?/RS6 fit?
Those wouldn't be the direct competitors... the M3 has 420hp. The most proper current comparison is an rs4, regardless of how many doors it has. An S5 competes with the 335 coupe.

[GrnMtnS4]

supposedly november car and driver - just interested in reading that is all

[yettavr6]

I'd say:

E92 M3 Vs RS5
E90 M3 VS RS4 (B7)
M5 vs C6 RS6
E90 335 vs S4
E92 335i vs S5
550i vs S6
760 vs S8
R8= no competition [up]

exactamundo [cool]

[Silververtu]

I'd say:

E92 M3 Vs RS5
E90 M3 VS RS4 (B7)
M5 vs C6 RS6
E90 335 vs S4
E92 335i vs S5
550i vs S6
760 vs S8
R8= no competition [up]

Great chart [up]

[riegeraudi]

This just in... BMW M3 takes down the Audi A3.

Its like a back handed complement to have the regular lines 3 series compared against the best Audi has to offer. [;)]

Please get a clue first. As of now you just sound like a clueless BMW fanboy.

323/328 = A4
335i = S4
M3 = RS4

[Bimmerchop]

So what happens when/if the csl comes out [;)]

[riegeraudi]

CSL don't really count in my books as the productions are so limited. They produced only so few that most owners can't even get their hands on one. If if you are in north america don't even bother. I think they only produce like 250-300 cars each year of the M3.
But to answer your question Audi doesn't have a manufacturer equivalent. Only aftermarket for now.
I think when you get into that price range you start looking at other cars.

[Bimmerchop]

Well, imho non-M models should be competing with non-S models and M models to S models. A regular 3er shouldn't be the competitor to the S model. It just so happens that the 335's performance was up there. Oh well, tough. Audi should have stepped up their game then... which they have been doing. In all fairness, a regular 3er should be the competitor for a regular A4

[phEight]

Well, imho non-M models should be competing with non-S models and M models to S models. A regular 3er shouldn't be the competitor to the S model. It just so happens that the 335's performance was up there. Oh well, tough. Audi should have stepped up their game then... which they have been doing. In all fairness, a regular 3er should be the competitor for a regular A4

Um, then what exactly is an RS for? The A4 has no motor that matches the power output for a 335. Just as a 335 is a beefed up 3 series, an S4 is a beefed up A4. An RS4 is a completely different beast, just as an M is a completely different beast.

I never realized this was a complex subject. It seems so awfully simple and common sensical. Even the base prices are in the same ball park. What other criteria do you need to determine competitors? Surely you're not basing judgement off of just letters, so I'm curious why it is you think M models should be competing with S models..

[Bimmerchop]

What's so hard to comprehend...? In my opinion, a regular 3er should be the competitor for a regular A4 and so on. If the A4 has no motor to match the performance of 3er, well then too bad. The 335 is not a beefed up 3er, it's just a regular 3 series with a different motor option just like the 328. It has nothing to do with just a simple letter. If you want to look at a beefed up 3er, then look at the M3. Beefed up 3er = M3, beefed up a4 = S4/RS4.

A regular 3er should be compared to a regular A4 and so on. All of a sudden because Audi couldn't put out something comparable with their non-S cars it changes the gaming field? No, not in my opinion.

[riegeraudi]

What's so hard to comprehend...? In my opinion, a regular 3er should be the competitor for a regular A4 and so on. If the A4 has no motor to match the performance of 3er, well then too bad. The 335 is not a beefed up 3er, it's just a regular 3 series with a different motor option just like the 328. It has nothing to do with just a simple letter. If you want to look at a beefed up 3er, then look at the M3. Beefed up 3er = M3, beefed up a4 = S4/RS4.

A regular 3er should be compared to a regular A4 and so on. All of a sudden because Audi couldn't put out something comparable with their non-S cars it changes the gaming field? No, not in my opinion.

Step up step down who cares the point is that the S4 competes with the 335i and just happens to beat it in all the tests so far. Like you said if the 335i can't compete than "too bad".
BMW also has the performance package for the 335i which makes the 3er beefed up as you say and that has 326hp and brake upgrades and other performance upgrades if you like. That car may compete better but the fact is that the new S4 is just newer and better at the current time. In two years the new 3er will come out and the battle begins a new. Is that so hard to comprehend?

[Bimmerchop]

BMW's performance package can be comparable to an S-line in certain aspects... but wait, then the we're the fanboys, right? Which is a funny considering how I simply share an opinion, then I get jumped on by those who disagree. An S4 was always compared to an M3 in past generations and it was fine, but yet now it's conveniently changed for whatever reason to suit people's own opinions. Makes a lot of sense to me [rolleyes]

[sakimano]

unfortunately you're arguing semantics of the nomenclature for two different manufacturers who don't get together when assigning names. You're also hanging on to the late 90s/early 2000s when M=AMG=S

Now M=AMG=RS since Audi has built out the Quattro GMBH budget and production.

Audi has stated that the Renn Sport cars are the direct competitors for the M and AMG cars

the S cars are now the competitors for the 'top end' of the BMW 3/5/7 lines and for MB, the 550 engined cars.

the A cars compete with the rest



What's so hard to comprehend...? In my opinion, a regular 3er should be the competitor for a regular A4 and so on. If the A4 has no motor to match the performance of 3er, well then too bad. The 335 is not a beefed up 3er, it's just a regular 3 series with a different motor option just like the 328. It has nothing to do with just a simple letter. If you want to look at a beefed up 3er, then look at the M3. Beefed up 3er = M3, beefed up a4 = S4/RS4.

A regular 3er should be compared to a regular A4 and so on. All of a sudden because Audi couldn't put out something comparable with their non-S cars it changes the gaming field? No, not in my opinion.

[Auditude2.0T]

People have to understand just because its a "S4" doesnt mean its a rare low production car. Its the same price as a 335i, has the same power, similar size and similar people drive them. RS Line is meant to compete with //M and AMG not S Line.

335 is similar price to S4/S5
550 is similar price to S6
760 is similar price to S8

In some cases the BMW costs more!

[Auditude2.0T]

unfortunately you're arguing semantics of the nomenclature for two different manufacturers who don't get together when assigning names. You're also hanging on to the late 90s/early 2000s when M=AMG=S

Now M=AMG=RS since Audi has built out the Quattro GMBH budget and production.

Audi has stated that the Renn Sport cars are the direct competitors for the M and AMG cars

the S cars are now the competitors for the 'top end' of the BMW 3/5/7 lines and for MB, the 550 engined cars.

the A cars compete with the rest

Completely agree. [up]

Is it just me but the same way you cant tell a 328 apart from a 335, you cant really tell an A4 S Line from an S4 both b7 and b8 platforms.

[Auditude2.0T]

A4 Sline:
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_ui7gNEWfDzk/Sce-VUkKIjI/AAAAAAAAAAs/T67ZWLR7UKQ/s400/hrtytr.JPG
S4:
http://www.stoth.com/wp-content/plugins/wp-o-matic/cache/e916b_10s4_01_hrgb_opt.jpg

Its almost identical down to the wheels.. The S4 is pretty much an A4 with better performance. the same way a 335 is a 328 with better performance.

[Auditude2.0T]

I just built to similarly packaged out 2010 cars.
1) 2010 Audi S4 6PSPD nicely equiped= $51,125.00
2) 2010 BMW 335i X Drive M Sport similarly equipped- $53,900.00

[riegeraudi]

BMW's performance package can be comparable to an S-line in certain aspects... but wait, then the we're the fanboys, right? Which is a funny considering how I simply share an opinion, then I get jumped on by those who disagree. An S4 was always compared to an M3 in past generations and it was fine, but yet now it's conveniently changed for whatever reason to suit people's own opinions. Makes a lot of sense to me [rolleyes]

No you are no longer just a fanboy, you are now upgraded to undeniably dense. Are you telling me a base S4 at $47,000 is to compete with a M3 at $59,000 and not the 335ix sedan at $44,000? If you fail even to look at the facts of just the pricing alone then that is your problem. In the past the S4 was priced to compete with the M3 but audi has repriced the car to compete with the 3er and not the M, and that is a fact. Not an opinion like yours. Opnions should still make sense or you will get called out.
If BMW can't upgrade the brakes, interior, and other technological items to make it competitive with the similiar priced S4 than that is their problem.
Like I said don't worry it probably is only two years away before the new 3 and Bungle is out so probably a better looking 3 is on the way for you.

[Bimmerchop]

unfortunately you're arguing semantics of the nomenclature for two different manufacturers who don't get together when assigning names. You're also hanging on to the late 90s/early 2000s when M=AMG=S

Now M=AMG=RS since Audi has built out the Quattro GMBH budget and production.

Audi has stated that the Renn Sport cars are the direct competitors for the M and AMG cars

the S cars are now the competitors for the 'top end' of the BMW 3/5/7 lines and for MB, the 550 engined cars.

the A cars compete with the rest
I'm not arguing anything, I simply stated my opinion on the matter, that was all. You yourself admit that in past generations M=AMG=S. I'm basing my opinion on that. I wasn't aware that Audi actually came out and stated that the S cars are no longer competitors for M/AMG models, if that's the case, than so be it. [up]


People have to understand just because its a "S4" doesnt mean its a rare low production car. Its the same price as a 335i, has the same power, similar size and similar people drive them. RS Line is meant to compete with //M and AMG not S Line.

335 is similar price to S4/S5
550 is similar price to S6
760 is similar price to S8

In some cases the BMW costs more!

And the M3 is a rare low production car? And BMW usually always prices their cars slightly higher than Audi, nothing new there, that's why I didn't consider it.

[Bimmerchop]

No you are no longer just a fanboy, you are now upgraded to undeniably dense. Are you telling me a base S4 at $47,000 is to compete with a M3 at $59,000 and not the 335ix sedan at $44,000? If you fail even to look at the facts of just the pricing alone then that is your problem. In the past the S4 was priced to compete with the M3 but audi has repriced the car to compete with the 3er and not the M, and that is a fact. Not an opinion like yours. An opinion on this matter with out a fact is either a fanboy opinion or you just have rocks in your head.

Right, I who have owned and appreciated both car makes am the fanboy, not the die hard Audi enthusiast who gets defensive and jumps down others throats with immature attacks simply because they don't see eye to eye.

Pricing never even crossed my mind considering it was never an issue in the past. BMW has always priced most of their vehicles slightly higher than Audi. You want to look at facts, look at them then. In the past, S models have always been the competitors for M models... FACT. Excuse me for basing my thoughts on that. If I had known Audi had stated that their recent lineup of S cars would no longer be competitors for M/AMG, than I wouldn't have held this opinion. And yet BMW drivers are the ones who are pricks, right? There's quality members like sakimano and Auditude2.0T who know how to have a calm discussion, then assholes like you who just know how to through insults when they disagree. Every forum has them...

[KiloByte]

I'm not arguing anything, I simply stated my opinion on the matter, that was all.

7 posts in this thread already but nah you're not arguing, just boldly stating your "opinion" over and over.

[Bimmerchop]

7 posts in this thread already but nah you're not arguing, just boldly stating your "opinion" over and over.I don't know about you, but when I personally get attacked, I tend to respond. From the beginning, I stated that it was just my opinion, go back and re-read it.

[riegeraudi]

Right, I who have owned and appreciated both car makes am the fanboy, not the die hard Audi enthusiast who gets defensive and jumps down others throats with immature attacks simply because they don't see eye to eye.

Pricing never even crossed my mind considering it was never an issue in the past. BMW has always priced most of their vehicles slightly higher than Audi. You want to look at facts, look at them then. In the past, S models have always been the competitors for M models... FACT. Excuse me for basing my thoughts on that. If I had known Audi had stated that their recent lineup of S cars would no longer be competitors for M/AMG, than I wouldn't have held this opinion. And yet BMW drivers are the ones who are pricks, right? There's quality members like sakimano and Auditude2.0T who know how to have a calm discussion, then assholes like you who just know how to through insults when they disagree. Every forum has them...

What do you think would happen if I go on to a BMW forum and tell them the S4 competes with the M3 and there are no competitors for the RS4 based on past facts and I repeat this several times even though everyone tells me I am wrong? Same results that you are getting so don't call me an ass when you are the one who is being difficult and hasn't done the research first before stating an OPINION that is clearly wrong.

[riegeraudi]

I don't know about you, but when I personally get attacked, I tend to respond. From the beginning, I stated that it was just my opinion, go back and re-read it.

Just because you state it is an OPINION doesn't exclude you from the facts of the matter either. Better yet why don't you state this opinion on the M3 forums that the S4 competes with the M3 and see how they treat you. Bet you much more hostile than I.

[Bimmerchop]

What do you think would happen if I go on to a BMW forum and tell them the S4 competes with the M3 and there are no competitors for the RS4 based on past facts and I repeat this several times even though everyone tells me I am wrong? Same results that you are getting so don't call me an ass when you are the one who is being difficult and hasn't done the research first before stating an OPINION that is clearly wrong.

Like I said, every forum has them. Sure you'll get some dick responses on a BMW forum. However, not all members respond that way. There is a difference between being an ass and having a discussion. I wasn't rude, there was no reason for you to jump at me when you could have simply stated that Audi has pulled the S cars as M/AMG competitors. You asked me why I thought the way I did, so I told you. I can't really blame anyone for being an ass though, we all have our bad days lol. No harm, no foul [:)]


Just because you state it is an OPINION doesn't exclude you from the facts of the matter either.
I never said it did or that it should, but no one until sakimano told me the facts as to why S cars no longer compete with M cars. I just got replies basically saying that my opinion is wrong... okay, that didn't reveal much of anything considering no one gave me a valid reason. My opinions were based on passed facts. I wasn't aware of the change, and if someone clearly stated that from the beginning, then all this could have been avoided. I wasn't looking to start an argument, but things got out of hand. However, I'm not the only that had part in it.

[Bimmerchop]

Better yet why don't you state this opinion on the M3 forums that the S4 competes with the M3 and see how they treat you. Bet you much more hostile than I.

Its funny you say that though, on BMW forums I find myself defending Audi, and vice versa on Audi forums lol

[riegeraudi]

Like I said, every forum has them. Sure you'll get some dick responses on a BMW forum. However, not all members respond that way. There is a difference between being an ass and having a discussion. I wasn't rude, there was no reason for you to jump at me when you could have simply stated that Audi has pulled the S cars as M/AMG competitors. You asked me why I thought the way I did, so I told you. I can't really blame anyone for being an ass though, we all have our bad days lol. No harm, no foul [:)]


I never said it did or that it should, but no one until sakimano told me the facts as to why S cars no longer compete with M cars. I just got replies basically saying that my opinion is wrong... okay, that didn't reveal much of anything considering no one gave me a valid reason. My opinions were based on passed facts. I wasn't aware of the change, and if someone clearly stated that from the beginning, then all this could have been avoided. I wasn't looking to start an argument, but things got out of hand. However, I'm not the only that had part in it.

No problem but too many people on forums who refused to look at the facts and give the fanboy opinions. That really gets me riled up. I think the fanboy remark though at first was aimed at xm-rocks.
I think you didn't also read pheight's post #17 where he indicated early in the discussion that the price of the 335i = S4, hence the comparison of the S4 vs 335i. Anyways I think you need to becareful not to hide behind the word opinion in any forums or you will run into assholes like me. [:D]
Anyways no harm no foul like you say.
Good day

[sakimano]

I'm not arguing anything, I simply stated my opinion on the matter, that was all. You yourself admit that in past generations M=AMG=S. I'm basing my opinion on that. I wasn't aware that Audi actually came out and stated that the S cars are no longer competitors for M/AMG models, if that's the case, than so be it. [up]
.

the word argue is often taken badly. To make an argument in my dictionary is to form your points and supporting evidence to back up a thesis. [up]

You and I are just used to the good old s/m/amg days...but Audi threw a wrench into the mix with the success of the RS cars.

Personally I think they should abandon the RS name...and just call the RS cars S. RS4/5/6 = S4/5/6

Make the S4 the A4 3.0T...make the S6 the A6 5.2...make the S5 the A5 3.0T

By name, the current Audi lineup seems to have two different sport lines (S+RS) fighting their competitors...but when it comes down to numbers/money/performance...it's not the case.

[sakimano]

So what happens when/if the csl comes out [;)]

That thing is insanely fast but un-user-friendly as a 'car'...it's very purpose built but you wouldn't want to own one for daily use. A friend has one in Europe and he loves it and hates it (obviously loves performance/looks...hates the lack of comforts).

As for 'what will happen when the CSL comes out'...Audi is also considering an ultralight. They're toying around with an A5 that has an aluminium space frame to save a few hundred pounds. I'd bet that we'll see them make an RS5 with the RS4/R8 4.2 FSI engine tuned to about 460hp...and then a limited run RS5 CSL...one that weighs about 3400 lbs. That would be insane.

They've already stated that in the future, all of the cars will be ASF based...launching the ASF in an RS sedan would be a nice introduction to the big volume models (unlike the A8/TT/R8).

[sleeperwagon]

man what a BMW/Audi pissing post but I like it. Audi FINALLY got it right this year, by pricing the S4/S5 inline w/ the 335i. RS-X competes with M-X. As long as we (Audi posters) do not start the "s4 beats M3" trash talk BMW will start to get it. I bleed M3 but drive Audi's now for many reasons (another story).
I applaud Audi this year but Audi is still too conservative (like Auditude 2.0 proved), with styling and went to SC vs. Turbo b/c of production and maintenance costs. From a business decision it was a great one. For us that like blowing money on Mods, we dislike it.
Sakimano makes a great point above. Great idea. And who is the jackass in Audi's Marketing depart that put the 3.0T emblem on the side of the supercharged S4? What does "T" stand for? Turbo?

It will take the BMW Forums about a year to figure this out b/c they hate to lose but go to an Audi dealership and see how many 3,5,7 series cars are being traded in on new Audi's.
Audi is, slowly, taking BMW owners over to the 4 rings.

[HobbesA5]

And who is the jackass in Audi's Marketing depart that put the 3.0T emblem on the side of the supercharged S4? What does "T" stand for? Turbo?
"Thupercharged".

Audi has stated that "T" is just their nomenclature for all forced induction engines.

[Bimmerchop]

That thing is insanely fast but un-user-friendly as a 'car'...it's very purpose built but you wouldn't want to own one for daily use. A friend has one in Europe and he loves it and hates it (obviously loves performance/looks...hates the lack of comforts).

As for 'what will happen when the CSL comes out'...Audi is also considering an ultralight. They're toying around with an A5 that has an aluminium space frame to save a few hundred pounds. I'd bet that we'll see them make an RS5 with the RS4/R8 4.2 FSI engine tuned to about 460hp...and then a limited run RS5 CSL...one that weighs about 3400 lbs. That would be insane.

They've already stated that in the future, all of the cars will be ASF based...launching the ASF in an RS sedan would be a nice introduction to the big volume models (unlike the A8/TT/R8).
Yup, the CSL can definitely be impractical for a DD. If Audi could put out a nice lightweight RS vehicles using the ASF, that would just be the icing on the cake

[Sharkfin]

I'd bet that we'll see them make an RS5 with the RS4/R8 4.2 FSI engine tuned to about 460hp...and then a limited run RS5 CSL...one that weighs about 3400 lbs. That would be insane.


If they did that, it would be so awesome. That would beat the M3 and the M5 on sheer awesomeness

[sakimano]

And who is the jackass in Audi's Marketing depart that put the 3.0T emblem on the side of the supercharged S4? What does "T" stand for? Turbo?

Audi says the T in their nomenclature denotes a forced induction engine. They use both Superchargers ('Kompressor' in German) and Turbochargers (Turbo in German). This causes a problem.

Should the new S4 be called the S4 3.0K?

"how's the new car?"
"mmm...it's 0K"

And in North America, the S4 3.0S?

T across the board works for me.

[sakimano]

It will take the BMW Forums about a year to figure this out b/c they hate to lose but go to an Audi dealership and see how many 3,5,7 series cars are being traded in on new Audi's.
Audi is, slowly, taking BMW owners over to the 4 rings.

Actually there was a 15 page thread on E90 post about the S4 crushing the 335, and the pricing being the same. They were freaking out. Lots of "hindsight being 20/20, I fucked up buying this 335"

I was surprised at how humble they were!

It's funny because their standard response is usually 'yeah, but I'll chip the 335 and walk your V8 S4' but they can't say that anymore with the MTM and ABT chips producing 430+hp on the S4. One guy did, and all the other guys attacked him for being a moron!

[Sharkfin]

Actually there was a 15 page thread on E90 post about the S4 crushing the 335, and the pricing being the same. They were freaking out. Lots of "hindsight being 20/20, I fucked up buying this 335"

I was surprised at how humble they were!

It's funny because their standard response is usually 'yeah, but I'll chip the 335 and walk your V8 S4' but they can't say that anymore with the MTM and ABT chips producing 430+hp on the S4! One guy did, and all the other guys attacked him for being a moron!

Post that ASAP [hail]

[L0U]

http://forums.quattroworld.com/s4b8/msgs/2697.phtml

this spells it out fairly well. The S4 has turned into the s-line really. it is the high production, low cost option for a sporty a4. The s-line 2litre is just a way to charge more, like having an optioned out 328. The S4 will be a hopped up 2 litre in the future....this should get more buyin that the car is just a better A4.

oh, and the article is in the crapper stall at work, getting lots of reads. Saddly once in the can, it stays in the can. Looks pretty worn out after 1 day.

[Keith@APR]

Reading the article in about 2 hours. No scanner at home, sorry guys. If noone has it up tomorrow morning, I'll do it then.

[qu@ttr0]

I was surprised at how humble they were!

It's funny because their standard response is usually 'yeah, but I'll chip the 335 and walk your V8 S4' but they can't say that anymore with the MTM and ABT chips producing 430+hp on the S4. One guy did, and all the other guys attacked him for being a moron!

Here is a humble post from a M3 owner http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4556630&postcount=92

Hope you would be humble as well as any car could be tuned to be fast. S4 comes out with MTM, 335i comes out with Meth, bigger turbo kit (HPF is working on it), S4 with turbo upgrade, etc You'll get the point. Here is a vid a jb3+meth running with a 997 GT-3 RS
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A2960ixDJ5M&feature=player_embedded

Be humble and enjoy your ride!

[Sharkfin]

http://forums.quattroworld.com/s4b8/msgs/2697.phtml

this spells it out fairly well. The S4 has turned into the s-line really. it is the high production, low cost option for a sporty a4. The s-line 2litre is just a way to charge more, like having an optioned out 328. The S4 will be a hopped up 2 litre in the future....this should get more buyin that the car is just a better A4.

oh, and the article is in the crapper stall at work, getting lots of reads. Saddly once in the can, it stays in the can. Looks pretty worn out after 1 day.

Nice find, it's kinda funny that Ben at University Audi (who has scammed and lied to members on here) is a advertiser on there.

[riegeraudi]

Reading the article in about 2 hours. No scanner at home, sorry guys. If noone has it up tomorrow morning, I'll do it then.

please scan it I am dying to read it. Went to a few stores to see if it is available an nothing. I guess subscribers get it first.

[Keith@APR]

http://www.goapr.com/news/wp-content/uploads/2009/09/cnd335vss4_Page_1.jpg
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http://www.goapr.com/news/wp-content/uploads/2009/09/cnd335vss4_Page_6.jpg

[Keith@APR]

sorry for the sucky quality but you get the idea.

[riegeraudi]

Thanks keith! Hey you guys have any est. on when the S4 chip will be released?

[Sharkfin]

thanks so much for scanning that! [hail]

[riegeraudi]

In the side notes they say the X-drive is faster but in all other magazines that tested the x-drive vs S4 have been much slower. I think in most European magazines the 335i has be much slower than the C&D results, what gives? I think C&D was trying to limit the damage here to the BMW.
The best line I think was" The bmw 335i always enticing you to push harder - but in the unflappable Audi you actually can."

[GrnMtnS4]

Keith - no need to apologize, Great Job! After some interesting posts to say the least someone has finally answered the call. Thanks!

Cheers,
Brad

[valis]

Many thanks Keith! It's only making the wait hurt a little less.

[riegeraudi]

Many thanks Keith! It's only making the wait hurt a little less.

A little less? I'm thinking a little more since it makes me want to drive the sucker so bad. I'm on these damn forums so often just to hurt myself but can't help it. Then I see people who lower their rides and change the rims etc. The best part is still to come though when APR and Giac release their chips!
Hey Keith are you trying to avoid my question on the S4 chip time frame?

[Keith@APR]

Hey Keith are you trying to avoid my question on the S4 chip time frame?

yes

[Auditude2.0T]

yes

lol straight forward as can be haha

[joung300]

I own a 335i and a b8 a4 and definitely prefer the exterior and interior design of my Audi.
The power delivery and driving dynamics are better on the 335i.

I got a chance to drive the new s4 last week. I have to say, other than subtle cues like the emblems and rims, there isn't much to distinguish between the a4 and s4. I loved the seats on the s4 and the ride quality was good, firm but comfortable. I didn't drive the s4 very hard but overall it seemed well-mannered on the relatively bad roads near the dealership. Engine sounds great but is a bit muted compared to the 335i's.

[sakimano]

Here is a humble post from a M3 owner http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4556630&postcount=92

Hope you would be humble as well as any car could be tuned to be fast. S4 comes out with MTM, 335i comes out with Meth, bigger turbo kit (HPF is working on it), S4 with turbo upgrade, etc You'll get the point. Here is a vid a jb3+meth running with a 997 GT-3 RS
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A2960ixDJ5M&feature=player_embedded

Be humble and enjoy your ride!


exactly the kind of humble pie eating response by a BMW owner that I was referring to. We're the douches of the industry now...they've grown up [:D]

[sakimano]

oh...found the article I was referring to on the aluminium space frame A5

2900 pounds!!!


Boxberg, Germany - Several months ago, Audi AG Board member Michael Dick made headlines by suggesting that the next generation of Audi S5 and S4 would likely feature an aluminum Audi Space Frame (ASF) and be powered by four-cylinder turbocharged engines. This comment to a French car magazine made the rounds of blogs and magazine websites in rapid fashion. No surprise – Dick is head of Audi development and, if there is something new in the pipeline, his hands would definitely have touched such a vehicle.
http://www.fourtitude.com/news/uploads/Features/a5_lightweight.jpg

Fast forward a few months. I’m standing on a broad swathe of tarmac somewhere near Boxberg Germany and enjoying the warm September sunlight. The day is perfect and not just because we’re currently in the middle of a vast automotive test facility owned and operated by Bosch. In the last five minutes, I’ve seen test mules for the next generation Audi A8, BMW 5 Series and a Land Rover Defender bodied who-knows-what that may or may not be a Spyker Peking to Paris underneath. Considering the environment, this day could be memorable enough on its own, but it’s about to get even better. As part of a conference on lightweight production I’m about to touch a vehicle very much like the future S-car Michael Dick mentioned to some French journalist over croissants.



Well, to be fair, this isn’t a next-generation Audi S5 or S4… but it might as well be. You see, the white coupe sitting before me features an aluminum space frame, carbon fiber reinforced plastic (CFP) hood and countless other weight saving measures Audi expects to put into production in the near future though details of which they’re not offering up to my gratuitous interrogatives. Beyond these key details, all they’ll say is that the lighter weight of the car’s superstructure allows even further ‘downsizing’ of weight in components such as the transmission and other chassis elements.

The car is, as Michael Dick alluded of future S-cars, powered by a 2.0T. The engine has been tuned to 211 hp for the purposes of this test. Power to the ground is from a 6-speed manual transmission mated to quattro all-wheel drive.



Here’s the odd part. On paper, except maybe the power levels, this car looks suspiciously like the future S-car to which Audi’s illustrious board member alluded. In the alloy though, the two-door appears nearly identical to any current A5 S-line you might encounter on the road save a few very minor details. A quick scan of the car as I approach notes only two real discernable differences. It’s got S5-like quad tailpipes and valance and A5 19-inch wheels with carbon fiber inserts. I’d guess this car could and possibly does drive down German streets and Autobahns without being noticed by even the most trained eyes.

FIGURE 1: SAMPLE WEIGHT TO POWER RATIOS
A5 Lightweight Coupe Prototype (As Tested) – 13.69 lbs./hp
A5 Lightweight Coupe Prototype (Estimated with Factory 265hp 2.0T from TTS) – 10.90 lbs./hp
A5 Lightweight Coupe Prototype (Estimated with APR Stage III Upgrade 375hp) – 7.70 lbs./hp
A5 3.2 S-line – 12.81 lbs./hp
R8 4.2 MT6 – 8.58 lbs/hp


So-equipped, this A5 lightweight coupe prototype that sits before us reportedly weighs in at 2,888 lbs. Considering the specs, that makes this prototype’s weight-to-power ratio 13.69 lbs./hp (Figure 1). It’s an impressive number and actually one that’s been admittedly dialed back. Imagining the car with power figures consistent with 2.0T Stage III upgrades available in today’s aftermarket even boosts the car beyond the vaunted R8, a number that is candy for the imagination.



So why did Audi go with a lower power figure? Their staff has set up an experiment for us today involving a bone stock A5 3.2 quattro that will be driven back-to-back on one of the many Boxberg test courses in order to actually feel the difference of this so-called ‘downsizing’, though the size is identical and it’s only weight that has dropped.

Both cars are equipped with a manual transmission and quattro permanent all-wheel drive. The production model has a powerful 3.2 liter V6 with 195 kW (265 hp) under the hood. The 3.2 is rated at 265 hp and weighs 3,395 lbs., giving it a better weight ratio of 12.81 lbs./hp. From a power perspective, the stock, steel-bodied A5 3.2 has a slight edge.



I first climb in to the red A5 3.2 for a quick refresher on this particular spec A5’s handling and to learn the chosen Boxberg test loop. I’m following an Audi test driver in a TTRS and am tasked with keeping pace. Setting the car’s Audi Drive Select on ‘Dynamic’, I quickly give chase.

The course is short, but provides a great selection of short straights and corners. The beginning is a long, sweeping straight that curves around to the right, followed by normal corners and bends, a quick change in elevation that drops off and then some very tight mountain pass-like bends followed by another final straight. Most of the course can be done in second gear save the bends (1st gear) and the final straight (3rd gear so you don’t look like a hoodlum when you approach the staging area).

Two laps behind the TTRS and I’m getting a feel for the course. Two hotter laps in the 3.2 and I’m familiarized with the physics of the 3.2. It’s time to swap cars and jump into the lightweight prototype.



Once inside, the car appears no different than any other A5 I’ve driven. The interior seems to be full production. I depress the starter button and the engine fires to life. The car seems even more unremarkably production inside as the TTRS leads us back out onto the track.

The weight and power equation may be on the side of the 3.2 for acceleration but I don’t notice this at all as we throttle out onto the course. The immediate torque delivery of the 2.0T makes this lightweight prototype pick up speed with much more urgency.

There’s a hint of less roll in the first sweeper. In the bends, this A5 feels light on its feet, like a TT coupe and possibly even more so. The quick dip on the course also makes the car feel lighter, seeming to hang a bit more in the air before settling its lesser mass onto the tires. In the tight first gear corners it is most obvious why Audi chose this test course. The agility difference between the 3.2 and this car is most radical here.



Of course, handling and acceleration performance aren’t the only benefits of this so-called downsizing. Audi states that for every 100 kilograms (220.46 lbs) saved in weight reduces fuel consumption by 1.3 to 2.1 gallons per 100 miles driven.

Two laps of this Boxberg test course are completed all too quickly, though I’m left highly impressed. Without having spotted the carbon fiber on the wheels or especially having driven it, I’d have had an extremely hard time telling this A5 apart from any other I might encounter in the wild. Of course, Audi knows that so-called ‘downsizing’ is the direction needed for a changing world where fuel and power resource are a more expensive commodity. It’s also very obvious that the company intends to use this downsizing as an advantage and not a disadvantage. If cars like this A5 lightweight prototype are the measure, the size, look and feel of the car could very well be unchanged though the performance should be even better.

[youyou]

Ok so am i downgrading if i'm changing my 2008 M3 Convertible for an 2010 S5 Convertible?
Power wise it might be a little slower ( or alot since i haven't driven it ? ) but besides that i don't really see it as downgrading.
Opinions are definitely welcome

[blu04srt4]

Maybe i'm missing something in that article. They said they didnt want to use the AWD 335 cause of the added weight and the fun factor of the RWD. The weight distribution would have been about equal in the two cars if both had AWD, which would have made the test more accurate considering the S4 only comes in AWD. Anyway, i'm still going to get the S4 next year when i get back from Iraq. That car looks better than the 335 to me.

[L0U]

so just what did the 335 do better. I think they were reaching here.
bmw had better, driver comfort, rebates, price, performance? thats 7 points worth.
audi had better, ergos, rear seat comfort, features, interior style, exterior style, 1/4 mile, transmission, brake feel, handling, got to have it, fun to ride. thats 13 points worth.

had they used a properly equiped 335xi, the price would have not been 4 points, and the performance would have been minus 1.

It would have been an across the board blowout if the test was apples to apples. The best case scenario car was put up, and was soundly beaten. Can you imagine the trashing if the S4 had a rear wheel drive option...200 pounds weight reduction, better hp efficiency to the wheels, better braking, better price.

The rational for using the 335i vs. x in the story is telling.
-the 335 over the 335x has 200 pounds less weight and 2% better weight distribution, 1" lower ride height with tuned sport shocks...less body roll, oh and 2000 dollars cheaper.

So stack the deck a bit? I am also puzzled how bmw won the performance category. They deffinitely were grasping at straws to offer up points to the driver comfy bmw...lol harsh as hell ride contradiction.

[blu04srt4]

so just what did the 335 do better. I think they were reaching here.
bmw had better, driver comfort, rebates, price, performance? thats 7 points worth.
audi had better, ergos, rear seat comfort, features, interior style, exterior style, 1/4 mile, transmission, brake feel, handling, got to have it, fun to ride. thats 13 points worth.

had they used a properly equiped 335xi, the price would have not been 4 points, and the performance would have been minus 1.

It would have been an across the board blowout if the test was apples to apples. The best case scenario car was put up, and was soundly beaten. Can you imagine the trashing if the S4 had a rear wheel drive option...200 pounds weight reduction, better hp efficiency to the wheels, better braking, better price.

The rational for using the 335i vs. x in the story is telling.
-the 335 over the 335x has 200 pounds less weight and 2% better weight distribution, 1" lower ride height with tuned sport shocks...less body roll, oh and 2000 dollars cheaper.

So stack the deck a bit? I am also puzzled how bmw won the performance category. They deffinitely were grasping at straws to offer up points to the driver comfy bmw...lol harsh as hell ride contradiction.
I completely agree. They didnt want to hurt the BMWs sales too much, but that S4 is the truth. It is exactly what i am looking for. I was SOLD on the 335 till i heard about the S4. I cannot wait to get mine.

[GrnMtnS4]

blu04srt4
Thanks for your service - good luck getting your S4. Come home safe!

Cheers,
Brad

[NWS4Guy]

Nice find, it's kinda funny that Ben at University Audi (who has scammed and lied to members on here) is a advertiser on there.

I'd be interested in what he has done, I was working with him many months ago, but when he told me all I could get for my excellent condition '05 G35 coupe with the 6MT sports package was $12K trade in (because I was getting Audi Supplier pricing was my suspicion) I walked.

[miraclewhip]

i own a 335xi.. i love it.. but i am also kicking myself right now.. lol

[riegeraudi]

i own a 335xi.. i love it.. but i am also kicking myself right now.. lol

Why did you get the DCT or you have problems with your 335xi? If not consider yourself lucky as I have read many problems with the 335. Even though beaten by the S4, the 335ix is still a great car enjoy it until you trade it in. Then maybe you can get the S4 if BMW doesn't step up to the plate with the next 3er in about a year. What I am hearing from the BMW though is that the very least they are solving the electrical gremlins and not sure about the rest. I think with MB c-class coming on and the A4/S4 sales picking up they will reduce margins to maintain market share and they will accomplish this by improving quality and performance.

[L0U]

I'd be interested in what he has done, I was working with him many months ago, but when he told me all I could get for my excellent condition '05 G35 coupe with the 6MT sports package was $12K trade in (because I was getting Audi Supplier pricing was my suspicion) I walked.

I did a trade with the same audi supplier pricing, different dealership, and did ok for the trade. 2006 FX45 with our 13% tax it cut 33,600 off the discounted price. (selling it private might have been tuff to get 34k) Definitely a difference in treatment.

[blu04srt4]

blu04srt4
Thanks for your service - good luck getting your S4. Come home safe!

Cheers,
Brad

Thanks man. I appreciate the support.I cant wait to get my S4!

[sakimano]

LOU-great analysis of the article

unfortunately to compare the 335ix (or xi?) the car can't be ordered with a sport package...thus it's basically a useless sports sedan with awful mushy monster truck suspension and horrible wheels/tires.

When you get a 335i with the M-sport package, you get a much more fair comparison for an automotive enthusiasts magazine comparison. The M-sport package vs. the Xdrive upgrade isn't much of a difference in price, so they're not really sandbagging...it's just a tough comparo.

The real bottom line is that the S4 has thumped the piss out of the 335 in all forms in all comparisons so far. That's more telling than maybe wishing the S4 could thunderpump the 335ix again.

Have you taken delivery of your Ibis white car yet? Let's get together and compare the B7 to the B8!

[equ]

Despite the slant, s4 takes the cake. Even as a longtime bmw fan, I think the difference is far greater though. What's up with the 4000lb curb weight though? I thought it was 3650-3700lbs or so.

[Bimmerchop]

oh...found the article I was referring to on the aluminium space frame A5

2900 pounds!!!

Pure awesomeness [cool]

[thewusman]

Something smells fishy with the results they got on the in-gear accel. times in that article.

There is no ways the 335i thumps the S4 by such a large margin - 2 other tests I've seen have the S4 considerably better.

Thoughts ?

[SpeedETC]

What's up with the 4000lb curb weight though? I thought it was 3650-3700lbs or so.

I was thinking the same. The literature I have seen from Audi had a bit over 3600 lbs. If the 4000 lbs is true it is definitely time to implement the space frame!!

[blu04srt4]

I'm surprised that Audi would put out a performance sedan that weighs so much. It still performs really well considering how much it weighs. With all the safety regulations i'm sure that its hard to keep the weight down.

[L0U]

Something smells fishy with the results they got on the in-gear accel. times in that article.

There is no ways the 335i thumps the S4 by such a large margin - 2 other tests I've seen have the S4 considerably better.

Thoughts ?

The roll on performance does seem fishy. This is where the torque of the charger at low rpms should have the edge. At first glance i was thinking the 7-speed top gear is extreme tall, but they were both 6 speeds. In fact the S4 6th has the acceleration advantage of the bimmers. I wouldn't doubt if the results are reverse, and were input incorrectly. All reports of in car feel, say the S4 has more bottom end pull than the M3, RS4, and 335, so this does not add up.

On the plus side. This is one of the best cruising DB levels in the industry. 64db at 70mph is very quiet, as well as the idle of 37...is the car running type levels. I wanted sports, but also luxury, and the ads on soft with that low noise will be the ultimate cruiser.

[SpeedETC]

Just checked the Audi site. The curb weight now shows as 3847 lbs. Not 4000, but not the 3600+ that was original reported.

[valis]

My car just hit port. It's so close I can taste it.

[equ]

I see the 3847 as well now. Somehow firefox was choking on audiusa and the weight in in drivetrain & steering (someone pointed me in the right direction in another forum). What I had done was go to audi.de or audi.co.uk and convert, this ended up around 3600-3700lbs. Wow, 3850 is really heavy.

[swifty]

Yea cars are always heavier by atleast 100 Lbs in comparison to cars in Europe due to extra airbags and other frontend treatments for crash test etc...but still, 3800 Lbs is a lot of weight

[mebcoder]

The 335i is an incredibly well handling car, fast, and easy to tune.
The B8 S4 is, apparently, a fast and well appointed 4000 lb car that also handles well and is... easy to tune? We hope.
Read the actual review please, the lane changes and 30-50 etc acceleration figures do not favor the S4; yet it wins. Huh.

Drive them both - I will. The review does not tell you all you may need to know.
Just don't think you will be walking many 335i's!

[mebcoder]

Close, huh...? Gotta drive the new S4, I guess, but I'm not "wowed"yet.
skid pad?
30-50?
50-70?
Lane change?

So On Saturday I got my new Nov 2009 CarAndDriver in the mail and it has a comparison test on the Audi S4 Quattro 6-speed manual vs the BMW 335i Sedan also in 6-speed Manual.

2nd Place went to the BMW 335i Sport.

Highs: Drives like a sports car in a large box, that solid BMW thunk to everything, vibe-free to 7000 rpm.

Lows: Lacks the Audi's grip, tighter back seat, aging and ready for its reboot.

Verdict: it taught the competitors what a sports sedan should be. They learned.

1st Place, Audi S4 Quattro.

Highs: As planted as a giant sequioa, Torque-vectoring diff feels like rear-wheel steering, rumble from the rump pipes.

Lows: Heavier, interior plainness, option it carefully or it gets expensive.

Verdict: An often also-ran finally ties up the loose ends.

performance stats:
BMW/Audi

0-60: 4.9/4.9
0-100: 12.1/12.0
1-140: 27.1/26.4
1/4 Mile: 13.6@105mph/13.4@106
rolling 5-60: 5.8/5.6
30-50: 7.9/8.9
50-70: 6.3/7.5
Sound Dba @ 70mph: 67/64
MPG in 550 miles: 18/17
Braking from 70-0: 165ft/167ft
Skidpad: 0.95g/0.93g
Lane change: 62.1mph/60.4mph
Weight: 3620lbs/4000lbs
weight distribution front: 50.8/55

Points:
BMW/Audi

Driver comfort: 10/9
Ergonomics: 8/9
Rear seat comfort: 3/4
Rear seat space: 5/5
Trunk space: 5/5
Features: 8/10
Fit and finish: 9/9
Interior Styling: 8/9
Exterior Styling: 8/10
Rebates: 1/0
As tested price: 20/16
1/4 mile Acceleration: 19/20
Flexibility: 3/3
Fuel Econ: 5/5
Engine NVH: 9/9
Transmission: 8/9
Chassis Performance: 20/19
Steering Feel: 5/5
Brake Feel: 4/5
Handling: 9/10
Ride: 9/9
Gotta have it: 23/24
Fun to Drive: 24/25
Total points: 223/229

[sinned]

I like both cars and to be as objective as possible, the title of this thread is misleading. By the numbers that were posted in C&D, it doesn't seem like the S4 "Took Down" the 335i.

[riegeraudi]

The 335i is an incredibly well handling car, fast, and easy to tune.
The B8 S4 is, apparently, a fast and well appointed 4000 lb car that also handles well and is... easy to tune? We hope.
Read the actual review please, the lane changes and 30-50 etc acceleration figures do not favor the S4; yet it wins. Huh.

Drive them both - I will. The review does not tell you all you may need to know.
Just don't think you will be walking many 335i's!

Read the less bias magazines from Europe and you will get a better sense of which one is better. In none of the magazines in Europe has the 335i had a better track time than the S4. Handling feeling wise I will not argue that the 3er feels a little bit better but the fact still remains that the S4 still had lower track times. But I could care less about track times because 9/10 of the time the car will be driven on the road and this is definitely where the S4 outshines the 335i. Feels much more solid qiuet for highway cruising, and much better low end torque for red light to red light racing. Icing on the cake for me is AWD since I live in snow country where 335i's are littered on my city streets in the winter.
I don't think I will walk many 335i's but I think it was about time for Audi to step back up to the plate. The B5 was great but sorry to say this but the B6/B7 was a little lacking in my opinion.
I almost got a 335i myself but some of my friends talked me out of it due to quality issues they were having with the fuel pump. I like the look of the coupe a lot but the sedans look like cr@p because the rear quarter looks korean to me.

[ibiski]

By the numbers that were posted in C&D, it doesn't seem like the S4 "Took Down" the 335i.

I agree and considering the fact that the 335 came out 4 years earlier than the B8 S4, I'm not overwhelmingly impressed, though if I had to choose, I'd opt for the Audi.

[L0U]

the roll on numbers might not be correct. I have seen the same tests show the exact opposite results from these 2 cars. Looking at the figures, the rational reason is that c&d put the figures in the wrong column. Low end acceleration is exactly where the S4 trump the 335. There is no way the S4 loses in a top gear roll on where the revs are that low. I'll link a test that shows the oposite results.

I think car and driver did all they could to mask just how baddly the 335 lost. They iced the cake as best they could giving rediculous points to the 335. Take a look at the categories where the 335 won....4 points for cost, 1 point for extras/discounts.er same thing....1 point for driver comfort? This is grasping if I ever saw it.....then the stuff the S4 won on points.....basically all the rest...cept ties.

http://translate.googleusercontent.com/translate_c?hl=en&sl=de&tl=en&u=http://www.sportauto-online.de/vergleichstest/bmw-335i-gegen-audi-s4-mittelklassen-sechszylinder-im-duell-1037101.html&prev=hp&rurl=translate.google.com&usg=ALkJrhjjSVwEx8m-MWC0x-I5tdNz8f_jZw

[ChescoS6]

I posted this video a few weeks ago in a different thread. An Audi rep explains in the beginning and at around 10:20 how and why Audi has aligned the S4 in line with the 335i. After reading some posts on the first 2 pages of this thread I figured this would shed a little light on the subject. As an Audi enthusiast I like to think of the "S" models as something special but generally I think the motoring public just sees them as an upgrade to base models if they even have a clue at all.




LINK (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jDlWvqbsgQA)

[riegeraudi]

I posted this video a few weeks ago in a different thread. An Audi rep explains in the beginning and at around 11:15 (or 11:55 I forget) how and why Audi has aligned the S4 in line with the 335i. After reading some posts on the first 2 pages of this thread I figured this would shed a little light on the subject. As an Audi enthusiast I like to think of the "S" models as something special but generally I think the motoring public just sees them as an upgrade to base models if they even have a clue at all.


LINK (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5D0tyq0ge-s)

Link doesn't send me to any audi video.

I never looked at the S4 to something different but just an upgraded A4 all along, unlike the RS4 which actually looks different due to differing body panels. The S4 just has better brakes, engine and some other items like shocks etc. and a slightly upgraded interior. It goes a little farther than the 323 to 335i but not so much that the general public can identify.
Heck some are so blind they can't even tell between a two door S5 and a four door S4. LOL ( my wife )

[ChescoS6]

Link fixed Thanks.

[S4Olympics]

Actually there was a 15 page thread on E90 post about the S4 crushing the 335, and the pricing being the same. They were freaking out. Lots of "hindsight being 20/20, I fucked up buying this 335"

I was surprised at how humble they were!

It's funny because their standard response is usually 'yeah, but I'll chip the 335 and walk your V8 S4' but they can't say that anymore with the MTM and ABT chips producing 430+hp on the S4. One guy did, and all the other guys attacked him for being a moron!

Well they can because the chips offered by bmw tunners are far more superior than the ones offered by audi tunners in every aspect (from power, to ease, to reliability).
This is normal though because the 335i has been around since 2007, while the b8 s4 just came out and they already have a chip giving over 380whp (i guess).
The first piggy back for BMW was only giving around 30-40whp so Audi is ahead with that.
The first piggy back was also in the hundreds though not the thousands like Audi's is.
Also, the current piggy backs are offering 80whp not 80-100 crank hp.
I HATE when people post crank hp. lol

Anyway, I don't agree with comparing cars based on mods.
Audi offers more than the 335i does, for much less, so that is how I am comparing the two cars.

I am DYING for a reasonable tune to come out for the S4 though.
(reasonable being $500-$1000 and 50-80RWHP with driver map/boost selections).
I can't wait!

Thank god for capitalism and competition.
When more chips more out, everything will be much better for the S4.

[Error]

I'd say:

E92 M3 Vs RS5
E90 M3 VS RS4 (B7)
M5 vs C6 RS6
E90 335 vs S4
E92 335i vs S5
550i vs S6
760 vs S8
R8= no competition [up]

x2
[>_<]