FAQ: VR6 -12V & 24V Info sharing

[NYEuroTuner]

Was going to post these as a April fools joke..lol But anyways, heres some shots before paint.. And with my Uncles Blower for his Chevy Bel Air rigged in the engine bay lol


http://i101.photobucket.com/albums/m58/Enviousvw/DSC02196-1.jpg
http://i101.photobucket.com/albums/m58/Enviousvw/DSC02195.jpg
http://i101.photobucket.com/albums/m58/Enviousvw/DSC02215.jpg


I'm still sorting thru all the pics, will post more as asoon as I can.

[NYEuroTuner]

Stupid newb question.
If you will do such a swap on a a4, you will need a s4 tranny? )
No, the adapter plate works with the 01A trans and O1e



And what about cluster led screen showing inly 5 speeds in lower section (there are 5 speeds in a4 tranny vs 6 speed in s4)
And if the original car is a tip(showing PRND)?

Lets start off with, what car do you plan on swapping the VR6 into?



And is there anyone done it with b6(would it be possible to do it with b7 since it almost identical car)?

Theres a guy "Craigmack" who is currently swapping a VR6 into a B6, and it is possible to do it in any car, with money anything is posible. Talk to Issam At INA ENGINEERING.



P.S. Only question really stopping me now is will I have problems while doing MA inspection(you know hooking up car to a OBD II machine, since it is a standalone engine management)

INA is currently putting their finishing touches on a complete plug and play custom harness for the VR6. Again, talk to ISSAM. [;)]

[wdbdy2000s4]

INA is currently putting their finishing touches on a complete plug and play custom harness for the VR6. Again, talk to ISSAM. [;)]

I've been dying to see the pricing on this. Between buying the 2 harnesses and the time to repin the harness you use it seems like it wouldn't be significantly less than standalone. I guess there are benefits and downsides to each setup though.

[joemomma]

Will an R32 head fit on a MK3 12v block or is it only direct fit for the MK4 24v block??

[Big Boost]

No, the 24V head will not fit the 12V block. I only wish it did. Someone overseas is in the process of doing it, but it is a great deal of work to do so, i.e. expensive. It's better off to start with a 24V long block.

[joemomma]

No, the 24V head will not fit the 12V block. I only wish it did. Someone overseas is in the process of doing it, but it is a great deal of work to do so, i.e. expensive. It's better off to start with a 24V long block.

Was just wondering since 034 has a R32 head on there car. Wasnt sure if it was originally a MK3 12v block or MK4 24v block mated to the r32 head.

[Big Boost]

Yeah, 034 has the 24V long block mated to the R32. I would love to do this one day, but the 12V should do proper justice for my needs.

[Haenszel20v]

Yeah, 034 has the 24V long block mated to the R32. I would love to do this one day, but the 12V should do proper justice for my needs.

In all reality I've noticed over the years that the *idea* of 24v's over 12v's is that they will make more power... a lot more... just like the 16v's did over the 8v's. But that's just not entirely the case. Its not an exponentially higher amount of power, if any at all. They seem to be pretty equal overall in most builds I've seen. The cost/payoff of a 24v over a 12v just isn't there. It's really amazing how much more 24v parts costs, OEM and aftermarket.... and how many FREE 12v parts you can get(entire running engines).

[solowb5.1]

I'd say the main reason is to use a r32 head. What's the highest hp numbers you've seen for the 12v?
Ya that is the sad thing of the cost differences. People do just try to give vr6 parts away lol.

[Haenszel20v]

I'd say the main reason is to use a r32 head. What's the highest hp numbers you've seen for the 12v?
Ya that is the sad thing of the cost differences. People do just try to give vr6 parts away lol.

12v's can do 800 without huge issue. It doesn't matter anyways, cuz once you get to that point all you're doing is breaking things... so all it is is more expensive to replace whatever broke, and whatever it took out with it.

Maybe that's just my view, cuz I've broken enough stuff(ha) and thrown enough money at cars(double ha) to enjoy settling into a niche and being comfortable.

[S4M3]

All the parts iam missing is the oil pan for the vr6 12v and the adapter plate fr the transmission if eny one has a good price on those pm me : 0

[solowb5.1]

If I keep my car I'd like to reach the 1k mark. Just to see what it's like. I think I have the friend resources to accommodate for parts that will need to be beefed up from breaking. I can see that it's expensive for most. I luckly got my engine for free and a lot of the parts to do this at very reasonible prices (in my mind). I just love learning and building more than anything.

[wdbdy2000s4]

12v's can do 800 without huge issue. It doesn't matter anyways, cuz once you get to that point all you're doing is breaking things... so all it is is more expensive to replace whatever broke, and whatever it took out with it.

Maybe that's just my view, cuz I've broken enough stuff(ha) and thrown enough money at cars(double ha) to enjoy settling into a niche and being comfortable.

I couldn't agree more...when you build a 1000hp car you don't set it and forget it. Things are constantly breaking and needing to be tweaked or changed. Even upgraded valvetrains don't last very long when you rev them to 9000rpm.

[bigmtnskiman]

if that's your situation, then this is NOT what you want to be doing.


yeah ahahah then wtf are you going to be doing the swap?

[Haenszel20v]

I couldn't agree more...when you build a 1000hp car you don't set it and forget it. Things are constantly breaking and needing to be tweaked or changed.

This doesn't sink in to most.

1,000 hp is great. It'll be super awesome that one time you put your foot into it and it shreds all 4 down the highway with your hair flapping in the breeze. But halfway through the gear your heart is going to sink when something in your drivetrain dismantles itself at 150mph. And if you've built it strong enough to keep it together, your wallet is going to be about $50k lighter. In just parts. Either way you'll end up depressed.

[veggiemonster]

so. how expensive is this shit? since you guys are fairly far along, and i'm sorry but 1000+ posts is beyond me reading it all

[Haenszel20v]

so. how expensive is this shit? since you guys are fairly far along, and i'm sorry but 1000+ posts is beyond me reading it all

hold.

[bigmtnskiman]

so. how expensive is this shit? since you guys are fairly far along, and i'm sorry but 1000+ posts is beyond me reading it all




reading it all is a shit ton easier than doing it!

[wdbdy2000s4]

so. how expensive is this shit? since you guys are fairly far along, and i'm sorry but 1000+ posts is beyond me reading it all

I'm really interested to see how inexpensively this can be done. If you're going to ball with a $5000 clutch and billet turbo like justin then obviously things will get pricey quick, but I'd like to see how cost-effectively this can be done if parts are piecemealed off of different cars.. Based on Brian's knowledge and experience I'm sure he is saving a bundle on parts and ungodly amounts by doing the labor himself.

[Haenszel20v]

I'm really interested to see how inexpensively this can be done. If you're going to ball with a $5000 clutch and billet turbo like justin then obviously things will get pricey quick, but I'd like to see how cost-effectively this can be done if parts are piecemealed off of different cars.. Based on Brian's knowledge and experience I'm sure he is saving a bundle on parts and ungodly amounts by doing the labor himself.

ok. I dialed it up real quick. If someone was going to do this FULL BUILD. Meaning start with nothing, and go all out. 100% all out, looking for 1,000hp-stylz at retail price.

Zero labor, Zero machine work included, Zero room for fuckups.

rods/pistons 1400
main bearings 75
rod bearings 75
arp mains 200
arp headstuds 200
hg set 200
cams 550
springs/retainers 400
S4 Drivetrain 1200
Injectors 480
fx850 2500
mount brackets 150
Trans adapter 210
starter 425
timing chain 200
Oil pan 500
Fuel Rail 95
port job/+1mm valves 1000
wiring 400
AWE DTS 250
Turbo 1400
2x044 pumps 400
surge rail(dual pump) 75
surge tank 100
fuel lines 180
heat wrap 35
tial BOV 200
Autronic sm4 1400
throttle body 200
Silicon couplings 100
Inline oil filter(feed line) 40
oil lines 100
water/meth 600
exhaust 600
IC Piping 100
Oil Cooler Lines 120
2x Tial MVS 500
AC/Alt/PS/Tensinoer 125
Cooling Fans 55
FMIC Core 450
Coolant Jug/filler neck 120
AC lines 50
Radiator lines/Clt Reservoir 300
Downpipe 200
intake mani 100
t4 Gasket/wg gasket 20
Twin Scroll Exh mani 250
BOV flange 20

18350

Then tack on $2-3k for random stuff you forgot about.

wow.

[NYEuroTuner]

A little surprise today =)


http://i101.photobucket.com/albums/m58/Enviousvw/IMG_0533.jpg
http://i101.photobucket.com/albums/m58/Enviousvw/IMG_0534.jpg
http://i101.photobucket.com/albums/m58/Enviousvw/IMG_0536.jpg
http://i101.photobucket.com/albums/m58/Enviousvw/IMG_0537.jpg
http://i101.photobucket.com/albums/m58/Enviousvw/IMG_0538.jpg

Brakes are HUGE!

Thanks Issam for recommending JHM and their brake kit, and thank you DAN!!!!!!!!!!!! [up] [up]

[solowb5.1]

twin scroll manifold for 250. Love to see that one.

[Haenszel20v]

twin scroll manifold for 250. Love to see that one.

There's one on my car. Remember, materials only. ZERO LABOR in those numbers.

[TweetsS4Estate]

where is the motor in your numbers add $3800 for a 3.6L vr6 and then add money for a custom sheet metal intake manifold we priced out a swap for antoan s4 for $23k parts only

[Haenszel20v]

where is the motor in your numbers add $3800 for a 3.6L vr6 and then add money for a custom sheet metal intake manifold we priced out a swap for antoan s4 for $23k parts only

sorry, thatlist is for a 12v, which is free essentially, and $100 in parts for a manifold.... which is in there.

[AudiSportB5S4]

A little surprise today =)
Brakes are HUGE!

Thanks Issam for recommending JHM and their brake kit, and thank you DAN!!!!!!!!!!!! [up] [up]

I just got these installed <3 weeks ago... You'll be SO happy with them. Makes the braking feel so much powerful and actually makes the car feel lighter because of how well it stops.

[AudiSportB5S4]

I haven't been following this thread as its 26 pages long, but do any of these cars plan on running locally to the tri-state, like at Englishtown anytime soon? I'd love to see one of these move in person!

[Haenszel20v]

I haven't been following this thread as its 26 pages long, but do any of these cars plan on running locally to the tri-state, like at Englishtown anytime soon? I'd love to see one of these move in person!

I was supposed to be at E-town this weekend.... but alas... things change.

Next show'n'go.... october or whenever it is... I'll be there.

[NYEuroTuner]

I just got these installed <3 weeks ago... You'll be SO happy with them. Makes the braking feel so much powerful and actually makes the car feel lighter because of how well it stops.

Yea man cant wait to install these, just trying to piece the car back together.lol


I haven't been following this thread as its 26 pages long, but do any of these cars plan on running locally to the tri-state, like at Englishtown anytime soon? I'd love to see one of these move in person!

Justin "NYCVR6" runs/ran at Englishtown but snapped his axels, I believe he is planning to be there at waterfest, not sure, maybe he'll come and chime in on that one...

[twinevos4]

justin will be at the track at least 10 times before waterfest. justin is the only one that tracks his car like he stole it on this forum,oh yeh guruman too but justin knows how to drive :)

[veggiemonster]

ok. I dialed it up real quick. If someone was going to do this FULL BUILD. Meaning start with nothing, and go all out. 100% all out, looking for 1,000hp-stylz at retail price.

Zero labor, Zero machine work included, Zero room for fuckups.

rods/pistons 1400
main bearings 75
rod bearings 75
arp mains 200
arp headstuds 200
hg set 200
cams 550
springs/retainers 400
S4 Drivetrain 1200
Injectors 480
fx850 2500
mount brackets 150
Trans adapter 210
starter 425
timing chain 200
Oil pan 500
Fuel Rail 95
port job/+1mm valves 1000
wiring 400
AWE DTS 250
Turbo 1400
2x044 pumps 400
surge rail(dual pump) 75
surge tank 100
fuel lines 180
heat wrap 35
tial BOV 200
Autronic sm4 1400
throttle body 200
Silicon couplings 100
Inline oil filter(feed line) 40
oil lines 100
water/meth 600
exhaust 600
IC Piping 100
Oil Cooler Lines 120
2x Tial MVS 500
AC/Alt/PS/Tensinoer 125
Cooling Fans 55
FMIC Core 450
Coolant Jug/filler neck 120
AC lines 50
Radiator lines/Clt Reservoir 300
Downpipe 200
intake mani 100
t4 Gasket/wg gasket 20
Twin Scroll Exh mani 250
BOV flange 20

18350

Then tack on $2-3k for random stuff you forgot about.

wow.

damn. but thats 1000 hp?

don't have to go through and total up again, but estimate on say...650whp setup? 650 on race that is. i'm just trying to see if this is even within my realm of fiscal abilities before i spend a month researching everything lol

[veggiemonster]

I'm really interested to see how inexpensively this can be done. If you're going to ball with a $5000 clutch and billet turbo like justin then obviously things will get pricey quick, but I'd like to see how cost-effectively this can be done if parts are piecemealed off of different cars.. Based on Brian's knowledge and experience I'm sure he is saving a bundle on parts and ungodly amounts by doing the labor himself.

thats what i was wondering. a 3.6 vr6 swap for me? hell no... but a 2.8 with a decent terb and some race gas. i dont need 800 hp. not yet at least. lol. 250 whp, then 430ish, now i want 650ish(im losing this battle obviously). and trying to see the easiest/funnest way to get that.

[solowb5.1]

It doesn't really matter between 12v or 24v. You're looking at the 20k mark +/- a couple grand.

Again I'd love to SEE this twin scroll that was made with 250 dollars worth of parts.

FYI the new revision s4 axels are solid tubes and not hollow which should help on axel shearing

[veggiemonster]

It doesn't really matter between 12v or 24v. You're looking at the 20k mark +/- a couple grand.

Again I'd love to SEE this twin scroll that was made with 250 dollars worth of parts.

FYI the new revision s4 axels are solid tubes and not hollow which should help on axel shearing

but. a 2.8=$0-1000 right?

3.6 $4000. lots more monies. minus a pump, etc etc. smaller cheaper turbo, etcetc.

[Haenszel20v]

Again I'd love to SEE this twin scroll that was made with 250 dollars worth of parts.

There's about 20 pictures of it in my thread. You seem very concerned.

[wdbdy2000s4]

thats what i was wondering. a 3.6 vr6 swap for me? hell no... but a 2.8 with a decent terb and some race gas. i dont need 800 hp. not yet at least. lol. 250 whp, then 430ish, now i want 650ish(im losing this battle obviously). and trying to see the easiest/funnest way to get that.
I honestly think this could be done for around $10k if you do all the work and skimp on some of the more "baller" parts. You save a lot of money because you have a lot of parts that could be used and a lot of the parts from that list aren't necessary for a lower hp number. You can skimp on the valve job, the autotronic, and s4 drivetrain. You can also sell your s4 motor and a bunch of other stuff to offset the cost. If you're going for a reliable 1000whp then I would expect about $20k.

[TweetsS4Estate]

for 1000hp it takes $23k in parts you cannot forget about how expensive the fueling is new lines fittings ect dual pumps surge tanks. custom intake manifold and throttle body ect

[veggiemonster]

I honestly think this could be done for around $10k if you do all the work and skimp on some of the more "baller" parts. You save a lot of money because you have a lot of parts that could be used and a lot of the parts from that list aren't necessary for a lower hp number. You can skimp on the valve job, the autotronic, and s4 drivetrain. You can also sell your s4 motor and a bunch of other stuff to offset the cost. If you're going for a reliable 1000whp then I would expect about $20k.

so then its really no difference than a gt s4. in all the parts listed, it doesnt include the suspension or anything either. or the shit yuo need to *legally* go down the track with that power.

i'd rather do rods/nitrous on k04's or rs6's. just rods. 550-600 whp on a setup like that would be worth 650ish on a single turbo car

[solowb5.1]

I've been in a couple stagged s4s and they all feel the same. One had low mods, another has a decent amount (still on k03s, and the last one has rs6s on it with a good amount of mods. The thing is they won't be as fun as a boosted vr.

Didn't know you had a build thread H.

[NYCVR6]

justin will be at the track at least 10 times before waterfest. justin is the only one that tracks his car like he stole it on this forum,oh yeh guruman too but justin knows how to drive :)

Thanks..This definitely would have been the case if i hadnt blown my knee out spinning a 50 foot hit at mount snow skiing a month and a half back. I had surgery 2 weeks ago and things are coming along slowly and steadily. The car I am putting some schrick 268's in and springs and retainers and going back to the dyno asap. I hope to be at the track in a month or so, but ill definitely be at waterfest.

[NYCVR6]

12v's can do 800 without huge issue.

Make 800whp, race the car for a year and then come back and say this. Me and my group of friends have been pushing 12v's for years now, and when you get close to 800whp you will have head lifting issues pretty much no matter which way you look at it. My friends still work with 12v's will be trying some different things this year, but we'll see. Everything you hear sounds great (USP's car), but they dont talk about all the problems and parts breaking, just the good news. We will be pushing 24v vr's the same to see if they have the same problem, we will see how my car holds up when we make over 750. I hope the heads dont lift the same, but as of now we havent had any problems.

[Haenszel20v]

Make 800whp, race the car for a year and then come back and say this. Me and my group of friends have been pushing 12v's for years now, and when you get close to 800whp you will have head lifting issues pretty much no matter which way you look at it. My friends still work with 12v's will be trying some different things this year, but we'll see. Everything you hear sounds great (USP's car), but they dont talk about all the problems and parts breaking, just the good news. We will be pushing 24v vr's the same to see if they have the same problem, we will see how my car holds up when we make over 750. I hope the heads dont lift the same, but as of now we havent had any problems.

I know more about blowing shit up than I care to take credit for.

[Sales@RAI]

I know more about blowing shit up than I care to take credit for.

I *ALMOST* put this in my sig

[Sales@RAI]

I honestly think this could be done for around $10k if you do all the work and skimp on some of the more "baller" parts. You save a lot of money because you have a lot of parts that could be used and a lot of the parts from that list aren't necessary for a lower hp number. You can skimp on the valve job, the autotronic, and s4 drivetrain. You can also sell your s4 motor and a bunch of other stuff to offset the cost. If you're going for a reliable 1000whp then I would expect about $20k.

Dude, Brian (Haenszel) is really modest, but keep in mind his list is WITHOUT labor, everything is at cost. Unless you have the ability to fabricate mounts, intake manifold, exhaust manifold, exhaust, IC piping, etc, add ~$2500... His builds are probably the cheapest (before he has to do them 5 times) out of anyone here.

[Haenszel20v]

Dude, Brian (Haenszel) is really modest, but keep in mind his list is WITHOUT labor, everything is at cost. Unless you have the ability to fabricate mounts, intake manifold, exhaust manifold, exhaust, IC piping, etc, add ~$2500... His builds are probably the cheapest (before he has to do them 5 times) out of anyone here.

I also upped the prices to "retail" price for what most people will pay. That literally tacked on 30% to the entire build cost.

[solowb5.1]

So 12v vr6 firing order is 123, 456? If not. You didn't make a twin scroll for 250 bucks

[Haenszel20v]

So 12v vr6 firing order is 123, 456? If not. You didn't make a twin scroll for 250 bucks

you apparently do not understand how a twinscroll works.

here, I'll be nice and provide since you like to be argumentative. It's general, but It'll be ok.

http://www.modified.com/tech/modp-0906-twin-scroll-turbo-system-design/scavenging-effect.html

[NYCVR6]

I know more about blowing shit up than I care to take credit for.

If that's a fact, you wouldnt have said 800whp 12v vr6's can done without huge issues, because that's a lie. Do you have any or built any 800whp vr6's that have went down the track? My experience comes from the some of the fastest fwd vw's in the World. My friend went mid 9's with a 12v vr6 in a jetta probably 8 years ago.. We have pushed the limits, and 800 seems to be the breaking point in my opinion. Show me a 800+whp 12v vr6 that has went down the track more than 30 passes without having a head lifting issue. You have to keep in mind that the majority of people around here arent fabricators, dont have spare motors sitting around. Dont sell them false dreams and make them think that its easy to make that power with that motor and it be reliable.

[TweetsS4Estate]

If that's a fact, you wouldnt have said 800whp 12v vr6's can done without huge issues, because that's a lie. Do you have any or built any 800whp vr6's that have went down the track? My experience comes from the some of the fastest fwd vw's in the World. My friend went mid 9's with a 12v vr6 in a jetta probably 8 years ago.. We have pushed the limits, and 800 seems to be the breaking point in my opinion. Show me a 800+whp 12v vr6 that has went down the track more than 30 passes without having a head lifting issue. You have to keep in mind that the majority of people around here arent fabricators, dont have spare motors sitting around. Dont sell them false dreams and make them think that its easy to make that power with that motor and it be reliable.

Well If you O-ring the block and put 13mm head studs like my buddy did on his 24v vr6 project you will never lift the head!!!! USP has a O-ringed block and they dont have issues.....I plan on making 800whp on my 3L hta 28rs build!

[NewJerseyDevil]

[race][=(]

[URHank]

I dont know if this helps anybody, but this is the list for a car we just swapped. THe car was already IIc equipt with a lot of go fast parts, but this is what it totaled to.

IIc 1700/1000
Audi 20vt coils x 6 60
92k mile obd2 vr6 125
Intermediate plate 200
Startor 034ms 425
used 75lb injectors 200
IMS fuel rail -8 95
Pushlock -10 in -6 return 135
Aluminum motor mounts 375
034ms Flywheel 425
Southbend stage 5 clutch 625
ARP head studs(used) 125
Headspacer used 125
ATP turbo mani(used) 120 4735
GT35r used 700
Coolant turbo lines pushloc 80
034ms downpipe 400
Tial 38mm gate(new 2nd hand) 200
Intercooler ebay 90
IC piping(2.5 in 3" out) 60
Summit 12" fans(2x45) 90
Radiator lines(OEM pieced) 60
Air filter K&N 50
Custom intake piping 75
Fuel labs FPR 120
044 fuel pump 225
Tial BOV 50mm used 120
new plug wires 130
Intake manifold(custom) 525

Total 7650 with another 2500 in labor to assemble so 10,150 for a 500whp car.

That is everything really down to plug wires and turbos. This is all retail prices from retailers like 034ms for things like IM's downpipes, exc. Alot of the parts were bought used, and this helped the price a bit... This is what it would cost for the average person doing the swap.

Obviously, I have done a bit of fabrication in the past, and my personal car is going to be completed for under 4 grand at a 500whp state. Thats with my own labor, my own parts and purchasing the parts that make sense to, ie things that would cost me more to do than buy.

http://i489.photobucket.com/albums/rr253/HankIroz/Darin%20Car/IMG_0063.jpg

http://i489.photobucket.com/albums/rr253/HankIroz/Darin%20Car/IMG_0064.jpg

http://i489.photobucket.com/albums/rr253/HankIroz/Darin%20Car/IMG_0018.jpg

http://i489.photobucket.com/albums/rr253/HankIroz/Darin%20Car/IMG_0026.jpg

http://i489.photobucket.com/albums/rr253/HankIroz/Darin%20Car/IMG_0083.jpg

http://i489.photobucket.com/albums/rr253/HankIroz/Darin%20Car/CIMG0006.jpg

[Big Boost]

^^^^^TIG welded goodness!!^^^^^^^

Nice dimes!!

[nefkntym]

^^^^^TIG welded goodness!!^^^^^^^

Nice dimes!!

Very nice!!!!

[Wizard-of-OD]

Good work Hank.

[wdbdy2000s4]

http://i489.photobucket.com/albums/rr253/HankIroz/Darin%20Car/IMG_0083.jpg

is it weird that I'm making this my background for a few days? lol

[NYCVR6]

Well If you O-ring the block and put 13mm head studs like my buddy did on his 24v vr6 project you will never lift the head!!!! USP has a O-ringed block and they dont have issues.....I plan on making 800whp on my 3L hta 28rs build!

Ive seen an oringed block lift the head as well. You dont know what issues usp has had because they dont post it when things break, trust me they have had their share of problems over the years with vr's.

[TweetsS4Estate]

Question is justin did they use 13mm head studs you have to re-drill and tap for them not many people i know do that but it works great on the e36 M3s they had that problem until they put 13mm studs and o-ringed the block.. also what do you think of pyrimid rings?

[NYCVR6]

Question is justin did they use 13mm head studs you have to re-drill and tap for them not many people i know do that but it works great on the e36 M3s they had that problem until they put 13mm studs and o-ringed the block.. also what do you think of pyrimid rings?

This experience is with 12v vr6's, i know they did use bigger studs, but im not sure the size they went with. I have no personal experience with pyramid rings, from what ive heard and read they seem like a great idea. I know a lot of high power bmw's use them. I was just trying to make a point that maybe the original post about 800whp with no major problems was a false promise to your average Joe. People like myself, probably haenszel, and yourself are willing to push the bar, deal with breaking things. Most people want something fully reliable they can drive for years with no problems, that's not a 800whp vr6.

[wdbdy2000s4]

Most people want something fully reliable they can drive for years with no problems, that's not a 800whp vw or audi.
fixed.

[NYCVR6]

fixed.

Very true

[TweetsS4Estate]

This experience is with 12v vr6's, i know they did use bigger studs, but im not sure the size they went with. I have no personal experience with pyramid rings, from what ive heard and read they seem like a great idea. I know a lot of high power bmw's use them. I was just trying to make a point that maybe the original post about 800whp with no major problems was a false promise to your average Joe. People like myself, probably haenszel, and yourself are willing to push the bar, deal with breaking things. Most people want something fully reliable they can drive for years with no problems, that's not a 800whp vr6.


oh yeah i totally agree but when is a 600+whp car that was only 200hp stock ever going to be reliable? now a zr1 with bolt ons is reliable but no 200hp car stock that is now making 1000 CHP is ever going to be headache free!!! I'm speaking from experience in the M3 world where cylinder walls are paper thin and are mixing coolant because of it now the vr6 is set up waaaay nicer so i use the m3 ideals like 13mm head studs like the supra's use and put down 1500whp and then mix it with a 0-ringed block you should be all right for at least 10k miles! then replace headgasket! and studs and go on your way

[NYCVR6]

oh yeah i totally agree but when is a 600+whp car that was only 200hp stock ever going to be reliable? now a zr1 with bolt ons is reliable but no 200hp car stock that is now making 1000 CHP is ever going to be headache free!!! I'm speaking from experience in the M3 world where cylinder walls are paper thin and are mixing coolant because of it now the vr6 is set up waaaay nicer so i use the m3 ideals like 13mm head studs like the supra's use and put down 1500whp and then mix it with a 0-ringed block you should be all right for at least 10k miles! then replace headgasket! and studs and go on your way

In theory i totally agree, but there are way too many variables to compare a supra motor, vr6 and bmw straight 6. Stud placement, clamping force, coolant passage routes, etc.. Im just seeing a lot of this im building a 800whp vr stuff lately like its an easy and reliable thing to do because a couple people did it.

Haenszel, you run today at show and go? I read in the drag forum that you were probably going.. What's the word?

[TweetsS4Estate]

hansel blew his car up i believe

[NYCVR6]

hansel blew his car up i believe

Really?! Id like to know what went wrong if he did break it. Also, how much power they made with this car already.

[Alkivar]

my mechanic is about to build a VR6 big turbo S4 project... when he gets around to starting it I will document the whole process... he's estimating 10-11 grand including parts and he already has the 24v VR motor.

[jibberjive]

Thanks..This definitely would have been the case if i hadnt blown my knee out spinning a 50 foot hit at mount snow skiing a month and a half back. I had surgery 2 weeks ago and things are coming along slowly and steadily.
Almost did the same thing this weekend. I cased the biggest kicker at Park City in the worst way possible on Sat. The snow was super wet (spring riding obviously) and I wasn't prepared with warm weather wax. I see the skiers ahead of me make it just fine from where we all were, so I bombed it and freaking splatted on the upside of the landing. Thought I tore something in my knee, but I think I'm all right thank goodness. I feel for you! My brothers have torn multiple ACL's, MCL's, and re-torn their donor ligaments because they're retarded. Take it easy, yeah?


I dont know if this helps anybody, but this is the list for a car we just swapped. THe car was already IIc equipt with a lot of go fast parts, but this is what it totaled to.

IIc 1700/1000
Audi 20vt coils x 6 60
92k mile obd2 vr6 125
Intermediate plate 200
Startor 034ms 425
used 75lb injectors 200
IMS fuel rail -8 95
Pushlock -10 in -6 return 135
Aluminum motor mounts 375
034ms Flywheel 425
Southbend stage 5 clutch 625
ARP head studs(used) 125
Headspacer used 125
ATP turbo mani(used) 120 4735
GT35r used 700
Coolant turbo lines pushloc 80
034ms downpipe 400
Tial 38mm gate(new 2nd hand) 200
Intercooler ebay 90
IC piping(2.5 in 3" out) 60
Summit 12" fans(2x45) 90
Radiator lines(OEM pieced) 60
Air filter K&N 50
Custom intake piping 75
Fuel labs FPR 120
044 fuel pump 225
Tial BOV 50mm used 120
new plug wires 130
Intake manifold(custom) 525

Total 7650 with another 2500 in labor to assemble so 10,150 for a 500whp car.

That is everything really down to plug wires and turbos. This is all retail prices from retailers like 034ms for things like IM's downpipes, exc. Alot of the parts were bought used, and this helped the price a bit... This is what it would cost for the average person doing the swap.

Obviously, I have done a bit of fabrication in the past, and my personal car is going to be completed for under 4 grand at a 500whp state. Thats with my own labor, my own parts and purchasing the parts that make sense to, ie things that would cost me more to do than buy.


Nice Hank! It would be sick to see this beast around town, or is it up north?

[NYCVR6]

Almost did the same thing this weekend. I cased the biggest kicker at Park City in the worst way possible on Sat. The snow was super wet (spring riding obviously) and I wasn't prepared with warm weather wax. I see the skiers ahead of me make it just fine from where we all were, so I bombed it and freaking splatted on the upside of the landing. Thought I tore something in my knee, but I think I'm all right thank goodness. I feel for you! My brothers have torn multiple ACL's, MCL's, and re-torn their donor ligaments because they're retarded. Take it easy, yeah?



Nice Hank! It would be sick to see this beast around town, or is it up north?

I overshot a little and landed all the way at the bottom of the landing, i was over rotated slightly and im guessing that might be why i popped my knee. I plan to get back to skiing next season and the park too, but ill be taking it easy at first.

[butamironin]

i was thinking today, wouldn't it be awesome if someone took 911(997) engine and transsmision combo(pDK preferrably) and did a swap into, let say nogaro blue s4 avant(start drooling here)... And then went to ac schnitzer to get the power up.... Is it too extreme and expensive? [confused]

P.S. on a sidenote, is there anyone tryed using porsche's gearboxes in audi cars? since they make turbo it can be awd and i might think it was built for more hp from the beginning so i think they are more robust than s4 manuals... (if you are building a big turbo vr6 beast, one might think bout new options for tranny upgrading)

[URHank]

Almost did the same thing this weekend. I cased the biggest kicker at Park City in the worst way possible on Sat. The snow was super wet (spring riding obviously) and I wasn't prepared with warm weather wax. I see the skiers ahead of me make it just fine from where we all were, so I bombed it and freaking splatted on the upside of the landing. Thought I tore something in my knee, but I think I'm all right thank goodness. I feel for you! My brothers have torn multiple ACL's, MCL's, and re-torn their donor ligaments because they're retarded. Take it easy, yeah?



Nice Hank! It would be sick to see this beast around town, or is it up north?

Park City was epic last weekend on Saturday. McConkey's was silly sick. The tree's on the east of the bowl were in atleast 3 feet of new. I lapped 8 rides of untracked till about noon, and by then it was starting to firm up feeling like spring.

The CQ is in Draper. My URQ is under the knife again though. Getting an 01e and an hta 35r/tial housing. Should be a riot.

[Big Boost]

http://i1026.photobucket.com/albums/y325/robbie40/VR6%20Turbo%20Conversion/IMG_9946.jpg?t=1293628380

[twinevos4]

how much for those bellmouths???

[solowb5.1]

Updates
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[S4M3]

I need a OIL pan for my 12v Vr6 everything else i have if any one has a good deal on a oil pan let me know thnaks

[NYEuroTuner]

I need a OIL pan for my 12v Vr6 everything else i have if any one has a good deal on a oil pan let me know thnaks

http://inaengineering.com/ Just give Issam a call [up]

[solowb5.1]

Did you even read that link you posted...doesn't seem like it.

[wdbdy2000s4]

Did you even read that link you posted...doesn't seem like it.
what are you talking about? Call the number on the site and Isaam will hook up the oil pan as previously stated...I fail to see the issue.

[Raacerx]

I haven't read through these 27 pages, but...

Has anyone been able to effectively move the engine back? That thing is hanging way more in front then the 2.7; even worse weight distribution then before? Is the VR6 really lighter with all that plumbing and manifolds and such? What is the issue with just cutting the firewall and stuffing that thing a good 8" back? Too much of an angle on the CV joints? I know everyone is just doing 1/4 mile racing with these things, but if someone were going to do this for a track car, like 034 has, why hasn't anyone put any time into moving the engine back (including 034)?

[solowb5.1]

I wasn't talking about that, but the twin scroll article to explain how it functions.

The drivetrain stays in it's orig position. Just the engine is pushed forward due to the adaptor plate. If you eliminated the plate then you'll have to research what clutch/flywheel/starter combo is going to work for you. Which wouldn't be to hard.

[Raacerx]

I wasn't talking about that, but the twin scroll article to explain how it functions.

The drivetrain stays in it's orig position. Just the engine is pushed forward due to the adaptor plate. If you eliminated the plate then you'll have to research what clutch/flywheel/starter combo is going to work for you. Which wouldn't be to hard.

No i understand things stay in their original position. I'm saying thats bullshit, since the engine is overhanging a good 8" farther forward then the 2.7TT. I know people aren't doing this for weight distribution, and 034 did it primarily for easy turbo swap and block strength, but it seems that after the B5 being around for so freakin long, that SOMEONE would have moved everything back. Even 4", keeping the same wheel location up front, would dramatically help braking and turn in and balance. Think about what 8" could do. I know companies make custom extra wide mouth CV joints. Just seems to me, that if you could figure out the axle shaft issue, then it would be cake (cake in that you are already doing tons of custom fab, so a bit more isn't that hard or expensive). Mounting the engine/drivetrain to the car is easy. Shifter linkage could simply be cut down, run a custom 1 piece driveshaft in the back (cheap). There is almost nothing else in the way that a bit of hammer/fab work couldn't take care of.

I mean people are hacking up the frames, why not hack a bit more?

[NYCVR6]

I mean people are hacking up the frames, why not hack a bit more?

There's no frame hacking needed to put a 24v vr6 in a b5. The rad support has to be hacked, but that's just plastic for the most part. Who says the 2.7t in the b5 is a good weight distribution? I think it's a decent handling car at best. Obviously i didnt build mine to turn, but if i did, i sure wouldnt assume the geometry of the oem motor is ideal.

[NYCVR6]

How come haenszel hasnt posted up what happened? Updates please!

[URHank]

I believe he had an injector failure that melted a single piston. His project thread in the a4 projects section says that he is rebuilding right now, and ordered new injectors. HTH

And to the other projects posted, nice progress. They look like monsters

[solowb5.1]

http://i139.photobucket.com/albums/q305/solowb5/Audi%20Avant%20lifeline/DSCN0787.jpg
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[NYCVR6]

I believe he had an injector failure that melted a single piston. His project thread in the a4 projects section says that he is rebuilding right now, and ordered new injectors. HTH

Maybe he didnt want to come back here and update after saying you can make 800 hp with no major problems, then blew his motor. I doubt he was making near 800 hp as well. This was my point, if everyone believes things like that, when they melt a piston they are going to whine and complain. To the select few who know what it takes to make that power, rebuilding motors is part of the game.

[GURUMAN]

Maybe he didnt want to come back here and update after saying you can make 800 hp with no major problems, then blew his motor. I doubt he was making near 800 hp as well. This was my point, if everyone believes things like that, when they melt a piston they are going to whine and complain. To the select few who know what it takes to make that power, rebuilding motors is part of the game.

Well said, same story with the V6,

A GT kit alone on 30 psi will not pop a 10 sec run !

[URHank]

to be fair, he melted the motor before he posted that comment. I agree though in the sense that power is neither cheap or easy to do.

[wdbdy2000s4]

I agree though in the sense that power is neither cheap or easy to do.
It just depends on the motor. An LSx can be built for $5k and it will hold 1000 hp all day. Generally, it's much harder to build a reliable high hp small displacement motor. A 2JZ is obviously an exception b/c it can handle 900hp on stock block.

[antoanS4]

It just depends on the motor. An LSx can be built for $5k and it will hold 1000 hp all day. Generally, it's much harder to build a reliable high hp small displacement motor. A 2JZ is obviously an exception b/c it can handle 900hp on stock block.

X2

[TweetsS4Estate]

All It takes is boost and good flowing head,intake manifold,exhaust manifold!!!!!

[Raacerx]

There's no frame hacking needed to put a 24v vr6 in a b5. The rad support has to be hacked, but that's just plastic for the most part. Who says the 2.7t in the b5 is a good weight distribution? I think it's a decent handling car at best. Obviously i didnt build mine to turn, but if i did, i sure wouldnt assume the geometry of the oem motor is ideal.

Sorry, I wasn't specific NYC. I didn't mean you guys with the VR6. I mean people are doing that in general in cars. Please don't get me in wrong in that I think the VR6 swap is really cool and I like it. I am just trying to figure out why, if you are going to this length of work (not that it is that much work), but why couldn't you just move everything back? Custom motor mounts? I am not arguing, literally asking, hahaha. For 1/4 mile, i assume a front wheel weight is maybe good on AWD car? I have no idea. I am just interested in weight distribution, and since the 2.7T has better weight distribution (which yeah, is still horrible), I am just wondering if there is anything to be done for this. Cause I think a VR6-T would be a great engine for the road track, if the overhanging front weight could be dealt with at least a bit better (obviously the same goes for the 2.7T).

[NYCVR6]

to be fair, he melted the motor before he posted that comment. I agree though in the sense that power is neither cheap or easy to do.

In which case he should have been even smarter than to make that comment.. haha Im not starting shit, just telling it how it is. 800hp is not easy, and will never be reliable from any of these motors. Hell melted a motor, and didnt make 400whp. My car first dyno pull was 500+whp on a mustang dyno.. I know what it takes to do this, and i would never say it's easily done with no major problems.

[NYCVR6]

Sorry, I wasn't specific NYC. I didn't mean you guys with the VR6. I mean people are doing that in general in cars. Please don't get me in wrong in that I think the VR6 swap is really cool and I like it. I am just trying to figure out why, if you are going to this length of work (not that it is that much work), but why couldn't you just move everything back? Custom motor mounts? I am not arguing, literally asking, hahaha. For 1/4 mile, i assume a front wheel weight is maybe good on AWD car? I have no idea. I am just interested in weight distribution, and since the 2.7T has better weight distribution (which yeah, is still horrible), I am just wondering if there is anything to be done for this. Cause I think a VR6-T would be a great engine for the road track, if the overhanging front weight could be dealt with at least a bit better (obviously the same goes for the 2.7T).

I see, you could probably push the motor back 3-4" before the water jacket is almost sitting on the primary firewall. You would need to make trans mounts, figure out if the cv's on the front axles can flex enough for that amount of change or if you have to make a custom set or cut out room for them, and shorten the rear drive shaft at the very least. It's a lot more work in my opinion.

[TweetsS4Estate]

In which case he should have been even smarter than to make that comment.. haha Im not starting shit, just telling it how it is. 800hp is not easy, and will never be reliable from any of these motors. Hell melted a motor, and didnt make 400whp. My car first dyno pull was 500+whp on a mustang dyno.. I know what it takes to do this, and i would never say it's easily done with no major problems.

Again all its takes is the right turbo the right intake and exhaust manifold a very well flowing head and tons of boost and fuel.... its easy to get 800whp out of a 6768 and 30 psi of boost 12v-24v ect have a good tuner for e85 like crisspeed and a good standalone your all set!

[NYCVR6]

Again all its takes is the right turbo the right intake and exhaust manifold a very well flowing head and tons of boost and fuel.... its easy to get 800whp out of a 6768 and 30 psi of boost 12v-24v ect have a good tuner for e85 like crisspeed and a good standalone your all set!

That's bullshit. Show me how many 800+whp 12 and 24v there are in the world.. I mean ones that actually make that power and lay down times at the track... Have you built one, since it's easy?

[TweetsS4Estate]

I plan on building a 3.6L VR6 sleeved ect ect I will not stop until it lays down 1000AWHP.... Thats after my 3LGT avant is done me and my buddy have a donar A4 that we will be gutted and have a s4 tranny with r34 rear diff ect ect fully built with nothing less then a 88mm turbo on it!!! motec m600 standalone ect... but i have my avant to worry about and he has his 3L sedan to worry about.... It's this winters project!

[TweetsS4Estate]

That's bullshit. Show me how many 800+whp 12 and 24v there are in the world.. I mean ones that actually make that power and lay down times at the track... Have you built one, since it's easy?

So many 800awhp evo's because of that! head intake and exhaust manifold huge turbo alot of boost end result power!!!

[TweetsS4Estate]

That's bullshit. Show me how many 800+whp 12 and 24v there are in the world.. I mean ones that actually make that power and lay down times at the track... Have you built one, since it's easy?

And also why did you sell your 3L gt30 build it was very capable of 800whp thats what my ard/3L will put down!!! if your vr6 wont do it then why did you sell that?

[blmlozz]

So many 800awhp evo's because of that! head intake and exhaust manifold huge turbo alot of boost end result power!!!

contrary to popular belief, 800WHP Evo's are not a dime a dozen..

[twinevos4]

do i hear a tweaty bird? tweat tweat i give the tweaty bird 8 months and he wont have one 600 hp car. someone is in lala land

[TweetsS4Estate]

you don't believe a 3L with a standalone and 2860s is capable of 600whp?

[NYEuroTuner]

you don't believe a 3L with a standalone and 2860s is capable of 600whp?


No one said that, but your spewing out that its so simple.. " All it takes, I plan on, I will have " Are not good words to use in a sentence when trying to prove a point FYI...


Again, no one here is bashing you, but your running around telling everyone about HP you havent made on cars you havent finished..



Take a chill pill brotha... [;)]

[NYCVR6]

And also why did you sell your 3L gt30 build it was very capable of 800whp thats what my ard/3L will put down!!! if your vr6 wont do it then why did you sell that?

I sold it because i like the idea of a practically inline 6 in that car, much easier to work on and cleaner. I also know VR6's very well. I like how you are claiming you are going to make 800whp and havent done anything yet... Make the power then talk. I think my vr6 is capable of 800whp, my argument is at that power a motor is no longer reliable by any means, and it is very expensive to do. I have made 650whp with it already with just one short tuning session, how far i am going to push it im not sure yet, i will definitely make 750whp though for track use only.. Im not talking about evo's anywhere so i dont know where that comment came from.. Show me how many 800+whp vr6's there are that havent broken at one time, or even 2.7t's for that matter... Everyone loves the on paper claims, you know on paper this will make xxx whp, and so on.. In real life it doesnt work out so sweet usually. Im not arguing man, just stating my opinion that's all, and my opinion comes fromactual experience.. I made 670whp from a 12v vr6 in 2001... Hopefully things work out so easily for you.. But me personally, at the power levels im at, i dont consider the car reliable.. Sure ill be driving it down to h20, and probably be doing some street racing.. But i know damn well that there is a decent chance i could end up breaking something.. It's part of the game, you want to make crazy power from a motor that wasnt factory built with a lot of power, shit is going to break..

[GURUMAN]

I wouldnt be surprise if I can pop a low 11 sec run, maybe even a high 10 sec only on motor ! If not I will use a ZEX 125 hp shot ...

But according to some e-smarts, I couldnt drive my car at all on the track !


I'm just looking forward to all the (me will beat you) projects (me will have 800whp)

[GURUMAN]

I guess when you quit the E-environment, and you actually go at the track with a 600 whp + car for REAL, the you really understand what an 600 whp + Audi is...

[URHank]

http://i139.photobucket.com/albums/q305/solowb5/Audi%20Avant%20lifeline/DSCN0787.jpg
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I am asking just to learn. Why put the turbo down low instead of over above the frame rail? I have seen a few b5's with both 1.8t and vr6 motors that do not want to use that room.

[jibberjive]

Park City was epic last weekend on Saturday. McConkey's was silly sick. The tree's on the east of the bowl were in atleast 3 feet of new. I lapped 8 rides of untracked till about noon, and by then it was starting to firm up feeling like spring.

The CQ is in Draper. My URQ is under the knife again though. Getting an 01e and an hta 35r/tial housing. Should be a riot.
Nice, I definitely want to check out the URQ sometime. I know you said you're thinking of going elsewhere, do you know if you're sticking around here for a while? I've got some Audi ideas brewing (non-B5 S4, but 2.7t related), and they could use your fab skills, but if wouldn't be for a while.

[solowb5.1]

Guess you've never seen a twin scroll manifold on a 1.8t in a b5 have you? Go search where 034 got their precaged track car from and you will see what one looks like.

[URHank]

Nice, I definitely want to check out the URQ sometime. I know you said you're thinking of going elsewhere, do you know if you're sticking around here for a while? I've got some Audi ideas brewing (non-B5 S4, but 2.7t related), and they could use your fab skills, but if wouldn't be for a while.

I am here for at least 2 years, maybe more. I then will probably either be in SLC or Las Vegas where I am from. Yeah, call me up sometime, even if it is just to catch some lunch on campus or something. I keep an eye out for your mug in the CAEDM but I never see you.

And to the solowb, I didnt ask for references to pictures as to why others do it, I asked why you did it that way. Tell me it is for lower COG or to get long runners or something useful. I said in my original question tha tI have seen others putting the turbo down there, so why would you basically tell me something I already know? Are you doing it that way because everybody does it that way?

[Haenszel20v]

seriously, what is with all this hate?

This doesn't help the cause, guys.

[Big Boost]

I couldn't have said it better myself......

http://i451.photobucket.com/albums/qq236/Bodegaswift/chappelle-player-haters-ball.jpg

http://www.comedycentral.com/videos/index.jhtml?title=playa-haters-ball&videoId=24419

Anyway, this stuff is supposed to be informative and fun. Building a 800whp VR6 is easy!! It's just not cheap to do so and takes a great deal of time tuning for that horsepower level. Reliability? That's a whole 'nother story...

[TweetsS4Estate]

That's bullshit. Show me how many 800+whp 12 and 24v there are in the world.. I mean ones that actually make that power and lay down times at the track... Have you built one, since it's easy?


Hey guys, this weekend I was gone in Smiths Falls Canada for a wedding, with out any wifi or internet connection. A friend (not so great friend all of the time) got on my account and said some things to instigate this weekend. I apologize for the inconvenience and thread jacking. Guru I do respect your builds and driving ability. The only time I gave you a hard time was when I though it was clear that I was being facetious about the subject. Also in regards to making a reliable 800whp or hp v6/VR6, I know it is not cheap, trust me. I also know it takes ALOT of work to do it. as an update to the avant and the GT kit that is happening I took some pictures of the manifolds last week if you'd like I can post em up, the turbos should be in soon and the long block should be done in 2ish weeks. I'm excited to see where this thing will end up. As far as me not having a 600whp car... I am shooting for 800-900whp on race gas, I have no clue as to what it will do. I try to live by the motto, it will put down what it puts down because in the past I have been let down so many times I understand that the car doesn't always put down what you'd like (obviously that goes to a certain extent). So Guru I apologize on behalf of my friend for his insult, and NYC I am not that naive. I am looking forward to meeting you all and I can't wait to see what kind of numbers we all put down this year. It's definitely a good year for the B5 platform.[race]

[TweetsS4Estate]

With that said. Jack ass comments like this are uncalled for. Guru I have always been supportive on your builds and never showed you anything but respect. Anytime I ever teased or joked with you I have made it clear and apologized afterwords if you took it the wrong way. Even through our buyer/seller fall out I have not said one negative thing about you on this forum. Though some of my posts may have been opinionated at times, they were still with a respect to whom I was speaking and when I stand corrected I try to admit it. Yes I'm shooting for 800WHP while keeping it reliable, so what, shouldn't that be a good thing if I were to achieve it?
Twinevo, I don't even know you. You insult horribly, and to clarify, no that is not what tweets stands for.

That is my piece, I apologize Issam, I just wanted to set the record straight. I do plan on trying to finish with the avants finances this summer and I would like to begin building a VR6 car this summer so expect some phone calls from me in the nearish future[up]



I'm just looking forward to all the (me will beat you) projects (me will have 800whp)


do i hear a tweaty bird? tweat tweat i give the tweaty bird 8 months and he wont have one 600 hp car. someone is in lala land

[Big Boost]

It seems like 800whp is the latest mark you have to hit to gain respect or be competitive. It's attainable and most individuals who strive for that mark are not backed by sponsors or have a huge aftermarket support system behind their build. I fully understand as I am trying to do the same with my build. Many times guys get way over their head and in due time they part out their projects and it has happened to me once before. You have to plan your build and try to maintain a budget within reason for the project. If I was sponsored, my project would have been done over the winter but won't see the light of day until June at the earliest.

We all should be helpful to one another as VR6 conversions are just beginning to take off. The 15 or so of us who are doing it already can and should provide as much info to each other and those behind us.

[TweetsS4Estate]

That looks gorgeous! Good job with getting the back cylinders more room to breath. I've heard the rear cylinders need the air first per the firing order. absolutely beautiful work.

[Big Boost]

That looks gorgeous! Good job with getting the back cylinders more room to breath. I've heard the rear cylinders need the air first per the firing order. absolutely beautiful work.

Thank you, but I can't take credit for the fab work. That's my buddy Jon's work! Yes, it was my idea to do an equal length intake manifold, but it was his execution of the design and fabrication. No, he is not involved with any shop, but is just an incredible hobbyist. Wait until the equal length turbo manifold and the intercooler is finished!! I don't know if any turbo VR6 has had both an equal length intake and turbo manifold as a design, but it should help equalize the flow across the head. 1000bhp is my goal, but honestly if I don't hit that number I'll enjoy whatever I'm given.

[Haenszel20v]

Baller alert. Way above my budget. Looks great. I see your IC piping will be wrapping around the back, vertical core or something?

[NYCVR6]

That manifold is very nice, dont need the stacks for the offset in my opinion. Maybe it would help for part throttle low boost situations, but when that manifold/stacks/head ports are pressurized with 30+psi, those stacks wont make a damn difference.

[s2the4]

I sold it because i like the idea of a practically inline 6 in that car, much easier to work on and cleaner. I also know VR6's very well. I like how you are claiming you are going to make 800whp and havent done anything yet... Make the power then talk. I think my vr6 is capable of 800whp, my argument is at that power a motor is no longer reliable by any means, and it is very expensive to do. I have made 650whp with it already with just one short tuning session, how far i am going to push it im not sure yet, i will definitely make 750whp though for track use only.. Im not talking about evo's anywhere so i dont know where that comment came from.. Show me how many 800+whp vr6's there are that havent broken at one time, or even 2.7t's for that matter... Everyone loves the on paper claims, you know on paper this will make xxx whp, and so on.. In real life it doesnt work out so sweet usually. Im not arguing man, just stating my opinion that's all, and my opinion comes fromactual experience.. I made 670whp from a 12v vr6 in 2001... Hopefully things work out so easily for you.. But me personally, at the power levels im at, i dont consider the car reliable.. Sure ill be driving it down to h20, and probably be doing some street racing.. But i know damn well that there is a decent chance i could end up breaking something.. It's part of the game, you want to make crazy power from a motor that wasnt factory built with a lot of power, shit is going to break..

Oh the Memories of 2007! Shotgun! We need to meet up this year for sure!

[twinevos4]

justin it makes a difference,i dont want share info as we built manifolds and dyno`d them to get the info we have. but every inch and width makes a difference.him making every runner the same size and volume will ensure that each cylinder will have the same airflow at every rpm.

[NYCVR6]

justin it makes a difference,i dont want share info as we built manifolds and dyno`d them to get the info we have. but every inch and width makes a difference.him making every runner the same size and volume will ensure that each cylinder will have the same airflow at every rpm.

Id like to see proof of this.. I find it very hard to believe for peak hp numbers that that will make a difference. Theoretically speaking, when all of that (manifolds, runners and head ports) are highly pressurized, the runner length within the manifold plenum shouldnt make a difference from my perspective. Im not saying im right, i could definitely be wrong, but id like to see more info on this. I know you dont want to share info so it's hard to go anywhere from here.. We talking volume of air, or psi?

[NYCVR6]

Oh the Memories of 2007! Shotgun! We need to meet up this year for sure!

Yep some people here know what im talking about. Ill definitely be there, ill talk to you before then im sure.

[solowb5.1]

I had to design it to be able to run a maf with atleast a 6-8" straight run on the intake. I also needed it to be down there for my intake box that I am making. So with it being a twin scroll and 6 cyl it doesn't allow for it to be located behind the headlight. Those manifolds that are located there are designed for people running mafless tunes. I wanted to stay ME7 so I went with C2. Plus I can drive my car there when done for them to write me a custom tune when all said and done.

On the other note I have also read that the equal length I/M on VRs doesn't make a difference. The only ones that have used the equal length on both sides are for N/A builds. I read up as much as I could and asked some vr gurus on the what to dos and not to dos were.

[NYCVR6]

On the other note I have also read that the equal length I/M on VRs doesn't make a difference. The only ones that have used the equal length on both sides are for N/A builds. I read up as much as I could and asked some vr gurus on the what to dos and not to dos were.

That is my understanding as well.. Since we're not talking individual throttle bodies here, we are actually talking about everything being pressurized.. Like i said i could be wrong..

[solowb5.1]

A lot of different parameters make a difference in any sistuation. When you change the specs the out come result is going to change. Whether it be for better results, no results, or a decrease.

[URHank]

I had to design it to be able to run a maf with atleast a 6-8" straight run on the intake. I also needed it to be down there for my intake box that I am making. So with it being a twin scroll and 6 cyl it doesn't allow for it to be located behind the headlight. Those manifolds that are located there are designed for people running mafless tunes. I wanted to stay ME7 so I went with C2. Plus I can drive my car there when done for them to write me a custom tune when all said and done.

On the other note I have also read that the equal length I/M on VRs doesn't make a difference. The only ones that have used the equal length on both sides are for N/A builds. I read up as much as I could and asked some vr gurus on the what to dos and not to dos were.

Hey Thanks. That is good reasoning. Nice build.

[Big Boost]

justin it makes a difference,i dont want share info as we built manifolds and dyno`d them to get the info we have. but every inch and width makes a difference.him making every runner the same size and volume will ensure that each cylinder will have the same airflow at every rpm.

Exactly.[drive]

[TweetsS4Estate]

Well it has to do with the way the VR head is with the back cylinders getting air last because their on the far side of the head!

[Big Boost]

This might be a poor explanation, but think about this. In the VR6 head, there are 3 long runners and 3 short runners. Let's say at 30psi when a intake valve event occurs, how much more volume of air will enter the combustion chamber in the longer runners versus the shorter runners? Now think about this. Won't there be a higher velocity in the shorter runners yet a higher volume in the longer runners? Wouldn't this manifold equalize the volume and velocity across the head even at moderate to high boost levels? This is my thought process and why I wanted a true equal length intake manifold matched with a equal length turbo manifold.

Also, when people say that equal length manifolds don't make any difference on a VR6, have they utilized BOTH an equal length intake and turbo manifold? Again, I don't think it has been done, but I've searched and couldn't find any info on it. If you have any, please post it. Thanks.

[solowb5.1]

It's who you talk to that answers those questions. Not what you search bc people use different descriptions in their titles of explainging things so you could miss something important. Velocity is going to be extremely minimal on change in that short of a distance while being pressurized. Boost is a different animal when it comes to theories from N/A. What you want in boost is for air to flow as free and smooth as possible. The things that change and make a difference in boost would be velocity stacks, injector angles(when it applies), volume, and runner length. After that it comes into the flow of the head which then comes down to the area of the intake/exhaust valves that can only flow so much.

With using a equal length exhaust manifold also. You are probably only going to see a better spool advantage over other setups.
Are you doing a twin scroll setup? I would if I were you. That's probably going to yield the best all around results. Also what were the runner lengths that you chose on both sides?

[Big Boost]

I will have a twin scroll manifold for sure. While air will flow free in the VR6 under boost, will it flow equally across all cylinders? Most of these items you mentioned are accounted for in the design of the manifold except for injector angle. The exhaust side design will be the inverse of the intake side truly making it an equal length set up.

If you have two small chambers both filled with an equal amount of pressurized air, wouldn't the velocity be higher in the shorter chamber than in the longer one due to less distance to travel into the combustion chamber when the intake event occurs?

[Matador]

This might be a poor explanation, but think about this. In the VR6 head, there are 3 long runners and 3 short runners. Let's say at 30psi when a intake valve event occurs, how much more volume of air will enter the combustion chamber in the longer runners versus the shorter runners? Now think about this. Won't there be a higher velocity in the shorter runners yet a higher volume in the longer runners? Wouldn't this manifold equalize the volume and velocity across the head even at moderate to high boost levels? This is my thought process and why I wanted a true equal length intake manifold matched with a equal length turbo manifold.

Also, when people say that equal length manifolds don't make any difference on a VR6, have they utilized BOTH an equal length intake and turbo manifold? Again, I don't think it has been done, but I've searched and couldn't find any info on it. If you have any, please post it. Thanks.

http://i1026.photobucket.com/albums/y325/robbie40/VR6%20Turbo%20Conversion/IMG_0011.jpg?t=1271771065

In a pressurized environment the effects of the volume of the intake runner would be negated. In a vacuum, the total volume of air sitting behind the intake valve is going to be greater in the rear bank as opposed to the front bank, which in turn would fill the cylinder more effectively before drawing air from the plenum of the manifold. But in a pressurized occurence, the total amount of air will remain constant to the amount of boost given through the entire intake cycle. In other words, (say from 15psi) from the nanosecond the valve opens to the nanosecond the valve closes, the cylinder will be exposed to pressurized air at 15psi rather than relying on the vacuum of the downstroke of the cylinder to fill the chamber.

Now, that's looking at the picture as separate A and B events (vacuum and boost). Before your car builds boost, it's working off the vacuum principles in which (hooray) your design is effective. Your idle to ~2300rpm torque should be better than a manifold with equal runners and the same plenum volume. It won't be much, like 15 ft/lb max, but on the dyno it should be quantifiable. However, a short(er) runner equal length manifold would have better mid/high end performance. Tradeoffs...

[solowb5.1]

Velocity is measured in meters per sec or miles per hour and so on (I know you know this). Therefore the velocity is only measuring distance over a period of time. Velocity is only going to change if the diameter of the piping changes not the length. Only thing slowing velocity down in a longer pipe would be heat and friction. Which is a small number. This all has to do with fluid mechanics if you really want to look into it.

Either way you're not making a mistake in using one. I mainly say this bc your friend was the one that built it which would save you a lot of cash compared to others that will obviosuly have a different outlook on it.

[NYCVR6]

In a pressurized environment the effects of the volume of the intake runner would be negated. In a vacuum, the total volume of air sitting behind the intake valve is going to be greater in the rear bank as opposed to the front bank, which in turn would fill the cylinder more effectively before drawing air from the plenum of the manifold. But in a pressurized occurence, the total amount of air will remain constant to the amount of boost given through the entire intake cycle. In other words, (say from 15psi) from the nanosecond the valve opens to the nanosecond the valve closes, the cylinder will be exposed to pressurized air at 15psi rather than relying on the vacuum of the downstroke of the cylinder to fill the chamber.

Now, that's looking at the picture as separate A and B events (vacuum and boost). Before your car builds boost, it's working off the vacuum principles in which (hooray) your design is effective. Your idle to ~2300rpm torque should be better than a manifold with equal runners and the same plenum volume. It won't be much, like 15 ft/lb max, but on the dyno it should be quantifiable. However, a short(er) runner equal length manifold would have better mid/high end performance. Tradeoffs...

This is exactly what i said.. with my part throttle and low boost situations compare to full throttle/high boost (pressurized) situations. You just made it sound so much more scientific. Like i said, we arent talking individual tb's on a NA setup, we are talking a completely pressurized system mani, stacks and head ports. Dont tell me there is a difference in the VOLUME of air if you dont have those stacks evening out the port stagger, im not going to buy that. It's simple fluid dynamics. Regardless, it looks damn pretty, whether it works or not, id need serious proof. We've had 850whp 12v vr6's already from my group of friends, and not one has ever utilized staggered velocity stacks. We have one car coming up that WILL and i promise, make 1000+whp without those staggered stacks. Im just not a firm believer yet, show me some data or numbers to prove this.

[Big Boost]

This is exactly what i said.. with my part throttle and low boost situations compare to full throttle/high boost (pressurized) situations. You just made it sound so much more scientific. Like i said, we arent talking individual tb's on a NA setup, we are talking a completely pressurized system mani, stacks and head ports. Dont tell me there is a difference in the VOLUME of air if you dont have those stacks evening out the port stagger, im not going to buy that. It's simple fluid dynamics. Regardless, it looks damn pretty, whether it works or not, id need serious proof. We've had 850whp 12v vr6's already from my group of friends, and not one has ever utilized staggered velocity stacks. We have one car coming up that WILL and i promise, make 1000+whp without those staggered stacks. Im just not a firm believer yet, show me some data or numbers to prove this.

I mentioned both volume and velocity not volume exclusively. Think about this for a second. Everyone is constantly talking about high horsepower figures (i.e. 800whp to 1000whp). What about the area underneath the curve regarding power and torque delivery? I've had several people tell me that this won't make a difference, but yet no one listens to me when I tell them that this has not been done on a VR6 equalizing both intake and exhaust paths. You and others are just looking at one side of the equation. Spool up will be affected positively especially with a twin scroll turbo with a short IC path. I'm not here to argue or ask for permission about my set up, but to show others what I believe hasn't been done before and I hope this innovation opens up your eyes and others behind us doing the VR swap. It's not about who's wrong or right it's about doing different and cool shit that hasn't been done before.

[NYEuroTuner]

It's not about who's wrong or right it's about doing different and cool shit that hasn't been done before.

[up] Indeed

[NYCVR6]

I mentioned both volume and velocity not volume exclusively. Think about this for a second. Everyone is constantly talking about high horsepower figures (i.e. 800whp to 1000whp). What about the area underneath the curve regarding power and torque delivery? I've had several people tell me that this won't make a difference, but yet no one listens to me when I tell them that this has not been done on a VR6 equalizing both intake and exhaust paths. You and others are just looking at one side of the equation. Spool up will be affected positively especially with a twin scroll turbo with a short IC path. I'm not here to argue or ask for permission about my set up, but to show others what I believe hasn't been done before and I hope this innovation opens up your eyes and others behind us doing the VR swap. It's not about who's wrong or right it's about doing different and cool shit that hasn't been done before.


Cool shit? not in my opinion, i leave that for the show car people. Since you mentioned velocity as well, i dont think that will change as well. I see a full throttle setup with xx psi pushing against the intake valves exactly the same whether or not you equalized the runner length. Im all about function, not to mention VW didnt stagger the intake manifold from the factory.. I didnt say you need my permission so just relax.. I understand there is an area of the curve under peak hp, i dont think that area will be changed by those staggered stacks at full throttle either. I know quite a bit about all this silly car stuff. Ill stick to my opinion until you prove me wrong some how, i just dont see that happening at all. It's a educated debate here, so i dont know why you're getting all defensive. As of now we KNOW that not staggering the intake ports does not cause a lean condition on one bank of the vr6 motor, at part throttle, peak power, under the curve, etc.. Therefore im going to assume they are getting equal volume, psi, velocity, whatever you want to address. So id like to see some proof that this actually makes any sort of difference, just for my research sake. Is that a problem? If you did it to be "different and cool", just say that and the discussion is over.. As of now you have no concrete proof that it would change any sort of dynamics of air flow in a pressurized environment.

[TweetsS4Estate]

Cool shit? not in my opinion, i leave that for the show car people. Since you mentioned velocity as well, i dont think that will change as well. I see a full throttle setup with xx psi pushing against the intake valves exactly the same whether or not you equalized the runner length. Im all about function, not to mention VW didnt stagger the intake manifold from the factory.. I didnt say you need my permission so just relax.. I understand there is an area of the curve under peak hp, i dont think that area will be changed by those staggered stacks at full throttle either. I know quite a bit about all this silly car stuff. Ill stick to my opinion until you prove me wrong some how, i just dont see that happening at all. It's a educated debate here, so i dont know why you're getting all defensive. As of now we KNOW that not staggering the intake ports does not cause a lean condition on one bank of the vr6 motor, at part throttle, peak power, under the curve, etc.. Therefore im going to assume they are getting equal volume, psi, velocity, whatever you want to address. So id like to see some proof that this actually makes any sort of difference, just for my research sake. Is that a problem? If you did it to be "different and cool", just say that and the discussion is over.. As of now you have no concrete proof that it would change any sort of dynamics of air flow in a pressurized environment.

That hydro/static engineering degree is really paying off huh?.. oh wait you don't have one lol. Though you have a lot of experience and you are probably correct in most of what you are saying, I hope this car makes more power with a superior power/torque curve. I must agree that with forced induction you need to be more concerned with the pull and not the push of air, a small air box or MAF would be more detrimental to keeping CFM, and velocity on par. Though velocity is not to be underestimated. The truth of it all is, to do a job correctly you must have a good idea of the whole setup. for example on my build I started with what I thought was a large restriction, my heads. I had them CNC ported and pollished then they were flow benched. The flow bench gave me a good idea to see what diameter my intake mani should be and how long I would want to make the runners, what the proper turbo would be if I wanted spool at X RPM. from getting all of that figured out I could get a good idea what cams I should run (ultimately it came down to contacting CAT cams. They helped me out immensely). I think that there is no such thing as over engineering, but the argument against that is at what cost do you say it is too much to invest for too little gain. I think if this does just benifit mostly on part throttle, then I say there is no loss. Isn't he trying to make this a DD? wouldn't that be something good to achieve.
Another thing the point you made about VW not making them equal length from the factory doesn't seem sound. I think boosting makes their design irrelevant....

Just my thoughts. To sum what I'm saying.. I hope his dyno proves you wrong NYC just out of spite because of your experience backed quasi-arrogance.

No one can dispute the fact of how impressive the workmanship is. even if there is no trade off, his intake will still look better!

[solowb5.1]

and maybe tweets last statement would hold true if the VRs came boosted, but they don't. Again VW didn't make them that way. They did utilize equal length runner(I believe) and also varying length and plenum on the 24vs. Also the Euro vr6 uses a larger plenum which shows gains on N/A.

The only thing this manifold is going to do is make your axels snap even easier than the others that already have by giving you better throttle response with a higher instant tq over the already torquey monster the vr6 is. Oh and the faster spool. So that means it won't be a failure, but not something someone is going to pick over the 'norm' I/M. What usually causes unequal flow is the plenum design/angles and tb location/angle. That is why ITBs are superior and not the staggered stacks which is trying to do the same thing. If you wanted that then you should have used ITBs.

I'm almost positive that people have done equal on both sides. Go to vortex and talk to some of the vr gurus and you will find out very quickly.

Again this isn't a failed design just not one that is superior to anything.

[Big Boost]

Cool shit? not in my opinion, i leave that for the show car people. Since you mentioned velocity as well, i dont think that will change as well. I see a full throttle setup with xx psi pushing against the intake valves exactly the same whether or not you equalized the runner length. Im all about function, not to mention VW didnt stagger the intake manifold from the factory.. I didnt say you need my permission so just relax.. I understand there is an area of the curve under peak hp, i dont think that area will be changed by those staggered stacks at full throttle either. I know quite a bit about all this silly car stuff. Ill stick to my opinion until you prove me wrong some how, i just dont see that happening at all. It's a educated debate here, so i dont know why you're getting all defensive. As of now we KNOW that not staggering the intake ports does not cause a lean condition on one bank of the vr6 motor, at part throttle, peak power, under the curve, etc.. Therefore im going to assume they are getting equal volume, psi, velocity, whatever you want to address. So id like to see some proof that this actually makes any sort of difference, just for my research sake. Is that a problem? If you did it to be "different and cool", just say that and the discussion is over.. As of now you have no concrete proof that it would change any sort of dynamics of air flow in a pressurized environment.

WOW! Here's a side note for you. Your opinion doesn't matter. Factual information does. If you have proof of your opinion, then it is a fact and thus can help me in my goal. If not, it's speculation or a theory. I'm sticking to my theory and I hope to prove to MYSELF that I was right.


That manifold is very nice, dont need the stacks for the offset in my opinion. Maybe it would help for part throttle low boost situations, but when that manifold/stacks/head ports are pressurized with 30+psi, those stacks wont make a damn difference.

With comments like that above, who's getting defensive? If I recall, you were the first one to say that this design "won't make a damn difference." Maybe if you weren't so "offensive" with you opinions I wouldn't have to defend myself. It's not that serious, if my efforts succeed or fail then I have provided useful info for others to use. Besides, all you have done is continue to offer your opinion about this design. Do you have proof that it won't work? You also seem to be the only one constantly saying "I want proof!" I don't feel the need to prove to you anything. You seem to be the only one taking this personally. Again, it's not that serious. If any Fluid dynamics and/or current engineers who have a degree related to this matter, please chime in. I would appreciate your help because I think I'm on to something. Yes, the manifold looks great and I personally think its cool, but I wanted it done for a reason. Once the whole car is together you will see my point. Until then.....


and maybe tweets last statement would hold true if the VRs came boosted, but they don't. Again VW didn't make them that way. They did utilize equal length runner(I believe) and also varying length and plenum on the 24vs. Also the Euro vr6 uses a larger plenum which shows gains on N/A.

The only thing this manifold is going to do is make your axels snap even easier than the others that already have by giving you better throttle response with a higher instant tq over the already torquey monster the vr6 is. Oh and the faster spool. So that means it won't be a failure, but not something someone is going to pick over the 'norm' I/M. What usually causes unequal flow is the plenum design/angles and tb location/angle. That is why ITBs are superior and not the staggered stacks which is trying to do the same thing. If you wanted that then you should have used ITBs.

I'm almost positive that people have done equal on both sides. Go to vortex and talk to some of the vr gurus and you will find out very quickly.

Again this isn't a failed design just not one that is superior to anything.

You are correct that VW did use equal length runners from the factory. On the MK3 12V's they used an equal length intake manifold and on the MK4's they made up the difference with the camshafts instead of equal length runners. As far as this being done before, I've asked if anyone has done it, please show me because I have not seen it and I have searched. It can't be done on Golf/Jetta because there is NO room behind the radiator and that's why everyone uses the SP style intakes. I've been on Vortex and I have not found any set up like this especially longitudinally mounted VR6's. As for your comment, I never said my intake was superior to others. I said it will help equalize both sides of the intake/exhaust equation. Here's a really good observation I made. When USP switched over to an equal length twin scroll manifold, they haven't hit 9's since then. Yes, their trap speed is higher, but again no 9's. Let's see here.....they had an unequal length intake manifold and an unequal length turbo manifold. I'm willing to bet that if they either went back to the log style turbo manifold everything would return to it's previous time. Better yet, I'm willing to bet you an ice cold beer that if they switched to an equal length intake that they would be even faster in both ET and trap speed. I'm not an engineer but I'm using my 20 years of racing practical experience with this project.

As far as snapping axles, if I snap billet ones then I'm just up shits creek.

I probably will never be faster than Justin's car as he has a 24V versus my 12V. That's not my point of this build to be faster than any one person and I want to enjoy this car with a wide power band. I know this is a public forum, but unless someone can prove to me your opinion is a fact and this set up won't work...we will continue to stand on opposite sides of the fence.

[NYCVR6]

Im done with this. Let's just see how it works out.

[Big Boost]

Cool. Let's be gentlemen about this. This is meant to help each other out and not to direct any negative opinions on anyones builds. I will say this, I guess that this would've eliminated any doubts on the subject. Back in the late 90's when I was big into Nissans, I had Jon build a short runner intake manifold for my SR20 with radiased inlets on the floor. I enjoyed it for awhile then I had the bright idea to have raised air horns inside the plenum. I didn't know what length they should be so in 2002 I contacted Mike Kojima who was working for Nissan Motorsports as an engineer. He and I were both on SR20DEFORUMS.COM. He saw what I was doing with the first manifold and thought it was cool and innovative. He wanted to help me so he literally gave me the correct dimensions from the air horn to the inlet valves plus the cubic volume needed for the plenum and that's what the second design was based on. He taught me about sound waves and harmonics especially in the 3rd order. Yes, there were thermo and fluid dynamic equations involved, but he and Evan Griffey (editor of Turbo Magazine) assisted me tremendously in understanding those concepts. I relayed the info to Jon and he built it accordingly. I rented a dyno for a full day and I dynoed the factory manifold, the first short runner and the new design. Base WHP at 15psi was 272hp/260ft lb. First short runner manifold was 305/275. The new design put down 322/280. All runs were at 15psi on a T3/T4 turbo. This information and everything I learned since then is what I'm applying to this build.

[nefkntym]

That's pretty bad ass. I think your manny is going to be quite revealing. Similar to you, I came from the DSM community and I experienced some air delivery issues along the way to 500awhp here at 6600 ft, I have high hopes for your intake. At any rate, when I saw pictures of your manny, the first thing I thought of was how much AMS's VSR intake manifold really shook things up. Now they even surpassed that with their new F1i manny. So, If anyone is familiar with Mitsu's, you know those manifolds speak for themselves.

Congrats and good luck. Looking forward to seeing your whole build completed.

[Big Boost]

That's pretty bad ass. I think your manny is going to be quite revealing. Similar to you, I came from the DSM community and I experienced some air delivery issues along the way to 500awhp here at 6600 ft, I have high hopes for your intake. At any rate, when I saw pictures of your manny, the first thing I thought of was how much AMS's VSR intake manifold really shook things up. Now they even surpassed that with their new F1i manny. So, If anyone is familiar with Mitsu's you know those manifolds speak for themselves.

Congrats and good luck. Looking forward to seeing your whole build completed.

Thanks, I appreciate it.

[Wizard-of-OD]

Sorry for replying to this late as I have read most of the replies and views/opinions.

Where the 24V VR6 motor is concerned there is a little thing called camshaft compensation and where a turbo motor is concerned the air isnt staggered exiting the port so why stagger it entering the port? Its all about who you talk to as Justin said and people have made power on both. Unfortunately no one is going to put in the time , energy OR funds to make a manifold in both configurations just for the sake of winning an argument.

How is everyone's swap (or lack thereof) coming along?

[Big Boost]

Sorry for replying to this late as I have read most of the replies and views/opinions.

Where the 24V VR6 motor is concerned there is a little thing called camshaft compensation and where a turbo motor is concerned the air isnt staggered exiting the port so why stagger it entering the port? Its all about who you talk to as Justin said and people have made power on both. Unfortunately no one is going to put in the time , energy OR funds to make a manifold in both configurations just for the sake of winning an argument.

How is everyone's swap (or lack thereof) coming along?

Regarding the ODB1 12V, it is staggered on both sides and is not compensated with the cams. This why both intake and turbo manifolds will be in the inverse of each other on my set up.

[Wizard-of-OD]

I am well aware of staggered vs non staggered. Foffa is the guy who brought all of this to our attention years ago.

I am eager to see what you come up with but bare in mind Justin had one of the most powerful 12V's in the world for a very long time.

[NYEuroTuner]

How is everyone's swap coming along?

[:D] Vroom Vroom

[AudiSportB5S4]

Will any of these cars be up and running for the track season before WF? I want to make a trip down to e-town one night, and I'd love to go when another S4 will be there... Especially a VR6 S4 !!

[Big Boost]

I am well aware of staggered vs non staggered. Foffa is the guy who brought all of this to our attention years ago.

I am eager to see what you come up with but bare in mind Justin had one of the most powerful 12V's in the world for a very long time.

There's no doubt to the power Justin made, there's no denying that. I'm just saying that what if his power band could be improved with the equal length design?

I have never have heard of Foffa until you mentioned him. I just searched his name and read over 14 pages of posts on Vortex. I read what his thoughts were and his seem to be in line with my thinking. There was good info on both sides of the debate. Everyone over there agreed to disagree too! LOL.

Now, again for the very last time, has anyone done any testing on both an equal length intake AND equal length turbo manifold on a 12V VR6 and recorded either a net gain or loss? Stop thinking of just the intake side, and take a second to look at the exhaust side. Are the exhaust pulses going to expel the same volume and/or the same velocity if the ports are not equal in length and shape? Now think about the intake side and combine the thought process. See where I'm getting at?

[solowb5.1]

So what's your runner lengths on both sides and why did you choose them?

[MLJS4]

starting my build [:D] issam is the shit

[NYEuroTuner]

starting my build [:D] issam is the shit

Congrats. [up]


Welcome..

http://i101.photobucket.com/albums/m58/Enviousvw/darth-vader.jpg

[nefkntym]

Congrats. [up]


Welcome..

http://i101.photobucket.com/albums/m58/Enviousvw/darth-vader.jpg

lol[:D]

[Das General]

starting my build [:D] issam is the shit


I thought you were building a single setup?

[Matador]

This is exactly what i said.. with my part throttle and low boost situations compare to full throttle/high boost (pressurized) situations. You just made it sound so much more scientific. Like i said, we arent talking individual tb's on a NA setup, we are talking a completely pressurized system mani, stacks and head ports. Dont tell me there is a difference in the VOLUME of air if you dont have those stacks evening out the port stagger, im not going to buy that. It's simple fluid dynamics. Regardless, it looks damn pretty, whether it works or not, id need serious proof. We've had 850whp 12v vr6's already from my group of friends, and not one has ever utilized staggered velocity stacks. We have one car coming up that WILL and i promise, make 1000+whp without those staggered stacks. Im just not a firm believer yet, show me some data or numbers to prove this.

Hahah! Yeah, I was just reinforcing what you were saying, not trying to come with a different point of view. If you're just going for top mad powaz, then staggered/unstaggered is a wash. [:p]

[Wizard-of-OD]

Now, again for the very last time, has anyone done any testing on both an equal length intake AND equal length turbo manifold on a 12V VR6 and recorded either a net gain or loss? Stop thinking of just the intake side, and take a second to look at the exhaust side. Are the exhaust pulses going to expel the same volume and/or the same velocity if the ports are not equal in length and shape? Now think about the intake side and combine the thought process. See where I'm getting at?
I think the only way to see an answer to this would be the dyno test before and after.
I can contribute wagner manifolds to the cause if you wish.

[MLJS4]

Congrats. [up]


Welcome..

http://i101.photobucket.com/albums/m58/Enviousvw/darth-vader.jpg

lmaooooo thanks
are you going to waterfest?

[MLJS4]

isnt that intake manifold only for n/a use

[Lyonnel]

Hello everyone, I'm Lyonnel and I live in France.
It's hard for me to understand everything, but I try. Because I'm french lol
My project, I have an Audi A4 B5 1.8T Quattro, and I bought an Audi TT 3.2 engine (VR6 24V) + a gearbox of Audi B5 S4 + the comple rear of the B5 RS4.
I am trying to set up the project, but my problem starts with accessories for fixing the engine in the car.
I saw in the first page that can be used OEM parts, engine mount brackets, adapter plate for gearbox.
Someone just gave me more info for OEM items and good price?
Thank you for your help.
Lyonnel

[NYEuroTuner]

Hello everyone, I'm Lyonnel and I live in France.
It's hard for me to understand everything, but I try. Because I'm french lol
My project, I have an Audi A4 B5 1.8T Quattro, and I bought an Audi TT 3.2 engine (VR6 24V) + a gearbox of Audi B5 S4 + the comple rear of the B5 RS4.
I am trying to set up the project, but my problem starts with accessories for fixing the engine in the car.
I saw in the first page that can be used OEM parts, engine mount brackets, adapter plate for gearbox.
Someone just gave me more info for OEM items and good price?
Thank you for your help.
Lyonnel

Call issam, he'll def hook you up. [up] Issam supplied me with all my parts and is also doing my custom harness for the car. He's a Good "malaka" to do business with lol [;)]

USA: 510.275.4775
CANADA: 613.867.8667
AIM: issamabed
E-mail: [email protected]
Skype: issam_abed


http://inaengineering.com/

[nefkntym]

I think the adaptor plate is from the T5 transporter. Don't quote me on that though.

[TweetsS4Estate]

I think it is a porsche caynne plate!

[nefkntym]

That's a good possibility too! :)

Actually I think awd version of the vr6 transporter uses synchro/4motion.

[Lyonnel]

Oki thanks all... I will try.
I know that the engine mount from the VW Passat VR5 can give me just a little solution. But hard to find

[solowb5.1]

I think you both are wrong, but I'm keeping my opinion on that one to myself.

[nefkntym]

Why, the guys lives in France. Obviously it would be more than cheaper for him to buy it locally.

[Lyonnel]

Yes of course. If I can find some pieces in France or Germany it's better for me.

[Wizard-of-OD]

Why, the guys lives in France. Obviously it would be more than cheaper for him to buy it locally.
NO IT WONT
We get cheaper pricing because we buy in bulk !

Did the dealership in France create the swap? Seriously if half of you think I or Javad is becoming an overnight millionare from this swap you could not be more wrong. Whats so hard about ordering the parts from us? I will tell you we make a wopping $12 on the adapter plates after importation cost and inflation.
Who wants to buy me a quiznos sandwhich?

[nefkntym]

NO IT WONT
We get cheaper pricing because we buy in bulk !

Did the dealership in France create the swap? Seriously if half of you think I or Javad is becoming an overnight millionare from this swap you could not be more wrong. Whats so hard about ordering the parts from us? I will tell you we make a wopping $12 on the adapter plates after importation cost and inflation.
Who wants to buy me a quiznos sandwhich?

Fair enough, sorry for stepping on your toes.

[NYEuroTuner]

NO IT WONT

Who wants to buy me a quiznos sandwhich?

Quiznos ? !?!?!?! Blasphemy!!!

This is what you should be eating malaka..lol

http://www.rainbowpizza.com/new_ordering/images/GYROS%20SANDWICH.jpg




Also, nefkntym, got your text brotha, I squashed my fones keyboard so cant reply to anyone..lol Will get yet another new fone from tmobile [headbang]

[solowb5.1]

Shit more like some Penn Station bc it kills that nasty quiznos shit

[Sigma 3]

Who wants to buy me a quiznos sandwhich?

I will buy you 2 if you will call a brotha back!

[Big Boost]

http://i39.tinypic.com/s3kjd3.jpg

http://i1026.photobucket.com/albums/y325/robbie40/VR6%20Turbo%20Conversion/IMG_9946.jpg?t=1272488902

Hm-m, now there's two of us with the same idea. Actually, that makes three because someone else already posted on the gains seen on a dyno with the equal length set up. All three of us can't be crazy!

[sCeRaXn]

I just wanted to give my opinion on the equal length runners on the vr6 IM. IMO its definitely a good design that will help equalize flow across all cylinders. This might not make a huge difference in power or tq, but it insures that each combustion chamber will have the exact same amount of flow, thus the same release of energy once combustion occurs. You guys have to remember that volume and velocity arent the only factors in filling the cc. With staggered runners on a boosted motor you might get the same volume and initial velocity, but the velocity throughout the valve event will be different between the cylinder with different runner lengths. This means different amounts of time and velocities at which the volume of air is concentrated within the quench area. Like i said it might not make much more power, but it will equalize volume, velocity, and other flow characteristics throughout all cylinders.

As far as velocity stacks go on a boosted motor, i would agree with the popular opinion(they dont work) if it wasnt for one thing....valve events. When the valve is open at the top of its lift the stacks arent doing much. When the valve closes the pressure at the back of the valve increases and even tries to back up because the same volume is trying to come in yet the velocity has stopped(reverb). Once in opens again the initial high pressure from the back of the valve bursts into the cc leaving a low pressure area behind it...this is where the stacks come into play. The increased velocity caused by the stacks will fill that low pressure area quicker than no stacks which evens the flow(volume and velocity) into the cylinder. Once again, it might not make much more power, but anything that increases the effeciency of the motor means it has to work less for that power and puts less stress on other parts in the process.

It will work either way, i just see the stacks being more effecient in certain conditions.

Edit: The only drawback i see from this design is the fact that each pulce of fuel will hit the cc at different times and atomize differently between cylinders. If you could move the injectors on the extended cylinder further out to equal the other cylinders then youll increase the effeciency even more, but this would require the use of two seperate fuel rails which would probably have to be custom machined. It could be compensated for if you were using an ecu that allowd ICT as well.

[Big Boost]

You just saved me from typing a similar explanation. (JK!!) What occurs during the exhaust valve events? Wouldn't an equal length turbo manifold reduce back pressure in conjunction with the equal length intake manifold? Also, wouldn't that help power production and provide a smoother hp and torque curve?

[sCeRaXn]

Well it isnt really about reducing backpressure, its all about reaching a 1:1 pressure ratio between the intake and exhaust. Having equal length intake and exhaust manifolds will definitely help things, but there are other parts like cams, valve design and size, how much the head flows, etc that play a major role in reaching 1:1 as well. Many times when you see a pro drag motor it looks like they have two egt's on each cylinder, but one of them is actually a pressure sensor so that they can monitor the pressure differential across the heads. This is an often overlooked yet critical aspect of making reliable power.

[MLJS4]

I thought you were building a single setup?

i was but i changed my mind i wanna play with a real motor :)
here it was
http://i389.photobucket.com/albums/oo339/marklucaj/IMG00194.jpg
now
http://i389.photobucket.com/albums/oo339/marklucaj/IMG00065.jpg

[NYEuroTuner]

i was but i changed my mind i wanna play with a real motor :)
here it was


I would be carefull, some get pretty touchy around here, that might bring out the old VR6 vs 2.7tt argument.. We dont need that drama again.lol

Glad to see you've gone VR6 [up], but lets not knock the 2.7.. [;)]

[MLJS4]

I would be carefull, some get pretty touchy around here, that might bring out the old VR6 vs 2.7tt argument.. We dont need that drama again.lol

Glad to see you've gone VR6 [up], but lets not knock the 2.7.. [;)]

lmaooooooooo, dont get me wrong nothings wrongs with the 2.7 i like that motor a lot just when your working 62 hours a week and something break and is the biggest whore to work on and always gottta worry about something isnt worth it, my brothers been doing vr6s for 6 years now so lol he pushed me into it even more by saying, hahah go pull your motor to changed a bolt stupid shit like that lol, lol thanks my man...i got a extra vr6 motor i gottta get rid of

[solowb5.1]

So still won't answer my question on the runner lengths and why you chose them? Even with all your arguing. Hum...

[Big Boost]

Well, I was going to but it would just lead to more "debating". Besides, many of you who posted about it don't think it's going to work anyway. Just wait for the results.

[solowb5.1]

I asked that bc I wanted to see if it was on to what had been suggested to me from a big vr6 builder. You can just pm me if you'd like.

[URHank]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wzCHJv_gblc[/

Another one breathes life ..... The customer has a 5 year old that loves Superman if you were wondering :)

[solowb5.1]

very nice.

[NYCVR6]

Nice Hank! Is that motor misfiring? Sounds like it's stuttering a bit on the rev..

[solowb5.1]

I was going to ask the same, but asking if you've gotten the cold start settings dialed in yet? or something to that extent. It's been awhile since I've had a IIc.

[Lyonnel]

It's very beautiful with the velocity stacks... Great job

[URHank]

that was literally the first start... It is running a base map from 034, but we are running 75lb injectors instead of 1000cc injectors. It was just ubber lean.

We will hook up coolant and then dial it in for some booooooost :)

[Wizard-of-OD]

Nice work Hank!

[Korben007]

now thats the chassis the motor belongs in!

[Lyonnel]

There will soon be an Audi A4 1.8T Quattro B5 R32 Turbo engine with France thanks to you.
I have the gearbox of Audi B5 S4, the complet differencial rear of an Audi B5 RS4 and I engine from an Audi TT 3.2 (same as the Golf MK5 R32).
I think putting the VR6 12v crankshaft which has a stroke of 90.3 mm which is below the stroke R32. A difference of 5.6 mm. So I spend a R30 Turbo engine as they did on the www.ame-racing.de (R30 turbo).
On Youtube there are videos of this engine on a Polo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ilo-ObwvwTU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=REoT4qB4CkQ
I know what you thought, because I have opinions yes or no?
I hope the results come in as you

I have a friend who bought a Golf2 R32 DSG 4Motion BiTurbo in Germany that works very well, and is surprised with the original ecu R32.
We can see this car on youtube, in 2008 King Of Europe
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fZXwWTanIec
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kv7nkfuBkkc
But also later in the Run on an island where I come from.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E5cPHV6XYQU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tbB9qYQnycw

So I also think using the original ECU to control my motor and advances variables.

[MisterSorin]

I have a question, how much will it cost me to swap a r32 motor or a 3.6 passat motor in my s4 ? And how could I fit one in ? Can I go to biturbo with it ? I think this will be a future project for me......

[solowb5.1]

Here is your answer since you're obviously not that interested to where you'd take the time to read....

Single turbo r32 is roughly 20k
twins will be 25 ballpark. probably more.

[Sigma 3]

Here is your answer since you're obviously not that interested to where you'd take the time to read....

Single turbo r32 is roughly 20k
twins will be 25 ballpark. probably more.

HMMM that seems high. Im assuming a good chunk of your number is the paying to have the work done?

[Haenszel20v]

HMMM that seems high. Im assuming a good chunk of your number is the paying to have the work done?
No, this has been covered in this thread.

[Sigma 3]

[QUOTE=URHank;5134750]I dont know if this helps anybody, but this is the list for a car we just swapped. THe car was already IIc equipt with a lot of go fast parts, but this is what it totaled to.

IIc 1700/1000
Audi 20vt coils x 6 60
92k mile obd2 vr6 125
Intermediate plate 200
Startor 034ms 425
used 75lb injectors 200
IMS fuel rail -8 95
Pushlock -10 in -6 return 135
Aluminum motor mounts 375
034ms Flywheel 425
Southbend stage 5 clutch 625
ARP head studs(used) 125
Headspacer used 125
ATP turbo mani(used) 120 4735
GT35r used 700
Coolant turbo lines pushloc 80
034ms downpipe 400
Tial 38mm gate(new 2nd hand) 200
Intercooler ebay 90
IC piping(2.5 in 3" out) 60
Summit 12" fans(2x45) 90
Radiator lines(OEM pieced) 60
Air filter K&N 50
Custom intake piping 75
Fuel labs FPR 120
044 fuel pump 225
Tial BOV 50mm used 120
new plug wires 130
Intake manifold(custom) 525

Total 7650 with another 2500 in labor to assemble so 10,150 for a 500whp car.

That is everything really down to plug wires and turbos. This is all retail prices from retailers like 034ms for things like IM's downpipes, exc. Alot of the parts were bought used, and this helped the price a bit... This is what it would cost for the average person doing the swap.

Obviously, I have done a bit of fabrication in the past, and my personal car is going to be completed for under 4 grand at a 500whp state. Thats with my own labor, my own parts and purchasing the parts that make sense to, ie things that would cost me more to do than buy.

[solowb5.1]

Well he said r32 not a garbage find of a 12v.

[Sigma 3]

No, this has been covered in this thread.
I know thats where I got the $ figure.

[x610326]

OK guys I have very important question. I want to do VR6 24V swap into 2001 s4 b5 and the two things i want to know what would be the list of parts that i will need and will I be able to pass emission test in my state ILLINOIS??? need advise.

[Papa Stone]

OK guys I have very important question. I want to do VR6 24V swap into 2001 s4 b5 and the two things i want to know what would be the list of parts that i will need and will I be able to pass emission test in my state ILLINOIS??? need advise.

Not to be a ASS BUT,
If you read the topic, is answered on it..

[Big Boost]

Here's another update. The turbo manifold is almost finished. The wastegate flanges have to be welded on and it's complete. Next up is the 4" downpipe and 3.5" exhaust followed by the air to water intercooler tanks and aluminum piping. I estimate to having less than 1.75' of IC piping! The alternator still needs to be relocated and the area where the false firewall used to be needs to be smoothed out. The built engine is almost ready to install so other than that, I'm still chuggin' along!

http://i1026.photobucket.com/albums/y325/robbie40/VR6%20Turbo%20Conversion/DSC04058.jpg?t=1274146715

http://i1026.photobucket.com/albums/y325/robbie40/VR6%20Turbo%20Conversion/IMG_0208.jpg?t=1274146585

http://i1026.photobucket.com/albums/y325/robbie40/VR6%20Turbo%20Conversion/IMG_0219.jpg?t=1274146346

The core support is all but gone. In its place will be a support structure for an aluminum radiator and a full size heat exchanger. The areas around the headlights will be radiused for a more finished look. There's still a great deal of work that needs to be done, but it will be worth it.

[Sigma 3]

It looks great! From this angle it looks as if the IC piping will sit very close to the hood. MOAR pics! Manifolds [up]

[Papa Stone]

You are going Water to Air I/C??

[Big Boost]

It looks great? from this angle it looks as if the IC piping will sit very close to the hood. How much room do you have? MOAR pics. Manifolds [up]

Actually, from the discharge flange to the top of the hood is over 5". That's more than enough room for a smooth radius 3" aluminum pipe to enter the A/W intercooler.

[galvan11]

I can only imagine how much a shop would bill you for labor on this kinda build.

[Big Boost]

I can only imagine how much a shop would bill you for labor on this kinda build.

See the complete story.

http://www.audizine.com/forum/showthread.php?364704-Big-Boost-s-VR6-BAT-Build!

[solowb5.1]

That's beautiful man

[Big Boost]

Thanks man. Now do you see what I was kinda getting at before? You had to see the WHOLE equation before anyone knocked the idea. Again, thanks...it's appreciated! Get your Avant on the road and show me how it's done!

[URHank]

Nice fabrication and thought into the project.

[galvan11]

See the complete story.

http://www.audizine.com/forum/showthread.php?364704-Big-Boost-s-VR6-BAT-Build!


Right,for all of us who dont have fab gods as friends, how much labor would a would be roughly looking at?

Im thinking it would be cheaper to ship a car to a known shop that has done this build, than to a local shop who hasnt attempted this.

[solowb5.1]

Only a few more weeks left of school :) Then plan to have it knocked out in a couple weeks. I see the beauty part for sure. I'm just going off of people that I've spoke with that are said to be very knowledgable on vr6s and what is good, bad, and not necassary. Yours probably falls into not necessary( in the fact of comparing it to a sri and tubular manifold), but your car will be at it's highest eff. which I'm sure that's what you were wanting to achive. Plus I'm sure it's going to make your setup a lot easier to tune from it having less variables.

We'll all be waiting patiently to see what it does :beer:

[Big Boost]

Only a few more weeks left of school :) Then plan to have it knocked out in a couple weeks. I see the beauty part for sure. I'm just going off of people that I've spoke with that are said to be very knowledgable on vr6s and what is good, bad, and not necassary. Yours probably falls into not necessary( in the fact of comparing it to a sri and tubular manifold), but your car will be at it's highest eff. which I'm sure that's what you were wanting to achive. Plus I'm sure it's going to make your setup a lot easier to tune from it having less variables.

We'll all be waiting patiently to see what it does :beer:

You can't really say it's not necessary due to my original question I posted weeks ago. Has anyone built BOTH an equal length intake and equal length turbo manifold for a FI VR6 and documented the results? Everyone that I talked to didn't know of any such set up. That's what set this whole project in motion. No one has done it before to my knowledge, so I hope to be the first. Knowledge can be learned or experienced, so this will be a new experience (good or bad) that everyone can learn from.

http://beertalking.files.wordpress.com/2008/10/miller.jpg

Here's a cold one for you!

[solowb5.1]

Ya I knew you'd take it that way bc I knew I didn't explain myself well lol I wasn't questioning it like that....

[Big Boost]

Ya I knew you'd take it that way bc I knew I didn't explain myself well lol I wasn't questioning it like that....

Naw, I didn't take it the way you thought. Just stating a point in my quiet voice. It's all good.

[Big Boost]

Update.

http://i1026.photobucket.com/albums/y325/robbie40/VR6%20Turbo%20Conversion/IMG_0309.jpg?t=1274584190

http://i1026.photobucket.com/albums/y325/robbie40/VR6%20Turbo%20Conversion/IMG_0282.jpg?t=1274562867

[Sales@RAI]

Right,for all of us who dont have fab gods as friends, how much labor would a would be roughly looking at?

Im thinking it would be cheaper to ship a car to a known shop that has done this build, than to a local shop who hasnt attempted this.

At least $15k, I'd say more like $20k unless you have the means to do things yourself

[S4M3]

I have a 12v vr6 swap for sale with everything included 800 whp + setup all parts are brand new !! less then 10 k

[Jim?]

I have a 12v vr6 swap for sale with everything included 800 whp + setup all parts are brand new !! less then 10 k

motor only or completed swap?

[galvan11]

At least $15k, I'd say more like $20k unless you have the means to do things yourself

Interesting, 30k bill give or take including everything?

[solowb5.1]

So Big Boost you have cylinder 1-2-3 going to one bank and 4-5-6 to the other bank on the exhaust manifold?

[Big Boost]

Yep.

[solowb5.1]

You know that a twin scroll is supposed to merge each cylinder that is firing at the same time.

[Haenszel20v]

You know that a twin scroll is supposed to merge each cylinder that is firing at the same time.

only 1 cylinder fires at a time. I'm not sure what is so hard to understand that a twin scroll is based off of firing order, in which this is correct.

[Big Boost]

So 12v vr6 firing order is 123, 456? If not. You didn't make a twin scroll for 250 bucks


You know that a twin scroll is supposed to merge each cylinder that is firing at the same time.

May I ask how you positioned your exhaust runners to each flange? Above you stated awhile ago that the firing order was 123-456. The correct firing order is 1-5-3-6-2-4 for the 12V and 24V. The runners are supposed to be divided 1,2,3 and 4,5,6. Just look at the factory exhaust downpipe or S2 Fabrications stainless exhaust header for a reference.

[Haenszel20v]

Cylinder # - - - 1 - 5 - 3 - 6 - 2 - 4
Flange side - - - 1 - 2 - 1 - 2 - 1 - 2

[solowb5.1]

If I did I didn't mean to say that or I was reffering to yours. What hanzel just posted is how it should be. That's how I have mine positioned; 1-3-5/2-4-6

[Haenszel20v]

If I did I didn't mean to say that or I was reffering to yours. What hanzel just posted is how it should be. That's how I have mine positioned; 1-3-5/2-4-6
firing order, or cylinder order?

I think you are slightly confused on the design idea.

[Big Boost]

So Big Boost you have cylinder 1-2-3 going to one bank and 4-5-6 to the other bank on the exhaust manifold?


You know that a twin scroll is supposed to merge each cylinder that is firing at the same time.


If I did I didn't mean to say that or I was reffering to yours. What hanzel just posted is how it should be. That's how I have mine positioned; 1-3-5/2-4-6

Actually you were referring to mine. Please don't back pedal. Look, we are here to help one another out or so I thought. You tried to "school" me to let me know my manifold design was wrong on a public forum, but you were the one who is wrong. I can take criticism both positive and negative, but when you consistently come at me with negative opinions and not factual info, I get defensive.

Like I said before, I and others are here to help out. If you combined cylinders 1,3,5/2,4,6 the exhaust pulses on the twin scroll turbo will not be in balance due to the firing order. What Haenszel20v is referring to is the "beat" of the exhaust system to make sure the pulses spin each scroll of the turbine equally.

Cylinder # - - - 1 - 5 - 3 - 6 - 2 - 4
Flange side - - - 1 - 2 - 1 - 2 - 1 - 2

This is the correct orientation as he typed it above. If you merged 1,3,5 and 2,4,6 they will receive equal flow but not the correct pulse beat to ensure the turbine wheel spins with the correct balance. If your turbo was a single T4 flange unit, there wouldn't be a problem. Imagine this, if someone were to consistently blow on a pinwheel it would spin consistently. Now imagine blowing on it with short even pulses or worse blowing on it with pauses inbetween. Consider what that would to your performance.

[Haenszel20v]

With 1,3,5, 2,4,6 together you're going to get this.

Cylinder firing # - 1 - 5 - 3 - 6 - 2 - 4
Flange side - 1 - 1- 1- 2- 2- 2

Actually only utilizing half of the turbine at a time. This is hardly beneficial, and in fact highly detrimental. At this point if you have the manifold already built, it'd be better to combine the runners and run a regular open t4 than keeping it this way.

[loudbay]

Quick Question... What about using readily available C2 software, stock VR6 harness, and running a custom gauge panel? VR6s are swapped all around the VW world, and not very many are going full standalone. If we're not worried about check engine lights, what's stopping a4 guys from doing this?

Cheers,
Matt

[Sigma 3]

Quick Question... What about using readily available C2 software, stock VR6 harness, and running a custom gauge panel? VR6s are swapped all around the VW world, and not very many are going full standalone. If we're not worried about check engine lights, what's stopping a4 guys from doing this?

Cheers,
Matt

I would love to do this. Im not sure about the custom guage panel. Are you suggesting using the cluster out of a vw, or somthing like the motec or the stack? It would be nice to have more options.

[wdbdy2000s4]

I would love to do this. Im not sure about the custom guage panel. Are you suggesting using the cluster out of a vw, or somthing like the motec or the stack? It would be nice to have more options.
You can repin the S4 harness to match up with a VR and still run the stock audi guages, pass emissions, etc....It's been done.

[Sigma 3]

So I am assuming I can get my A4 harness repined to match? My problem is my car runs Me5 ( I think. Its a 98) I dont think my ECU will take a tune seeing that I had to send it to ECS to get the chip attached for my super charger. What about running a r32 harness and ecu set to run my guage cluster? Forgive my ignorance, I just want to understand what options are sound and have a dialog about what problems might arise. Thanks.

[NYEuroTuner]

So I am assuming I can get my A4 harness repined to match? My problem is my car runs Me5 ( I think. Its a 98) I dont think my ECU will take a tune seeing that I had to send it to ECS to get the chip attached for my super charger. What about running a r32 harness and ecu set to run my guage cluster? Forgive my ignorance, I just want to understand what options are sound and have a dialog about what problems might arise. Thanks.

Doesnt matter what year system you have, HPA just finished their custom harness system for a VR6 swap on the new VW SCIROCCO, and the new VW'S are using a completely diff/more complex computer system.

You would need the VR6 harness w/ECU and your Audi (a4/s4) Harness with ecu, and send it out to a shop able to custom splice/mesh the two to make you a custom harness.

You would want to contact Mike at ROUTE100 Euros, he has done custom harnesses before and is highly recommended.

If you dont want to get a CUSTOM harness made, you still have the option of grafting an entire wiring harness from a VR6 powered car. But you would need a complete Donor car to take all that you would need to transfer over.

[wdbdy2000s4]

You would want to contact Mike at ROUTE100 Euros, he has done custom harnesses before and is highly recommended.

I told him to make a few extras. His main issue is sourcing all of the s4 harnesses at a reasonable price.

If anyone has an extra harness they want to let go cheap then PM me.

[Sigma 3]

Doesnt matter what year system you have, HPA just finished their custom harness system for a VR6 swap on the new VW SCIROCCO, and the new VW'S are using a completely diff/more complex computer system.

You would need the VR6 harness w/ECU and your Audi (a4/s4) Harness with ecu, and send it out to a shop able to custom splice/mesh the two to make you a custom harness.

You would want to contact Mike at ROUTE100 Euros, he has done custom harnesses before and is highly recommended.

If you dont want to get a CUSTOM harness made, you still have the option of grafting an entire wiring harness from a VR6 powered car. But you would need a complete Donor car to take all that you would need to transfer over.

You have been holding out on me! I take it you did not go the other route we discussed. How is your build coming along? I have access to a donor car, right down to the guage cluster, but that seems to be more involved (on my part) than having the two harnesses spliced together. Thanks for the info guys.

[Sigma 3]

I told him to make a few extras. His main issue is sourcing all of the s4 harnesses at a reasonable price.

If anyone has an extra harness they want to let go cheap then PM me.
I bought a complete s4 because I was going to do that swap but now have other plans. I believe I have a harness. I will check when I get home.

[NYEuroTuner]

You have been holding out on me! I take it you did not go the other route we discussed. How is your build coming along? I have access to a donor car, right down to the guage cluster, but that seems to be more involved (on my part) than having the two harnesses spliced together. Thanks for the info guys.


lol Well I was originally waiting for Issam's custom harness packages he is developing, but it seems he is really bizzzy and overwhelmed and it probably wont be released for a while. Waiting for the harness and drivers side bracket for my 24v really delayed my project, and also changed the direction of my swap dramatically, originally wanted to do a OEM type swap where the car would basically function as if the S4 came with a VR6 from the manufacturer.

Meaning ODB2 port, everything would work like a stock vehicle. This project of mine has transformed from "just a swap" to BBK kits install, New suspension, custom chromoly Rollbar install, interior trim, body work was started, car and wheels were completely sanded/primed and now ready for paint. eh.. I've created a monster..lol I'm begining to think I should have just went stand alone last year and just slapped the motor in asasp...Well this is what happens when you start thinking. Now the car is being competely overhauled so to speak.

But after waiting a long time for parts, and also doing some further thinking, I've decided to go the stand alone route, unfortuantely 034 is said it would take 10-12 weeks for their complete system w/plugs, sensors, harness etc etc. I did plan on going boost much later after the swap was finished, but it seems I'll be going boost much, much sooner than I originally wanted.

And I leave for Boot camp July 26th, so my project is getting pushed till the end of the year. I'd rather wait to do things right rather than do it "half assed". I have other vehicles so having the S4 offline isnt an issue for me.

[Sigma 3]

Hmm yea I would say your plans have changed. YOu had been saying that you where going to keep it N/A for a while. If this guy is a master with a harness, what issssssss behind your decision to go stand alone? You mentioned "further thinking" please share. I do like the Idea of still being able to hook into the OBD port. I also have other vehicles, one being a soon to be finished gt 3071r a4 avant, so I am in no hurry to get the R32 lump in the sedan. being well informed is important as dont dont want to regret my choices on this build. Thanks for sharing. Wdbdy I do have a s4 harness btw.

[NYEuroTuner]

Hmm yea I would say your plans have changed. YOu had been saying that you where going to keep it N/A for a while. If this guy is a master with a harness, what issssssss behind your decision to go stand alone? You mentioned "further thinking" please share. I do like the Idea of still being able to hook into the OBD port. I also have other vehicles, one being a soon to be finished gt 3071r a4 avant, so I am in no hurry to get the R32 lump in the sedan. being well informed is important as dont dont want to regret my choices on this build. Thanks for sharing. Wdbdy I do have a s4 harness btw.

Well the cost for the custom harness and the cost of a 034 EFI are not that far from one another for starters.

And to be honest I did not want to be the "guinea pig" so to speak, I was the only one poking around about a Custom harness seeing if it could be done and got alot of mixed responses.. Waitied for something to be produced, was told summer time last year a system isin the finishing stages and would be available very soon, but I was getting no where.

Plus I am working with a budget, so after waiting for so long I have come to the conclusion that I did not want to take the chance of the custom harness initially costing X amount, but then costing more later on for whatever unforseen reason(s).

Either way I wont be able to get this car to pass California "smog" unless I Pay a little extra... So I figured what the hell. 034 is not that far from me in Cali, so tuning would be easy, and going stand alone it would give me more flexibility when I go boost in terms of really fine tuning her to perfection.

So If I have to pay a little more to get a great Already Proven engine management system, rather than take a chance with something I know nothing about (custom harnesses) and wait even longer,and then see what happens, then I'd rather go stand alone.

[wdbdy2000s4]

Well the cost for the custom harness and the cost of a 034 EFI are not that far from one another for starters.
Exactly....You're going to need the two harnesses, plus there is quite a bit of labor involved. Anyone who is making custom harnesses clearly has a lot of experience and knowledge so the labor won't exactly be cheap, unless you know someone.

If you go custom harness, you have the advantage of OBDII working, and all of the car's other feautures, but it limits the tuning options.

[skele4door]

It's actually not that difficult if you are organized and take your time. You've got to have the circuit diagram from the chassis and the engine for the years you are uing. Manufacturers tend to change things around through the years and working off of an incorrect diagram will drive you bonkers. Then make yourself a harness board so you can keep track of which connectors will need to modified, extended, deleted, or added and step through one circuit at a time. Here is a pic of one that I used for LSX into 3rd gen RX7s.

It took me a few days to do all of the research and modification on my first harness. I took good notes and could whip them out in an hour without using the harness board afterwards. BTW, if anyone is planning on doing this swap in the DFW area I'd be happy to lend a hand with the wiring since it's something I might look into doing in the future.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/9913224@N06/2328494833/in/set-72157600739031355/

[Sigma 3]

Thanks for the replies, They make sense ans I will take them under advisement. The pros of the harness for me would bu the use of the obd port. Tune wise I wanted to see if something could be done with maestro. Since I am running a tapp file in my avant I thought it would be nice to get my tune from his as well. There are other people around me running the maestro as well so I would have some support. Just an Idea. I think I will put this on the back burner until I need to make a decision.

[AudiVWTech]

Does Maestro work with the VR6 ME7 computers? I have a 2001 AFP VR6 that I am putting in my S4 tomorrow but I have yet to make a decision on the engine management. I was really hoping to use my ECU that I have for the AFP motor and just tune that ECU. Any input? I don't want to use a standalone if I don't have to.

[Big Boost]

Update.....

http://motorgeek.com/gallery/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=95821&g2_serialNumber=2

http://o2induction.com/images/Builds/Big%20boosts%20VR6%20BAT%20Build/IMG_0536a.jpg

[AudiVWTech]

I guess I'll introduce my swap. I am just in the beginning stages, so no build thread or anything. The car is a 2000 S4. The engine is a 2001 AFP motor out of a Jetta with 98k miles on it. All stock internals with ARP main studs, ARP rod bolts, and ARP head studs. Schimmel head spacer/gasket, 034 intake manifold, flywheel and starter. South Bend statge 3 clutch. Chinese exhaust manifold, and that's about it for now. I have the trans bolted into the car and the motor bolted to the trans but not mounted yet. I am going to merge the 2001 Jetta computer and harness into my S4 so that I can retain all factory ammenities such as the A/C functions and cruise control. Still undecided on the turbo, but I am thinking a T61 Blowzilla with 85 lb injectors with an E85 tune. Any comments, complaints, or suggestions are much appreciated.

http://i50.tinypic.com/4v0huo.jpg
http://i50.tinypic.com/2dtoeo0.jpg
http://i50.tinypic.com/2me93pg.jpg

[Wizard-of-OD]

Looking good guys keep it up!

[vincephan]

It looks like most of the B5 guys are getting the job done! Has there been any updates from B6 swappers though?

[AudiVWTech]

The B6 swap is the same thing. Mechanically, it should all be the same parts and information.

[AudiVWTech]

I just picked up my 6765. It's a Comp Turbo. I'll get some pics up soon of it bolted up to the manifold.