Just got the lease price for S4

[orlandosk2]

Ok so i just left audi and the price for the car was 54 and some change

They offered me 28k for my 09 a4 prem+

With 5k rolled into the loan and 4000 out of pocket

1165 per month 36 month lease with 12k per year

what do u guys think?


I am not really good at this stuff so I am asking out of the kindness of your hearts what u think

[Black3.2]

that is a lot of coin per month, and do you honestly think that you wont drive more than 12k per year?

[orlandosk2]

that is a lot of coin per month, and do you honestly think that you wont drive more than 12k per year?



No i dont drive more then that per year

[mrbogangles]

thats $41940
at the end of the lease
one more year and you could pay it all off

not worth it imo

[0302]

That sounds like a lot. I'm thinking that leases on that amount should be in the 650-850 range. That's just a guess on my part though.

[orlandosk2]

does anyone work at a dealer that is actually nice enough to help me not get ripped off or anyone good with this stuff ?

[thenicholsterr]

when do you guys think the rate is gonna get normal, like 600-800 (as in the 335i which the S4 is suppose to compete against anyways)? planning to lease one during spring next year...

[mrbogangles]

why not just bye it
28k for your car + 5k in the loan and 4k from you = 17k left to pay on the car
would be like 400-500 a month for 36 month

[Stubek]

i generally don't like leases, you pay that much and in 3 years have absolutely nothing, as mrbogangles said, one more year and you could own the car. just finance and buy the thing

[JasonR]

when do you guys think the rate is gonna get normal, like 600-800 (as in the 335i which the S4 is suppose to compete against anyways)? planning to lease one during spring next year...

Not to be pessimistic, but it probably won't. In the spring, the rates might be better, but the residual will balance things out... maybe a few bucks in your favor, but could just as easily go the other way. Audi and leasing no longer makes sense on very well equipped cars unless you absolutely must have a lease for tax reasons or something... and must have an Audi.

How is the 4 year finance rate on the S4? My A4 was a steal a few months ago.

[SoCalS4Avant]

All I can say is that seems like too damn much. Consider what Bojangles said...you could own that puppy instead of having to return it - for less probably.

[B_Boy]

ur a **** if u dont do what bojangles said or u could wait a few months for the lease prices to go down.

[Stubek]

another option if the audi rate is too high for financing, go to a third party lender or your bank and get a general loan for 50k.

[notjoefromnh]

why not just bye it
28k for your car + 5k in the loan and 4k from you = 17k left to pay on the car
would be like 400-500 a month for 36 month

It's because he is upside down on the 2009. Thats why he is rolling the money he owes into the lease of this car.

The residual is most likely low and the money factor is high. First year runs are like that. Not to mention the industry is realizing leased cars don't return the profit they did years ago.

A 4 Year $56,000 loan at 3.99% will run you $1,290 a month. If you can afford $1,165 the extra $125 shouldn't be an issue. You can find a credit union for those rates, all you will need to do is join for a small fee.

[A6.S-line]

It's because he is upside down on the 2009. Thats why he is rolling the money he owes into the lease of this car.

The residual is most likely low and the money factor is high. First year runs are like that. Not to mention the industry is realizing leased cars don't return the profit they did years ago.

A 4 Year $56,000 loan at 3.99% will run you $1,290 a month. If you can afford $1,165 the extra $125 shouldn't be an issue. You can find a credit union for those rates, all you will need to do is join for a small fee.

Good points, except the residual value (RV) probably won't improve after the first year. It will likely remain the same or diminish slightly.

Audis can often be great value when you buy them, but leases via BMWFS are usually more attractive simply because they calculate a higher RV

[JasonR]

notjoefromnh is spot on - get the actual money factor and residual numbers and share them here. The money factor on a new model intro is rarely attractive, and the residual on a loaded Audi stinks. I suspect that's going to be the case for the S4 across the board.

One point though...


It's because he is upside down on the 2009. Thats why he is rolling the money he owes into the lease of this car.


If he's rolling $5,000 into the lease, but paying a $4,000 "out of pocket", how much is really rolled into the lease? I was playing with numbers and assuming it's only $1k. The "out of pocket" may include 1st month, security, tax/title/tags, but the OP wasn't very specific. If leasing were the right option, I'd do what I could to pay that other car off separately and not roll negative equity into this deal... especially if I was holding enough cash in my hand to almost pay for that on the spot.

[yettavr6]

Our 335xi was just under $55k, and with $0 down the 36-month lease is under $900/month. I would personally never lease, but my partner leased the BMW because he is a small business owner and for tax purposes his accountant recommened it.

[orlandosk2]

i went to BMW across the screen and he told me 1056 for a 55k 335XI with my negative rolled into it as well

[Stubek]

Keep the car you have now and revisit the S4 dream in a year or so. They will still sell them.

[orlandosk2]

i like how u guys say that but my negative equity is really only costing me 125 a month so what they are still trying to say this car is $1000 a month? is there a way to buy directly from audi bc i am so sick and tired of dealerships. Why can they make more room? What are they doing? Taking money off the cars? Raising interest or what?

[speedchangesU]

thats $41940
at the end of the lease
one more year and you could pay it all off

not worth it imo

no lease....buy that bad boy, I second that!

[orlandosk2]

did my home work and bankofamerica had interest rate for me on a new 72 month loan for 884.00 per month which is way more affordable plus I can just pay more the and have it paid of sooner. Do dealers not like when u dont use them?

[speedchangesU]

did my home work and bankofamerica had interest rate for me on a new 72 month loan for 884.00 per month which is way more affordable plus I can just pay more the and have it paid of sooner. Do dealers not like when u dont use them? Not really cash talks! What is Audi Financial offering on a long term loan? I used my bank also and it worked out just fine!
I may trade for an S4 when all the hype is over in the spring... good luck

[orlandosk2]

yeah i guess hype doesnt matter when buying out right. what do you guys think my car is really only worth 28k? They didnt actually appraise it just kinda guessed

[JasonR]

orlandosk2 -

I know you're trying to do your homework, but you're skipping over the important details while talking to the dealership and bank, or you're not sharing them here. I haven't seen the actual money factor (rate) or residuals on the 2010 S4 yet, but these are numbers that the dealer can give you. It's a fixed number. They will have no control over the rate or residual set by Audi Finance. The only way to work with those numbers is if they have financing available through some other institution... and most likely each of those will be nearly fixed as well.

So your homework...
1 - Call the dealer and find out for the 36 month 12k mi/year lease, what is the interest rate or money factor, and what is the residual value (in percent).

2 - What is the negotiated price of the car? ie: Are you going to pay the sticker price, some better deal than that, or some premium above it?

3 - What is that $4k "out of pocket" going toward? Is it for tax/title/tag fees plus first month, security deposit, and anything else? Does it fully cover all those items or is there money left that goes to lowering the cap cost? Is sales tax included or will you pay it separately? Do you know the rate for your area?

4 - If you wanted to finance this car from Audi Financial, what rates are they offering over a 48, 60 or 72 month term (whatever you're interested in.) Get info about as many options as are available. You never know... sometimes the 'best' deal is one you wouldn't have expected.

5 - THEN you can take that information and intelligently compare Audi's lease against it's finance deals, and also compare those deals with what you can get from a bank. Ask them the same questions about rates, residuals, fees, out of pocket expenses, etc.

As for dealing directly with Audi and avoiding the unpleasant dealership experience, the truth is that the above information is the way to make that experience bearable. You need to understand that just about the only variable in the equation is the negotiated price of the car. If the sticker says $54,000 and you can talk them down to $52,000 then the monthly payment on a lease would drop by something around $60 (based on some bogus numbers I played with). THIS is your negotiating tool, and damn near the only one you have.

Anyway... work the deal on the car itself. Find out what others are paying for an S4. I know A4s have been going for well under dealer invoice, but that may not be the case for the shiny new S4 with its Thupuhcharguh. ;) Then use an online leasing tool like this one (below) to figure out where these numbers should lead you. Don't forget that they may include things like title, tags, security deposit, and some other fees which you'll need to consider (or attempt to negotiate).

http://www.leaseguide.com/calc.htm

Once you have those numbers, share them here and also compare them with a local bank or two. Getting competitive quotes for a lease is never a bad idea. And do likewise for the loan.

I had planned to lease my '09 A4 but with the Prestige and S-Line the residual dropped to around 46% on a 36mo term and 15k miles. Despite a reasonable rate, the payments were pretty high, especially when compared to the 48mo financing deal of 1.9%! My finance payments are about 20-25% higher but I'll own the car outright in four years. Unless your accountant is telling you that you have to lease a car for tax purposes, give very serious consideration to the purchase. If it's a tax thing, you're probably better off taking your business to a bank that has a great leasing deal, however unlikely that may be.

Finally... calculate the costs involved with this transaction. However you cut it, you're taking a pretty big hit to swap your nearly new A4 for an S4. I know you had issues with the GIAC ECU. Did you get in touch with the GIAC dealer and have them look at your car? If you really don't feel an improvement, something is wrong that can almost certainly be rectified with a visit and a reflash. If that's still not enough oomph, get in touch with AWE and buy their Front Mounted Intercooler for $1k and another 21 HP at the crank.

Best of luck!
- Jason

[JasonR]

One final thought...

Especially when comparing leases, always always always ask about the rates and residuals for every single offer that applies to the car. ie: Is there a 24 month deal? A 42 or 48 month? Just because 3 years is the sweet spot doesn't mean it will be the best deal among several available from a given lender.

And please share the info you get! Has anyone seen rates and residuals for the S4 yet? Leasecompare doesn't have the numbers yet.

[orlandosk2]

thanks so much im gonna try and get more out of him

[celts17]

i just agreed to terms on mine -- they wouldn't budge on msrp which was 55,350. Audi financial was offering 7.9% for a 60 month term financing on the s4 which is pretty terrible. Bank of america is offering 5.4 and USAA is offering 5.23. As for leasing, I believe they offered me about 1100/month for 15k miles/yr with about 5000 due at signing. I laughed at that. I decided to opt for the premier purchase option and do a balloon payment at the end of three years. This made sense for me since I get a large raise in a year and a half. Hope this helps...

[orlandosk2]

i just agreed to terms on mine -- they wouldn't budge on msrp which was 55,350. Audi financial was offering 7.9% for a 60 month term financing on the s4 which is pretty terrible. Bank of america is offering 5.4 and USAA is offering 5.23. As for leasing, I believe they offered me about 1100/month for 15k miles/yr with about 5000 due at signing. I laughed at that. I decided to opt for the premier purchase option and do a balloon payment at the end of three years. This made sense for me since I get a large raise in a year and a half. Hope this helps...

Can you give me more details on what you did on a premier purchase?

[celts17]

Oh, one more thing, I saw the dealer printout as far as invoice prices go. Their profit margins are pretty low on this car, so I honestly don't think many dealers will budge too far from msrp on this relatively low volume high demand brand new model. The MSRP of my car is 55,350, and if I remember correctly the invoice was in the low 52,000 range. The residual on my car after 3 years was 28K and change.

[orlandosk2]

Oh, one more thing, I saw the dealer printout as far as invoice prices go. Their profit margins are pretty low on this car, so I honestly don't think many dealers will budge too far from msrp on this relatively low volume high demand brand new model. The MSRP of my car is 55,350, and if I remember correctly the invoice was in the low 52,000 range. The residual on my car after 3 years was 28K and change.

residual is 50 percent

[orlandosk2]

so how can Premier Purchasing help?

[Silververtu]

Too expensive, I would rather finance it.

[Ryne@AE Performance]

I think the best case scenario would be something like this;

Well equipped 2010 Audi S4 3.0t
Premium Plus
B&O
Sport Differential
Standard Color
Alcantara Interior
Audi MMI Nav+
Carbon Interior Trim

MSRP $50,850
Invoice should be around .93 of MSRP which would be around $47,290
Expect to negotiate on a good day around .95 of MSRP which would be around $48,307

Most should know that a dealers gross margin is not 7% on a vehicle. There is no way they could keep the doors open at this rate. They probably have a much stronger margin, so getting it at invoice is not actually unheard of. You may be able to work something somewhere to get it done, but your circumstance may very.

So, lets say invoice, $47,290. This is $3,560 below MSRP.

Say you have an '09 A4, Audi Loyalty Money is $2,500.

Negotiated price, after Audi Loyalty Money (which AoA reimburses the dealer for) is $44,790.

Now, say you put another 1K down to walk off. That is $43,790 final negotiated price.

$50,850 is MSRP
$43,790 is now your Net Cap Cost. (MSRP - Cap Cost Reductions)

Lets just say Audi Financial releases some very positive 51% Residual numbers, much like they did on the 2009 A4 when they were hot.

Just as well, maybe they will someday hit a .00085 money factor, just like with the '09 A4s when they were hot.

36 Month Term, the 51% residual being on 12K miles per year.

8.75% Tax Rate in Orange County

You come up with $603.86

Now, that is what the car should cost. Then you can sell your '09 A4 and take a loss on it in a separate transaction. If you try to wrap the two together, you will get screwed. A dealership has a hard time even making this above scenario work, simply because they don't understand that it actually is possible. If they want to sell the car and work with you, it probably is possible above.

Audi's rates will most likely be much higher than this, or it could be something like the '09 S5 Manual for July '09 lease rates, which were 53% Residual on a .00295 Money Factor with 15K miles per year for 36 months....

Which would make your effective payment $735.63.

Food for thought... numbers are fun. :)

*None of the numbers above are actual numbers and it is just an example of a probable situation of what could occur.

[orlandosk2]

i got new number on a 51,500 S4 for 999 a month with 3000 down and 5000 added into my price hes giving me 1000 loyalty cash toward lease

[EuroB6]

1100/month for a S4...that's ridiculous

[orlandosk2]

1100/month for a S4...that's ridiculous

i just said 999 a month

[B_Boy]

y is it that u r so crazed on getting this s4 when u have a 09 A4?

i think even if u have the money to blow, financially its not worth it and u should save ur money bcuz if something happens to ur job u dont want that pretty s4 to get repo'ed.

keep the a4 do a few mods in a few years trade it in, hopefully the economy gets better and then the s4 prices will be alot more affordable.

[orlandosk2]

y is it that u r so crazed on getting this s4 when u have a 09 A4?

i think even if u have the money to blow, financially its not worth it and u should save ur money bcuz if something happens to ur job u dont want that pretty s4 to get repo'ed.

keep the a4 do a few mods in a few years trade it in, hopefully the economy gets better and then the s4 prices will be alot more affordable.


why not?

[speedchangesU]

Oh, one more thing, I saw the dealer printout as far as invoice prices go. Their profit margins are pretty low on this car, so I honestly don't think many dealers will budge too far from msrp on this relatively low volume high demand brand new model. The MSRP of my car is 55,350, and if I remember correctly the invoice was in the low 52,000 range. The residual on my car after 3 years was 28K and change.

Half price how nice of them....

[JasonR]

Have you gotten any figures for financing? Did you get the actual interest rate or money factor plus residual value on the lease? I know you said 50% residual - is that the residual for 36mo/12k mi? I suspect that number is going to get ugly as the model year progresses...

Did you ever get in touch with your GIAC dealer to find out what's up with your ECU upgrade?

[speedchangesU]

y is it that u r so crazed on getting this s4 when u have a 09 A4?

i think even if u have the money to blow, financially its not worth it and u should save ur money bcuz if something happens to ur job u dont want that pretty s4 to get repo'ed.

keep the a4 do a few mods in a few years trade it in, hopefully the economy gets better and then the s4 prices will be alot more affordable.

I agree, wait 6-8 months and shop around for the S4 again, they will make more! or you can order one. Save some cash and put it down when you trade your current B8. I think the 09 B8 will become a sought after used car, due to the depreciation factor and lots of people purchase a year old to save money and the 2009 and 2010's are basically the same except for some option changes! Just my 2 cents

[ginkof]

that payment is with your car traded in? That lease payment is out of control! you would be getting totally ripped off! if you trade in your other car, your lease payment should only come out to 4-500 a month tops depending on your credit and options on the car.

RUN AWAY VERY QUICKLY!

[orlandosk2]

that payment is with your car traded in? That lease payment is out of control! you would be getting totally ripped off! if you trade in your other car, your lease payment should only come out to 4-500 a month tops depending on your credit and options on the car.

RUN AWAY VERY QUICKLY!

i dont understand how u seem to think trading in a car i owe on brings the car payment down?

[orlandosk2]

Have you gotten any figures for financing? Did you get the actual interest rate or money factor plus residual value on the lease? I know you said 50% residual - is that the residual for 36mo/12k mi? I suspect that number is going to get ugly as the model year progresses...

Did you ever get in touch with your GIAC dealer to find out what's up with your ECU upgrade?


Financing was still higher this new price is 15k and 42 month lease

[revotuneda3]

hmm, thats sounds expensive, I was looking at an 08 rs4 last year and they quoted me at 950 for 39mo at 12k/yr with 5k down. i kinda regret chickening out like a little bitch. did you check how much the residual is? I read somewhere that cars that have high monthly payments and low residual usually less than 45% is not a good car to lease and that your better off financing it. 1000 in negative equity should translate to an extra 30 bucks or so a month for your monthly. hope that helps.

[speedchangesU]

i dont understand how u seem to think trading in a car i owe on brings the car payment down?

I'm not sure he knows you have negative equity; you owe the bank more than its worth to the dealer. If you really want that S4 put enough money down to cover the amount of the negative equity the dealer says you have, (of course try to get more for your car first) so you will basically have " a wash" and finance the final selling price of the S4. If you roll in negative equity your paying to much for that car and your loan to value is not good!

[JasonR]

Okay... do yourself a favor and stop letting this dealer mess with you! Somehow you've managed to get another interesting deal that changes every single variable and yet excludes almost any useful information. If you want to shop for a good deal, you absolutely cannot just shop for a monthy payment.

Comparing the two deals as best as possible:
Deal A:
MSRP just over $54k
Cap Cost (unknown)
Term: 36mo
Miles/Yeara: 12k
Includes $5k negative equity on existing vehicle
Out of pocket: $4k
Monthly Payments: $1165
Total payments: $45940
Cost per mile: $1.28

Deal B:
MSRP: $51,500
Cap Cost (unknown)
Term: 42mo
Miles/Year: 15k
Includes $5k negative equity on existing vehicle
Out of pocket: $3k
Monthly Payments: $999
Total payments: $44958
Cost per mile: $0.86

What's the story with the $1k loyalty. Did he use that in the second deal to lower your up-front cost? Where is it in the first deal? I imagine it applies there as well, but perhaps we didn't account for it. In that case, the two deals are nearly identical in total costs, but the second one lets you keep the car for 6 months longer and put 25% more miles on the car per year. That has a significant impact on the cost per mile to lease the car.

Go back to square one. Negotiate the price you'll be paying for the car. It doesn't matter if it's "your" money or the bank's money. That's not to say the dealer will budge on the price of the car, but you should at least know what you're paying... MSRP, maybe a discount, or maybe a premium! Then you can shop around because every Audi dealer will have the exact same programs from Audi Financial.

And for God's sake, if you're dying to get yourself into an S4, pick the one you want. If the $54k one is the one you want, it's 'only' going to cost around $40/mo more to get it. Personally I would wait and enjoy my A4, but if you're set on following your heart and upgrading, then get the one you really want at least.

And quit letting the dealer bully you! That $999 deal smacks of a response to a customer saying, "I really need a payment in the three digits."

[charliemike]

Wow, this is really a debacle.

Firstly, it sounds like you have a serious case of upgrade-itis. I would take a moment and stop and think about the reasons for upgrading to the S4. If it's any kind of emotional fulfillment I'd wait. If it's that you made a mistake getting the A4 and you'll keep the S4 forever then by all means get the S4.

Something else to consider - You have a 2009 A4 and you're already going to take a $5000 hit ... Is the A4 THAT bad? Personally, I'd drive the A4 and wait for the 2010 S4 to hit the used market at about the 2-yr mark. You might be able to turn that $5000 upside down number into a wash in the next two years, get the S4 for around $40-45k and save yourself $15-20k in the process compared to doing something right now.

Yeah new is awesome and all that but $15-20k is a huge number (at least to me).

At the very least, don't trade that A4 in to a dealer. They are just going to maul you on trade in and at this point you're probably dry-humping the S4 brochure. They are probably low-balling you to the bejeezus belt on the trade and jacking your financing around to murder you in the finance office.

It's your life and your money but from what you're telling us, you're about to get absolutely crushed by a very savvy (and typically shady) dealer.

[AAAA]

I think the best case scenario would be something like this;

Well equipped 2010 Audi S4 3.0t
Premium Plus
B&O
Sport Differential
Standard Color
Alcantara Interior
Audi MMI Nav+
Carbon Interior Trim

MSRP $50,850
Invoice should be around .93 of MSRP which would be around $47,290
Expect to negotiate on a good day around .95 of MSRP which would be around $48,307

Most should know that a dealers gross margin is not 7% on a vehicle. There is no way they could keep the doors open at this rate. They probably have a much stronger margin, so getting it at invoice is not actually unheard of. You may be able to work something somewhere to get it done, but your circumstance may very.

So, lets say invoice, $47,290. This is $3,560 below MSRP.

Say you have an '09 A4, Audi Loyalty Money is $2,500.

Negotiated price, after Audi Loyalty Money (which AoA reimburses the dealer for) is $44,790.

Now, say you put another 1K down to walk off. That is $43,790 final negotiated price.

$50,850 is MSRP
$43,790 is now your Net Cap Cost. (MSRP - Cap Cost Reductions)

Lets just say Audi Financial releases some very positive 51% Residual numbers, much like they did on the 2009 A4 when they were hot.

Just as well, maybe they will someday hit a .00085 money factor, just like with the '09 A4s when they were hot.

36 Month Term, the 51% residual being on 12K miles per year.

8.75% Tax Rate in Orange County

You come up with $603.86

Now, that is what the car should cost. Then you can sell your '09 A4 and take a loss on it in a separate transaction. If you try to wrap the two together, you will get screwed. A dealership has a hard time even making this above scenario work, simply because they don't understand that it actually is possible. If they want to sell the car and work with you, it probably is possible above.

Audi's rates will most likely be much higher than this, or it could be something like the '09 S5 Manual for July '09 lease rates, which were 53% Residual on a .00295 Money Factor with 15K miles per year for 36 months....

Which would make your effective payment $735.63.

.


Let me clarify some things:

First, they are not going to budge on MSRP, if they do it won't be anywhere near invoice b/c these are in "limited quantities" and "very sought after cars" right now.

Second, the residual on these cars are 57%. The money factor is an outrageous .00305, which equates to about 7.3x% apr, and this is for tier 1 credit rating. Absolutely ridiculous. Also, the 5yr apr if you buy it, for excellent credit, is 5.9%, also crazy. Audi knows these cars are selling and that cheap ass broke people aren't buying them, so they are taking advantage by making money on the financing, one way or another.

Thirdly, the loyalty bonus on the s4 is 750 if you lease it, and 1500 if you buy it. That's it. 2500 would be nice, but not accurate.

Fourthly, as others have said, OP you rolling your car into this so soon is crazy. You're not only going to pay these outrageous rates to finance this s4, but you're also going to pay those rates on the negative equity you're rolling over with it, whether you lease it or buy it. If I were you, and I've been in your shoes where you're willing to do whatever it takes to get that car, I would just wait another year or so to catch up on the value of your car vs. what you owe, meanwhile keeping it for private sale that whole year just to see what happens. Then try again in a year. This way you'll have a better chance of getting the s4 cheaper than right now, hopefully the rates will be a lot more favorable, and your negative equity won't be so high.

[audiwop]

Orlandosk2, Let me hopefully shed some light on this thing for you. First off, I'm a manager at an Audi dealer and have been reading this post and will try to shed some light on the subject a bit. I just worked up a deal on a generic S4 prestige package and used a base msrp of $55350. Hypothetically lets say I sell the car for 52K and roll in the 5grand neg that you are talking about. On a 12K mile year lease, for 36 months with $4000 out of pocket and using buy rate on the money factory the payment came out to be $973.37. So no, your not getting ripped off. I do realize that I work in the only industry where profit is a dirty word, and if we dare make any then we are labeled a stealership. If you would like for me to help you in this process then feel free to PM. But please, don't listen to the people who say DUDE, thats a rip off. The numbers are what they are. The dealership does not set or dictate what the residual values are, nor the base money factor. Audi of America does that, so for those of you that want to hammer the dealer, so be it, it will get you NO where. Also, I won't get into the lease vs purchase debate. To each there own in that regard. The only thing I have never understood is why anyone would want to purchase a depreciating asset. The only thing I can tell you is my most loyal clients are for the most part repeat lease customers who like having a new car every 36months, and dont want to worry about warranty issues, long term loans and all the headaches that come with trying to sell and old car down the road. But for those of you who think that we the dealer like having s4's lease for $1000. plus dollars a month, then you live in lala land. I wish these things leased for $600. a month, if they did I would be able to sell a shit load of them. But they don't, so why cry over it. The bottom line is, you can either afford it, or you cant. No big deal!!!!

[audiwop]

Let me clarify some things:

First, they are not going to budge on MSRP, if they do it won't be anywhere near invoice b/c these are in "limited quantities" and "very sought after cars" right now.

Second, the residual on these cars are 57%. The money factor is an outrageous .00305, which equates to about 7.3x% apr, and this is for tier 1 credit rating. Absolutely ridiculous. Also, the 5yr apr if you buy it, for excellent credit, is 5.9%, also crazy. Audi knows these cars are selling and that cheap ass broke people aren't buying them, so they are taking advantage by making money on the financing, one way or another.

Thirdly, the loyalty bonus on the s4 is 750 if you lease it, and 1500 if you buy it. That's it. 2500 would be nice, but not accurate.

Fourthly, as others have said, OP you rolling your car into this so soon is crazy. You're not only going to pay these outrageous rates to finance this s4, but you're also going to pay those rates on the negative equity you're rolling over with it, whether you lease it or buy it. If I were you, and I've been in your shoes where you're willing to do whatever it takes to get that car, I would just wait another year or so to catch up on the value of your car vs. what you owe, meanwhile keeping it for private sale that whole year just to see what happens. Then try again in a year. This way you'll have a better chance of getting the s4 cheaper than right now, hopefully the rates will be a lot more favorable, and your negative equity won't be so high.

The money factor is .00205, not .00305. unless you waive the security deposit and then you add .00015 to .00205.

[B8_Jim]

<snip>
The only thing I have never understood is why anyone would want to purchase a depreciating asset.

Because often purchasing that dep. asset can lead to lower overall cost than being continually locked into leasing the same dep. asset at the point where the depreciation rate is the highest (first few years).

Everyone has a different situation, but saying that purchasing a dep asset is always worse than leasing is wrong. If you don't want to lose money on cars, don't have one.

I ran the #'s -- purchasing my A4 in my situation was WAY more cost effective than leasing because in effect I'm using Audi's money at 1.9% to pay off higher rate loans. Like I said -- everyone's situation is different -- each has to assess the variables and make the right decision for them. It's definitely not one-size-fits-all.

[Blake P]

There has been some excellent advice posted in this thread. Unfortunately, orlandosk2 doesn't really seem to be listening to most of it.

[0302]

There has been some excellent advice posted in this thread. Unfortunately, orlandosk2 doesn't really seem to be listening to most of it.
ding we have a winner. I don't think he's going to be happy until someone says it's a good deal so that he can rationalize his decision.

[audiwop]

Because often purchasing that dep. asset can lead to lower overall cost than being continually locked into leasing the same dep. asset at the point where the depreciation rate is the highest (first few years).

Everyone has a different situation, but saying that purchasing a dep asset is always worse than leasing is wrong. If you don't want to lose money on cars, don't have one.

I ran the #'s -- purchasing my A4 in my situation was WAY more cost effective than leasing because in effect I'm using Audi's money at 1.9% to pay off higher rate loans. Like I said -- everyone's situation is different -- each has to assess the variables and make the right decision for them. It's definitely not one-size-fits-all.

Hence why I said to each their own.... But lets not forget in most states you save a shit load of money on sales tax when leasing because you only pay tax on the monthly payment, not the whole purchase price as with a purchase. Also, keep in mind that a savy lease buyer at the end of the lease can negotiate lots of money off the set residual. For example, my dealership has been saving a8 buyers nearly 10K off the resdiual at lease end because we are able to buy if from audi cheaper than the customer can. Not to mention the fact that GAP insurance is included on a lease, if the car is in an accident and has frame damage, the bank suffers the diminished value, not the customer who has to disclose it come resale time. Also most base a4 and a6 lease rates have money factors equal to what ever APR the factory is offering so your not losing money their either. But you are right, not all leases are cheaper, and no two car buying deals are the same. Whats good for one, is not always good for the other. With that said, and working thousands of lease vs purchase deals over the past 6 years I can tell 7 out of 10 times it is more cost effective to lease vs purchase. I mean at the end of the day what are you really loosing when you lease, its a 3 year test drive with the right to buy the remaining portion of the vehicle that has not yet been payed for at the end of it all. I can't tell you how many times someone puts themselves into a 72 or 84 month loan burried to high hell trying to get out of the thing 2-3 years later, and when asked why they did it, because they needed a cheaper payment and wanted a sence of ownership. the only problem is, it is very rare that I ever see anyone who holds a title to a car that is less that 5 years old. And at the end, they are always pissed that their 6-7 year old car isn't worth dick anymore after paying on it for so many years. And when you say that you ran the numbers on purchasing vs leasing, did you calculate how much audi would negotiate the residual at the end? Usually its a pretty big savings.....

[orlandosk2]

There is a lot of good advice and I understand all of your opinions and thats the reasoning behind this thread. Thank you all for your answers to my problems. The way I see it is this. I am paying $730 a month for my A4 which I got raped on because I didnt wait. I dont really think paying a few hundred more for this car is that bad. Did anyone figure that in?

[audiwop]

There is a lot of good advice and I understand all of your opinions and thats the reasoning behind this thread. Thank you all for your answers to my problems. The way I see it is this. I am paying $730 a month for my A4 which I got raped on because I didnt wait. I dont really think paying a few hundred more for this car is that bad. Did anyone figure that in?

Think of it this way, if you love the S4 and will get a tingly feeling up your leg every time you see it in your garage, then no, a few hundred bucks a month is not a big deal. Just get the car, you only live once and cant take the money with you when your dead!!!! Just be sure to save enough for gas[up]

[Esoteric]

I agree.

With the crazy money factor compared to loan rates (either through the dealer or separately), the total cost of ownership is much, much lower.

That said, it doesn't mean that it's better to buy for everyone; I get that.


Because often purchasing that dep. asset can lead to lower overall cost than being continually locked into leasing the same dep. asset at the point where the depreciation rate is the highest (first few years).

Everyone has a different situation, but saying that purchasing a dep asset is always worse than leasing is wrong. If you don't want to lose money on cars, don't have one.

I ran the #'s -- purchasing my A4 in my situation was WAY more cost effective than leasing because in effect I'm using Audi's money at 1.9% to pay off higher rate loans. Like I said -- everyone's situation is different -- each has to assess the variables and make the right decision for them. It's definitely not one-size-fits-all.

[orlandosk2]

Think of it this way, if you love the S4 and will get a tingly feeling up your leg every time you see it in your garage, then no, a few hundred bucks a month is not a big deal. Just get the car, you only live once and cant take the money with you when your dead!!!! Just be sure to save enough for gas[up]

thats how I see it you only live once. I understand in all honesty that what im doing isnt the best idea, but I dont see it being a bad one. I think I will buy this one because of how much i like it. The A4 I bought isnt all that I wanted. I really like the car but its missing much stuff I wanted. I just was geeked and bought it.

Now the car they have I am not sure its what I want either. Its everything I want but I am not 100 percent sure on the color. I like it I just dont know if I really want that color or not. If not I can wait. It is meteor gray and it has the red/black interior which I wanted and it is a manual with NAV and camera

[audiwop]

^^^^Right now on an 09 a4 cab the audi's money factory is .00004 for a 36 month lease which equates to about .09% apr vs a 36 month loan at .9% apr. Both are dam near free money. When Audi does their special lease money fators they almost always mirror their special apr

[audiwop]

thats how I see it you only live once. I understand in all honesty that what im doing isnt the best idea, but I dont see it being a bad one. I think I will buy this one because of how much i like it. The A4 I bought isnt all that I wanted. I really like the car but its missing much stuff I wanted. I just was geeked and bought it.

Now the car they have I am not sure its what I want either. Its everything I want but I am not 100 percent sure on the color. I like it I just dont know if I really want that color or not. If not I can wait. It is meteor gray and it has the red/black interior which I wanted and it is a manual with NAV and camera

This time, just make sure its the car that you really want. Also, it doesn't hurt to throw out numerous internet quotes to other dealers in your area and see who takes care of you the best. Good luck and enjoy your new ride. I just drove ours about and hour or so ago and all I can say is WOW. That thing pulls dam hard compared to the B6-B7. 335's beware[evilsmile][evilsmile]

[orlandosk2]

This time, just make sure its the car that you really want. Also, it doesn't hurt to throw out numerous internet quotes to other dealers in your area and see who takes care of you the best. Good luck and enjoy your new ride. I just drove ours about and hour or so ago and all I can say is WOW. That thing pulls dam hard compared to the B6-B7. 335's beware[evilsmile][evilsmile]

you getting one?

[B8_Jim]

Hence why I said to each their own.... But lets not forget in most states you save a shit load of money on sales tax when leasing because you only pay tax on the monthly payment, not the whole purchase price as with a purchase.

But in this senario you pay the sales tax on the depreciation plus the interest, and lose the sales tax credit a trade-in would get you on the next car, right?. For a finance, you pay interest on the sales tax for the length of the finance contract if you roll it in but if/when you trade you get some of it back. Lots of variables -- I think it could go either way depending on the #'s.



Also, keep in mind that a savy lease buyer at the end of the lease can negotiate lots of money off the set residual. For example, my dealership has been saving a8 buyers nearly 10K off the resdiual at lease end because we are able to buy if from audi cheaper than the customer can.

Great if you can get it -- you're forced to determine if you are willing to gamble that the residual will be $xx lower at lease end to get a total cost number. Of course if you finance and then plan to trade or sell the car -- you make a similar gamble on how much the car will be worth when figuring the overall cost benefit of lease vs. purchase. LOTS of things can happen in 3-4 years, so leasing takes some risk out of the situation -- you have a guaranteed minimum that is built into your payment.



Not to mention the fact that GAP insurance is included on a lease, if the car is in an accident and has frame damage, the bank suffers the diminished value, not the customer who has to disclose it come resale time. Also most base a4 and a6 lease rates have money factors equal to what ever APR the factory is offering so your not losing money their either.

No question -- this is an advantage -- reduced risk for big accident damage -- weighed against the risk of "irregular wear" charges at lease end. If you just purchase the car at the end, then there isn't any risk of that either.


I can't tell you how many times someone puts themselves into a 72 or 84 month loan burried to high hell trying to get out of the thing 2-3 years later, and when asked why they did it, because they needed a cheaper payment and wanted a sence of ownership. the only problem is, it is very rare that I ever see anyone who holds a title to a car that is less that 5 years old. And at the end, they are always pissed that their 6-7 year old car isn't worth dick anymore after paying on it for so many years.

Sure there are plenty of people who made stupid decisions on purchases - that particular example sounds really stupid to me, but , hey -- it's not my money.... There are probably lots of people who got into a 3 year $950/mo lease payments who couldn't /really/ afford it either and after a year wanted out of that too.


And when you say that you ran the numbers on purchasing vs leasing, did you calculate how much audi would negotiate the residual at the end? Usually its a pretty big savings.....

Exactly how would I calculate the residual difference -- will Audi tell me[;)]? Just kidding... How big in you experience has the difference been on something like, for instance, my 38,600 MSRP A4? I was really on the line with lease vs. purchase, but the #'s were slightly better with purchase and it gave me a bit more flexibility. If I felt I could rely on some residual value wiggle room at the end, that might change my decision process next time...

Thanks for your inputs -- I've thoroughly enjoyed this thread. The more I learn, the more I realize that every situation is different. No blanket statements work either way.

[orlandosk2]

ok so I punched in all the numbers into a lease calculator 52k and 57% residual 29355, 5000 rolled into it. $750 cash rebate. 15k miles and I get $916.02 per month for 42 months.
http://www.edmunds.com/apps/calc/CalculatorController?pmtcalAction=lease_calc

[audiwop]

But in this senario you pay the sales tax on the depreciation plus the interest, and lose the sales tax credit a trade-in would get you on the next car, right?. For a finance, you pay interest on the sales tax for the length of the finance contract if you roll it in but if/when you trade you get some of it back. Lots of variables -- I think it could go either way depending on the #'s.



Great if you can get it -- you're forced to determine if you are willing to gamble that the residual will be $xx lower at lease end to get a total cost number. Of course if you finance and then plan to trade or sell the car -- you make a similar gamble on how much the car will be worth when figuring the overall cost benefit of lease vs. purchase. LOTS of things can happen in 3-4 years, so leasing takes some risk out of the situation -- you have a guaranteed minimum that is built into your payment.



No question -- this is an advantage -- reduced risk for big accident damage -- weighed against the risk of "irregular wear" charges at lease end. If you just purchase the car at the end, then there isn't any risk of that either.



Sure there are plenty of people who made stupid decisions on purchases - that particular example sounds really stupid to me, but , hey -- it's not my money.... There are probably lots of people who got into a 3 year $950/mo lease payments who couldn't /really/ afford it either and after a year wanted out of that too.



Exactly how would I calculate the residual difference -- will Audi tell me[;)]? Just kidding... How big in you experience has the difference been on something like, for instance, my 38,600 MSRP A4? I was really on the line with lease vs. purchase, but the #'s were slightly better with purchase and it gave me a bit more flexibility. If I felt I could rely on some residual value wiggle room at the end, that might change my decision process next time...

Thanks for your inputs -- I've thoroughly enjoyed this thread. The more I learn, the more I realize that every situation is different. No blanket statements work either way.

It totally depends on the wholesale market at the time. to give you an example, I have seen people save 3-4 grand off their residual at lease end. Basically your dealer needs to call audi and see what they can buy the car for. Then depending on how much they want to make on it, they can sell it back to you for your residual, and make a killing, (but now you know not to let that happen) or they can sell it for $500. bucks over their cost of buying it and everyone is happy. Think of it this way, my parents leased their a8l form me. it was a 36month lease, and the got 5grand off at time of signing. The residual was $43800. and I was able to sell it back to them for $32750 CPO warranty included. That is a total of 15K off of sticker when added together, and they only had to pay tax on the 33grand at the end plus the 35 payments, not the 43K residual. So in their case, this worked out great, as it does with most. At the end of the day their is no right answer and you did good by looking at all the senerios. Sometimes leasing makes more sence, and sometimes it doesn't. Totally depends on the car and the programs at the time of purchase.

[audiwop]

ok so I punched in all the numbers into a lease calculator 52k and 57% residual 29355, 5000 rolled into it. $750 cash rebate. 15k miles and I get $916.02 per month for 42 months.
http://www.edmunds.com/apps/calc/CalculatorController?pmtcalAction=lease_calc

Those residuals are for a 36 month lease, not 42. Audis programs are almost always based on 36 month leases.

[orlandosk2]

Those residuals are for a 36 month lease, not 42. Audis programs are almost always based on 36 month leases.

do you know the residuals and everything i need to know for a 42 month?

[audiwop]

do you know the residuals and everything i need to know for a 42 month?


A 42 month will cost more, Audi special programs are geared towards 36 month leases. Don't focus on 42, 48, or anything but the 36month lease. the rate goes up, and the residual drops to 47 percent for a prestige, and 50 percent for a premium plus

[EuroB6]

Im sorry, but I just feel that this recent move to go with the SCd V6 was a downgrade. Not just the engine, but also the target group for this car is now the 335, as the older models were targeted more towards the M3. The car from the outside looks very much like my 09 A4, there isn't much to it, to distinguish itself from the A4. Sure, the subtle styling and upgrades are there, but they are too subtle. To me, the "S" label, doesn't feel as important as it did when the V8 was in them. Im sure the new engine and car is great, but I think they are just a bit overpriced for what you are getting. Just my .02

[Esoteric]

I actually think the value for money in this car is outstanding. It is priced similarly to the 335xi and has MORE features, and performance (at least stock). Compared to a similarly equipped 2.0T, I would be spending less than $8K (Canadian dollars) more, and I think I'm getting quite a lot! In fact, a well equipped S4, is only $2000 more than the old 3.2 similarly equipped. Excellent value if you ask me.

Audi has made a conscious decision to target the 335 instead of the M and I think this is a good decision. They were caught in no mans land with the 3.2 as it didn't really line up with anything from BMW or MB. It cost the same as a 335i (at least here in Canada), and it was abysmal when compared from a performance perspective.

Audi's strategy is to make the S model the top 'A4', and make the RS models comparable to M3's, C63's, IS-F's, etc.

Where we do agree is that I wish it was a little more aggressive. That said, their strategy to make it the top A4 means that cost mitigation was a factor, and their chief rival (3 series) does exactly the same thing with their line. Other than the dual exhausts, and rims, a 335i looks pretty much identical to every 325, and 328 out there.


Im sorry, but I just feel that this recent move to go with the SCd V6 was a downgrade. Not just the engine, but also the target group for this car is now the 335, as the older models were targeted more towards the M3. The car from the outside looks very much like my 09 A4, there isn't much to it, to distinguish itself from the A4. Sure, the subtle styling and upgrades are there, but they are too subtle. To me, the "S" label, doesn't feel as important as it did when the V8 was in them. Im sure the new engine and car is great, but I think they are just a bit overpriced for what you are getting. Just my .02

[orlandosk2]

great new for all you haters out there. My company I work for offers 6% off off MSRP on 2010 S4 YEAHHHH Plus the 750 cash incentive. So im headed to the dealer

[Gzo17]

And what happened?

[speedchangesU]

Orlandosk2, Let me hopefully shed some light on this thing for you. First off, I'm a manager at an Audi dealer and have been reading this post and will try to shed some light on the subject a bit. I just worked up a deal on a generic S4 prestige package and used a base msrp of $55350. Hypothetically lets say I sell the car for 52K and roll in the 5grand neg that you are talking about. On a 12K mile year lease, for 36 months with $4000 out of pocket and using buy rate on the money factory the payment came out to be $973.37. So no, your not getting ripped off. I do realize that I work in the only industry where profit is a dirty word, and if we dare make any then we are labeled a stealership. If you would like for me to help you in this process then feel free to PM. But please, don't listen to the people who say DUDE, thats a rip off. The numbers are what they are. The dealership does not set or dictate what the residual values are, nor the base money factor. Audi of America does that, so for those of you that want to hammer the dealer, so be it, it will get you NO where. Also, I won't get into the lease vs purchase debate. To each there own in that regard. The only thing I have never understood is why anyone would want to purchase a depreciating asset. The only thing I can tell you is my most loyal clients are for the most part repeat lease customers who like having a new car every 36months, and dont want to worry about warranty issues, long term loans and all the headaches that come with trying to sell and old car down the road. But for those of you who think that we the dealer like having s4's lease for $1000. plus dollars a month, en you live in lala land. I wish these things leased for $600. a month, if they did I would be able to sell a shit load of them. But they don't, so why cry over it. The bottom line is, you can either afford it, or you cant. No big deal!!!!

sell Him the car, he will be sorry if he leases it and pays all that cash then turns it in; if one can afford the $950 lease than a purchase should work to!

[speedchangesU]

great new for all you haters out there. My company I work for offers 6% off off MSRP on 2010 S4 YEAHHHH Plus the 750 cash incentive. So im headed to the dealer

who do you work for?

[jlc59]

i just said 999 a month

Still waaaaay to much for that car!

[A6.S-line]

great new for all you haters out there. My company I work for offers 6% off off MSRP on 2010 S4 YEAHHHH Plus the 750 cash incentive. So im headed to the dealer

Congrats! Not only did you ignore all the good advice in your own thread, but it turns out you didn't even need it [headbang]

I cannot believe how many people post (across the boards), "This is the monthly payment - is it a good deal?"

[ShawFM]

did my home work and bankofamerica had interest rate for me on a new 72 month loan for 884.00 per month which is way more affordable plus I can just pay more the and have it paid of sooner. Do dealers not like when u dont use them?

You drive an '09 now, you want a '10 S4.
You kept the first car about 1 year.
Do you really think the S4 will be with you in 6 years?
Or are you going further upside down on a car loan in the future?

[italian a4 1032]

how much are they offering you for the a4 and how many miles does it have on it?

[AAAA]

The money factor is .00205, not .00305. unless you waive the security deposit and then you add .00015 to .00205.

maybe in california it is, call one of the dc metro dealers and see what their program is. And thanks for telling me that, even shittier that programs differentiate that much from coast to coast. wish I knew someone who lived in cali....

[orlandosk2]

how much are they offering you for the a4 and how many miles does it have on it?

They are offering me 28,000 and it has 10k... my question to you is if I sell it to someone else can I still put the downside into my loan? Probally not?

[B8_Jim]

They are offering me 28,000 and it has 10k... my question to you is if I sell it to someone else can I still put the downside into my loan? Probally not?

Didn't you say in your other thread that you owed 36,623 on it and you were going to roll in $2k of negative equity. This thread you say 28,000 and and $5k of negative equity.... ?

[orlandosk2]

Didn't you say in your other thread that you owed 36,623 on it and you were going to roll in $2k of negative equity. This thread you say 28,000 and and $5k of negative equity.... ?

i dont think so I think i said i am paying 2k and rolling in 5 dude i dont know!! im so confused on this shit obviously

[AAAA]

uhh, you should figure it out. and no, if you have someone buy it privately, you owe the bank the difference out of your pocket.

[italian a4 1032]

They are offering me 28,000 and it has 10k... my question to you is if I sell it to someone else can I still put the downside into my loan? Probally not?

28 is pretty good i thought they would give you less cause there are 2 used ones at a dealership near me with 3k and they are going for 30

[AJS1]

I remember when I got a new 996 in 1999, the sticker was $75,000 and my lease was 1100 a month, with a 5000 down for 36 months , 12k miles a year. I would never in mind pay over 1000 a month for a lease if the sticker is under $70k. But hey thats my experience, just letting you know.

[Hamann]

i generally don't like leases, you pay that much and in 3 years have absolutely nothing, as mrbogangles said, one more year and you could own the car. just finance and buy the thing

huh? You have a car that you can purchase that is directly tied to the depreciation. It also gives you flexibility. You don't "own" the car anyway until it is paid in FULL. Leasing can be a great alternative. In this particular case, the payments are extremely high, however, his amount to purchase at the end of his agreement will be extremely low.

With the right terms, leasing makes sense most of the time.

[jriddle11]

Byers has a black B8 S4 here is what I was quoted.

Sticker - $51,600
Miles per year - 10,000
Term - 36 months
Down - $2,500
Payment - $850.00

[Hamann]

sell Him the car, he will be sorry if he leases it and pays all that cash then turns it in; if one can afford the $950 lease than a purchase should work to!

You're retarded...

[B8_Jim]

In this particular case, the payments are extremely high, however, his amount to purchase at the end of his agreement will be extremely low.


Not seeing it...

From his other thread(s) he has said he is getting 3k off from the audi supplier discount, he is putting 2k down, but has 5k of negative equity in his current A4 -- net result is MSRP (MSRP +5k neg equity - 3k discount -2k down = MSRP).

5 Year finance @ 5.5%/51600 loan -- pmt = $985.62. At the end of 3 years you've paid 35482.32 and still owe 22351. To be cost-neutral vs the lease -- you only have to sell the car for $22351 - That's a 43% residual value after 36 mo.

For this lease he will have paid $36792 -- $1300 more than the finance above. To equal the finance deal, the end-of-lease purchase price has to be 21051 -- That's a 41% residual.

Maybe this lease is built on a 41% residual for 36 months, but I doubt it.

[AAAA]

Not seeing it...

From his other thread(s) he has said he is getting 3k off from the audi supplier discount, he is putting 2k down, but has 5k of negative equity in his current A4 -- net result is MSRP (MSRP +5k neg equity - 3k discount -2k down = MSRP).

5 Year finance @ 5.5%/51600 loan -- pmt = $985.62. At the end of 3 years you've paid 35482.32 and still owe 22351. To be cost-neutral vs the lease -- you only have to sell the car for $22351 - That's a 43% residual value after 36 mo.

For this lease he will have paid $36792 -- $1300 more than the finance above. To equal the finance deal, the end-of-lease purchase price has to be 21051 -- That's a 41% residual.

Maybe this lease is built on a 41% residual for 36 months, but I doubt it.

I think you are missing a couple things: in the other threads he said he owed 36xxx on the a4, and they offered 28, so he's 8k+ in negative equity. Also, the 36mo residual is 57%, which is about 29xxx at the end. bottom line, he's paying way too much.